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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 11:25:54 AM |
What's yer point? Do you have one?
Yes
And I can actually read.
Wikipedia,at least to me,is the constant revision of everything by people not involved with anything.
And people relying on that for reference just scares the hell out of me. | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 11:40:06 AM |
What's yer point? Do you have one?
Yes
And I can actually read.
Wikipedia,at least to me,is the constant revision of everything by people not involved with anything. And people relying on that for reference just scares the hell out of me.
Understood, which is why I posted so many other examples of early Christian and Biblical barbarities -- possibly more relevant to the issue than Charlemagne!
I do LOTs of research in my work and find wikipedia is pretty good -- especially because anything questionable always has a disclaimer on top.
Thanks for clarifying. | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 11:43:57 AM |
bearded_romantic
As an atheist myself, and former school board member, I agree 100%.
While I'm no atheist, your the first person on this thread who actually read and understood what I meant...
So does everyone else.
I wished that were so? However, it's not the typical vast number of religious people who are the problem, nor is it the mindful non-religious sect. It's these over zealot religious ones and the Anti-religious who are the problem. Most people religious or non-relgious don't have a problem with moments of silence to honor a loss, or religious documents written as part of human history being seen by students in a classroom, saying the word merry Christmas during the hoilday season, or respecting the ideas and customs of others...
I think you've seen the poor attitude of several Anti-religious posters already in this thread and how little respect they have for others. It's not their goal to live in harmony with others don't be fooled by their words. They are the true savages and destroyers of culture and society. Honorable Athiest and religious people don't try to ban one another but honor each others beliefs...
There is no (federal) prohibition against teaching religion. Only practicing it. That is so correct yet, the "Evil" continues on all fronts to sanitize everything. They want to tell people what to eat, what to wear, what to learn, who to speak with, etc,... They are the enemy to all who are religious and non-religious.
I'm a big fan of the teachings of Gandhi but differ with him on some the aspects such as self-defense. Sometimes war can not be avoided and what good does it do a culture to honor it's pricipals if those principals are lost in that cultures own extermination. To murder is wrong but to kill is not, especially if that killing is to prevent your own murder.
bearded_romantic It is without question your intellegent even if we might disagree from time to time. I just wanted to extend my respects in kind to show others that thoughtful minds from opposite sides of the religious issue can seek a compromise when respect is sought. It's only the Anti-religious and over zealot religious that seek no common ground.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 12:18:58 PM |
So does everyone else.
I wished that were so
Me too! I should have said "so does the Supreme Court" -- but it was too late to edit my posting.
However, it's not the typical vast number of religious people who are the problem, nor is it the mindful non-religious sect. It's these over zealot religious ones and the Anti-religious who are the problem
You've given this a lot of thought, and are scrupulously fair. On dating sites where it fits, I describe myself as "Non-religious but not anti-religious. I respect anyone who has values and lives them on a daily basis."
And I constantly defend the majority of Christians, even conservative and fundamentalist ones -- who DO NOT try to impose their values on others.
It's not just religion. As a libertarian politically, I can see how government is increasingly a tool for imposing ones values on others, by force.
I'm a big fan of the teachings of Gandhi but differ with him on some the aspects such as self-defense. Sometimes war can not be avoided and what good does it do a culture to honor it's pricipals if those principals are lost in that cultures own extermination. To murder is wrong but to kill is not, especially if that killing is to prevent your own murder.
BINGO! Also true for Islam, if you can find a good book or course on comparative religions ... free of the shrill bigotry we hear today.
The oft-quoted violence in the Koran is self-defense -- historically, a counterpoint to Christ's "turn the other cheek". The passage on slaying all the infidels, a bit bloody by current standards, applies if the infidels attack the temple! The rest is mostly an attempt to define all the situations where self-defense is appropriate -- as you say in the part I haven't quoted. But like the Old Testament, many of those Koran examples have no DIRECT application in modern times -- so we see Muslim extremists for basically the same reasons that we see Christian extremists.
Despite their often loony national spokespersons, most Christian conservatives/fundamentalists/evangelicals have no problem with Separation of Church and State ... simply because their own denomination was persecuted at some time in history. By the state.
