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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 6:04:11 AM | | Whitegold...that is one of the best posts i have ever read on here. Congratulations and well said. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 9:11:00 AM |
The necessary financial components of a date are not the same as a purely fiscal transaction for purpose of sex.
I agree. I don't subscribe to the thought that "you are paying for it anyway" if you take a person out, and it quite horrifies me that this remains a prevailing attitude. On a date the choice of who pays for what is up to the pair of you, but for arguments sake let's say the guy buys his date drinks....he is buying drinks and choosing to give her said drinks...he is not buying sex even if he has it in his head that he'd like to have sex with her. If money is paid for an outfit to wear, dinner, taxi fares, whatever...it is those goods and services that are purchased, and they go towards making up the evening out. Nobody is buying sex, even if that's what later happens. It's not pure cause and effect.
Just to go further with that for a moment...lately I have seen a few references on the forum to 'sellers' markets' and a comment somewhere about 'the price' a woman put on intimacy with her...and maybe it's just me, but it makes me shudder to realise how some people generally view sex as a commodity that women have, and subsequently give/grant/sell/surrender/swap for something. I think I read somewhere on here a comment about women trading intimacy for a man's committment. That sort of thinking makes me want to facepalm, except that a red mark on my face might reduce the amount of money I can expect a man to pay for intimacy with me. But c'mon ...when there is sex (mutually consenting sex)...women get the sex too. As in...the pleasure is received as well as given. In the non-prostituting world it's about mutual desire, mutual decision, and mutual gratification, and it's not a gift, a service, a sacrifice, a trade, a favour, a reward, or a special treat a woman "gives a man"... for heaven's sake. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:15:29 AM | "Wow greg - In Kalgoorlie, it has a special street where they are called Hay St- tour buses run up and down it showing the ladys of the night and guided tours ( called Lang tree )on the internet and in person for the general public."
If I understand the legislation in Western Australia correctly, which is still current (Prostitution Act 2000, Section 6, particularly section 6.1-6.4) ) this strictly speaking, is criminal activity. The police may not decide to prosecute, for their own reasons.
"Organized crime is in lots of things - the girls pay tax to the goverment - where is our Ned Kelly
If you use the service, i would suggest to wear condoms, protects you and her
Lawyers, police, councilors, lots have people working for them that use drugs, so its nothing new
Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and who are we to hold judgement over anyone that does"
Murders have also occured from the beginning of civilisation, as have rape. Appealing to its historicity does not make an activity legally or morally justifiable.
"wow you think because some people are doing it that they must be into serious criminal act ,,,, wow what a judgement ,,,,,,would like to know where you get your ideas from !!"
Prostitution, at least trying to solicit sex and sell sex on the street, are still both quite serious criminal offences with quite long custodial sentences attached to them, according to my checking of the relevant Western Australian legislation. There has been some discussion in parliament to decriminalise prostitution, and I will need to check the legislative provisions, but I still think at the very least street prostitution should remain illegal. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 11:33:38 AM | Greg, that may be the case in WA but in Qld we now have quite enlightened (some may be cruel and say how unusual for us) laws on prostitution.
It is legal now inQld to operate a licenced brothel. That brothel can only contain a maximum of 5 working rooms, alcohol is not allowed on the premises, as is the number of additional staff. All people (non working girl) must be approved and licenced. The girls themselves must all be over 18 and must have sought out the work themselves. At the present time they only allow 5 working girls on a brothel premises at any one time altho that may be changed soon to 7 because of OHS issues. Brothels are not allowed to advertise for working girls and they are very limited in all forms of advertising...even on the web. The girls themselves must go through strict safe sex and OHS procedures as well as having monthly drug and std examinations. They can only work in a brothel if their certificate clears them of both drug use and std's. There is very strong security in every brothel and unlike in other States, the girls up here are allowed to decline their services to anyone. All the brothels even have to use the same software for timing clients visits and girls payments etc. They are also regularly checked and dealt with very promptly and severely if they are found breaking the rules. The interesting thing is that since the introduction of these laws, prostitution has been cleaned up considerably in Queensland and most of the previous problems we had are now gone.
