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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 12:47:59 PM | Really nice contribution to the discussion, x_file. But have you considered that Spinoza was a window licking trailer park dweller masquerading as an intellectual? 
That's an illusion. The more educated a person, the less s/he believes in the common descriptions/definitions of God. If you think about it, it's the natural course of events - the more a person gets acquainted with a subject, the more specific their definitions become and therefore are less similar to the generally known ones.
Here is an example: (Quoting some of Spinoza's propositions)
Proposition 13:
Absolute infinite substance is indivisible.
Proposition 14:
There can be, or be conceived, no other substance but God.
Proposition 17:
God acts solely from the laws of his own nature, constrained by none.
Proposition 18:
God is the immanent, not the transitive, cause of all things.
Proposition 19:
God [is eternal], that is, all the attributes of God are eternal.
Proposition 20:
God's existence and his essence are one and the same.
Proposition 26:
A thing which has been determined to act in a particular way has necessarily been so determined by God; and a thing which has not been determined by God cannot determine itself to act.
Now, how many people do you know who give such precise definitions? Spinoza was an intellectual and a well educated person. What's more, if you think about the propositions, in particular 13 & 14, what can you conclude about yourself? What's the next logical conclusion? What can you say about faith after this? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 1:05:22 PM | nona37,
Religious people who are indeed intelligent, wholeheartedly understand that religion is questioned and for many reasons, however, they utilize their freewill in chosing to believe.
I noticed that as well and hope to hear more people talk about this process of free will to believe. I wonder is it as simple as making a choice or was something part of that decision making process to freely choose? The how is really important to me. I mean we don't all get blinding lights on the way to somewhere and god telling us to chill with the giving Christians a hard time. If we did it would be pretty hard to not believe wouldn't it?
Merrylass,
If humans didn't believe in intangible, abstract, non-concrete concepts, we couldn't function at all. Belief itself is an abstract - yet the very people who claim they don't 'believe' in anything that can't be 'proven' believe there's such a thing as 'belief'. Ironic, isn't it?
So which abstract beliefs do we believe and which ones do we discard? I've heard that there is a mother ship over the planet and they are beaming messages to a select few... If we aren't that select few do we believe the few are truly inspired by the beings that communicate with them? So again i come back to the how do you believe what you believe? Are you saying you believe because if we don't believe in the unprovable we won't advance as a human race? I'm not understanding how some of your comments relate to the 'how' of this thread.
x_file,
maybe you can ask how Spinoza came to believe what you shared with us, thanks
thatottguy,
Thanks for sharing your belief with us. that thread is down the hall and two doors on the left. perhaps you can share how you came to believe what you do? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 1:27:41 PM | Crazylilting:
Well there's no specific 'step by step' was to start to understand something you want to understand. That's why I never really liked religious institutions... I always felt that they were trying to sell me THEIR beliefs and THEIR understanding of the 'way things are' instead of allowing me to develop my own understanding.
I stated by just reading many, many pieces of info on spirituality, science, religion from many different sources. I would never really write something off entirely, I view 'truth' as a sort of infinitely big pie chart and just because something had a really really small slice of the pie at one point didn't mean I would forget it entirely. I have had a few occurrences where I've read something once and said yea right that's stupid only to re-read it later and say wow... why didn't I see that before.
I would sort of weight the data based on the potential biases that the person saying it might have, the best things in life are free after all ;)
But I basically I've always had a 'hmm I wonder how that works' type of approach to life never really worrying to much about the personal implications of what I might find.
If you want a tip I would say that listening to the 'whispers of life' was helpful for me. Basically a lot of times I'll say hmm that doesn't make sense but what ever I'm going to do something else now. Then I'll sit down a few days/weeks later and will understand what I didn't understand before without really thinking of it since the last time.
I would say to have as small and specific a question as you can think of... and then just listen for the answer to come to you in your own way.
For me there wasn't 1 real moment where I went from skeptic to believer, but it was more a process of noticing that most of religion, spirituality and science are saying the exact same thing. Then I'd pick 1 aspect and try to see if there were commonalities between all of them on that 1 topic. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 1:54:44 PM | Also I find certain songs tend to help me quiet my mind enough to be able to start to discern a topic. But whether or not that helps you I don't know. I know some find meditation helps to quiet their mind, personally I always fall asleep when I meditate. But I do find that having a quick 30-40 min sleep after reading about a topic tends to help me. Once I wake up I find I 'understand' much better than before and some times I'll continue investigating, other times I'll be bored and go do something else.
