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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:13:41 PM |
I read that an atheist has never been elected president
What are we to make of this?
That the majority of Americans population focus on too many non-issues in an election | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:29:15 PM |
You keep saying things such as: But you go sticking to your beliefs. You seem to be having a bit of difficulty conceeding that non-belief isn't a belief, it's lack thereof.
Let's take a poll: How many atheists testify on this site that they are not offended by me saying that "I don't believe that some atheists aren't serial killers"?
Come on, speak up. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:54:54 PM | ^^^^^^^
I read that an atheist has never been elected president
What are we to make of this?
Only that in the United States, it would be political suicide to profess any religious belief other than a belief in the Judeo/christian god. It is quite possible that there have been covert secular humanist presidents....paying lip service to being christian, in order to secure the votes of the religious to gain presidential office.
In Australia, at least two Prime Ministers are known have been atheists. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 4:03:45 PM | chelloveck:
Only that in the United States, it would be political suicide to profess any religious belief other than a belief in the Judeo/christian god. It is quite possible that there have been covert secular humanist presidents....paying lip service to being christian, in order to secure the votes of the religious to gain presidential office.
Some of the early presidents such as Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and perhaps James Madison were openly non-Christian. A few presidents were non-Trinitarian Christians (John Adams, John Q. Adams, Millard Fillmore). Other presidents were baptized after their terms of office were over.
So, it really just depends. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 5:09:31 PM | I read that an atheist has never been elected president
What are we to make of this?
I take this to mean that the Christian majority in America are bigots.
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 6:05:14 PM |
I read that an atheist has never been elected president
What are we to make of this? Jacobus101:
Some of the early presidents such as Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and perhaps James Madison were openly non-Christian. A few presidents were non-Trinitarian Christians (John Adams, John Q. Adams, Millard Fillmore). Other presidents were baptized after their terms of office were over. chelloveck:
Only that in the United States, it would be political suicide to profess any religious belief other than a belief in the Judeo/christian god. It is quite possible that there have been covert secular humanist presidents....paying lip service to being christian, in order to secure the votes of the religious to gain presidential office. I was going to ignore this, because of the obvious comparison of Jefferson, but since others are commenting on it, consider this:
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?") http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
Considering that Thomas Jefferson was a deist or daemonist, and was only a theist and had no connection to any Judeo-Christian G-d, because he claimed to have no connection to any of the Abrahamic religions, and Jefferson was a President of the USA, and considered by Americans as being the founder of one of the most fundamental principles of American government, that of the separation between church and state, I find it untenable to suggest that any homage is paid to the Judeo-Christian G-d. American bills are quoted to contain the words "In G-d we trust", but never "In Jesus we trust". All this suggest that it would be political suicide to say that you don't believe in G-d. But to say that you are not a Christian is perfectly acceptable. That isn't bigotry, because Christianity is STILL the biggest religion in the USA, and yet Christians elect non-Christian heretics, who don't believe in Jesus, and who therefore would be going to Hell according to their own beliefs, and yet still elect these Hellbound heretics to be their President and to decide on the laws that define their very lives.
In Australia, at least two Prime Ministers are known have been atheists. That is interesting, because Australia is not that much older or younger than the USA, in that they both had natives before being discovered by Europeans, Australia being discovered in 1606 and claimed by the British in 1770. The only notable difference I can think of is that the original European settlers of Australia were rumoured to be mostly convicts, while the original European settlers of the USA were rumoured to be mostly puritans, who were religious but followers of their own independent branches of Christianity.
Also, I would just like to point out that while the people of the UK have chosen to be ruled by a woman many times, at least 3 times by a female monarch (which does require the assent of the people), and elected a female Prime Minister for no less than 3 consecutive democratic elections, no President of the USA and no Prime Minister of Australia has ever been a woman, and these are the only equivalent offices in either country. Would it be true to conclude that the UK is completely non-sexist, and that Aussies and Americans are all sexist chauvinist pigs? I think not. So I don't really see how this shows anything positive about Australians either. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 6:14:45 PM | From Theology Web
George Washington was a nominal Anglican who rarely stayed for Communion. John Adams was a Unitarian, which Trinitarians abhorred as heresy. Thomas Jefferson, denounced as an atheist, was actually a deist who detested organized religion and who produced an expurgated version of the New Testament with the miracles eliminated. Jefferson and James Madison, a nominal Episcopalian, were the architects of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom. James Monroe was another Virginia Episcopalian. John Quincy Adams was another Massachusetts Unitarian. Andrew Jackson, pressed by clergy members to proclaim a national day of fasting to seek God's help in combating a cholera epidemic, replied that he could not do as they wished "without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion now enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the general government."
