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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/24/2008 1:13:20 PM | Now, there's no reason to yell.
Great work pasting the voting record. Now ask yourself what reasons one who has concentrated a lot of efforts into legislation on a topic would vote a certain way against someone else's legislation that would appear on the surface to be completely against his beliefs on the issue?
Often you will find other provisions in a bill for example covering Veteran's issues... such as grant $100 million to Halliburton for just being fine upstanding human beings... buried in there. More times than not they don't vote against the bill as much as against the pork or because there is other legislation in existence that addresses what they consider the positives of the original bill but also better addresses what is viewed as negatives in the voted upon bill. Votes other than yay or nay indicate not granting a majority in passing but also to not convey a negative on the theme of a bill.
There is soooooooo much more than just 'yes' or 'no'. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:42:53 PM | Hey Dar :)
Come on Noma ~ Ronnie Rayguns ` slashed troop strength ~
we now fight with reservist with fancy war toys ~ Close
military base all over the US ~ they need a raise.
No offense my friend, but it was the Clinton Administration who
began the decreasing our military while making the military
world wide peace keepers. I was in the military upon this occurring,
I remember it hit our military VERY hard, we were all wondering
what the Clinton Admin was smoking.
We need 300,000 boots on the ground to pull this little
adventure off. ~ we started with only 20 ~ How how $#^%(*&^%)^???
the notion that taking Bagdad and the rest would fall ~ was
completetly ~~ insane.
Absolutely. I agree, we need more troop strength however, recruitments
are down due a war going on and without a draft, I do not see this
happening. Besides, the current happenings is Bush aka...cowboy
Jr, not reagan. IF Reagan was president, this would have been taking
care of, that is if we would have went there at all.
Ronnie is credited with many nice things and many are very
deserving ~ I wish not to tarnish his image ~~ but much damage
waas donne as well ~ it's not all so wonderful in the big picture.
~ He played a mean poker hand.
Yes, he did. I can't help it, he is one of my favorite presidents
which I experienced, he was good to our community. I do feel
however that everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect
that, I do know that the Air Traffic Controllers didn't like him and
basically stated they would spit on his grave and for good reason :)
itechman:
I"m sorry about the incorrect way of writing things in this forum.
Referencing the "yelling" part, it was not implied as such I assure
you, sum it up as "forum ignorance".
Often you will find other provisions in a bill for example
covering Veteran's issues... such as grant $100 million to
Halliburton for just being fine upstanding human beings... buried
in there.
Three words for ya there......Dick aka..henchman Cheney.
I see what you are saying referencing "it's more than yes or no", I agree
with you in that aspect, however, it would be nice to view Obama
actually voting "yes or no" as compared to "nv". That is what
makes me weary of him. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:46:35 PM | Namegame:
Operation Restore Hope was a mission to protect the peace keepers in Somalia primarily as the objective. When our nation sent over the 2/75 ranger battalion along with Delta force, it was a different objective. They were sent in to literally kidnap warlords and it had nothing to do with the UN or Operation Restore Hope. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:15:01 PM | ~ Nona ~ Carwell is here ~in "Fort" Worth ~ be so forever ~ B52's ~ home of then stratcom ~
down sizing started ~ under Regan ~ Remeber, "let's get the government off the peoples back" and he started slashing ~ and cutting. ~
the base is still active ~ pehaps at 5 % of what it was ~
I was raising children back then ~ it killed the city ~ Carwell what a big part of our town ~ took forever to get over it ~ actually~ we never have ~ a ghost town in compairson. ~ hundreds and hundreds of empty house hitting the market all at once ~
Food Store wth no shoppers.
Federal money cut off like a light switch ~ trust me on this one, I know when it was.
down sizing was the catch phrase of the day ~ across the nation.
I understand your warm feeling for Regan ~ he had that way about him ~ he was a great man ~ and not a bad president ~ he'd been better yet if he had been younger and could go without naps. ~ We get older, thats hard to do. ~ The first chair is not an easy job.