The first thing I'd suggest you try to 'understand' is that just as no one can live for you, or think for you (although some try ;)) no one can 'understand' for you. The answers you seek are inside you, but will you listen... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 2:10:56 PM |
I noticed that as well and hope to hear more people
talk about this process of free will to believe. I wonder is it
as simple as making a choice or was something part of that
decision making process to freely choose? The how is really
important to me. I mean we don't all get blinding lights on the
way to somewhere and god telling us to chill with the giving
Christians a hard time. If we did it would be pretty hard to not
believe wouldn't it?
I personally believe (not to sound like that girl from South Carolina
in the beauty pageant) that people have great influences within
their lives which lead them into their decisions based on their faith
or avoiding faith. I don't want to ramble here, but I feel it's relevant
to your question/statement and to this thread.
I was a non-believer until I experienced a war. It was not until
the end of the war believe it or not that I realized there is
most definitely a God. Without going into specifics, I can say that
I was in situations continually throughout the war that showed me
a higher power was protecting me. Initially I was summing these events
up as myself being merely lucky, but over and over I survived particular
events, this led me to believe that I had a personal bodyguard named
God. This led me to review events which happened within my childhood,
I had been on the brink of death so many times, always pulling through
or being saved, I now within my adult life perform a job where I
help people. This leads me to believe that God had a purpose for me
and I am doing precisely what he wanted me to do.
I also once made a deal with God believe it or not, my son was so sick once, he
was hospitalized for 17 days in the local children's hospital, he
was diagnosed with Infantile Spasms and alot of children who are
diagnosed with this horrible thing more times to none end up being
retarded and there are even documented cases where some children
had parts of their brains cut out. I would have stood by my son
regardless, whether he ended up being retarded or not, but something
in me made me pray, I literally told God out loud in that chapel in
the hospital that if he would spare my son of this horrible atrocity
I would do as he wanted, I would go where he wanted me to go, my son
was cured of this horrible thing, he has not had a seizure in years
thank God! I know I made a deal with God and I'm honestly too scared
to go back on my word with God, I was offered the opportunity to
aid Homeless Veterans and to aid military veterans, I took this as
a sign of what God wanted, therefore, I do believe.
Summing this up? I would rather die believing in God only to find out
I was wrong as compared to NOT believing in GOd only to find out I was wrong,
if that makes sense :) | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 2:37:59 PM | Wiki has Faith as "a profound belief or trust in a particular truth, or in a doctrine that expresses such a truth."
The first problem I have with faith is the notion that truth is static. Truth is completely objective and based on each individuals understanding. Understanding is ONLY gained through experience which no two people share.
That's why spirituality/religion has always been difficult to explain to someone else. Unless you have VERY similar leveling of understanding it's almost impossible to try and explain yourself. Not only that but if they do not gain the proper understanding to 'walk on their own' so to speak you will forever either be walking for them or they'll be 'stuck' at one level of understanding indefinitely because they won't have the tools to progress.
(Hmmm sounds a lot like Religion... shh don't think for yourself just do what I say, who cares if you don't UNDERSTAND, if you just go along with me you'll be fine.. well at least until I leave, but don't worry... why would I leave ;) )
It's like someone trying to teach an animal to drive a car. You might be able to get them to drive half decently but will they actually understand that they are driving a car and what it means, the consequences of it (like running people over) or will they simply be doing exactly what you taught them simply because you reward them for doing it. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 2:57:56 PM |
The first problem I have with faith is the notion that
truth is static. Truth is completely objective and based on each
individuals understanding. Understanding is ONLY gained through
experience which no two people share.
I respect what you are saying.
It's like someone trying to teach an animal to drive a car.
You might be able to get them to drive half decently but will
they actually understand that they are driving a car and what it
means, the consequences of it (like running people over) or will
they simply be doing exactly what you taught them simply because
you reward them for doing it.
This actually reminds me of a theory made by Pavlov in relation to
teaching animals things. Without going into detail here, he did
utilize techniques in teaching dogs that when a particular light
would flash they could have food, and after continually giving them
food at the flash, he then decided to NOT give them food when the
light would flash to view the response, upon food not being given
to those particular dogs, they would still salivate.
For some strange reason, I can apply this to religious fanatics lol
No offense to those who believe, for I believe to, but even those
of us who believe must admit there are religious fanatics out within
our world who believe some pretty ridiculous stuff! | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 5:20:44 PM | OP, two points:
1.) It isn't blind faith
2.) Faith is the gift of God.