In the 19th century, all presidents routinely invoked God and solicited his blessing. But religion did not have a major presence in their lives. Abraham Lincoln was the great exception. Nor did our early presidents use religion as an agency for mobilizing voters. "I would rather be defeated," said James A. Garfield, "than make capital out of my religion." | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 6:35:16 PM |
That is interesting, because Australia is not that much older or younger than the USA, in that they both had natives before being discovered by Europeans, Australia being discovered in 1606 and claimed by the British in 1770. The only notable difference I can think of is that the original European settlers of Australia were rumoured to be mostly convicts, while the original European settlers of the USA were rumoured to be mostly puritans, who were religious but followers of their own independent branches of Christianity.
If you visit Old Portsmouth you will find a plaque stating some blurb about the "first settlers to colonise America left by this gate in the sea wall .. yada yada yada"
& about 6ft away on the oppsite side of the gate is a plaque that states "first settlers to colonise Australia left by this gate in the sea wall .. yada yada yada"
& yes, the one notable difference is what shaped both nations into what they are today: one for the better & one for the worse.. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:31:55 PM | Message 281
Also, I would just like to point out that while the people of the UK have chosen to be ruled by a woman many times, at least 3 times by a female monarch (which does require the assent of the people), and elected a female Prime Minister for no less than 3 consecutive democratic elections, no President of the USA and no Prime Minister of Australia has ever been a woman, and these are the only equivalent offices in either country. Would it be true to conclude that the UK is completely non-sexist, and that Aussies and Americans are all sexist chauvinist pigs? I think not. So I don't really see how this shows anything positive about Australians either.
^^^^^^^ that was not a conclusion that I was trying to make.
I was referring to contemporary politics more so than 19th century and earlier politics.
If contemporary Australian parliamentary parties consisdered that it was in their party's best interests to have a female head of government, then it would be so. The federal government has nominated a female defacto head of state (Governor General) and the government's Deputy Prime Minister (Julia Gillard) is a strong contender for the role of Prime Minister when vacancy should arise. In some ways Australia is progressive, but in other ways still conservative, given that our head of state (Her Maj QEII) is a foreigner.....though it does seem that we'll eventually become a republic (hopefully in my lifetime).
All I am pointing out is that being an atheist is not a disability to candidacy when it comes to holding high political office in Australia....indeed, being homosexual is not necessarily fatal to holding high political or judicial office in Australia either, regardless of the railings of religious wowsers and conservatives. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:59:28 PM | chelloveck:
I was referring to contemporary politics more so than 19th century and earlier politics.
Personally, I believe that an American presidential candidate's theism or atheism is not as big of a deal except in certain cycles like right now in post-9/11 times. Still, I believe it's more likely for an atheist who is/was nominally affiliated with a mainstream Christian church or Jewish synagogue to be elected than a devout believer of a fringe sect (whether it's Mormons, Muslims, Sikhs, or whatever). Americans still have that element of pragmatism about them, kind of like the Brits with the monarch (anyone's fine as long as he's not Catholic).
our head of state (Her Maj QEII) is a foreigner.....though it does seem that we'll eventually become a republic (hopefully in my lifetime).
And here I am, an American wishing we were still part of the Crown's domains..... under the Stuart dynasty, to boot. Damn, I feel old-fashioned now. I'm not even sure that falls under "conservatism" anymore. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:37:51 PM | I came from The uk i was born and brought over at age 1 to the states and theres more to my english history than u think most great doctors are from the uk and great music as well iam proud to be a brit iam alos american through my father he was american gi over there.
But becareful what you state about the english and i will tell ya why
Pilgrims, or Pilgrim Fathers, is a name commonly applied to the early settlers of the Plymouth Colony in present-day Plymouth, Massachusetts. Their leadership came from a religious congregation who had fled a volatile political environment in the East Midlands of England for the relative calm of the Netherlands to preserve their religion. Concerned with losing their cultural identity, the group later arranged with English investors to establish a new colony in North America. The colonists faced a lengthy series of challenges, from bureaucracy, impatient investors and internal conflicts to sabotage, storms, disease, and uncertain relations with the indigenous people. The colony, established in 1620, became the second successful English settlement in what was to become the United States of America, the first being Jamestown, Virginia, which was founded in 1607. Their story has become a central theme of the history and culture of the United States
so us english have a good part to us to . | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 9:50:08 PM | Yes, as said, being an Atheist is not a disability in Australia in terms of office, whereas in the US it would be fatal.