This is a consern I hear from people regarding Mc Cain ~ the 2 nd chair position worries many ~ is it to be someone, that picks up the banner and continues where 43 left off? We don't know the answer to this question. ~dar
Clinton pruned ~ Regan slashed | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 6:04:36 AM | OK Nona
I checked out your link:
I do know some veterans have brought up this point. McCain's stance
on torture makes sense to me, even though I will admit, I support
torturing known terrorists or the enemy to gain information. McCain
has indeed been tortured. He is not some "wet behind the ear" politician
who is merely speaking. McCain has been to "torture school" and
even got the T-shirt. His stance is that it is a horrible thing
and it is not humane. I agree with McCain on this topic however,
I still support torturing. Even in stating this, who am I? I have
never been tortured, McCain has, I do feel overall, he has more
warrant into the situation than I do.
I do not view his stance on torture as a sell out but merely someone
who is against torture, period.
McCain has voiced openly his views on torture. He does not support
it, therefore, I do not understand where your information is
coming from, no offense.
McCain fought to have the interrogations limited. Here is the act.
http://www.pegc.us/detainee_act_2005.html
One can view for themselves that this act provides humane treatment
for people who more than likely do not deserve it.
This Act plainly states that If Bush deems torture necessary, then torture the person and that as long as Bush, or his designated Hench men authorise the torture then the soldier or official commiting it will be safe from prosecution, and civil penalties.
We all know how right Bush has been on every other issue, so why not trust him when he says to beat and waterboard a detainee? Remember we found WMD in Iraq, we were greeted as liberators, Iraq has become a democracy like the USA, the economy is doing great, we have more jobs, tax breaks for the top trickled down to the middleclass and poor, and we brought Bin Laden to justice dead or alive. :rolleyes:
I wonder How McCain would have felt if he knew Ho Chi Ming created the a similar bill concerning the North Viet Com's treatment of American POW's during Vietnam........... ????
Theres no excuse for torture, in no way, fashion, or form. PERIOD.
And since when should we decide who deserves to be tortured and who doesnt????? | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 6:18:59 AM | tax breaks for the top.
I love liberal myth. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 12:19:28 PM | Dar:
When Clinton took office, his admin slashed our military 15%.more than
the previous administration. The Clinton Defense team did not do a good job at maintaining
military morale. US troops due to this were overworked and with
the military pay raises that were once enjoyed under the Reagan
Administration stopped, all were underpaid. I never ONCE viewed a soldier
on welfare until Clinton became president.
The military actually flourished in under the presidency of Ronald Reagan,
with the exception of the National Guard which was indeed downsized.
Reagan increased the military budget as a whole. This was due
to the threat of the Soviet Union. This money allotted to our military
was utilized for new technology as well as new training sites and
many other things. One of the new national training sites which
came about due to this is Fort Irwin California for desert training.
Reagain in 1979 had increased our Airforce to include the Air Guard
from approximately give or take a few 93,000 people to 117,000 people,
give or take a few. The number of units increased as well from
from approximately 1100 to 1340. I would not think this is downsizing,
this as history shows us is a build up.
Therefore, once again...the Clinton Administration is what devastated
our military while downsizing and placing them all around the world and
do not forget all the budget cuts the Clinton Administration bestowed
upon our military. Military housing was a forgotten issue and enlisted military
families were living in what resembled "The Ghetto".
Therefore, I have to disagree about Reagan downsizing our military,
I find this impossible to believe due to the threat of Russia and the
HUGE buildup within Germany and Europe as a whole. It was Clinton
who due to his budget cuts posts began closing and military posts
were becoming ghost towns, NOT reagan.
Reagan pruned...Clinton slashed.
Blacksheep:
<div class="quote"> wonder How McCain would have felt if he knew Ho Chi Ming
created the a similar bill concerning the North Viet Com's
treatment of American POW's during Vietnam..
So you are suggesting that McCain should care how his enemy who broke
broke both his legs as well as made him stand in water naked while
leeches were sucking the blood out of him should care? I'm sorry,
I'm chuckling on that one.