I believe that there is plenty of proof that God exists. The whole world is a testament to His existence and to His creative genius. How do our lungs filter the oxygen out of the air so perfectly that we can live? If that fails to happen for ten minutes, we will die. What if the potassium level in our blood drops too low? We will die? How can you consider the human body and not be amazed?
We live in an orderly universe. Man is able, by observation, to learn about the world he lives in and then to dominate it. If we lived in a world of chance, this wouldn't be possible. Whether it is a refinery distilling oil to make gasoline or a woman baking a cake, processes work time and time again. If there were no God, you could not expect these things to be consistent. Yes, they worked yesterday, but you don't know that they will work tomorrow. After all, whatever laws that exist in a chance universe may suddenly change. Planes may plummet from the air. Ships may sink. You have no confidence that tomorrow will be like today. I can have confidence that all of these things will still work because God exists.
As far as faith goes, I believe that faith is the gift of God. The reason I personally believe is because God intruded into my life when I was 15 years old and changed my heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ezekiel 36:26-27). I came to faith because of my calling and election (Romans 8:30). If it were not for that, I would not believe (Ephesians 2:1-5). I don't believe that anyone can "just believe" because God gives grace to the elect only. I'm sure that will anger people, but I do not believe that God and the devil are in some titanic battle to save mankind. All those God intends to save ARE saved in my opinion.
As far as education goes, I live in New Mexico where we have two national laboratories that do major scientific and weapons research. Over the years I have met several scientists and engineers at church. Some of these people have been at the Ph.D. level; the others were masters level. They have believed in God for a variety of reasons. I have also known some doctors and lawyers as Presbyterian Churches are more scholarly and attract a more educated membership. People come to faith for a variety of reasons. I have never heard any of the more highly educated professionals agree with evolution or atheism. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 6:11:45 PM | | So blind faith would be the definition of the word Faith that thatottguy found minus the word truth! That would only make sence. Blind faith: a prafound belief or trust in a paticular doctrine that expresses such. Just an idea! That is what believers do! | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 6:18:57 PM | | That definition is correct. See faith is what we have in the dinasours on this earth. We have bones of them (which we know to be skeleton of body) on this earth. So we have faith that they are what we say they were. The Egyptians, we have found many caves and ruins they have built and many stories they have told so we have faith that evertyhing we have been told is true. Blind faith is a belief minus truth. So Blind faith would be a religious belief because there is no definitive truth. (which is the key word in the definition of faith) Same with love. There is no difinitive truth (cause people change daily at the liest) so we have a blind faith in marriage thinking we will be with one person forever. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 7:09:03 PM | The more educated a person, the less s/he believes in the common descriptions/definitions of God. If you think about it, it's the natural course of events - the more a person gets acquainted with a subject, the more specific their definitions become and therefore are less similar to the generally known ones.
Speculation. Prove that education necessarily makes one believe less in the common description of a god.
Now, how many people do you know who give such precise definitions? Spinoza was an intellectual and a well educated person. What's more, if you think about the propositions, in particular 13 & 14, what can you conclude about yourself? What's the next logical conclusion? What can you say about faith after this?
What can we say about faith after this?? Well.. what we might be able to say is that spinoza may have had faith in a deity (Proposition 14 and 20), but you have still not shown how spinoza proves that a god exists, only what he believes.
This one is curious, you state:
The more educated a person, the less s/he believes in the common descriptions/definitions of God.
But then provide as an example some very common descriptions of god from an educated man...
Proposition 17:
God acts solely from the laws of his own nature, constrained by none.
Proposition 18:
God is the immanent, not the transitive, cause of all things.
Proposition 19:
God [is eternal], that is, all the attributes of God are eternal.
Proposition 20:
God's existence and his essence are one and the same.
Really....
:P
Really nice contribution to the discussion, x_file. But have you considered that Spinoza was a window licking trailer park dweller masquerading as an intellectual?
So according to x_file, "The more educated a person, the less s/he believes in the common descriptions/definitions of God."
So what's your description of god RO ??? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 8:33:29 PM | Hey Crazylilting, I didn't mean to imply that I don't think you are open minded with my last post, I guess I was maybe a little shocked that you even took the time to watch the moses code considering how many negative comments that particular thread recieved...
Just curious... how many of those in your reiki circles were educated? I recently got my level two and noticed in the circles I have been involved in, that not many are... not trying to make a correlation based on only my experiences.. I was just wondering..
