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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:15:43 PM |
The educated and the rich usually see themselves as having more options to try out before they surrender and start to pray for an intervention. When that intervention happens, the educated have a greater tendency to rationalize it or put it down to luck or coincidence. At least thats how it was for me.
this is why there's also a correlation bewteen IQ rating and the importance of a religious belief. the lower the IQ, the more likely that person is to believe in an invisible man in the sky with a "plan" for them to see them through or show them something . . . | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:17:22 PM |
Less than 7% of members of the Academy of Sciences are religious, faith is big among window licking trailer park dwellers... draw your own conclusions
Oh that's right, I forgot C.S. Lewis lived in a trailer park.
Help me out here people- can anyone think of some more prominent window lickers?
N. T. Wright, Craig Blomberg, Paul Maier, Ben Witherington III, Peter Kreeft, Eleonore Stump, Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, Kurt Wise, Russell Humphreys, Michael Behe, John Polkinghorne, Paul Maier, Craig Blomberg, and Ben Witherington III. Those are just my short list of modern day thinkers or scientists.
But wouldn't it spoil all of the fun if we ruined his carefully wrought illusions that all theists are window licking trailer trash?  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:24:14 PM | Then, the real clincher was when my 4 yr. old daughter got menningitis. I phoned my mother from the ambulance bay to ask her to tap into her prayer line, because the doctors did not believe her grandchild was going to make it, as she was in a Level 1 coma, showing no signs of coming out. She was in the ambulance to Sick Children's Hospital, the Dr., nurse and paramedic from the small rural hospital were in the back with her, and I was riding in the front. We were about 20 minutes down the road when the doctor tapped me on the shoulder from the back and said he did not know what happened, but my daughter had just woken up, fully alert, asked where she was, and where was mom? They pointed to me, she looked right at me, and went back to sleep. By the time we got to Sick Kids, the emergency doctors there could not figure out why she had been rushed there, as she was totally fine. To this day, she has had zero side effects from the menningitis.... which is usually a killer disease.... and the doctors are totally baffled.
Praise Jesus for saving her from the disease he gave her!
BTW, how do you know it was meningitis if there was no evidence of it? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/10/2008 4:26:59 PM | Praise Jesus for saving her from the disease he gave her!
Jesus gives disease? How so?
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 1:28:29 AM | peacelover61,
So by what you are saying there could very well be a process that leads one to a full understanding of god. Of at least a knowing. So the question is what was that process for you. What led you to believe in a god? I'm not sure what you are talking about in the last paragraph about the scientists doing something? what did they do and did they publish a paper?
I can tell by your tone and choice of words that there is a difference between someone saying i believe and actual belief (knowing) that makes faith alive. This is something i sought for years. I could see just how dead the faith of the church was but in my heart knew there was more, yet it alluded me.
skypoetone,
I think you misunderstood me or i wasn't clear enough. I mean everyone has intuition but that doesn't lead everyone to god so i was asking specifically what led you to god and not just the (mechanics = intuition) which led you. Not meaning that intuition is mechanical but the means in which your path was led. You asked :'what purpose would God be something other than unconditional love ?' I don't know i don't pretend to know anything about god. I don't even think he exists so it seems silly to attribute human traits to the idea of a god. If you remember I believe in Love and oneness. And again i see these as very human not supernatural in nature. I further believe it is the belief systems we hold as humans that separates us. I believe if we all embrace our humanity there is only one thing 'each other' no seperation and as the mosses code puts it "I AM THAT, I AM. I don't see god in the picture though.... This is why i am asking everyone because i really want to know 'what led them to believe in a god'
E.Kyro,
Addiction as a disease vrs. choice is a whole different thread i'd think... but I understand your point of view. Even if that point of view was wrong i would not want to argue it because one thing is true. Many have been able to give up drinking through the belief in god so i see that as a successful treatment, knowing the alternative. As to this though 'Your belief that people can control themselves may be the very reason you have a problem seeing any evidence of God because for me it was the first place where He manifested His presence.' if we are powerless as humans we are doomed I prefer to believe in mankind and that we can change and we can turn the direction we are going. If i didn't believe that i couldn't see any point in living.
nevralone,
*whistles innocently*
moving on
stillwatersaredeep,
Please i hope you didn't think i tried to minimise the intent of the author of your quote. I don't think that everyone is out to snag an atheist anyway they can. In fact i think it is quite the oposite. I don't think people understand language very well and the embedded scripts that are within them. When i was a Christian so many years ago i often had doubts as well and if it wasn't for some inspirational comments made to me at the time i wouldn't of been a Christian very long at all. And i guess that's the point. And if PeaceLover61 is right then i understand why many of us need constant feeding of inspiration to keep going. if you understand what i mean.