Enjoyed our chat.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 4:28:40 PM |
"so does the Supreme Court"
How long until that collection of balance is overun?
The more I learn of history and just witnessing how they've overstepped their authority or unwillingness to observe the Constitution, in my lifetime has shaken my confindence in their crediablity...
You've given this a lot of thought, and are scrupulously fair. On dating sites where it fits, I describe myself as "Non-religious but not anti-religious. I respect anyone who has values and lives them on a daily basis.
Thanks but I didn't really have to spend a great deal of time in knowing what was the right thing to do. I feel that it's pretty obvious if you respect others then the vast majority will return it in kind... I've never seen anything wrong with the non-religious it's only the Anti-religious and Zealots that should concern everyone. I believe a lot of people get the non-religious & Anti-religious confused with one another, but believe me there is a great vast difference between the two. A religious person has nothing to fear from a non-religious person and vice versa. It's only the Zealots and Anti-religious that are a threat.
Where I grew up there was a large Mennonite population (Think of them as Amish with cars) and while as kids we saw them as a bit odd (meaning different). Since they wore black a lot and all the girls wore long dresses and the boys wore those sugar loaf hats. They practiced their own style of religious faith but they was the best citizens in the community. You never saw them fighting or a police officer arresting one of them unlike other members of the community. I learned there was much good to be said of those people and never once did we think we should try and impose a different set of values on them. If anything it was we that should have been learning from them they were always very helpful, kind, and sincere. But, there was always those "Evil" that would say or do anything to hummilate them.
The oft-quoted violence in the Koran is self-defense
Very accurate!
historically, a counterpoint to Christ's "turn the other cheek". The passage on slaying all the infidels, a bit bloody by current standards, applies if the infidels attack the temple!
And would we not do the same relgious and non-relgious if a group of people done the same to a church of any denomination here in America? Of couse we would what the Koran is saying isn't anything murderous it's self-defense of one's cultural idenity.
The rest is mostly an attempt to define all the situations where self-defense is appropriate
Does not the Old Testament say "He soth attack my flock, I shall attack" or something along that lines? Maybe a Bible expert will step in an clairfy the exact wording?
Despite their often loony national spokespersons, most Christian conservatives/fundamentalists/evangelicals have no problem with Separation of Church and State ... simply because their own denomination was persecuted at some time in history. By the state.
I believe that's why so many people of all walks of life had a deep respect for Billy Graham and people like Jimmy Swaggart was not respected. Mr. Graham while extremely commited to his beliefs didn't attemt to impose his beliefs on others. He left it up to you to come to him and if necessary he could have lunch with you never uttering a word about religion and instead talk about anything but... I believe that's why people liked him? We seldom see a preacher these days that acts so honoably...
Nevertheless, neither you nor I are ever going to get the Zealots and the Anti-religious to admit how truely vindictive they are. It would defeat their agenda if the truth was placed out there for all to see. | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 6:31:45 PM |
The rest is mostly an attempt to define all the situations where self-defense is appropriate
Does not the Old Testament say "He soth attack my flock, I shall attack" or something along that lines? Maybe a Bible expert will step in an clairfy the exact wording?.
Close enough.
Deut 13 has God ordering the immediate slaying of all followers of other prophets ... including your own spouse and children!
And in handing down the ten commandments, we see that unbelievers shall be punished unto the third generation.
Even the Koran is not THAT barbaric.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 10:06:58 PM | Topgear1 in msg. #11:
The non-religious always like to use that as an example but like to overlook the true meaning. That admendment wasn't put into the Constitution to give the anti-religious a reason to omit religion from public veiw. If that were the case then it would have been clearly corrected by the founding fathers long ago. Even in their time they saw no reason to remove the religious art or words from governmental places, public schools (Which were often Churches) if the intent of that admendment was to omit religion altogether. However, that's preciesly what the non-religious are trying to mislead the public into believing today. Misleading the truth is what evil people do so therefore the non-religious are "EVIL" in my opinion. What the non-religious don't like is one of their own pointing this reality out...
[Quoting me (Wherefore):] "Get a grip, sir."
Open your eyes!
I smile, not wanting to be left out of the peaceful and reasonable resolution that seems to have occurred here in this thread.