I have never heard of the willpower institute... thanks for the info as it is fairly close to home :) | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/13/2008 10:27:36 PM |
So what's your description of god RO ???
None of your business! You don't rate sufficiently worthy for me to discuss even what I had for breakfast. Go stroke your ego with someone who cares. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 3:29:58 AM | thatottguy,
Thanks for sharing a little more.
If you want a tip I would say that listening to the 'whispers of life' was helpful for me. Basically a lot of times I'll say hmm that doesn't make sense but what ever I'm going to do something else now. Then I'll sit down a few days/weeks later and will understand what I didn't understand before without really thinking of it since the last time.
I kind of do this already however i don't attribute it to god. I learned in NLP that if you ak yourself a question you should ask it and then move on from it. The brain works like that If you focus on it your concious mind will struggle with the issue. But if you just ask the question and move on your subconscious will work it out or work towards a better understanding.
It's like in the 'Celestian Prophecy' how he talks about the coincidences in life and we should watch for them. You consciously ask a question and your subconscious mind will jog your concious mind when part of the answer is at hand so to say. So where some attribute this to god I don't it is a very human trait in my opinion.
Nona37,
I wouldn't wish for such an experience but i can see how such adverse life situations can lead people to believe in god. And i can only say wow to your son. *smiles* Even if there was a way to argue that these things could of been a coincidence why would any one want to. It would almost be like testing fate if there was such a thing. Thanks for sharing. I to had an experience in my early twenties. But it couldn't be proved medically if there was indeed anything there. My ex while we were together appeared to have a stroke. she flopped down on the edge of the bed and was perilised on her left side even her mouth she could barely speak. Before I could think i bundled her up and laid her on the bed and held my hands on her. She is a native American so i also did a smudge all over her and very quickly she recovered minutes. We both looked at each other and didn't know what to think but it was the beginning of my search for answers.
We lived in a rural area so an ambulance was out of the question. We made an appointment to see the doctor and he ran some tests and then sent her to be further tested with scans but simply couldn't find anything. What was interesting though at the time which didn't click for years later when i read the Isaiah effect Where gregg braden talks about the mode of prayer.
The feeling is the prayer, the intent or vision of possibilities and a single moment called a choice point. It was then i realized what might of happened all those years ago. I didn't pray to a god or the universe. I only did what i had at the time and i do remember the feeling of energy flowing like doing Reiki. Who knows for sure what happened that day or if anything did. She may of had some freak thing that would of passed even if we did nothing. I can't say for certain and there is no way i want to relive such a thing to find out or temp faith as it were.
people have great influences within their lives which lead them into their decisions based on their faith or avoiding faith So what happens when we have such faiths that are ready to condemn non-believers to eternal seperation from god when it is our experiences that lead us in the directions we go?
And Can It Be,
Proof is obviously subjective then. I look at the world and definitely see that it is amazing and the balance is unquestionably remarkable. However your argument or observations should i say, are like catch 22's. and at the end of the day make no difference because like you say "All those God intends to save ARE saved in my opinion." Which makes me wonder why you even offer your point of view...
Sckoul,
I think the idea of trying to define what faith is and blind faith is just semantics that really lead no where at the end of the day. It is something that can be argued. However a persons path to belief reveals much about the person and about the belief they choose. If i say it is blind, it is for me. If you say it is not, it is not for you. If anything, one thing i am learning from the genuine responses to this thread is that some of the paths people have walked are so profound that even if i could see a hole in their logic, what would be the point in trying to get them to see it? If someone spared my son's life I wouldn't question it for a moment.
sassyaquarius,
Oh sassy you would like the willpower institute http://www.willpowerinstitute.com/ it is quite a commitment and of course it is a bit of a journey for you since you are in redear but even if you could make it there once a week i think you'd enjoy it. There was quite a mix of people in many of the circles i've been to. The more wacky the idea oddly enough the more educated the people were. The flower of life seems to attract a well educated bunch or at least the groups i attended were. I went to a Kryon channelling and there were an alful lot of educated people there as well. It seems the more expensive the course or event the more educated they were, perhaps they were just lookilookers but who knows. I didn't get much time to sit down with them and chat about it. I don't take offence if you'd think i was close minded. I've looked into so many things that i perhaps am a little close minded to the things i've taken off the list if you know what i mean. I don't discount the information that the mosses code shares. In fact i think they have some good things to say. If we all lived in a state that they talked about i definitely think the world would be a better place. But again i don't believe proves there is a god. It only proves that if we do these things we will have a better world.
