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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:43:11 PM | The one outstanding error made by atheists in this thread is assuming that christians have the first ****ing clue what atheism actually is. It seems that most of them don't...
They still can't get pass that fact that atheism is NOT "faith there isn't a god".. but then again, expecting to debate facts with christians is like pissing in the wind. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 3:11:54 PM | hey limey who are you calling a christian??????
as atheism is not a set of rules or beliefs, but more a personal acceptance or denial of the world around them on a physical and spirtual level. My description of "faith there is no god" can belong to atheists who do not follow your ideology of atheism.
Please do not claim you know what an atheist is when there are many great philosphers still debating the topic. I will however, accept you know what your interpretation of an atheist is. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 7:03:31 PM | atheists have faith there is no god. would that make them disappointed or pleasantly surprised if it turns out there is a god?
This is incorrect on two points. It doesn't take faith to lack belief in something that has no evidence for its existence. Atheists don't have faith that there is no god; Atheists lack belief in any god or gods. It's an important difference. Atheists are not saying that god(s) doesn't exist. We simply don't have a positive belief that god(s) exists. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/25/2008 7:19:14 PM |
as atheism is not a set of rules or beliefs, but more a personal acceptance or denial of the world around them on a physical and spirtual level. My description of "faith there is no god" can belong to atheists who do not follow your ideology of atheism.
Please do not claim you know what an atheist is when there are many great philosphers still debating the topic. I will however, accept you know what your interpretation of an atheist is.
Please look up atheism in a quality dictionary. You will find that atheism is quite simply "no god belief". No more no less.
They do not " deny the world around them on a physical and spiritual level"
There are no "great philosophers" debating what an atheist is.
It's very simple.
An Atheist is a person who has no belief in deity.
THAT'S ALL it says about the person
There is only ONE interpretation of what an atheist is.
No god belief.
Got it? | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/26/2008 12:30:39 AM | "All I am pointing out is that being an atheist is not a disability to candidacy when it comes to holding high political office in Australia....indeed, being homosexual is not necessarily fatal to holding high political or judicial office in Australia either, regardless of the railings of religious wowsers and conservatives."
I agree with this point. Religion and sexual preference or orientation are not things which the general public or holders of government office hold to be important. One justice of the High Court, Michael Kirby, is openly gay for example.
It is true some political leaders have closely connected their religious views and their political ministry though. Tony Abbott, a devout Catholic, and Brian Harradine, also a Catholic, seemed to use their political powers to try and block legislation or hinder social policies (such as freer access to contraceptive methods and abortifacient drugs) inconsistent with the official moral teachings of the Church. Other political leaders such as John Howard, Kevin Rudd and Peter Costello did exploit religion when there was a political advantage to doing so (such as getting more votes in important marginal electorates). But the majority of the Australian electorate are not overly religious and don't agitate as much about issues in which religion and religious teachings seem to have a strong say, such as access to legalised abortion, homosexual marriages or civil unions, access to contraception, stem cell research, and so on. In this respect Australia is much more like Europe and firmly secular in its public and political life, rather than the U.S., where religious groups from Catholic Bishops to Evangelical Christian activists to others demand their place at the table on any key political or social issue. Religious groups here also enter public debate, but with less force, power and vigor (and public respect) than they seem to have in the U.S.
I personally think Australia should continue with its tradition of keeping religion out of politics, and keeping politics out of religion. I think we should avoid going the way the U.S. has. Still, it is fairly unlikely as the numbers of people here who are openly religious is quite small, compared to the U.S. Only a fraction of the people who profess to be Anglican or Catholic for example, regularly attend church. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/26/2008 2:26:05 AM | Andy wrote;
Please do not claim you know what an atheist is when there are many great philosphers still debating the topic. I will however, accept you know what your interpretation of an atheist is.
I agree that there are philosophers that continue to debate this topic,but it does appear as if the post that follows is presenting a claim /an assertion of something as a fact,that states otherwise. But fret not, I got ya back on this.
evolving62 wrote;
Please look up atheism in a quality dictionary. You will find that atheism is quite simply "no god belief". No more no less.