Of course the president has the power to deem what you have shown
to us here. McCain has spoken openly about treating enemy combatants
or anyone humanely. Realistically, even McCain knows that dire times
do call for dire measures, he's been there done that. Just because
he was brave and heroic enough not to talk no matter what they did
to him, he knows not everyone can withstand as such. I actually
admire his stance on torture, and it's obvious he is against it.
I personally support torture, for who else are we going to achieve
information from people such as terrorists who's main goal is to
die anyways? I say if it takes hanging them from the room while cutting
them with a dull rusty knife to gain information that can save lives,
I say do it. End of story. Yes, I know, I'm harsh :)
I do however respect your opinion and your stance. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 12:36:40 PM | | Yeah but were not in a war, were in an invasion and a hostile take over of a country that did nothing to us. McCain has vowed to keep up the fight until " victory" meaning total conquest. So if he treats an innocent country that way that says it all. Reagan was under threat of war with the former USSR, were under threat of no country. I sure hipe you have seen combat to be so self rightous and sure about war. BECAUSE IF YOU HAVENT BEEN IN IT, YOU DONT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO AN OPINION ABOUT IT. So shut your mouth unless you yourself have double tapped someone. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 12:40:50 PM | Me shut my mouth? Are you going to jump through the computer and make me? lol Yes, that sounded just as ridiculous as your statement.
I find your sexism and ignorance outright funny. :) I am a war veteran, therefore, i have every right to speak what I speak in reference to war, same as anyone else who is not a war veteran can speak their opinion, therefore piggy...get over yourself. :)
Yes, I support war. I have made this obvious numerous times. What I do not support is Obama and Billary. I have made this clear as well. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 12:48:01 PM |
BECAUSE IF YOU HAVENT BEEN IN IT, YOU DONT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO AN OPINION ABOUT IT
I apply this to myself. There are some things so beyond my ability to relate. But I won't tell someone else what it is to which they do and don't have a right. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 1:45:47 PM | | Same here itechman. I may not like someone's opinion, but they have every right to state whatever they want to state. It's their right in most countries. :) | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:23:33 PM | The way I look at it Nona, we all disagree and sometimes we lose touch with our manners at times.
But my parents were Golden Rule types and taught me that none of us are better than anyone else. My dad and I spent a lot of time together when he forced me to help in his garden and he had a lot of really neat sayings. Some that comes to mind is "Self-righteous arrogance is a mental illness" and "If anyone was better than another, then that person would have cured cancer by now". | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:28:54 PM | | my parents always told me that I was no better than anyone else. then they asked me why I was slacking and forced me to work harder, and study harder. no offense to nona, but you look really bad in photo #3. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:39:35 PM | no offense to nona, but you look really bad in photo #3.
No offense taken :) lol
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:42:31 PM | | Okay, I looked at photo #3. The low self-esteem that day might have been warranted. lol | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:55:05 PM | that picture was taken of me when Bill Clinton was in office. Obviously his presidency very much affected me.
If Hillary is elected, I"m scared of that image returning. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 2:56:32 PM | Your a war veteran than never mind what I said fair nuff. Sexism? Yeah, women have no place in politics or war, too emotional. And when they try to act stoic and manly, blah, may as well be gay. If you have been to war then you know how irritating it is when someone who hasnt pulled the trigger thinks they can even begin to understand what is involved. Ignorance? naw Im not ignorant about the whats going on in the middle east, in the least. I have many people on the ground there right now both active duty and contractors and they all know exactly why they are there. Im not going to engage you in a battle between your neo con position and the truth, it been done no one is buying were in a war against a tactic, ( terror ). Go on and support McBush, not that much different the than the other two as far as the real issues of America are concerned. Still just another globalist goon, pro-authoritarian dictatorship under the guise of security, pro-a fiat money system, anti personal freedom, the list goes on. And if your as smart as you try and come across, which you really cant be if your a neo con, you will talk yourself into anything you want to belive. Good luck finding love if you cant even love truth. We invaded for no reason, and have killed thousands for no reason. If you cant acknowlage that truth, then I hope your rationalization, justification, and denial powers serve you well. Your gonna need em. Cause the this cluster f uck over there it just to damn obvious anymore... | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 3:09:02 PM | Runnin Riot:
Sexism? Yeah, women have no place in politics or war, too
emotional.