First off, thanks to the wise and Bearded one! I applaud your public service on the school board. Your fine knowledge of and experience with the issues at hand have really helped us all here. I am wondering, however, if the community you served was aware of your atheism during your election run. When Bill Bradley's was hinted at, well, he didn't last long in the presidential sweepstakes. But that's another topic...
I, another utterly nonmilitant atheist, would hate to leave a mischaracterization of myself lingering in the air here. Again, to Bearded, I would that I had your ability to present such a rational argument. Thank you for doing it. Nonetheless, in defense of my own, er, honor, I guess.... ....and that of the generally quiet and unknown many atheists among us:
* I lived in the southern "Bible Belt" for many years. I raised my son there. When he was in first grade I spoke up a few times from the audience at the PTA meetings, clarifying an innocuous issue or two. Before the end of the school year I was approached by the outgoing president and a couple of teachers, asking me to accept the following year's presidency. I was somewhat intimidated, frankly, by the thought of standing up and running the meetings and all. I was strongly encouraged and groomed so as to be hardly able to decline. They needed me for lack of anyone else to do it.
So, my son's second-grade year was one of great personal growth for me! I was quite nervous about the whole thing over the summer. Without ever stating that I was an atheist I simply substituted a moment of silence in place of my predecessor's "PTA Prayer" when I opened the meetings. That wasn't too radical or "evil" of me, was it?
* When my boy hit third grade, well, I was drafted to be the Cub Scout Den Leader. I had to admit, I had to chuckle when my Assistant Den Leader and good friend told me that the Cub Scout Sunday service in our sponsoring Episcopal Church seemed "spooky" to her, with the priest and processional participants in robes carrying candles in brass fixtures up the aisle. I myself rather enjoyed the solemnity of it. My friend said she much preferred the less formal service of her own church where people "act happy and clap their hands and all."
That year I ended up leading the scout group in singing Christmas carols on our holiday outing. I was glad we had the lyrics on paper handouts because I had forgotten them over the years. I was hoping one of the other parents would lead the singing, again, out of nervousness and discomfort. But when one daddy seemed disgusted that I didn't step forward, I did it.
* Fourth grade came and I, still Den Leader, was thrown for a loop over helping the boys to work on the "God and Country" badge. Uh-oh! I wasn't sure what to do about that one. Fortunately, my new Lutheran Assistant Den Leader was happy to oblige! Whew!
All those years my son never knew I was an atheist. He learned when my mother told him around his thirteenth birthday. She was trying to shame me in front of him, at the same time also making sure he knew that his dear old ma had once been a smoker of marijuana. Sheesh! Some people's parents!
All those years I also kept a large, beautifully illustrated copy of the Bible in our home. I remember on Palm Sunday one year explaining to my son what it signified on the Christian calendar, and showing him the full-color page with Christ mounted on the donkey. I"m proud to tell you that my son, precocious boy that he was, read that entire Bible. Now in his twenties, he has decided for himself that he is a Deist.
* While I was regularly attending meetings of Pittsburgh Secular Humanists in the 1990's Billy Graham came to speak at Three Rivers Stadium. I told my group I'd attend to listen respectfully to what he had to say. I had to report back of my disappointment in the audience when Rev. Graham blasted in a single sentence the evil influences of "satanists and secular humanists!"
Oh, blah, blah, blah! Suffice it to say, Topgear, my eyes are wide open! And I will continue to defend the separation of church and state in the United States of America. By the way, my 1970's Army dogtags specified "NRP": No Religious Preference. If called upon, I would've fought and died to defend this "sacred" way of life.
So next week, may you all have a joyous Passover! | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/13/2008 11:42:15 PM |
First off, thanks to the wise and Bearded one! I applaud your public service on the school board. Your fine knowledge of and experience with the issues at hand have really helped us all here. I am wondering, however, if the community you served was aware of your atheism during your election run. .
I forgot how much of the story I had posted here. Yes it was known. And that's the best part -- my best backers were Christian conservatives, and they always ask.
I was "with them" on several major issues -- like Back to Basics. I called it Core Curriculum to avoid being pigeon-holed as a conservative.