They do not " deny the world around them on a physical and spiritual level"
There are no "great philosophers" debating what an atheist is.
It's very simple.
An Atheist is a person who has no belief in deity.
THAT'S ALL it says about the person
There is only ONE interpretation of what an atheist is.
No god belief.
Got it?
Here's ya a link. http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/smithdef.htm#[16] I do not know what you would consider as a great philosopher but as I was validating the sources for reliability and consistency that were used,I quite enjoyed the read along the way.
andy wrote;
hey limey who are you calling a christian??????
I have Christian beliefs/faith so I'll go ahead and respond to his generalization/logical fallacy in post 301
TheLimey/post 301
The one outstanding error made by atheists in this thread is assuming that christians have the first ****ing clue what atheism actually is. It seems that most of them don't...
They still can't get pass that fact that atheism is NOT "faith there isn't a god".. but then again, expecting to debate facts with christians is like pissing in the wind.
One may say,"You are right" or may validate your words by at least choosing to say" You are wrong"and sometimes in philosophy when something is referred to as nonsense,one may choose not to say anything at all. Imo,your posts over here,alongside the posts made by a few others,is something I would consider as nothing more than blatant nonsense,so all this time,I had chosen to say nothing at all..... until I read your posting history ....So,I'm your huckleberry
First off,in regard to this part of your post
The one outstanding error made by atheists in this thread is assuming that christians have the first ****ing clue what atheism actually is. It seems that most of them don't...
You might have something there...after reading your posting history,I thought I'd ask,"What denomination are you?" 
In other words,in regard to your generalization made, I don't think your in a position to speak on the behalf of every atheist that has posted over here for indeed,imo whitegold,rockondon,saintgasoline and others have demonstrated the ability and imo,the attractive intelligence to structure and build an argument using logical framework,notwithstanding should a logical error exist or should one not exist along the way.
Let me also say,with any logical errors I may possibly make, I actually anticipate any corrections as I plan on responding to their post and others with much motivation. And actually,I believe you have a real good chance at winning "the one outstanding error made by atheists" award should this even exist.
Like for example, possibly with this part of your post;
but then again, expecting to debate facts with christians is like pissing in the wind.
I would be more than happy to debate you in these forums but the only problem is,imo,to me it appears that backing up your claims with facts and/or available evidence is not your strong point but instead I believe your art of persuasion in an argument/debate consist of libel comments with your attempt at humor and making logical fallacies/absurdities while doing so. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/26/2008 12:54:47 PM | In countering the statement that an Atheist soldier's death is more valuable than a religious soldier's death, I said: My point was that their beliefs are irrelevant to the value of their death.
whitegold765 said: How much YOU value their death, maybe, but the issue is how much THEY value their death. (Well, value their life, at least.) A very important thing.
What's your point? What is it you're nitpicking over? Two soldiers die doing exactly the same heroic act (let's make it throwing themselves in front of a grenade to save a woman and child). Same circumstances. Same action. Same result. All things are equal with one exception. One was an Atheist. One was Christian. Whose death was more valuable. Whose death had more merit. Whose death was more noble? Whose death was more heroic? | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/26/2008 4:12:38 PM | What's your point? What is it you're nitpicking over? Two soldiers die doing exactly the same heroic act (let's make it throwing themselves in front of a grenade to save a woman and child). Same circumstances. Same action. Same result. All things are equal with one exception. One was an Atheist. One was Christian. Whose death was more valuable. Whose death had more merit. Whose death was more noble?
