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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/11/2008 5:36:22 PM |
If you think that scientific usage of the term 'theory' implies uncertainty than you are greatly misinformed.
I agree. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the word, and better education may be the answer. But science probably is'nt doing itself too many favours by using it because of it's double meaning, so maybe a name change? | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/11/2008 6:52:55 PM |
I agree. There is a fundamental lack of understanding of the word, and better education may be the answer. But science probably is'nt doing itself too many favours by using it because of it's double meaning, so maybe a name change? That would be the sensible thing. In Mathematics, we have several terms:
A theory, in Mathematics, is just an idea. It doesn't have to be true. An example is the Theory of Calculus, which is just the idea of infinitesimal calculations.
A theorem, in Mathematics, is a particular statement that has been proved to be true. It must be qualified rigorously, so as to avoid ambiguity, and it must be proved rigorously, so as to avoid underdeterminism. If a theorem has not yet been conclusively and rigorously proved, then it is called a conjecture. An example is Fermat's Last Theorem, which I found out was called Fermat's Last Conjecture by Mathematicians, until it was finally proved to be true by Andrew Weil, at which point, it became a Theorem.
A lemma, in Mathematics, is a part of a theorem, that is rigorously proved, in order to prove the theorem itself.
A proposition, in Mathematics, is a type of theorem, that is generally a very small version of a theorem, and not particularly significant in itself, but it often is used to help prove a theorem. Lemmas and propositions tend to be quite similar, but they are used in different situations.
A corollary, in Mathematics, is a conclusion that comes from a theorem, whose proof relies on the proof of a theorem.
Mathematicians seem to like making things very clear-cut, so that everyone knows what is what. Maybe science could be so too. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/11/2008 7:06:51 PM |
Oh not this shit again... how does this misconception continue to propagate.
Einstein most certainly did not believe in a personal god and was at best a pantheist but other than calling the universe "god" his views were almost completely indistinguishable from an atheist.
Darwin was a self admitted agnostic and by modern definition a weak atheist, he did not have a death bed conversion. The story of his conversion is a falsehood spread by the ignorant and has been denied by his own children and universally rejected by historians..
erm, yeah. in other words, you AGREE with what i said.
they were NOT ATHEISTS.
you guys get so touchy about the fact that these brilliant men didnt actually share your dogmatism. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/11/2008 8:05:01 PM | It's a good idea to broaden the number of terms used to define things, as it can make less likely misinterpretation...
But I am impatient and intensely playful. And I don't want to always understand something so clearly right away. It's boring and cuts down the number of possible absurdities I can create. 
Learning through folly can be fun if we are careful about it.
Let's just take it slow and have some good laughs.
We'll live longer. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/11/2008 10:55:02 PM | agapis
you worship Einstein and Darwin. No...we...don't. What makes you say such a foolish lie? You're the one who worships, not us. Hypocrisy as well as lies, nice.
yet neither were atheists, lol. Nobody claimed they were, lol.
they were NOT ATHEISTS. Captain obvious strikes again, lol.
you guys get so touchy about the fact that these brilliant men didnt actually share your dogmatism. You mean the dogmatism we have none of and you have spoon fed to you regularly from the pulpit? More hypocrisy, keep up the good work. You're setting a great example. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/12/2008 8:32:53 AM |
You mean the dogmatism we have none of
you mean like the scientific community?
1970's "scientists" scoffed at the idea life could exist in the deepest oceans. And I don't just mean by saying 'well it isn't proven so until we have evidence we won't believe it' the idea was ridiculed. (that's just one example of many).
there is a lot of dogmatism in the scientific community, admittedly nowhere near as bad as certain religious beliefs. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/12/2008 8:55:52 AM | rockondon: Such a dogmatic reply! I wish they had an "irony" icon on here. Too funny. 
Seriously, if you insist that science and scientist, and atheism and atheists, have no dogmatic persons in their ranks, you are being so... well, dogmatic!
Examples of the scientific community being dogmatic abound, and there are plenty that claim the label "atheist" who are dogmatic, and some who are more dogmatic than any "believer" I've ever met. In an ideal world Science would be "zero dogmatic", but it's not an ideal world. The humans keep getting in the way. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/12/2008 6:45:46 PM | Maybe every person is bound to see that within the system that created them all, there are recognizable patterns leading to predictable outcomes, only Atheists refuse to attribute human qualities to it all.