This is a very sexist statement. I do not want to turn this into
a pissing contest with you, but your statement is not only sexist
but stereotypical. I obviously do not agree with you. You obviously haven't
met a woman such as myself and yes, there are many more women such
as myself out there. Not all women are the same, men can be construed
as too emotional as well.
And when they try to act stoic and manly, blah, may as
well be gay.
Most men construe strong women as trying to be manly. To me that
is within itself a sexist statement for are only men allowed to
be strong? A strong woman does not have to replicate a man in order
to be strong.
If you have been to war then you know how irritating it is
when someone who hasnt pulled the trigger thinks they can even
begin to understand what is involved.
I agree with this believe it or not. In stating this, I still believe
everyone whether they are war veterans are not are most definitely
entitled to their opinions.
Go on and support McBush
I did not vote for Bush. You should stop assuming :)
And if your as smart as you try and come across, which you
really cant be if your a neo con, you will talk yourself into
anything you want to belive.
I am not a neo-con however, I'm a realist. Yes, there is a difference.
Good luck finding love if you cant even love truth.
More than likely the only truth you know in reference to this situation
is what you perceive as the truth from our media. You state you have
friends on the ground in theater, first off...I hope they make it
back safely, secondly....how can you pretend to know what is going
on when you have not been there yourself? I do find you being
very hypocritical here. The truth is definitely out there but
it will not be found at a anti-war protest, I wish more people realized
this.
Speaking of strong women.....I will not vote for Hillary Clinton but
I must say to the positive of this woman, she is most definitely
a strong woman and she has proved herself very much a force to be
reckoned with against the Obama campaign. I'm' sure Obama underestimated
her as well due to the fact she is a woman, he has quickly discovered
that women are very much capable of being a politician. THere are
many women who are politicians, obviously negative comments from
sexist pigs never stopped them from achieving their goals. I'm proud
of Hillary as being a strong woman but I will not vote for her
for president. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 3:59:59 PM | Being a realist you would have never taken on England in the battle for independence.
Here I found a little news clip from your fellow realist~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w39FnpuMRfo
Yep, your a neo con if you support the war in Iraq, end of story...
And to the foolish who think hillary obama are any different save some very insignificant tabloid drivel your wrong...Its one party with two faces... | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 4:59:17 PM |
No offense my friend, but it was the Clinton Administration who
began the decreasing our military while making the military
world wide peace keepers
You sure that didn't start with G..H.W. Bush
during the first gulf war. Moreover, Clinton’s cuts in the military, while large, were nowhere close to 25 percent to 30 percent. Between 1993 and 2001, the Army went from 572,423 to 480,801, which is a decline of 16 percent. The entire military went from 1,705,103 to 1,385,116, a decrease of 18.8 percent.
Compare that with the far larger cuts made during the first Bush administration: In 1989, the military stood at 2,130,229 and the Army had 769,741 soldiers. By 1993, those numbers had declined by 19.9 percent and 25.6 percent, respectively.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nh_debate_the_gop_field.html
Anyway, getting back to the subject of Hillary Clinton cutting the military, after hearing her response in the last debate about protecting Israel, she might just increase troop levels. I do believe we need a strong military, but we need one to protect our country, not impose a presidents will. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 5:09:04 PM | Nona
"Judge not lest ye be judged for with the same measure you will be judged"
"He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword"
Sorry I cant for a second condone anything you say about torture, and Bush is a president, not a Fuhrur. He should follow the laws, not make it so he can subvert then when and how he see's fit.
I wonder if you would feel so strongly about the tactics you promote here if you were arrested in a foreign country and deemed a terrorist spy by their government?