The Atheist's death is more noble. The Christian believes that he's going to Heaven when he dies so death is merely a transition. The Atheist (at least most Western Atheists) does not believe in an afterlife so death is the end of the story. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 4:07:36 PM | in the united states it was supose to be to seperate church from state its not that way here in money its in god we trust in schools its one nation under god it seems as religion has colided with state and fed.
faith religion and god suposed to be kept in a church not spread like a brush fire all over i believe i heard it some where in the papers and news that some are tring to prohibit religion in to reg schools and there tring to take out the one nation under god part out of the pledge .
what richard dawkings had exsplain was its a virus of faith it has spread through everything like a brush fire . i believe as a atheist religion should be kept out of state and fed.
that religion is kept to one self and to be kept it teaching in a church or at home what ever not in state or fed.
the seperation from church and state. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 7:20:18 PM |
TheLimey on 4/25/2008
They still can't get pass that fact that atheism is NOT "faith there isn't a god".. but then again, expecting to debate facts with christians is like pissing in the wind.
okay ~ I'm accept that. ~ so help me please, ~ you have offered what an atheism is not ~ help me understand what one is. Speaking purly for myself , I was under the impression, an atheist and atheism was the disbelief of a "one" ~ the one that connects us all. The "one" that all thing derive from.
not a belief at all ~ but a disbelief.
I'm guilty of pissing in the wind myself ~ but my aim has geartly improved as the years has passed by. ~
so The Limey ~ answer my question ~ what is atheism?
and I'll answer your question~ if I know the answer ~ if I don't ~ which is most likly ~ I will tell you I don't know. ~ deal?
There is much I don't know ~ I do know what works however ~ and really must accept that it does work without fully understand how. I've never seen an atom ~ but I accept the fact that they are real and exist. ~ dar | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 8:29:02 PM |
I said: Two soldiers die doing exactly the same heroic act (let's make it throwing themselves in front of a grenade to save a woman and child). Same circumstances. Same action. Same result. All things are equal with one exception. One was an Atheist. One was Christian. Whose death was more valuable. Whose death had more merit. Whose death was more noble?
CountIbil said: The Atheist's death is more noble.
You are entirely wrong. NEITHER is more noble. Both deaths are equally noble, equally honourable, and of equal value. You disgust me that you would defame a soldier's death based on that soldier's religious beliefs. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 9:01:06 PM | i can tell ya whats not noble is when some one kill for what they believe in such as the world trade center,pearl harbor,ect,
There has beed more killing over religion than any war put together it happends every day look at what they did to take over to planes with box cutters and put all those people to death for there god for there believe's and smashed in to the WTC or how many people have died for being totured and killed to repent for there sins all done for there god REV JIM JONES is another exsample to have his followers drink posion to die for what his believe was.
When will it end that is my question. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 9:31:47 PM | You are entirely wrong. NEITHER is more noble. Both deaths are equally noble, equally honourable, and of equal value.
I note that you provide no rationale for this judgment and ignore my rationale for my judgment. I think that says a lot.
You disgust me that you would defame a soldier's death based on that soldier's religious beliefs.
It disgusts me that you would lie about me defaming a soldier's death. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/27/2008 10:20:38 PM | | No rationale was needed. I appeal to the obvious in your disgusting excuse for a reason. You are perverse in your thinking, and show your true colours and bias. I won't engage in this defamation and dishonour of any soldier's death any more. You judge their deaths unequal because of your sick twisted views. So be it. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 7:01:59 AM | No rationale was needed. I appeal to the obvious in your disgusting excuse for a reason. You are perverse in your thinking, and show your true colours and bias. I won't engage in this defamation and dishonour of any soldier's death any more. You judge their deaths unequal because of your sick twisted views. So be it.
I see. You make a claim and we should simply accept it. And then you lie about what I said, and we should simply believe it. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:40:27 AM |
You are entirely wrong. NEITHER is more noble. Both deaths are equally noble, equally honourable, and of equal value.
I note that you provide no rationale for this judgment and ignore my rationale for my judgment. I think that says a lot.
You disgust me that you would defame a soldier's death based on that soldier's religious beliefs.
It disgusts me that you would lie about me defaming a soldier's death. This allows you to quote a previous post.
I'll pass on the disgust and defaming comments~ those are small thoughts and unworthy comment.
