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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 6:48:47 AM | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080418/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat
SAN ANGELO, Texas - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.
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The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.
Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.
Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.
The court hearing, which continues Friday morning, disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or queued up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.
"I've tried to impose some structure to this free-for-all," said Texas District Judge Barbara Walther.
The case — one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history — presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a historic courtroom and an auditorium two blocks away that was patched into the proceedings by a grainy video feed.
The state wants to keep the children in its custody, and likely move them to foster homes while officials continue investigating abuse allegations. The state must provide evidence the children were physically or sexually abused, or are in imminent danger of abuse.
In 11 hours on Thursday, only three witnesses testified, including Voss.
As lawyers shouted, dozens of mothers sat quietly in their long cotton dresses and braided upswept hair. They were sworn in as possible witnesses at the hearing's outset, but it was not clear when they might testify.
In the satellite courtroom at City Hall, hundreds of people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible.
"I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member.
No decisions were made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and more cross-examination of Voss was likely Friday.
The children, most of whom are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. About 130 are under 4 years old, Voss said.
She said she was concerned about how the children and women followed the orders of the church's prophet, identified as jailed leader Warren Jeffs.
"The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that. If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that," Voss said.
Jeffs is currently awaiting trial in a Kingman, Ariz., jail on charges related to the promotion of underage marriages. He previously was convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in a Utah case.
The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Voss said the ranch was considered a special place, the sect's Zion.
Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch.
The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.
The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 7:41:53 AM | I saw an interview of the Texas Attorney General on TV this morning. He said that it did not matter if the young woman that called the police was real or not because of what they saw when they searched the entire town. I found that an interesting statement because in the United States a judge may only issue a search warrant when there is evidence to support the police claims that there is something illegal happening. Furthermore, the search warrant must be very specific in what the police are allowed to search for and even if they see something else that they deem illegal, they may not seize that property or expand in any way anything that is not specifically allowed by the search warrant. In other words, they are not allowed to issue search warrants to gather evidence to issue more search warrants. You would think that the reporter would have questioned that but didn’t.
I also saw some of the film today of the way that the police entered the town. They sent in SWAT teams and armored vehicles. It’s nice to know that the government has an army that is used against American citizens these days. I would think that the regular armed police would have been sufficient to do the job.
Something else that I find troubling that no one has mentioned is that Child Protective Services is not at all bound by the decisions of the court and the legal system. There are countless cases where the legal system has pronounced parents not guilty and Child Protective Services still holds on to children and still maintains that the parents are guilty without proof. Child Protective Services makes getting your own children back up to their own discretion and whims even after the court system has vindicated parents.
In the State of New Jersey about 30 years ago a young female teacher was accused of molesting young students in her classroom. Child Protective Services worked with the children using psychologists and dolls and produced films that were used to convict the woman who was in her early 20’s. The defense attorney was not allowed to question the children because they were children. The jury felt compelled to convict the woman because these were crimes against innocent children for God’s sake! At that time people were under the impression that young children cannot make up stories about such things. Now, if you don’t know, once a person is sent to prison, the appeals process is incredibly slow. Anyway, after 5 years in prison evidence became clear that at no time was the young teacher ever out of sight of other adults and she was freed but without any compensation. Isn’t it a wonderful thing that we have people that want to insure the safety of children no matter if the accused is guilty or not?
You know that Hasidic Jews don’t cut their hair either and they tend to live in tight knit communities because they cannot use mechanical devices like cars on their Sabbath day to get to temple, or so they say. I know for a FACT that they also mutilate the genitals of their male children. It seems pretty clear that they have many things in common with these other child molesters. Don’t you think that it is prudent that we also storm these communities with SWAT teams to insure the safety of children? I mean we are talking about children for God’s sake. These Jews are very different from us you know. If we do find that any children have been molested by them we should really teach them a lesson, don’t you think? Perhaps gas them and burn their bodies to teach them a lesson that America will not tolerate people like that. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 9:04:24 AM |
These men are pedophiles hiding behind religion to justify it and protect it.
It's statements like that and the people who make such claims having no proof what so ever who represent the greatest danger to society.