You are right many things could be argued but i'm hoping that the this thread doesn't end up there as many have. It's easy to put down a belief or lack of but its more interesting to know how someone got to the point they got to in spite of all we know about religion and faith.
flyguy51,
Thanks for your comments and personal experience. So even though you were indoctrinated at an early age you still believe? How did you make the transition from learned belief to personal belief?
Thanks so far for the level of sharing by everyone. And if someone wants to share their experience privately please do so. Just remember preaching isn't acceptable. I do however want to make sense of this phenomena and there is enough well educated believers on this site to perhaps come to an understanding. Who knows... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 6:20:32 AM | crazylilting
My pleasure to try and offer you further thoughts.
I looked at perceptions of "God" in the bible. When wasn't this in the face of humankind? But, just as you or anyone else is capable of (given the use of created consciousness) studying the bible, I was able to determine the incredulous from the feasible. The key words for me are 'given', 'created' and 'conscience'. Of course it's possible to draw many conclusions and who’s to say what the actual truth is? A constructed, harmonious universe makes more sense than one of utter confusion, thus something had to orchestrate it... imho, this goes far deeper than little old earthlings and our ideas of GOD.
I hope this helps... you are welcome to write to my mail box if not, then maybe we can discuss it further. :) | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 8:55:20 AM |
So even though you were indoctrinated at an early age you still believe?
Nope. I became a skeptic after years (or rather, decades) of trusting gullibility. No hard feelings here, though. Life is a series of phases. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 9:35:35 AM | CountIbli,
I was wondering the same thing however I think for the nature of this thread we don't want to question peoples beliefs as much as understand how people come to believe. Or at least it is for me. I really hope that people don't get caught up in questioning as much as understanding, putting ones self in the others shoes to understand how belief came about for them.
As a child it was mostly beaten into me and as a young adult wanted to prove my worthiness because of how the abuse destroyed my ability to see myself as worthy of god or anyone for that matter. At the end of the day though it simply was not a belief system that came alive for me. My faith became empty because there was nothing that could sustain a deep understanding of god in the world or in my life. A search outside of the church yielded more mysticism and an introduction to such things as healing and other phenomena but found that many of the things they could do could also be done outside of the name of god or spirituality. Trial and error i even produced my own system called miracle space without any god at all even taught it to others who still swear by it.
skypoetone,
by reading your latest reply i can only imagine that the idea of god appeals to you and your version of it includes everything. Since it is a positive attribute in your life you have no reason to question it. I can understand that if that is what you mean. It sounds like you've just gleaned what fits for you and moved on integrating it into your life. Perhaps if my experience would of been different I to would of continued, Even though people were demanding and had expectations i did enjoy some things about meeting with my Reiki circles and later sharing circles. One of the things that woke me up though was peoples need for a leader or someone to look up to though. Some times the message can be an empowering one yet some are so ready to give up their power. It would be easy to take advantage of that and i can see that others do. I simply cannot though. And it just seems to be a hazard of the spiritual community.
flyguy51,
Thanks for the clarification. Could probably take a page out of your book that help me in some areas i struggle with.
For those who want to just bash each other and or people of faith perhaps you can start a thread to do so. You could just sign on and randomly insult each other and others. At least then it could be amusing.
For anyone who may feel i've minimized their belief system It is not my intention. Even though i've posted arguments in the past i truly want to understand how intelligent people find their way to god. So far i've heard that some defining factor such as a miracle or intervention when they reached out to god or someone who believed in god. Some who's experience was nothing but good (or possibly sees only the good) so there is no reason to question because only the good parts are taken and then move on to others with the new good part integrated. Did i miss anything yet? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 9:59:41 AM |
So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists? Complex numbers. I did Mathematics in school, from a very good teacher. He showed us that there was no such thing as the a negative square root in reality. He then showed us that negative square roots exist as solutions of Mathematical equations. He then told us that some of the equations the explain how the real world works, require Complex Numbers to understand them and get solutions. My Physics teacher told me the same. From what I understand of Physics, you cannot explain the real world without Complex Numbers, which are purely imaginary.