But regarding the hypocitical solider sarifrice ~ they are both equal ~ and some would argue that the non-believer might have the edge ~ For the Lord loves a sinner ~
It goes back and is rooted in an old bibical story of one lost sheep ~ and the shepard , leaves the flock of many sheep ~ to search out and save the lost one. Placing the one lost , of greater importance then all the others combined.
It's a metaphor ~ and bring forward nobel deeds done by someone without consideration for one's self or one's perdispositions and it being a truly grand moment and take stock in the true nature of man! Man is a loving being.
I don't like the word sinner ~ never have ~ ! because of the way it's been used ~ and I think few really understand what it means.
Sin , it an Anglo -Saxton archery term ~ which means to be "off target" ~ off center ~ so your arrow could be at left sin3 ~ or 3rd rind off center
I always hated the word ! and appolige for using it ~It's the way the preacher always said it ~ like it was dog duky ~ but to repete the words "God does love a sinner" and takes favor with him.
To understand this ~ and it's ~ "not" easy to do ~ you might begin to understand Christanity and how it applied to day to day living.
And it's true ~ many think they do ~ "but don't" ~ and thats one of the reasons of all the wars and chos and human suffering in the name of religion. ~ I to, am disgusted with hypocrisy and the holy'er then I, additude. ~ dar | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 7:38:55 PM | On the soldier's death: It's gotten out of hand. The original comment was to state that a christian who sacrifices his life is in fact sacrificing less than an atheist, as his own life subjectively has less value. Less value to to him. The atheist has no hope of salvation, and is sacrificing his only life.
To extend that to say that there's an objective or empirical difference between the two is pointless. Of course they're both heroes, and of course they're both noble, and equally so. No Christian who does that is saying "Hey, it's OK, my life is worthless anyway, I go to heaven". No, he (or she) simply does what they have to do at the time, with no thought for themselves. Atheist, Catholic, Buddhist or Baptist, anyone who makes that supreme sacrifice is a hero. No one is questioning that.
okay ~ I'm accept that. ~ so help me please, ~ you have offered what an atheism is not ~ help me understand what one is. Speaking purly for myself , I was under the impression, an atheist and atheism was the disbelief of a "one" ~ the one that connects us all. The "one" that all thing derive from.
not a belief at all ~ but a disbelief.
Since you asked it's really pretty simple.
Think of... say... Thor. Does it take any "faith" to not believe in Thor? Would you consider yourself an active Thor disbeliever, or Thor Skeptic?
Inevitably the answer is no. You just don't believe in it. It's a fairy story from a long dead belief system. You don't have to try to disbelieve it, and it doesn't take any faith. It's just clearly nonsense.
Atheists simply apply the same feelings to your God that you ascribe to the thousands of others. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:39:57 PM | *Sorry for the late response. . I thought I'd posted this reply days ago.
I said: Actually, it's not because it would be impossible. it's because it's outside the purview of Science
evolving62 said: That's just another way of saying impossible No. It's simply a way of saying, "The question, 'Does God exist?' is outside the purview of Science."
I said: Science, is not concerned with such questions as :"does God exist"
evolving62 said: If there was evidence for god existing, believe me, science would be very interested indeed. But alas... As I said, "The question, 'Does God exist?' is outside the purview of Science."
I said: and any answers, are a matter of "Philosophy", "Religion", and "Theology
evolving62 said: What possible "answers" could you hope to achieve with religion and theology Philosophical, Religious, and Theological ones? As for "answers", it's not always about achieving something. Sometimes asking the question is more important than finding the answer.
Addendum: I totally agree with you about "Atheism" and "Atheist" being properly defined as "no belief in god(s)" (or "belief in no god(s)"), and respect your definition. It is disrespectful to you to try to force a "faith" on you. Of course, part of the confusion is that some people create sub-definitions of "Atheist" while only using the main word, and even those who define themselves as "Atheist" use different terms and language to say what that means to them.