While religions personify these qualities because humanity is a part of the system, and human behaviour is reflective of the system, so the best way to relate to people these qualities would be various personifications of them.
Maybe some people are most interested in proving where we came from. Some people more interested in proving where we should be. And some people more interested in proving where we could be. That we all wish to know on some level all those things, it's just we prioritize them and display them differently.
Even native American cultures have ways of observing and defining behaviours in ways that allow them to be predicted. The variables and relationships are simply attributed to animal totems.
I don't even believe anyone is wrong or right anymore.
Maybe we are all just exploring the truths in different ways, and should stop fighting over the methods and start collaborating over our findings. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/19/2008 12:32:31 PM | And that's where science come's in to the picture to prof what is real what is not to also teach us with new finding's how are world was created and how we revolved through billions of years like the dinosour's befor us so who know's with what we will learn in are generation's to come .
Every one has a differnt believe in what god they choose to worship or what church they choose to belong to but in my opion is that no matter what i believe science is the key of finding the truth with computer's ect.
The key factor in this is that every one has a differnt reason and believe where we came from but it dont realy matter because it a never ending story people are still going to say there in the right and judge other's if they have a differt point of view and it's been going on for 2,000 year's or more now.But exploring the truths is to base it on fact to proof it did happend not what's written in book's that's where science take's over . | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/19/2008 1:23:31 PM | 1970's "scientists" scoffed at the idea life could exist in the deepest oceans. And I don't just mean by saying 'well it isn't proven so until we have evidence we won't believe it' the idea was ridiculed. (that's just one example of many).
And they just stopped all research did they? It didn't matter that the idea was scoffed at... It had to be researched in order for them to debunk the idea which they were unable to do... And in fact, by trying to debunk it, they proved it.
This shows that although some scientists can be dogmatic, science itself cannot be... If it were, we wouldn't know about this new found life.
Examples of the scientific community being dogmatic abound, and there are plenty that claim the label "atheist" who are dogmatic, and some who are more dogmatic than any "believer" I've ever met.
I've met some dogmatic atheists as well.
In an ideal world Science would be "zero dogmatic", but it's not an ideal world. The humans keep getting in the way.
I beg to differ here... Human emotion can only hinder the scientific method for so long... Science is about proof... Proof cannot be dogmatic.
Human dogma can only sway the scientist, not the findings... Peer review recovers any tampering every time. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/19/2008 5:10:31 PM | andy7372
you mean like the scientific community? uh, no, I mean like atheists. Not all atheists are scientists u know.
romanticoptimist
rockondon: Such a dogmatic reply! I wish they had an "irony" icon on here. Too funny.
Seriously, if you insist that science and scientist, and atheism and atheists, have no dogmatic persons in their ranks, you are being so... well, dogmatic! Lol. I said nothing about science or scientists - why do fundies draw the correlation that atheists = scientists? I never said there are no dogmatic atheists. What I'm saying is that atheism does not enforce dogma. As an atheist there is no dogma, no tenets, no doctrine, no unfounded claims of any kind being forced down my throat. Although I can accept dogma from other belief systems I adopt, atheism gives me none. If you think my reply is dogmatic - you don't know the meaning of the word. And if you don't have the tools to discern the word 'atheist' from 'scientist', you don't know the meanings of those words either.
Examples of the scientific community being dogmatic abound Examples of scientists overturning old theories and common beliefs abound - this would not be true if the scientific community were dogmatic. Scientists are constantly trying to prove each other wrong - that is the kind of scrutiny the helps make one right. The examples that I've seen concerning dogmatic scientists are poor - usually involving some fool trying to push non-science into a science arena and crying about dogmatism when it doesn't pass peer-review. How dogmatic of them to do their job instead of letting shoddiness and incompetence pass peer-review.
The most dogma I've seen in one group lays in the hands of creationists. The least amount of dogma I've seen in one group is in the scientific community - where evidence is made public, everything is open for refutation and being proven wrong is as exciting as being proven right. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/19/2008 5:23:32 PM | I can make a logical error for you:
It is true religious people have the capacity to reason
and,
it is true religious people have conversations
ergo,
religious people have reasonable conversations. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:58:46 PM |
I can make a logical error for you:
It is true religious people have the capacity to reason
and,
it is true religious people have conversations
ergo,
religious people have reasonable conversations.