Single operator prostitution is now also legal in Qld as long as it is also conducted under fairly strict guidelines. If a single operator fails to operate in that way then it is still a criminal offence. This is the area of prostitution that is still causes some concern but once again since the legalisation it has become much less of a problem.
As an ex police officer I have certainly seen prostitution at its corrupt worst but I do believe the actions Qld have taken have significantly cleaned up what was once a very dark and dangerous business. It is too bad other States have not followed our example.
As for paying for it, well there have been some excellent reasons for and against that already posted. I agree that it is a long stretch to equate paying for sex and going on adate. I also know that why some people say women are forced into it for drugs etc., I think those people would be very surprised how many women go into the business of their own accord and with some long term goal in mind.
I think it will always be a contentious issue but whether you pay or not, well that's your choice and no one elses.
Oh to those talking about paying men for sex in Las Vegas...if you think the male was expensive you should see what he women charge....wow it shocked me and I am not easily shocked. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 10:08:34 PM | Nup.No way.
I have men lined up round the block waiting their turn..... | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/6/2008 11:48:33 PM | Hey Strawbs, I hope your ego isn't writing cheques your body can't cash!!  | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:14:39 AM | Hey,Dark....you cheeky boy....
I never make promises i cant keep !!
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 1:09:17 AM | Everybody
I attest to the queue, it is not a lie !!!...I have to like crash tackle my way thru to her front door each time I pop around, I could set up a hot dog stand for those who are waiting...and dont even mention the constant smsing that goes on !!! I was wondering why there was a mattress on the floor in the living room...now I am the wiser !!! quick easy and convenient exit to said front door !!!
Strawbs ...your a norty girl and hello !!! wheres my cut, as your screening pimp ???????????????? | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 1:27:17 AM | I have paid for it. I was looking for something to cheer myself up. It worked.  | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 2:35:11 AM | Well Syd, anytime i can put a smile on your face please let me know........
Pookie, yes i take it that Greg is studing law or is workin in the area......
Greg, thanks for quoting me - you have interesting facts but im not convinced
Yes i would pay for it - rather than pickin up a guy in a pub or bar and can learn new things for future pleasure | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 2:37:36 AM |
. . . . ...lately I have seen a few references on the forum to 'sellers' markets' and a comment somewhere about 'the price' a woman put on intimacy with her...and maybe it's just me, but it makes me shudder to realise how some people generally view sex as a commodity that women have, and subsequently give/grant/sell/surrender/swap for something. I think I read somewhere on here a comment about women trading intimacy for a man's committment. That sort of thinking makes me want to facepalm. . .
Just when i thought you lost your mojo . . .
Those references were made in connection with prostitution, single people that cannot find intimacy, even people in relationships that do not get intimacy and covering i guess all cases of non-existing or non-functioning relationships which is not ideal but realistic.
Of the people here on PoF would be - of the top of my head - 1%, say 2% in perfect relationships while they are on PoF ?
Of the people that are now in perfect relationships , roughly half will go seperate ways and a high percentage of those will hate each others guts for good.
Thats a good moment for facepalming.
Most of them will take stock by dividing the sum of lost assets by the number of blissfull years and retrospectively attaching a price on things that used to be free.
Another good moment for facepalming.
Functioning relationship.
Friends with benefits.
F*ck buddies.
One night stands.
Sex with prostitutes.
Sliding scale, sliding morality, sliding ethics, sliding commitment, sliding exclusivity, sliding price . . .
If i would have a choice, Naamah - i would like to have "Perfect relationship", thanx.
In the meantime i am doing my best to survive - and sometimes when i dont hold the moral highground because it seems to be reserved for women only - i do what i have to do.
Where is the romance? I am like any other guy - i am naturally romantic when i am in love, smitten, dating, courting. I will spend any amount of time, money and thought on that girl without wanting anything in return cause true love is selfless (... and yes, while i am horrible, even i understand that ...) The rest of the time - like any other guy - i am considerate and caring at best.
As long as there is more women selling sex than men, women will be in a sellers market, agreed ?
As long as there is more men willing to buy sex then women willing to sell sex, women will be in a sellers market, agreed ?