It's also worth stating that though we haven't had a female prime minister, at the current time the deputy prime minister is female, the premier of Queensland is a prime minister, and our governer general is female. In Queensland, especially, a record number of judges, etc, are female. It's not approaching parity or anything, but it's better than it's ever been before. And Queensland is possibly the most conservative state in Australia.
A few quick things - Australian's don't actually vote for the Prime Minister. We vote for the party, and they pick the party leader. In general in practise it amounts to the same thing, but there have been occasions when the people vote for one person, then the party kicks them out. So the point is "Australians have never voted for a female prime minister" is a bit of an error in itself. Australians have never voted for a prime minister, period. 
Secondly, the "convicts" thing. While it's true that Australia started as a penal colony, the vast majority of its early settlers were just that. Settlers. Many from the same countries as the US (Ireland and England, especially). Why we never got the strong religious moralism of the US. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/24/2008 10:17:56 PM | ^^^^^^^
Though interestingly in Australia, the constituents of a prime minister's electorate have the power to vote their prime minister out of office.....which is what happened in the last Federal election when John Howard was given his bowler hat and his marching orders...., his professed (small c) christianity was not enough to save him.... | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 4:34:22 AM |
I read that an atheist has never been elected president
What are we to make of this?
That stupid people should'nt vote?  | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 7:48:55 AM | | timber wolf: I'm not sure what your point is. The "armchair warrior" made the statement that an Atheist soldier's death has more value than a Religious soldier's death. My point was that their beliefs are irrelevant to the value of their death. You're an Atheist and not ashamed of it? Good for you. You shouldn't be. You served in the Armed Services? Good for you again. Appreciated. The guy next to you? Would it have mattered to you what his beliefs were? Would you rather it mattered to him what you believed or not? | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 8:29:28 AM | ^^^^^^ It was RO that pointed out to me how we don't even actually know the religious background (or non-religious) of any of our Prime Ministers here in Canada. I'm sure it would be easy enough to find out if the research was done.
But the point being, that one's religious background has never been a factor at election time or when just simply serving in office. It's not a topic of discussion or concern, ever. At least not that I can recall. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 8:47:43 AM |
But the point being, that one's religious background has never been a factor at election time or when just simply serving in office. It's not a topic of discussion or concern, ever. At least not that I can recall.
Actually it has, Stockwell Day was attacked by the media and opposition for this religious beliefs, I thought that was ridiculous since there were more important issues that we were could have focused on and did, but it was unnecessary. Though I imagine someone who openly discussed their atheism during a political campaign would likely also be roasted for it. The take home lesson being for politicians in Canada, keep religion or lack thereof to yourself. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 9:15:02 AM |
Though I imagine someone who openly discussed their atheism during a political campaign would likely also be roasted for it. The take home lesson being for politicians in Canada, keep religion or lack thereof to yourself.
I have a tendency to believe that anyone in Canada who openly brags about their religion, any religion (or lack thereof) in politics would be roasted for it. Zealots are not a welcome site in Canada, we're too much of a stewing pot to allow it. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 9:27:29 AM |
My point was that their beliefs are irrelevant to the value of their death.
How much YOU value their death, maybe, but the issue is how much THEY value their death. (Well, value their life, at least.) A very important thing. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 11:28:39 AM | What was this thread about again? I seem to have lost sight of the actual purpose....
But then, these dualistic "I know better than you" threads seem to have the most longevity in here  | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 12:53:07 PM | The guy next to you? Would it have mattered to you what his beliefs were? Would you rather it mattered to him what you believed or.
in war or peace time there is no question on each others believe's regardless you more less becaome a family a band of brother's who watch each others back war is hell theres no other way to say it better than that. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 1:36:26 PM |
war is hell theres no other way to say it better than that.
depends if you were actually involved in it or watching it on TV from the comfort of your armchair.
atheists have faith there is no god. would that make them disappointed or pleasantly surprised if it turns out there is a god? | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 1:41:31 PM | It matters little if a soldier is a theist or atheist, only that they are willing to lay down their lives for another. My only son is a soldier and his afterlife beliefs matter not, nor do those of his fellow soldiers.  | |
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