I think it was AncientMuse who put it so simply as:
Atheism = No
Agnosticism = Maybe/Don't Know
Theism = Yes
As for the soldier's death and the inherent value of their sacrifices...
On the soldier's death: It's gotten out of hand. The original comment was to state that a christian who sacrifices his life is in fact sacrificing less than an atheist, as his own life subjectively has less value. Less value to to him. It sure has gotten out of hand. Now you're busy telling Christians what value they place on their own lives. I suggest you're not competent or qualified enough to know. This whole line of reasoning smacks of elitism. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:02:43 PM |
websters universal dictionary Atheist n. one who believes there is no God.
Woo! I'm not an atheist then because....... I don't believe there is a god.
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:05:53 PM | The atheist has no hope of salvation, and is sacrificing his only life.
I see and understand ~ it makes little difference
and it's not really out of hand at all ~ but bring forward the love of God for all~
God shows favor on the lost ones ~ Those that are "saved" as you might wish to say~ are fine .
Forgive me , I'm not wishing to pick something apart here but ,
in the quote above, "the atheist has no hope for salvation" ~ this is the kind of talk that screws peoples minds up ~ all this saved crap ~
The soldier did what he did ~ because it was the thing to do ~ he had no thoughts of reward ~ he needs no salvation. ~
That said , lets look at it your way, ~ There is always hope for salvation, if one of the thieves crucified with Christ got a "Free Card" when Jesus spoke to him and told him, "This day, you shall be with me in pardise" ~~ sounds like a "get of of jail card " to me.
This salvation business ~ make it hard to sell the real deal ~ and confused and befuddles ~ this has more to do with religious dogma and interpution.
considering the the audience and the opportunity to offer ideas that make a difference~ I find it accine to venture into "salvation" which I myself don't understand ~ makes no sense ~ after 55 years of trying to figure it out myself. ~
where any of you have accepted Christ or not ~ he's accepted you! ~ We are all "IN" and that was the point ~ I was attempting to get across.
We do "good" because it's the thing to do ~ not for reward~ behaving well has it's rewards ~ some come instantly , and some later ~ Self -Image is the first reward ~ can you see yourself kicking a sleeping dog? ~~ No? Can you see yourself stealing something? NO? ~ Can you see yourself helping a child up to a drinking fountain? Yes?
Can you see yourself showing someone how much you love them? yes?
this is your reward ~ How you "see" yourself. ~ make an good happy picture ~
and it will serve you well ~ where you wish to believe or not ~ God is in you, as you are in God ~ you have no choise. ~ dar
Spare us the holy water ~ Give us something we can use here ~today! dar | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:15:44 PM |
To extend that to say that there's an objective or empirical difference between the two is pointless. Of course they're both heroes, and of course they're both noble, and equally so. No Christian who does that is saying "Hey, it's OK, my life is worthless anyway, I go to heaven". No, he (or she) simply does what they have to do at the time, with no thought for themselves. Atheist, Catholic, Buddhist or Baptist, anyone who makes that supreme sacrifice is a hero. No one is questioning that.
Bravo whitegold, you are the voice of reason. However, it occured to me last night whilst at work that the badly behaved Christian who is expecting a roasting in hell has arguably the most to lose so must be the bravest.
I know, it's a silly argument... | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:48:30 PM |
However, it occured to me last night whilst at work that the badly behaved Christian who is expecting a roasting in hell has arguably the most to lose so must be the bravest.
And the well behaved christian sees life merely as a transitory obstacle to eternal paradise, and looks forward to a noble death and thus has (according to himself) less to lose.
But yeah I agree, its a really lame argument imo. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 4/28/2008 11:24:05 PM |
It sure has gotten out of hand. Now you're busy telling Christians what value they place on their own lives. I suggest you're not competent or qualified enough to know. This whole line of reasoning smacks of elitism.
The original comment on this was not mine, so I said no such thing. Besides just below what you quoted I flatly contradicted what you're saying I said, and if you weren't so busy trying to take offense where none was intended you'd have seen that. | |
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