That's sounds so like Nazi mentality! | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 9:12:23 AM |
He said that it did not matter if the young woman that called the police was real or not because of what they saw when they searched the entire town.
If that is true then it has become a scary day in America! | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 9:12:34 AM | .
I saw an interview of the Texas Attorney General on TV this morning. He said that it did not matter if the young woman that called the police was real or not because of what they saw when they searched the entire town. I found that an interesting statement because in the United States a judge may only issue a search warrant when there is evidence to support the police claims that there is something illegal happening.
It doesn't matter if there was a call? Or... if that call were from Colorado? ha ....
With all the tech we have they knew where the call was coming from.....
I really don't like Moonies or Scientology...
If I wait until they clear out the Courthouse I could buy a couple of throw-away Cells and Snitch.
Something else that I find troubling that no one has mentioned is that Child Protective Services is not at all bound by the decisions of the court and the legal system. There are countless cases where the legal system has pronounced parents not guilty and Child Protective Services still holds on to children and still maintains that the parents are guilty without proof. Child Protective Services makes getting your own children back up to their own discretion and whims even after the court system has vindicated parents.
They are all Guilty. Has everyone forgotten the Satanic Daycares?
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 10:11:58 AM | The age of consent in Texas is 17.
If that law was broken then whoever broke it should be held accountable.
If the beliefs of the group in question are at odds with the state then they have a choice.
Either change their belief system to adhere to the law or move to Mexico where the age of consent is 12.
Child services placing 400 children in foster care is a poor solution to the problem. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 11:23:48 AM | 17456, I was curious if the age of consent in Texas could possibly be younger if some conditions were met so I did a search and found the following:
http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/legal_age_of_consent/index.shtml
Texas
• If you are 14 to 17 years of age, you will need to show your birth certificate or some license, certificate or document issued by this state or another state, the U.S. or a foreign government.(Drivers license, military ID, passport or baptismal).
• Both parties must be 18 years or older,(14-17 requires parental consent).
• Both parties must provide their social security number or state they have one.
• Both parties must provide all information as required on the application and as requested by the clerk.
• Both parties must take the oath printed on the application and sign the application in the presence of the clerk | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 12:15:30 PM | | Warmthnpassion; From what I've heard on the 'news' marriage in the traditional sense isn't something that group subscribes to which makes me question where the lable of polygamist is coming from but at any rate that's why I posted age of consent. If that group is a closed system then they may not have birth certificates or any documents for that matter. Odd, different, unusual ? Sure but there's plenty of that to go around from nambla to crack head parents and just because 'cults' in the past have earned a reputation for life threatening behavior doesn't mean that all cults must fall into that catagory. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 2:48:06 PM | You know, I never said "YAY TEXAS". I never even said what they did or how they did it was the right thing. We do not know the information that was being given to the police for these 4 years. We don't know what the order said. There is a lot they are not talking about right now becuase of the legalities. I'm sure they could have done it differently, but if you're going to blast in and take 400 children, I'm sure they had to be prepared for the worst. I never said these children are not hurt and scared and miss their mothers. I'm sure they do. What I did say was, everything I've ever heard about these cults, and I have been watching this kind of thing on shows for a lot longer than this story has been around, has shown (from past members own words) brainwashing, control, and physical and sexual abuse. How is forcing a child to marry a 50 year old man that she does not know or like and making her part of a relationship in which she is treated as a 2nd or 3rd class citizen...and using the argument that she will not get into the Celestial Kingdom or heaven at all if she does not comply and 'keep sweet'....any better than taking them out of that environment?
And you can say that the information on the interviews I've seen cannot possibly be correct because it is just a handful of people that have escaped this situation saying these things....but if it wasn't happening why would they all lie about it? How would they all even come up with the same story?
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 3:45:13 PM |
How is forcing a child to marry a 50 year old man that she does not know or like and making her part of a relationship in which she is treated as a 2nd or 3rd class citizen...and using the argument that she will not get into the Celestial Kingdom or heaven at all if she does not comply and 'keep sweet'....any better than taking them out of that environment?