As long as there is more men looking for women then women looking for men on PoF, women are in a sellers market, agreed?
As long as women are in a sellers market, men will feel frustrated and bitter.
You girls wield a lot of power over us - use it responsibly.
OP, would i pay for sex ? Naa . . . .  | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:03:00 AM |
Those references were made in connection with prostitution
Actually, they weren't. They were made with respect to dating/PoF/FwB/FB relationships etc. And it wasn't only on one thread, and it wasn't only you, so please keep your aggrieved snowball throwing elf under control. I admit that I didn't really understand what point you were trying to make with the rest of your post, but I will try again when my head is less stuffed up.
And if anyone finds a mojo...please contact me c/- PoF yada yada. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:20:02 AM | I've given this question carefull consideration and i've concluded...........nope...........
not at this moment thanks.
Hey,ask me in six months,i could be getting a bit toey by then.I keep spending my sex money on toys.Not them sort of toys either. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:25:21 AM | Would I? No, I can keep my urges in check long enough to wait for a guy that's worth doing the horizontal tango with, as part of a relationship.
But just out of curiosity...how much should I charge? 
hnh
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 3:34:42 AM | I wouldn't go to a brothel or prostitute, but say if I happened to meet an attractive girl at a party who needed a little universal lubricant then I wouldn't see it any differently than if I had to buy her a few drinks, providing the cost is about the same.  | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 4:31:36 AM | "Why do we stereotype prostitution and frown on those who take up the service...? Its 2008 are we still so prudish and judgemental ? Bet many a visit to a brothel has saved a marriage, would you prefer your partner to do that or have an affair ???"
This is a somewhat hypothetical question. I agree in an issue such as prostitution, which encompasses legal, political and ethical questions, we need rationality and clarity and good arguments from those who support or oppose it. Prostitution also occurs in many different forms and each of these forms needs to be examined and considered from these perspectives.
Speaking personally, if I found my wife had used a male prostitute, I would consider that adultery and our marriage would be over. I would expect the same treatment from my wife if I did the same.
"Legalise it , I say..................................................................ok all typed while wearing red stilettos and my little nurses uniform. Better take it off before I spill something down the front"
We need to be very careful in this. Child prostitution is a form of prostitution and I think most people would want that to remain illegal. In examining what forms of prostution should be crimes, and which should be legal, we need to examine the forms of prostitution and then make the judgements on each accordingly. Some forms of prostitution I think clearly risk human dignity (such as those involving children or the trafficking of women) while in the eyes of others here, less so (such as between consenting adults).
1) Prostitution, paid sex, or soliciting for paid sex are serious criminal offences with quite serious penalties in some jurisdictions;
"And NOT criminal offenses in other jurisdiction, depending on circumstances. To quote George Carlin, "'Selling' is legal. 'F*cking' is legal. Why isn't 'selling f*cking' legal?!"
I don't think Carlin's argument here is a good support for your own position. Some forms of prostitution (such as child prostitution) are criminal offences in all jurisdictions. You are right that in some jurisdictions, some forms of prostitution or paid sex activity are legal, but heavily and carefully regulated.
'Personally, I make my own moral decisions regardless of the law. In pretty much every case they happen to align. This is not one of those cases."
Your view then seems to be the decision whether or not to engage in paid sexual activity should remain the decision of private conscience. I would agree that the decision to engage in consensual sex with another person who also consents to the sexual act, should not be a criminal offence and should be up to individual conscience. However, I don't think paid sexual activity should enjoy the same legal and moral recognition, for the reasons I've already outlined.
"Actually, this is kind of backwards. You're saying prostitution should stay illegal because of organised crime involvement. I'd argue the exact opposite. It should be legal to STOP the involvement of criminal organisations. The organised crime groups best known in the US, for example, would be the Mafia, a group essentially forged from Prohibition. When you make vices illegal all you do is create a vaccuum for criminals, and it WILL be filled."
This is a possibility, but I also believe organised crime could just as well fill the vacuum if prostitution was legalised. The relationship between organised crime and legal or illegal money-making activities is complex. I think though, the law should ensure activities which are used to ultimately help criminals make good profits, should be make illegal, rather than made legal.