A state of gratefulness and giving is always better then hoarding and complaining, feeling as though you are doing what you came here to do is something many feel they are missing in their life. so it's fair to say that if the mosses code has some truth many people will be pointed in the right direction to self actualization. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 7:18:11 AM | OP, I offer my point of view because you invited those of us who are educated and who are Christians to respond to your thread.
"So perhaps some of the more educated believers could shed some light on why they still believe in something that requires blind faith. What led you to believe as you do when there is not proof that a god exists?"
Your opinions are subjective too. You have no proof that I will accept that God does not exist. You face the same Catch-22 that I do. You have chosen to look at the world and you say:
"I look at the world and definitely see that it is amazing and the balance is unquestionably remarkable. "
Where I see God's design, you have chosen to see time plus chance plus accident plus self-organization bring about amazing balance. Whose world view is more probable?
I truly wish self-organization were a viable force in this life because then I wouldn't have to fold laundry, do dishes, file financial papers, vacuum my floor, clean up after my dogs, cook my meals, style my hair, and the hundreds of other boring tasks that I do because things tend to inevitably fall to disorder. One of my greatest fantasies is to have a perfectly cooked meal come forth out of the kitchen having made itself. If life can do that, why not food?  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 7:53:37 AM | I remember when I was in the Army stationed in Korea one night some friends in my unit took me to "The Kettle House" and I drank numerous kettles with a wine called Soju that's main ingredient was foamaldihide (embalming fluid). Well... mixed with coolaide and vitamins and gingseng the Kettles at the kettle house went down incredibly smooth and it was a hot summer night.
Anywho... and to make a long story short. The next morning I woke up in my barracks room to find my boots had been shined and my uniform pressed and hung up on the door and my room impeccably clean. I had a hang over from the neck down and though I felt like #$%^ I looked good.
My point (...no not my head) is that sometimes a thing can happen that we have positively no explanation as to why. Though my example points to being in a black out drunk with superb control and motivation my feeling is that just because an explanation is not readily available doesn't mean that a belief in how something happened is "Blind Faith". The same realization of being that is our Creator I AM made a very interesting universe indeed... one with a Korean rice wine called Soju. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:29:44 AM | No And Can it be i didn't ask for anyone's point of view on the faith they chose. I asked why you believe what you do, and what led you to believe. Not to leave a message that dooms everyone who is seeking. I'm sorry you took the following quote as literal. "I look at the world and definitely see that it is amazing and the balance is unquestionably remarkable. " It wasn't meant to mean 'unquestionably' as we cannot question. it was unquestionably amazing. Like anyone who can't see its amazing should have their head examined. Not to mention I'm not interested in proving or disproving a god.
Some how my question isn't that clear i guess but i've looked at it several times and I still can't see how people could confuse it as a chance to abuse others with their belief, go figure... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 9:38:57 AM | | Statueman maybe you didnt read the definition of Faith vs Blind Faith. See in your story there was a bit of the word TRUTH! The TRUTH is that you were alive, got drunk and woke up in your barracks with closthes nice and room clean. Now those TRUTHS brought you to a FAITH cause there is truth to your belief. Now if there is no TRUTH to your belief, No truth you can prove as true, then your faith has to be blind because you cant state any real truth to your beliefs. Please again understand there is no TRUTH (truth= undisputiable evidence) in religion as we know of right now! I know religious people dont like the fact they have a "Blind Faith" but thats all it is cause there is no proof of truth so you believe blindly! Common sence come on people! | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 10:39:29 AM |
It has been said that the more educated a person is the less they believe in god.
Not necessarily.
Sacerdote and Glaeser, 2002. Harvard University.
In the United States, there is a negative relationship between years of education and belief in God. This means as formal education level increases, belief decreases. Albeit a weak relationship.
However, when certain gender and race subgroups are removed (moderated regression) a stronger highly significant negative correlation emerges.
This is because African-American, Hispanic and women groups show a positive correlation between education and belief in god.
Within white males there is a strong negative correlation between level of formal education and belief in god.
Paradoxically, there is a positive correlation between white male education level and religious service attendance. That is, they attend church but don't believe in god. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 11:07:02 AM | Skoul brother!
You sayyyy there's no proof in my truth
But since my youth
In the days when I would sneak up to the roof
In the dayyyys when I would expect money for my tooth
IN THE DAYYYS when I watched a man land on the moon
sometime around noon... while I ate Cheerios with a spoon...