It's not any better. If you or anyone else can prove to me that all 400 of these children were in imminent danger of being abused, then I would say that the authorities may have done a good job. But from what I am understanding, many of these children were not in this position, even though some may have been. So by taking a child that has not been abused and remove them from their home without cause, you have now become the abuser.
Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children.
Mississippi is the teen pregnancy capital of America. I bet if you randomly picked 400 girls under 18 you would probably find that at least 5 of them are pregnant. And I would also bet that some of them became pregnant by men over the age of 18. I could probably even find a few children that have been sexually molested by adults that do not have children. And I could definitely find some that have been physically abused. Does this mean every child in Mississippi should be taken from their parents?
I am not saying that what these people are doing is right. I am only saying that what the authorities have done is just as bad if not worse. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 4:26:17 PM |
but if it wasn't happening why would they all lie about it? How would they all even come up with the same story?
Who knows really? But I can go out at night take a picture then photoshop a ufo over my city and send it into the news and in 24 hours people all over the city will be reporting they saw it too... 
You know, I never said "YAY TEXAS". I never even said what they did or how they did it was the right thing. ~ There is a lot they are not talking about right now becuase of the legalities.
Your safe I for one believe you. Your just trying to present both sides and that's a good thing.
We do not know the information that was being given to the police for these 4 years.
I believe that's one thing that troubles me the most. It's not like an informant planted inside the mob who needs years to build up a case for laundrying money. They are talking about abuse supposedly on a grand scale something very obvious to document in a short time and take action. So, even if such a thing was happening on a limited basis then it would be wrong for the law enforcement to call it "Large scale" and if it really isn't on a large scale then wheres the need for a military style raid where only a few individuals need to be apprehended?
Well if it was so grand in scale why did it take 4 years? Furthermore, why not act upon the informants information instead of waiting to take action on an anonymous phone call, if things were so bad. Any judge worthy to hold a seat in a court would place greater importance on evidence gathered by an informant than a anonymous phone call by a caller they can't locate, let alone put on the stand to testify? Yet it was on the phone call that the raid was orgainzed. Unless of course there was none and thought a raid would help them manufacture the needed evidence?
I know if I was a Judge and the attorney general told me he got an anonymous phone call about a particular family, Church or whatever? That they were reported to be abusing children and women but couldn't provide me a witness, I'd tell him to come back when he had something more than heresay evidence.
I'm begining to believe this situation might more likely be a case of conceled discrimination? It's looking like the upper class and local towns folk in that part of Texas don't appreicate having a commuinty of people who dress differently than them, living so close by and was seeking a way to rid their community of these people. They of course couldn't just come out and say their agenda was racist they needed a tool that would shift the attention to the people they wanted removed. So, they put forward the story using words like " pologimy, compound, child abuse, spouse abuse,rape, under age marriage,etc," to capatilize an immediate neagitve mind set into the public that those people must be exactly as they describe... It's a tried and true method tested countless of times over history... The shortsighted narrow minded never see it! They just follow the crowd even if that crowd is helping to stoke the furnances of the "Final solution" | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 5:15:36 PM | Here is an excerpt from Carolyn Jessop's book:
http://www.slate.com/id/2189275
And of course some will say this was one woman's voice. Yes it is. But I don't see anything out there written by people refuting it. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 6:51:59 PM |
SimmanDahnNah
You're correct that is one woman's voice and I agree its a voice that should be heard but it's hardly the difinitive answer.
But I don't see anything out there written by people refuting it.
Now, please correct me if I'm in error but I believe some people from the opposing side have been interviewed but I'm not privvy to what they all said? Nevertheless, we can no less disregard their perspective of the situation as we can Jessop's... A one sided story is just that a one sided story it isn't truth!
Time will quickly spell out the reality if the reality isn't prevented from being told... Let's just hope it doesn't take nearly a decade like Ruby Ridge.
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 6:58:20 PM | | I saw a woman on the inside of the compound last night on Larry King Live. She gave a tour of her home and parts of the compound. I felt sorry for her, she obviously missed her children. But there was something eerie about her demeanor. No inflection in her voice at all, even when she would get to the point that she was tearing up. She spoke in almost a sing-song voice, like a falsetto. She did refute the claims of child abuse. I'm just not so sure she's a great source. I'd like to hear from people who have left and say it's great. I'm sorry, but I can't help but think these people are totally brainwashed. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 7:04:50 PM | Obviously people who leave would not say its great, lol.