"Of course it has, but the solution to that is prevention and education, not condemnation and judgement. These things need to be tackled openly and honestly. Legislation merely drives it underground, removing any possibility of treating, watching or managing it."
I agree with part 1 of your argument here, but not part 2. I think legislation, either by making it illegal, or at the very least strongly regulated and kept under very tight legal control and surveillance, is the best way to keep prostitution and paid sex from compromising human dignity.
"Yes. They are. BECAUSE it's illegal. Because the women involved are not afforded any protection by a society that looks down on them. These are women who need protection and support, not condemnation. Its very illegality is what gets women hurt and abused."
Perhaps then we can agree paid sex workers should enjoy legal protections if their industry is legalised, including protection from being exploited by employers and clients. However, I still think strong provisions should be made in legislation to make child prostitution absolutely illegal, and to crack down on operators who engage in practices like people trafficking. Any operators who are shown to have any links to organised crime, drugs or allow clients to abuse their workers, should be prosecuted and given custodial sentences for their offences.
"Your view is wrong. Seriously, the view that it's contrary to human dignity is incredibly judgmental, and as such is the problem. You thinking it's contrary to dignity is what makes it so. You looking down on it is what makes it humiliating. You judging it is what lessens them. Not their acts but your very condemnation of them."
I disagree. Some quite strong philosophical and legal arguments have been made, including by women philosophers and jurists (such as Andrea Dworkin) themselves, that prostitution in any form is gravely contrary to human dignity. I can look these up and research them and post them here, but it would take some time. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:14:59 PM | Greg what do you study.... i have a few assignments that you can do for me.... seriously one of australians best part is called the freedom to have choice and yes we will have to agree to disagree but thanks for bringing your thoughts and beliefs forward .... i have enjoys your views as its interesting thanks,,,,,,, | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 12:35:55 PM | Of course I'm against child prostitution. I didn't think that really needed to be said. Not because it's prostitution, but because it's CHILDREN. Surely this is so far outside the point that it needn't even be mentioned.
Similarly I'm strongly against the use of "sex slaves", women from poorer countries brought over here with lures of jobs and money, and then sent to brothels to earn their way out. It's a terrible situation, and regrettably common and the exact sort of situation that YOUR LEGISLATION makes worse.
However, I don't think paid sexual activity should enjoy the same legal and moral recognition, for the reasons I've already outlined.
I can't say I found your reasons compelling. I believe the argument was as follows.
1. Prostitution should stay illegal because it's wrong
2. Prostitution is wrong because it's illegal.
However, I still think strong provisions should be made in legislation to make child prostitution absolutely illegal, and to crack down on operators who engage in practices like people trafficking. Any operators who are shown to have any links to organised crime, drugs or allow clients to abuse their workers, should be prosecuted and given custodial sentences for their offences.
This is kind of on the "well duh" list for me, but yes. Child Prostitution IS illegal. It can't get more illegal. It's against the law. There are laws against it. It's prohibited. It's so thoroughly illegal that they made a law about it. And yes, people trafficking is also illegal. And in Queensland, at least, is starting to be cleaned up. Thanks to the decriminalisation of the industry. And yes. People who break the law should go to jail.
Some quite strong philosophical and legal arguments have been made, including by women philosophers and jurists (such as Andrea Dworkin) themselves, that prostitution in any form is gravely contrary to human dignity.
So you're saying that a bunch of white feminist academics have the official verdict on human dignity? Surely the ultimate authority on that would be... prostitutes. Ask them.
I'm not going to deny that I think prostitution is unwholesome in some strange way. I'm arguing against legislation, not for prostitution. The fact (and this is a fact) is that it's going to happen anyway. Which I personally think means we should try to look after the girls, rather than putting them in further harm because a bunch of feminist academics claim it's "contrary to their dignity". | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 6:25:29 PM |
. . . so please keep your aggrieved snowball throwing elf under control. . .
Did i put the wrong the wrong elf in there again ? Sacre bleu - how clumsy of me !
That illness you are suffering . . . was wondering if it is the bird flue?