On a similar note, I was known in the area as an advocate of drug legalization. When that came up as an issue, I said I was one of those who thought the Drug War was targeted at inner-city blacks -- anyone who disagreed was free to call the cops on all the open drug dealing, after school, in our own high school parking lot. Our own kids. It never came up again!
I am SO glad I "outed myself" here .... (as an atheist, silly). Your story made my entire week. And the moment of silence was sheer genius.
Nice to see how you excel at Fellowship!
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/14/2008 12:00:03 AM |
The point is made by Ms. Kersten, if this were a Christian school it would no longer exist.
I'm amazed how many of our posters --- that sailed right over their head, in their rush to condemn the reporter. The Inquisition mentality lives on.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/14/2008 12:50:40 AM | Reponse #2
I am wondering, however, if the community you served was aware of your atheism during your election run..
I posted the following in the thread on PC, which also seems appropriate here. A general question suggested it was impossible for an atheist to be elected to public office.
--
I am an atheist ... elected to a school board ... in the midwest ... by a VERY large margin ... along with a slate I recruited ... after defeating 8 school levies in a row.
My biggest supporters were Christian Fundamentalists. I defended their right to excuse their kids from "objectionable" classroom content, but rejected any power to dictate any of that content ... and they gave me all the money and volunteers I needed.
Knowing I was an atheist. (I told them)
(Most fundies are a lot more tolerant than most of their crackpot extremists and public leaders.)
At the time, the Supreme Court had ruled, wisely, that after-school religious clubs were okay, but only if they were treated the same as non-religious clubs. But our administration -- the ones we were elected to fire (and did) -- chose to instead cancel all after-school clubs!
When it came to a vote, I objected strongly. The Superintendent started babbling about "some people will find it objectionable...." after-school religious clubs. So I leaned into my microphone, raised my hand, and asked loudly, "Anyone else here willing to admit being an atheist ........... (turning to the Superintendent) ... seeing no other hands raised, then I will tell you what is objectionable, you will not tell me."
"I will not vote to cancel after-school chess, math, drama and science clubs, punishing 18% of our high school students .... just to stop a few kids in Hi-Y from saying a prayer now and then. Sounds to me like a reverse Inquisition."
I got a standing ovation and the proposal was unanimously defeated. Of course.
But when those same Christians wanted to ban HALLOWEEN witches from the school, as supposedly representing witchcraft(???), I took the lead in speaking against them and defeated it. And they were fine with that. They got a fair hearing, and they had prevailed in the give and take of many other issues critical to them ... along with everyone else in town.
All this is to support Ace's statement about forgetting the labels, like liberal and conservative, and just working on things together.
Yep. It works!
I can also testify that very few Fundamentalists really want to rule anything, despite what we hear from their leaders and more extreme followers. They just want to be ... acknowledged ... the same as everyone else. The same as you and I.
Political Correctness -- from the left OR the right (leaderships) -- is mostly intended to keep us from working together -- so we toe the line, and keep giving money and power to those leaderships.
That's a recipe for division, not achievement.
Remember the song: There ain't no good guys. There ain't no bad guys. There's just you and me, and we just disagree.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 4/14/2008 8:55:38 AM |
Wherefore art thou
When I said:
"The non-religious always like to use that as an example but like to overlook the true meaning. That admendment wasn't put into the Constitution to give the anti-religious a reason to omit religion from public veiw. If that were the case then it would have been clearly corrected by the founding fathers long ago. Even in their time they saw no reason to remove the religious art or words from governmental places, public schools (Which were often Churches) if the intent of that admendment was to omit religion altogether. However, that's preciesly what the non-religious are trying to mislead the public into believing today. Misleading the truth is what evil people do so therefore the non-religious are "EVIL" in my opinion. What the non-religious don't like is one of their own pointing this reality out..."
I was in error in putting it that way so please forgive my mistake. What I meant was the Anti-religious and Zealots not the average religious and non-religious.
When I was speaking of the admendment regarding the seperation of church and state. I believe it is well understood by intellegent minds the founding fathers wasn't trying to create a government that forbid religion in public places. They was merely trying to keep both the government and religion protected from over powering one another. They was well aware from European experience the destructivness such practices induced upon religion, society, and government.