I knew God was there... And a child is not blind sir...
a child see's into the soul of the universe and converses with an education
that is doomed to fade in the darkness of psychic doubts
brought on by the weariness and the heavy burden of sin
Can I get an Amen?
OK ok so later I educated myself and became like a little child again and all of the sudden I had the proof of my youth and that's the truth.
(Nice to meet you by the way.) | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 11:27:22 AM | None of your business! You don't rate sufficiently worthy for me to discuss even what I had for breakfast.
So x_file's notion to have a more traditional view of god means one is less educated is a "great contribution" according to you, okie dokie ...
Go stroke your ego with someone who cares.
Ego stroking?
Irony.
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 11:33:25 AM | romanticoptimist (Msg: 76)
But have you considered that Spinoza was a window licking trailer park dweller masquerading as an intellectual?
When I studied Spinoza, I learned that he was a lens grinder, a working man. He was rich but gave away his inheritance and lived a humble life. Perhaps I didn't get the full picture. Do you mind sharing your reference?
Spinoza offers a proof for each and every proportions of his. The amount of clarity and ingenuity of his work earns him the title "intellectual".
crazylilting (Msg: 77)
x_file,
maybe you can ask how Spinoza came to believe what you shared with us, thanks
It's kind of late for me to ask him personally. But judging from his work, all is based on 8 definitions, 7 axioms. Each of the 36 propositions is derived/proved using the definitions and axioms. So, if you are interested on how the propositions are derived, pick up a copy of Spinoza's Ethics (Part 1) and look at the proofs.
A Fortiori (Msg: 86)
But then provide as an example some very common descriptions of god from an educated man.
How are they very common? The common ones, at least among educated people are, omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, infinite and their variations.
How many people state, "There can be, or be conceived, no other substance but God."? The claim, to most normal people, is ridiculous. Look, I'm conceiving of a beer right now:  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 11:55:54 AM | How are they very common? The common ones, at least among educated people are, omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, infinite and their variations.
How many people state, "There can be, or be conceived, no other substance but God."? The claim, to most normal people, is ridiculous. :
"There can be, or be conceived, no other substance but God."?
God is everything, we are all god, etc. Not an alien or advanced notion at all, could very well be considered mainstream, especially among new agers, some pagans as well,educated or uneducated.
Omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, infinite are rather mainstream and common ideas and descriptions of god, shared by christians, jews and muslims, educated or uneducated. These concepts are found throughout their respective religious texts and doctrines, and are taught by the clergy to their respective followers. I'd submit that education, or lack of, does not gaurantee anything when regarding beliefs and notions of god, traditional, advanced, basic, or what have you..
Look, I'm conceiving of a beer right now
Cheers | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 12:16:44 PM | OP, I do not believe that my comments are abusive to you or anyone else. Report them to the moderators for their decision.
I suggest to you that your comments to me violate the rules on a polarized thread:
Polarized Thread
No Thread may exist designated exclusively for Response from a specific Gender, Ethnicity, Orientation, Religion, Public, etc. Such a Thread will be deleted. The entire Concept of a Forum is for anyone to post their Opinions and Thoughts, providing they are On-Topic, on any Threads he or she sees fit.
As an Example:
This is a Question ONLY for the Men to...
This is a Question for the Men to... = No Good !!!
= Is OK !!!
More Examples of No-No's:
Catholics and Mormons need not reply.
I only want truthful Answers from real Lawyers.
I ask that the Elderly not post here because you are not current on ...
This Thread is not a Playground for colored Girls, as I know ...
If you are a MacIntosh-Phobe, don't post here !!!
New Line of Ford Trucks - WOW !!! Chevy Trolls stay out !
You don't like my Recipe, then make your own Thread what you like.
Free Enterprise. Gov't Shleps have no Business in here.
If you haven't been in the Slammer, what are you doing posting ...?
The Common Denominator is:
"You are not Welcome", "Don't post here", "Get Out" ... ie. Exclusion.
Further, any Threads or Topics that cause a similar Type of Polarization may also come under Review on a Case by Case Basis . | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/14/2008 1:05:26 PM | Actually And Can It Be the topic is open to anyone even atheists who believe the way they do. However there is a topic, you chose to ignor. I simply asked you how you came to believe what you believe. Not what you believe, you are more then welcome to talk about your journey to belief, in fact i'd be very curious what made you believe what you believe. I'm sorry if you didn't understand the question and yes telling everyone who isn't a believer that there is no point because those who have been chosen already believe is abusive.
Your thoughts on the topic are more then welcome, I egarly await to hear what brought you to believe as you do. | |
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