If some leave, and say it is horrible, that does not mean it is horrible for everyone.
Some people leave their country behind and move to a new one. Some might move to a new one, and denounce the old one. Does that mean their word is absolute?
Being brainwashed is relative. I am sure many of them feel mainstream America is brainwashed.. Why else would people work, work, work, and then spend that money on an expensive item of clothing just for the label?(As one small example) | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 7:23:14 PM | 17456 wrote:
If that group is a closed system then they may not have birth certificates or any documents for that matter.
These are still Mormons so I am positive that they keep excellent records of births, deaths, and marriages.
From the link posted by SimmahDahnNah:
The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy.
Actually, the Mormons never did outlaw polygamy; it was forced on them by the United States Courts. I remember from history class in college that the first law that the United States ever passed prohibiting the free exercise of religion was against the Mormon Church in outlawing polygamy. It happened at the turn of the last century but I forget the exact year, 1890 something or around there. This was a landmark case because it was in direct conflict with the 1st amendment of the Constitution. Prior to this, the government stuck to the Constitution. The 1st amendment reads as follows:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 7:29:25 PM |
I'd like to hear from people who have left and say it's great.
I'd have to agree with atlantaman you might be expecting too much if your looking for someone who left to say great things. As a general rule in life people don't seperate themselves from the things they love and cherish... | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 8:01:24 PM | I don't attend the type of church I grew up in, but I don't have anything particularly bad to say about it, same goes for lots of examples in life. I'm sure there are people who have left and are not speaking out in the way Carolyn Jessop is, but the problem is they are not speaking out at all.
Actually, the Mormons never did outlaw polygamy; it was forced on them by the United States Courts.
Thank you for clarifying. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 8:39:18 PM | The plot thickens...
Canadians among children taken from Texas polygamist ranch
Last Updated: Friday, April 18, 2008 - 5:35 PM ET - CBC News
Some of the more than 400 children taken from a West Texas polygamist compound are Canadian citizens, a state official said Friday.
Angie Voss, who is with Texas Child Protection Services, didn't say how many are Canadian or give their ages or sex. Voss said they would remain in state custody regardless of their citizenship.
The ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a breakaway Mormon sect. Built by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, the sect came to west Texas in 2003. It includes about 1,000 followers in the religious community of Bountiful, B.C.
Mike Watkiss, a reporter with Phoenix's KTVK, said the citizenship revelation took everyone at the custody hearings a little off guard.
"We all sort of sat up and took note," he said, adding that it's been alleged children within the sect have travelled back and forth between the U.S. and Bountiful.
"It's long been suspected that when media or the law enforcement officers start looking for a child [who] may be in distress, that they are often spirited across the border to Canada and vice versa," said Watkiss.
Friday's testimony was the first mention of Canadian children, said Watkiss, adding that he didn't know if Canadian authorities were involved in the case.
'Abusive' culture: psychiatrist
In testimony earlier in the day, psychiatrist Bruce Perry said teenage girls do not resist early marriages because they are trained to be obedient and compliant. Perry said the belief system and culture at the compound is "abusive" and "very authoritarian."
He said that while the teenage girls in the breakaway sect believe they are marrying out of free choice, it's a choice based on lessons they've had from birth.
"Obedience is a very important element of their belief system," said Perry, who interviewed three of the children seized in the April 3 raid on the compound, a secluded ranch south of Eldorado.
"Compliance is being godly, it's part of their honouring God."
State District Judge Barbara Walther, who is leading the trial, must decide whether the children will remain in state care in a child custody hearing that is turning out to be one of the largest and most convoluted in U.S. history.
Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children. Experts have told the court that many of the women in the sect had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.
Voss testified Thursday that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.
Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the sect have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said.