They can indeed have reasonable conversations... just not about anything even remotely to do with religion. That's when the "intellectual; dishonesty" door opens.. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:34:09 AM | I can make a logical error for you:
It is true religious people have the capacity to reason
and,
it is true religious people have conversations
ergo,
religious people have reasonable conversations quote]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
reply;
Matter of religon ~ are matters of man
Matters of spirit ~ are of God
I personally care little about religious dogma ~ it's to each his own in this area.
There is many doors that will allow you insights to matter of the spirit, religon being one. ~ The problem I find with religon is ~ the basics of understanding ~
You must learn to add and subtract before you learn to divide or multiply.
otherwise ~ you are working on pure faith. ~
In anycase ~ however you get there ~ just get there! at your own speed.
You are energy ~ you never go away ~ you only change and move about.
as far a carring on an intelligent conversation ~ My guess is presently you'd think not.
dance | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:45:09 PM | I missed an entire thread of statements on page 7.... and now that I am back am compelled to respond...
Here is what I posted and my response is below:
All I know is faith has helped me manifest much more than science has... (well outside of quantam physics) and for that alone I am a believer... though I am soooo not into dogma....Whether its my own capacity to manifest... or maybe someone is watching over me... either way I have seen and far from blindly... that faith works...
I can't think of one single time that science has provided me with a miracle to escape a tough situation!
Science may have its miracles... but its mistakes constantly overshadow. I am affiliated with science and research and know its value but I know far too well its dangers and contradictions...
When I say Manifest... Think of Quantum Physics... The secret really works... LOL
Hence why I say Whether its my ability to manifest... simply the power of thought... or someone watching over me... either way faith works. IF you were to ponder that you would see what I am saying.
Someone stated I must never get sick or have had to go to a hospital... And as a matter of fact I never get sick... And have had to fight the Medical Industry to give me the freedom to be healthy. The Health industry serves its purpose in Trauma... but allopathy itself is terribly suspect and is a profit making business. The GDP goes up 2.5 million every time a person is diagnosed with cancer.
And as a matter of fact I have three children... The third which I had in a birthing center which was the most comfortable and least intrusive, and painless... of all of them... I experienced much more discomfort and pain letting them plugged me up to all kinds of crap... invading every orifice... and epidurals and all kinds of crap they can charge my insurance for... My son was posterior in my first pregnancy and the umbilical cord was around his neck... and had I been at a busier hospital I would have been an emergency c - section... but luckily The doctor I had was able to spend the time to do the proper thing... and surgery is quite dangerous in and of itself. Did science save me and my child? And why do I find Homepathy to be more healthy and also has a much higher cure and success rate than allopathy.
And personally to be honest when its my time let it come. Maybe science should just let nature do its thing. There is much scientific evidence that Science has corrupted the fine balance that we all live in. I like to call myself a naturalist... Whatever that means... I would probably be quite happy to hunt and gather if that what it took.
The human body is the worlds greatest scientist... It is absolutely adaptable... The Human body alone irradicated the plague over the course of 200 years... without ever killing more than 25% of the population... No scientist has managed to pull that off... and if you look closely many of thier experiements trying to replace the natural way of things have been detrimental and have caused some serious repurcussions...
Science silences true science... It has unfortunately sold out...
I don't hold much faith in it anymore... Speaking of faith.
J | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:53:15 PM | thecosmicdiva, science has allowed us to fly and communicate with each other across the globe. And compared to how long life on earth has been around, science is still just a wee little fetus.
And where life on earth adapted through zerging itself senseless over millions of years, science is a little more prudent and proving to be far more practical.
Science allows us to go against the flow better.
If we never even bothered to go against the flow we'd just lie down and starve to death. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:03:35 PM | And science has become dogmatic... despite the fact that the body changes , and the environment changes, and our diet changes... Science makes religion of theories... and some are so entrenched its immutable... despite the fact that science was built on its ability to be challenged and advanced. In cancer a theory made them lots of money... and even though the theory is changing dramatically its still being treated with the old dogma. I know far too many people with Cancer today one being a close relative... and watching what chemo and radiation are doing... to a man who looked fine but had some mild discomfort... Who now has eaten in five days, is totally wacked out on morphine and has aged 20 years in two weeks... I worry if he will survive the treatment...I wonder to myself how much good it can do with things so friggin harmful... I question its intent. So when looking at science I beg you to look closely and make room for the inherent corruption that pervades industry... Don't even get me started on biotech and what it has the potential to perpetuate.
J | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:24:29 PM | Whats the point of flight if it disturbs the atmosphere and the air we breathe and causes respiratory issues, allergies, etc? Its not like anyone will be able to afford to soon anyways... and wow it seems to be getting pretty dangerous to anyways.
Let me ask you this... Would you rather drop dead at 70 or spend the last 20 years of your life trying to keep breathing? Being eperimented on... pukeing from treatment...
I opt for quality of life and natural selection. It is no longer about innovation... its about what is most profitable... and as long as that exists... science remains suspect.
And Science didn't create the internet... technology did... as far as communication and information go... and it may just be technology that unravels science.
J | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:40:40 PM | All I believe is we are of the system and our progression is simply an extension of the system's natural course. Falling back on a previous mode of selection would seem counter-productive. Especially when that system of selection was even more clumsy, more time consuming and far less inspiring of compassion, than what we are using today.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was time when the human animal would beat each other to death for even showing a sign of physical sickness. And those watching wouldn't even care.
Besides I doubt anyone would want to revert back to 3rd world country status anytime soon. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/7/2008 6:40:24 PM |
When I say Manifest... Think of Quantum Physics... The secret really works... LOL Well, it promotes positive thinking and that's what works. As for the Law of Attraction, you can pretend its true or you can pretend it has anything to do with quantum physics if you like, but that would be wishful thinking in my opinion. Also, when pseudoscience tries to bridge the gap between reality and bullshit, it often does this with vague claims about quantum physics.
And as a matter of fact I have three children... The third which I had in a birthing center which was the most comfortable and least intrusive, and painless... of all of them... I experienced much more discomfort and pain letting them plugged me up to all kinds of crap... invading every orifice... and epidurals and all kinds of crap they can charge my insurance for... Did they have other reasons for plugging that crap into you? It couldn't be to ease your pain, replace your fluids, or to prepare for complications could it? I bet if you weren't protected in this manner it would be less intrusive, but some parents are willing to endure such discomforts in order to give their baby the best possible chance.
but luckily The doctor I had was able to spend the time to do the proper thing... and surgery is quite dangerous in and of itself. Did science save me and my child? Of course. How do you think he knew how to do that procedure - from scripture?
And why do I find Homepathy to be more healthy and also has a much higher cure and success rate than allopathy. Because you hate science and are easily swayed by a placebo effect, would be my guess.
I would probably be quite happy to hunt and gather if that what it took. You can, but instead you choose to reap the benefits that science has provided.
The human body is the worlds greatest scientist... It is absolutely adaptable... If that were true there wouldn't be disease.
The Human body alone irradicated the plague over the course of 200 years... without ever killing more than 25% of the population... No scientist has managed to pull that off... So far no scientist has gone in back in time to bring that disease to the present, and then cured it, so I guess you're right.
And science has become dogmatic... despite the fact that the body changes , and the environment changes, and our diet changes... Science makes religion of theories... Such as Newton's Law of Gravity which, when it was shown to be in error, was quickly discarded and replaced with einstein's general relativity. That's what scientists try to do - prove established beliefs incorrect. For this reason it cannot be considered dogma.
And Science didn't create the internet... technology did... as far as communication and information go... and it may just be technology that unravels science. Technology is a result of science and engineering.
and if you look closely many of thier experiements trying to replace the natural way of things have been detrimental and have caused some serious repurcussions... Science has made mistakes and it has learned from them. I can't think of any ways this has been terribly detrimental, but I can think of times where science has interfered with the natural way of things. The natural way of smallpox was to kill off about half a billion people in the 20th century alone, and science got in the way of that. Science gets in the way of saving millions of lives every day that would have died naturally. Science rudely provides type 1 diabetics with insulin instead of a natural death.