This showed me that there are things that MUST exist, that have no physical identity, and cannot be measured or detected in the real world, and only can be shown to exist because the world wouldn't make sense without them.
When I tried proving to myself that G-d couldn't exist, I realised that I couldn't use the argument that no-one can see G-d, because you can't see complex numbers either.
That left me with one basic fact: if I am willing to accept complex numbers to exist, just because the universe won't make sense without them, I have to accept that G-d exists if the universe made no sense without G-d. I then went through a series of options, and concluded that the probability was infinitesimally small that both G-d didn't exist and the universe made sense.
My advanced education has definitely been a factor in making me believe in G-d.
It has been said that the more educated a person is the less they believe in god. However this isn't always the case. Some very well educated people believe in god. I am definitely not a well educated or even a well read person but can see the importance of believing something that doesn't require faith or 'blind faith'. I was told that the most of the top-level Mathematicians and Scientists are all theists, either in G-d, a god, or a Universal Consciousness of some kind.
Many people I met who were very into science were confirmed atheists. I would sometimes talk Science to them. But I quickly realised I was battling with them. They accepted what they were told. I questioned what I was told, and tried to understand it.
I later on developed the following notion, that in everything there are Novices, Amateurs, and Experts.
Novices tend to say "I don't know anything". In Science, they are the "newbies".
Amateurs tend to say "I know everything worth knowing". In Science, they are the "scientists".
Experts tend to say "I know enough". In Science, they are the top people, the Newtons, the Einsteins, the Galoises, the Gausses. They are the people who revolutionise our world.
By and large, I found that the newbies were a mixed bunch, the scientists were almost always atheists, and the experts where into G-d as a form of Universal Consciousness. The scientists were both the most difficult group to reason with and the funniest. They refused to consider any new idea unless another scientist said it. However, you could say something, watch them call you an idiot for saying it, then find a scientist they respected who said exactly the same thing, tell them, hear them say that this is 100% true and no-one could doubt it, and if you reminded them how they rejected the EXACT SAME IDEA, not more than 24 hours ago, watch them as they desperately tried to justify their completely unreasonable behaviour. It didn't matter if the idea was about Evolution, Religion, or a new idea in Quantum Physics. Their behaviour would be the same.
Sadly, a lot of people just believe by reason of authority, and not their own brains. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 12:12:46 PM |
People who believe in aliens have extraterrestrial experiences. People who believe in God have religious experiences. People who believe in ghosts have paranormal experiences. Each experience is created by ones own mind to fit their beliefs. an empty belief results in an empty experience.
Umm..... no. I believe in aliens (or some sort of extraterrestrial life, intelligent or not) and I've NEVER had an extraterrestrial experience... not once. I haven't even spotted an UFO (and I'm looking). It sucks because I really would like to see one.. or an alien... or even a blip on SETI that could not be accounted for any other way.
There are many accounts of people who do not believe in ghosts... and then seeing one or having a paranormal experience... and some of those still don't really believe, but their mind opens to the point of at least admitting something wierd happened. There are many accounts of people having religious and spiritual experiences who did not believe in spiritual realms or beings. There are accounts of non-believers having NDE's with spiritual content... and becoming believers (in a spiritual sense anyway, not always a religious 'conversion'). The above theory is nice and neat, but it doesn't actually work that way. I will admit that those with a strong belief are MORE likely to have those experiences.. I think. I could be wrong.
Peace | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 12:41:30 PM |
skypoetone,
by reading your latest reply i can only imagine that the idea of god appeals to you and your version of it includes everything. Since it is a positive attribute in your life you have no reason to question it. I can understand that if that is what you mean. It sounds like you've just gleaned what fits for you and moved on integrating it into your life.
Yes, you are closer to understanding where I'm coming from on this, but let's not be too clinical about it. I also believe we are still learning and what I say today may well change (albeit not drastically) tomorrow. This is the beauty of growing together (although we have separate identities) as one, in the One. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 12:57:43 PM | stillwatersaredeep,
Please i hope you didn't think i tried to minimise the intent of the author of your quote. I don't think that everyone is out to snag an atheist anyway they can. In fact i think it is quite the oposite. I don't think people understand language very well and the embedded scripts that are within them. When i was a Christian so many years ago i often had doubts as well and if it wasn't for some inspirational comments made to me at the time i wouldn't of been a Christian very long at all. And i guess that's the point. And if PeaceLover61 is right then i understand why many of us need constant feeding of inspiration to keep going. if you understand what i mean.