The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.
www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/04/18/texas-trial.html | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 9:30:57 PM |
I don't attend the type of church I grew up in, but I don't have anything particularly bad to say about it, same goes for lots of examples in life. I'm sure there are people who have left and are not speaking out in the way Carolyn Jessop is, but the problem is they are not speaking out at all.
There too scared to talk much. Think about what happened to these people for a minute. I mean if you were in their shoes. They have been attacked on a large scale by an army. That’s what SWAT is, an army – automatic weapons, armored vehicles, the works. This army takes over you and everyone you know in town. Your kids have been taken by other people and now you’re not sure about how they are because you are allowed no communications with them. Even the mothers have not seen their own kids for 2 weeks. The idea that people can take your kids and block you from being with them wouldn’t bother you? I can not begin to imagine anything so horrible as what has been inflicted on these people. The woman I saw on TV was sincere and I believe her; she’s a frightened mom and she was pounded with some pretty rude questions. I don’t know about you but I would hate to be in court and attacked by the media at the same time. This is a disaster on them financially too because how can you work when you’re under attack? Please see that even though these people are very strict and different, what has happened to them is pure EVIL by the government. Hell. I’m even a little frightened because so damn few of you seem to see the implications of allowing the government to do such things. This is Hitler type stuff and BELIEVE me when I say as a people we really don’t want to go there. | |
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timj82
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Joined: 11/16/2007
Msg: 197 | |
| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/18/2008 9:50:14 PM | How is forcing a child to marry a 50 year old man that she does not know or like and making her part of a relationship in which she is treated as a 2nd or 3rd class citizen.
wouldn't one think that that was the standard mating pattern of early human cultures?
If the Taliban was still in Afghanistan this is what the culture that would exist there | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/19/2008 3:59:36 AM |
This is a disaster on them financially
Yes, and the Texas authorities might have viewed this is a way to get some free money while also expelling memebers of a religious group from their community they didn't want living there in the first place.
They may dress funny at the Yearning for Zion Ranch, but it can hardly be said they are poor. Their place doesn't look anything like the Branch Davidians... So it could very well be that easy money is part of the motivation behind the Texas raid and their need to paint a picture in the public eye that those people where some how doing something terrible wrong... It's an easy way for the powers to be to get what they want by tying things up in a legal battle bleeding the defendants dry of their cash and assets. They or no one is going to want to lose their children if it's going to take years to get them back. A person would pay, do or say anything if it meant returning their child.
In another time something very simular happened when King Philip IV "the Fair" of France (owed the knights Templar large amounts of money and land; to avoid repaying the debt,) he prevailed on Pope Clement V, based in Avignon and dependent on his good offices, to put members on trial for heresy.
So, this may all be a farce by the powers to be in Texas to get their hands on a wealthy bank account and rid themselves of a religious group they don't want living in their community... Obviously they can't let that image be seen so they use the law to hide behind as King Philip IV did century's ago. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/19/2008 4:35:02 AM | There too scared to talk much. Think about what happened to these people for a minute. I mean if you were in their shoes. They have been attacked on a large scale by an army. That’s what SWAT is, an army – automatic weapons, armored vehicles, the works. This army takes over you and everyone you know in town. Your kids have been taken by other people and now you’re not sure about how they are because you are allowed no communications with them. Even the mothers have not seen their own kids for 2 weeks. The idea that people can take your kids and block you from being with them wouldn’t bother you? I can not begin to imagine anything so horrible as what has been inflicted on these people. The woman I saw on TV was sincere and I believe her; she’s a frightened mom and she was pounded with some pretty rude questions. I don’t know about you but I would hate to be in court and attacked by the media at the same time. This is a disaster on them financially too because how can you work when you’re under attack? Please see that even though these people are very strict and different, what has happened to them is pure EVIL by the government. Hell. I’m even a little frightened because so damn few of you seem to see the implications of allowing the government to do such things. This is Hitler type stuff and BELIEVE me when I say as a people we really don’t want to go there.
The idea of someone taking my kids and not allowing me any contact with them would bother me immensely. But these women knew they were breaking the laws of society and that it might happen at any moment. They have the 1953 raid to reference. And from what I've read, these women don't work, so they're not missing any time off. They might be missing their appointments at social services to receive their welfare, but they're not missing any time off from corporate jobs, and I feel I can say that with near absolute certainty. If by work you mean sewing and cleaning and growing food, ok. But it's not like these women are allowed to be part of the workforce.