Naa, might be something else - only birds with little pointy tongues that seem to leave their beak open for extented periods seem to contract that . . .  | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 7:32:29 PM | Whitegold, just because concepts like morality, family, manners, etiquette, etc, etc are less measurable than some others doesn't make them less important. In fact I would have said that the smooth running of our society is dependent on individuals sense of duty and fair play far more so than the increasingly complex set of laws that govern us.
And no, I wouldn't pay for sex. In any way. I thought Naamah's point about how some view it as a commodity or a tool in a power game was good and possibly says more about their own issues. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/7/2008 7:47:07 PM | greg8002, its great to have such a range of opinions on this forum.
You are in an interesting position - having to represent a hybrid perspective as a person interpreting Australian Law and as a practising catholic.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that there are many issues where Australian Law and Catholic dogma are in open conflict (which should create some internal conflict for you) - both are by nature more focused in setting clear boundaries for future rulings and taking a moral, ethical and humanitarian position that can be easily defended - they both often fail to address the actual problem at hand and compassion for human suffering is not foremost on their mind.
Furthermore, both have adapted the principle of 'Precedence' - that lets them hide behind unjust rulings, passing the buck and hiding behind laws and dogma to justify their own existence.
What is so terribly dangerous - in my personal opinion - about any reference system using 'Precedence' or 'Prior Ruling' or 'Papal Decree' is that it has no mechanism to learn from its own mistakes. Considering the English Penal Laws and the Inquisition that nobody has apologized for - it is more than terrifying.
Women philosophers and jurists can be as constructive in their contribution as the Chief Engineer of the United States Navy when he told two amateurs (one of which was a bicycle mechanic) called the Wright brothers that human powered flight would take another 100 - 200 years before it was even thinkable.
Education can open some peoples minds - to others it acts as a blindfold (Kobalt).
To me, its a very brave thing you do - presenting a view as your own and braking as few as possible rules you are governed by.
Without the legal or religious constraints though, what would be your personal opinion on that question ? | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/8/2008 4:05:15 AM | "Without the legal or religious constraints though, what would be your personal opinion on that question ?"
Catholic or not, the final decision for me in any moral issue is what my conscience decides, as guided by reason and my analysis of several sources.
I agree with you about the problem of authority; I've run into hot water with many Catholics for some of my views which strongly diverge from those of the official church (for example I am not opposed to gay civil unions, legal abortion and the use of contraception) and I've also run into people who are from various walks of life who just disagree with me on some other issue (as Whitegold and his strongly libertarian approach to ethical issues has done here). I don't feel my job here is to parrot the teachings of the church on a moral issue, but the teachings of the church, as do the reflections of those who do moral theology, do inform my own reflections on the subject. However, I also consider the arguments of secular philosophers and thinkers as well as the existing law. I am still quite early in my studies so my skills in researching cases and legislation is still a bit weak, but in time I would examine those as well, and use them to inform my judgement on any issue involving legal questions.
If I had no religious obligations or views, I think we would still need to very carefully examine every difficult moral question using our reason to devise the best and most rational solution to the question at hand. I think prostitution is a case where the law should prevail over individual conscience, but in other areas I think individual conscience has superiority over the law. It depends on the legal, ethical and other issues involved. I think prostitution is no exception, and I would prefer this activity to be carefully monitored and regulated, if it is legal between consenting adults, because of the some of the risks the activities prostitutes engage in entail (such as STD transmission) and also because of other reasons I have talked about in other posts. | |
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| Would you pay for sex ?
Posted: 4/8/2008 4:35:34 AM | I've never paid for it. Have joked with my girlfriend's "if the drought doesn't break" on occasion!
I have a girlfriend who did. $240 and she didn't even get off!!! He was dud. She'd had better one night stands! Fortunately she's a comedian, so she got her money's worth. with her routine! $240 is a weeks rent! I know her vibrator can't kiss........... but hey???? At least she would have been happy & slept soundly!
Off the track......... a friend of mine, who's a historian was telling me about the oldest form of advertising. The "fish' symbol Christains use, was originally used by prosititutes. They had this symbol carved on the soles of their shoes. With the roads & footpaths being dirt, the symbol was imprinted in the dirt thus leading customers to their place of business.
A bit of trivia for you................... | |
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