You are right many things could be argued but i'm hoping that the this thread doesn't end up there as many have. It's easy to put down a belief or lack of but its more interesting to know how someone got to the point they got to in spite of all we know about religion and faith.
My friend, I didn't feel as if you minimized anything, in fact you gave me a lot to think about that I don't think I ever have before. I do tend to seek out other people in spirituality who are ahead of me in their journey as I seek to learn from them. Undoubtedly, my faith has been encouraged again and again by reading and listening to others, most who are far more intelligent and spiritually aware than I am. Without that I honestly could not say where I'd be or what I'd believe. One of my core beliefs is that God will give me just what I need exactly when I need it, however the manner in which he gives it.
I have great respect for people who are honestly seeking whatever it is they need emotionally and spiritually. Also, a thank you for your gentle, respectful and open thread. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 1:37:48 PM | One thing that is important to keep in mind about most educational institutions is that they teach a secular ciriculum... which might be one reason why a person that is more educated is less likely to believe in a higher power.
My education is nothing special. I've read a few more books than the next person, and have been around the block a couple of times, but I trust in my experience and my experience seems to suggest that there is indeed something more to human existence than what is scientifically quantifiable. Oddly enough, look where I want and when I want, and I find numerous other people and peoples who, based on their own experience, also believe in a higher power.
Belief certainly isn't a hallmark of ignorance. Pretty well all belief systems arose amongst people who were living much closer to the real "real world" than we do today, all buffered from it as we are today with the products of science and technology... such that people can beleive all sorts of crazy things because there are basically no consequences. People living in a "state of nature" don't enjoy the luxuries of an ivory tower like we do today. And depending on the specific nature of the belief, a false belief could hold some potentially lethal consequences for them.
I mean, think about it; does anyone honestly believe that humanity coud have survived the 40,000 years of its existence walking around with its head shoved up its arse and harbouring all kinds of false notions about reality? | |
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| Educated (and Intelligent) Believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 3:21:08 PM |
97% of members of the Academy of Sciences are religious, window licking trailer park dwellers.
Which academy of science? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/11/2008 7:26:23 PM | | I consider my non-religious meaning I do not follow organized religion, however, I do have an intense belief in God and guess what? I"m not an ignorant person. Some of the most educated people I have ever met have been religious people. IT's called choice and freewill, educated people are not all scientists or doctor's. Most preachers in many faiths are educated people. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 2:51:58 AM | Well, the first thing for an educated believer is to realise God's existence has been questioned for thousands of years, and many proofs and arguments have been devised for and against God's existence. 'Blind faith' is too simplistic a term to apply to a theist's beliefs, since many theists are convinced on the basis of arguments put to them, or by experience, that God exists, rather than simply trusting God exists. Faith is certainly a part of the religious worldview, but the concept is fairly complex and can be used in a number of ways in a theological or a philosophical context.
Many non-believers would hold it is completely irrational to adhere to any belief which doesn't have a ironclad rational justification. For many non-believers, I think to them, the arguments or proofs purporting to show God exists are questionable to the reasonable and rational person, and if a belief can't be rationally justified in a rigorous way, it is not worth holding at all.
To me reason and logic and clear argument are important in religious belief, but they also have certain limitations. Logic and reason alone can't solve every problem we face, especially ones involving the emotions, or which involve great complexity. However, I think throwing away reason, logic and clear argument are extremely dangerous, especially in a religious context. Faith to me is balancing the limits of reason and what our mind can know, with the need to keep superstition and fanaticism at bay. Reason is a good disinfectant for the unhealthy excesses religious belief can lead to, while faith in my eyes is a hope there is more to life than just meaninglessness, suffering, and ultimately death. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 7:05:56 AM | Because one is educated does not necessarily mean they are intelligent. At the least, an education merely shows somebody was able to complete a curriculum. One may be educated and knowledgeable in one area, yet be totally ignorant in regard to other areas of thought. For example, I may be educated as a veterinarian, and be very intelligent in that respect, but when it comes to rebuilding a gas engine, or mechanical engineering, not a clue and therefore ignorant in regard to that. One may be ignorant in some areas, but it does not make them a totally ignorant individual. I don't think belief requires intelligence, only willingness. And both the educated and uneducated can be willing, depending on factors like upbringing, environment, personality, etc. There are many educated people that believe, but what are they educated in, and how intelligent are they in regard to all areas of learning and thought? That veterinarian may not be a believer for long if he/she also learns some science, philosophy, history, and is also able to detach possible emotional ties that hold to beliefs as well.