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:05:19 PM | I actually have no problem with religion being in school. Religion has a profound impact on human history and to leave it omitted from the lexicon is to ignore a critical element...
Me either, as long as it's an optional classroom course and it looks at all religions. Maybe 2 weeks on Christianity, 2 weeks on Muslim, 2 weeks on Hindu, 2 weeks on Wiccan, etc etc. Each of these is equally valid. | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 9/23/2009 10:03:06 AM |
If it walks like xenophobia, and it talks like xenophobia...it's xenophobia. So true. The OP makes me wonder why this person who wrote the article was focusing so strongly on an Arabic school. One reason only, xenophobia. | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 9/28/2009 2:46:26 AM | If the Bible is taught in schools ( I'm just assuming when proponents of religion in the schools talk about religion they mean just Christianity), are they going to teach the entire Bible or are they going to cherry pick the passages they want to use? I'd say if they want to use the Bible in school clasrooms they should have to teach the entire Bible....
From the TV show "The West Wing" :
<div class="quote">BARTLET
Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
JENNA JACOBS
I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
BARTLET
Yes, it does. Leviticus.
JENNA JACOBS
18:22
BARTLET
Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had
you here.
I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned
in Exodus 21:7.
(small chuckles from the guests) She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent
Italian, and
always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for
her be? While
thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, LeoO McGarry,
insists on working
on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2, clearly says he should be put to death. Am I
morally obligated
to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really
important,
'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a
dead pig makes
us unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington
Redskins
still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town
really have to be
together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by
side? Can I burn
my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two
different threads?
And what about Lot sending his daughters out to be gangraped so the visiting angels won't be sullied? Dunno if children should be taught about this kind of thing.
<div class="quote">
Genesis 19:4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof." | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 9/29/2009 9:31:56 AM | | OP was to point out that were the school in question a Christian school there would be a huge outcry. Funny how anything Christian in the public forum is immediately attacked and eliminated using the constitutionally dishonest "seperation of church and state." | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 9/29/2009 12:50:17 PM | ^^^^^ yeah but the thread title is "religion in school", I was posting an example of what it could result in.
I'm against any relifon being taught in school, except as an optional course that examines a multitude of relgions for the purpose of learning about different beliefs; with no particular religion being given a spotlight or being claimed to be "the right one". | |
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| Religion in schools
Posted: 10/2/2009 12:02:04 PM | RE Msg: 39 by susan_cd:
If the Bible is taught in schools ( I'm just assuming when proponents of religion in the schools talk about religion they mean just Christianity), are they going to teach the entire Bible or are they going to cherry pick the passages they want to use? I'd say if they want to use the Bible in school clasrooms they should have to teach the entire Bible.... Very amusing. But all those quotes are cherry-picking the Bible, because they are ignoring the other quotes. For instance, the bit about selling your daughter as a slave actually says that you can only do that, if the buyer will marry her, or his son will marry her, and even when he marries her, it says that he cannot treat her like a slave, but must treat her "like the laws of daughters" equal to any of the buyer's daughters. So it becomes nothing more than a clever ruse for a poor man finding his daughter a good husband, without having the problem that society might think of her as a gold-digger. The rest of the quotes have just the same out-of-context cherry-picking about them.
However, you might be interested to know that "The West Wing" was created by Aaron Sorkin, and he was the major writer, as he wrote on all 155 episodes and the other writers wrote for a max of only 35 episodes. The other programme that Aaron Sorkin created, and which he was again the only writer to write for all of its episodes, was "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip". Here is the religious/non-religious conflict summed up Aaron Sorkin:
Harriet Hayes: I don't even know what the sides are in the culture wars.
Matt Albie: Well, your side hates my side because you think we think you're stupid and my side hates your side because we think you're stupid.
RE Msg: 41 by susan_cd:
I'm against any relifon being taught in school, except as an optional course that examines a multitude of relgions for the purpose of learning about different beliefs; with no particular religion being given a spotlight or being claimed to be "the right one". But that would promote atheism, agnosticism, and any other belief that is not tied to a particular religion, and that would inhibit many religions, and the US Constitution is totally against promoting or inhibiting one belief system over another. | |
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