BTW McCain broke his legs and one arm during the ejection from his A4 fighter jet after being hit by a S.A.M.
Coincidently the Viet Com saved his life from the towns people he just finished bombing before being hit and parachuting into their town square fountain.
So Technically McCain wouldnt be alive to run for president or to have even been tortured if it wasnt for the "Enemy". | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 6:02:42 PM | cougar99:
You sure that didn't start with G..H.W. Bush
Actually cougar, I think you and I can compromise here due to the
fact that Bush Sr did indeed sign the legislation to implement
downsizing but it was the Clinton Administration who implemented
it :)
Anyway, getting back to the subject of Hillary Clinton
cutting the military, after hearing her response in the last
debate about protecting Israel, she might just increase troop
levels. I do believe we need a strong military, but we need one to
protect our country, not impose a presidents will.
I do agree with protecting Israel. This is a good point
that Hillary made obviously in my eyes but did she actually
state how this could be performed? More than likely no, Hillary
is unfortunately so liberal, same as Obama that neither would take
their own side during a quarrel. Anyone can suggest an idea, what
I want to know is "how"?
Runnin Riot:
That's ok, call me a neo-con, I've been called worse. That is your
opinion same as mine that I think you're a sexist pig who has no clue
to the true issues at hand.
Blacksheep:
You do not have to be sorry for your stance on torture. YOU oppose
it, I however support it. We stand on two very different sides
of the fence. I respect your stance.
So Technically McCain wouldnt be alive to run for
president or to have even been tortured if it wasnt for the
"Enemy".
While you are at it Blacksheep, why not thank the Japanese for
the great weight loss plan they bestowed upon our troops upon forcing
our troops who were their prisoners of wars to walk in the Bataan
Death March! Sorry, but what you stated is just ridiculous! | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/25/2008 8:05:05 PM | Nona, ^^^^^^^^^
Remember, You're the one who condones torture, not me.
or is torture only allowed in your mind when its preformed by Americans, and not when Americans are the victom's of torture themselves.
As far as the viet com goes, the facts are the facts, if were not for the Com interviening, the towns people would have continued to beat McCain to death in that fountain.
They saved him to use as fodder for political propaganda, and tortured him anyways, but the alternative was surely a slow death by beating.
Nothing rediculous about that. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/26/2008 2:05:15 AM | Blacksheep:
YOu do bring up some good points. In fact, you just reminded me of a book that McCain wrote. "Character Is Destiny". In this book, McCain does document a Vietcong Soldier who did aid him actually. He never talked to McCain, but he did however at night while on guard duty loosen his ropes which bound him among other things. McCain refers to him in his book as "The Good Samaritan". McCain was shown evidence by this particular Viet Cong soldier that he was a christian. Here's a link to an excerpt from the book.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/180/story_18033_1.html
I must admit blacksheep, that yes, prisoners of wars are ALWAYS utilized for propaganda, you are correct there. McCain was utilized for this by Vietnam, and many of our troops and civilians during this ongoing war have been utilized as such. So in all actuality, you are correct Blacksheep, McCain would have more than likely died in that waterfountain at the hands of the locals. I tend to get very defensive in those instances, I did not read into everything which was stated by you, nonetheless, what you say is correct, there is no disputing that McCain was saved by the Vietcong to enable their propaganda campaign, along with other military personnel as well during the war.
Referencing torture. I do not believe any nation likes when their own personnel is tortured. However, referencing our own nation, I feel that information has to be gained at times and sometimes torture is the only way. If torture was not effective, it would not be utilized. I do not "like" torture but one would be very naive to state that our nation should not utilize it to gain information, for speaking nicely to the enemy does not work, unfortunately, other nations agree with this analogy.
Since you do not support torture, please recommend something that could be utilized in place of torture. I would be interested in reading your suggestions. | |
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| Hilary Clinton....
Posted: 4/26/2008 2:35:18 AM | Nona
Torture has been shown to be not that effective , here is an example
Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."
Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit.
From an article in the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html | |
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