But none of that matters to you does it. Because for all its accomplishments, it hasn't come up with a cure for cancer. Yet. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/8/2008 7:11:04 PM | Firstly just to let you know I work closely with many scientists, virologists, cellular biologists, and so forth who have made serious discoveries regarding several major diseases that are being misrepresented to the public because of medical and pharmacuetical interests within the mainstream scientific community... So How can you say science is not a dogma when it currently maybe not at its inception is silencing and hindering innovate research regarding major disease paradigms and possibly even distorting the threat and hypothesis of certain disease paradigms to enable them to be more profitable.
It is no longer that illusion that you are trying to present here ... and largely why I call myself a naturalist. Disease by and large in todays world can be linked to our food, water, environment, habits... not to mention the drugs they feed us.
There are scientists that claim for over a decade the theory of cancer has moved into another direction... Yet cancer is still treated with a discarded hypothesis.
In my works in both Cancer and HIV/AIDs with many researchers and scientists. I can tell you there are grave mistakes and the drugs kill more people than you know.
I am in the process of Organinizing and International Coalition For Scientific Integrity and debate in an attempt to rally many organizations to restore that glorious integrity that you speak of but let me be clear that impression is currently false. All is good and well in science as long as your not challenging industries check books... the moment you do be ready for some harsh realizations... Profit is permeating all aspects of our existence... so watch who you trust... cause quick cures are far from profitable.
So before you shoot me down as a dity hippy... get some background. You should maybe consider things that science has done wrong... that have caused serious harm... Maybe you should consider that science is currently in bed with big pharma... which I hope you are conscious enough to know is absolutely corrupt.
As for disease remember great virus hunters thought scurvy was a horrible sexual transmitted disease for aeons... how ironic orange juice could cure this horrible epidemic.
If you consider homepathy a placebo well then who needs science or medicine... just think it and its done. I have also worked with alternative medical professionals on these disease paradigms and thier results are far greater... Not to mention most of the scientists I know, not to mention my dentist and obstetrician... all consult a Naturopath...
And by the way... it was the drugs and plugs that caused the complications in my first pregnancy. | |
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| Logical errors made by Atheists
Posted: 6/8/2008 7:38:10 PM | As for third world status and getting back to our roots... If we keep suffering these slavery minded administrations you may have no choice but to be a naturalist. If we were to suffer a great depression now... Who do you think would survive in a society that is 1% Farmers... dependant on super markets and imports... and don't even get me started on the corruption of our food supply... and diet... (that along with plastics and other scientific innovations is likely a very big aspect to many of our disease issues)
Not that technology doesn't have some issues but it is not nearly as "blatently" destructive of the human race and it cleans up its messes quickly despite the fact that science often tries to slow it down because of other beliefs with entrenched profit margins. Solar power is nature and technology yet science slows it down because its not profitable...
Is Hydrogen Nature and Technology or All three?
I have still yet to see science do what the body can... Science rarely irradicates an illness that is not already in decline... then its supposed cure creates 5 other illnesses... I am well versed in vaccinations... and have seen much healthier children without them.
Natural selection is not science it is nature... and well it was natures way of dealing with other issues like population and as for the plague natures fight and creation because of the development of cities and our inability to know how to deal with our own shite when crammed together in a small space...
Is washing science or nature?
Is a toilet science or technology?
Clean water nature or science?
Our water supply is now filled with pharmacueticals... Is that nature or science?
Flouride now linked to the emergence of ADD and ADHD
Is that nature or science?
medical has some perks--- trauma and atifical hearts... but again is that science or technology?
Once again Science has done great things but from experience its mistakes outweigh them. And it doesn't seem to like to clean up its messes either.
Look at biotech, pharma, and chemicals? The Red headed step children of science... So what are you saying science invents/creates disease so that science can attempt to cure it while destroying your body... and I am supposed to hail this industry as infallible particularly now that it no longer invites scrutinous and innovatve research?
Hmmm... Sounds dogmatic to me. Sounds pretty corrupt too... Don't know if I can trust it so much... Despite my constant efforts to give voice to scientific dissenters... and organize media and platforms for true science to emerge.
For more background I have also lived in third world africa... and you would be surprised what nutrition alone can do... Is that nature or science? You would be surprised how freeing and uplifting it is to be self sustainable in a villiage... before you pity them consider our stupidty... because indigenous people have always been poisoned by our science or technology... how by destroying nature. It is our duty to preserve what sustains us... and to do that we must live more naturally.
J | |
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