And I still have yet to see a man give an interview. Even when they toured the ranch and the woman was showing her home, there was an opportunity. Don't think for a second those reporters didn't ask to talk to one of the men.
An even stranger twist to the story was shown on Anderson Cooper last night. (Lately AC 360 has been addressing this daily, if anyone wanted to check it out). Apparently they think they may have tracked the initial 'report' phone calls to an African American woman who lives in a different state and has no connection to this group. Her name was Rosalita something. She made at least 40 hours worth of phone calls to a woman who runs a child rescue for places like this (this woman being a former member herself). The rescue woman logged these phone calls and videoed herself talking on a two-way with Rosalita, who told her her name was Sarah. Rosalita is the person who gave the name of the man who they originally questioned as being the battering husband of "Sarah", who was apparently dropped as a person of interest because he wasn't even in the state. Very strange indeed....how would someone who has no ties to the place know the name of a member of it? And why would she accuse someone she may or may not know? This case just keeps gettin' weirder and weirder. | |
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| polygamist compound in texas - 200 people removed
Posted: 4/19/2008 7:07:07 AM |
So it could very well be that easy money is part of the motivation behind the Texas raid and their need to paint a picture in the public eye that those people where some how doing something terrible wrong...
I really don’t see any profit motivation here for the State. I’m sure that the out of control cost of the operation has already cost more than any monetary amount they would ever recover. The motivation more likely is to cripple the defendants financially so that they cannot fight back. What we are witnessing here is religious persecution at its finest. We know now that the original complaint was a total hoax. The person that called was Black and 33 years old and never was part of this group and she didn’t even live in Texas. All of this doesn't matter now just as all the reasons that we invaded Iraq don’t matter now that we are there even those all of the original reasons we used to invade that country were later found to be all false. There has been no evidence of wrong doing proved by the state but instead they have produced “experts” that testified that the children were in danger. These “experts” have absolutely no first hand knowledge of any actual events. These days the American public is very willing to accept the removal of Constitutional rights if the case is made that children are at risk. Some crimes these days are above the need for rights and law.
I took a course in communications in college and part of that course taught us about propaganda. Propaganda is a way of spinning the story away from reality to achieve a desired goal. Hitler used these techniques to rally support against Jews during WWII. The Federal and State governments and the media in the United States have been increasingly using these same techniques to achieve their goals for several decades now. Much like in the Book “Animal Farm” the liberators often when they gain power become the oppressors.
Please take a close look at the CBS article posted by The Artful Codger above. Please notice how they dehumanize this group of people by calling them the Texas polygamist ranch instead of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There community is called a “polygamist compound” to infer guilt on all of them. Notice that the evidence by the state is by an “expert” with absolutely no first hand knowledge of any actual events within the community. Notice that these “experts” are invalidating the testimony of all of the women in this community as being the result of “brainwashing.” That is a huge thing when you use no first hand evidence to create a case. This is called “hearsay” in legal circles and typically discarded as not being valid because evidence that is 2nd hand is not evidence. Notice that they say “Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.” The legal age to marry in Texas is 17 so still there is nothing illegal there. They go on to say that “Experts have told the court that some of the women in the community had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.” Again, 17 is considered a minor in Texas but they can still be legally married at that age and they still have not broken any Texas law by being married at that age. However, they go on to say that some women have had children as young as 13 years old. My guess is that out of the whole community there was one or possibly two woman that became pregnant at 13. These few are the ones the government need to exclusively go after and not everyone there. Instead, everyone in town is now guilty by association. All those women that married at a legal age in Texas have lost their children because of one or two people in their community that became pregnant before they should have been sexually active. Please be keenly aware of labels used by the government and the media to cast guilt on whole groups of people. None of you are in danger today from these actions but in the future other groups will also be attacked in the same way if this is allowed to continue and that could very well involve you or your loved ones if these unconstitutional methods are not addressed now. | |
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