But wouldn't it spoil all of the fun if we ruined his carefully wrought illusions that all theists are window licking trailer trash?
Reread what he wrote, he did not say all theists. He was alluding to the notion that people in poverty, and/or considered of lesser intelligence tend to be believers. He was not accusing ALL believers of being trailer trash, as you might want to paint it. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 7:16:40 AM | You know thats a really good point,,I agree..
I have read a lot about different people who have had "ghostly" expereinces, or alien or even divine apparitions and most, 99 percent have 'visions' in line with what they believe,,like you said and I am repeating....
The more my beliefs and what I accept as "ok", change,,the different my "higher" being becomes to me.
Having a Church try to control me in what I believe and do does not make things easier for me personally,,,,if others like it thats their business.
Of course I may ride the short bus now and again when it comes to this type of thing.
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 7:54:19 AM | Reread what he wrote, he did not say all theists. He was alluding to the notion that people in poverty, and/or considered of lesser intelligence tend to be believers. He was not accusing ALL believers of being trailer trash, as you might want to paint it.
When people base their lives on the one book that is taken out of context by just about everyone who reads it, you have to expect it to interfere with their perception of everything else they ever read...
When people are questioned on somwething & they REALLY don't have an answer then they tend to have a habit of deflecting the question to avoid reality (or looking like a complete idiot). | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 9:06:06 AM | A Fortiori,
I'm glad you brought up your point in an intelligent manner. Although others have brought it up they have brought it up in quite a condescending manner and made assumptions on my point of view. But i haven't said that to believe you have to be less intelligent. I was merely wondering how people with higher educations that believe bring faith and critical thinking together.
I still believe that any faith is blind because that seems to be its nature. And yes i do think there is some differences in how some people are led to god. Some are manipulated and indoctrinated at an early age. People with addictions are led to believe that without a higher power they are doomed to their addiction. homeless people are given kindness and indoctrination at the same time. In other words some churches will use peoples mental illness or situations as a way to implant the belief in god with a helping hand. This is also true in less fortunate countries where missionaries will help the poor in other countries and while preaching the gospel to them etc...
So educated people have more choices to them and as a result more freedom. But this like other people have mentioned doesn't make them more intelligent. Thus the question. I've heard of many really well educated people who couldn't organize their life but are brilliant in their chosen field. Or simply can't relate to people at all. So this is why its important to understand what has brought them to believe in god. Obviously if nothing related to their ability critically think or freely think brought them to god then Intelligence has nothing to do with belief and then we must inquire again to come to the source of belief. But we can only do this one step at a time.
Some of us genuinely want to know. Not to put people down or call them stupid or uneducated but to understand fully what drives people to believe in something that seems so irrational to the outsider. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 9:14:15 AM | This is such a boring idea. Look, we don't have 'proof' that most of the things we 'believe' exist. Most important things exist only as abstract concepts; i.e. no 'proof' can exist for them.
Show me 'proof' that 'love' or 'trust' or 'faith' or 'honesty' exist. Show me proof that there is such a thing as 'thought'. Draw me an 'idea'.
So that a Divine/All Love exists requries no more 'proof' than that 'love' or even 'life' exists.
How is this not perfectly clear to 'educated' people? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 9:36:58 AM |
Draw me an 'idea'.
There are thousands of them available at the Patent Office...
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 10:18:22 AM | I always liked to question all things... Still do, so I guess I can't be put into the faith category... I have my beliefs, but they are subject to change... I haven't liked organized religion since I was a wee child, but have always "felt"something.
I use scientific, comparative and experiential evidence as far as that takes me and then from there I try to form workable theories with my intuition, but if a part of my hypothesis is proven wrong, I'm not hurt as I am only here to learn anyways(imo).
I've saturated these threads with what it is I believe so won't bore you with it here, but that's how I form my beliefs. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/12/2008 10:34:07 AM | E.Kyro
"God did for me what I couldn't do for myself"
I belive your totaly disillusioned to belive the God you speak of would help you in this way. It is more likly you did it for yourself. | |
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