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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/21/2008 8:16:06 PM | | Romanticoptimist.......What are you talking about? lol First it my OPINION that you cant hear the tree. I say that because I dint hear the sound. If you think it makes a sound then in turn explain the sound. Since I cant (cause I didnt hear it) I cant say I know it made a sound. As far as me being the final say so, lol I am not and we all know that but you only post that cause you have no argument to my comment. It makes sence so you have no real things to say toward the comment. All you do is attack me personaly. lol Listen state some facts or even some examples where I am wrong then maybe your word would mean something! All you do like most is stand up for your belief but cant defend its loop wholes. Accept reality then I am sure you will find yourself instead of looking for some invisable belief! Maybe not invisable cause you have seen the preffered religious text of your belief? lol | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/22/2008 3:06:41 PM | You know what, I misread your statement so I retract my "final arbiter' comment. But, you can hardly blame me. It's not like you can actually string together actual words to form actual sentences.  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/22/2008 5:56:39 PM | lol right keep taking personal shots at me. lol How christian like is that? Wow!!!!!!!!! Educated believers.........see what I mean. lol represent there belief but dont follow! Jesus & God (occording to the good book) would be ashamed.  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/23/2008 2:48:59 AM | Educated believers.........see what I mean. lol represent there belief but dont follow! Jesus & God (occording to the good book) would be ashamed.
Very true, personally my take is this...
I spent many years absorbing biblical scripture, frankly it left me cold.
“I thought I knew the words, but tune was quite absurd and out of key.”
~Jeff Lynn
How’s that for an epigram? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/23/2008 3:29:36 PM |
And as long as it doesn't undermine your ability to have and use free will within the bounds of the law and without fear of retribution.
It doesn't. What you speak of is religion, even then it clearly teaches you about the greatest gift of all: Free Will and it doesn’t warn you anymore than our legal system does.
The meaning of Free Will has been entirely lost in its concept; and yes that is possible, it is much like Individual Rights…
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t the firm belief in something for which there is no proof one of the many definitions of Faith? So how is it not blind after all?
I don’t care if you add “blind” or “experiential” to it; still doesn’t change the meaning of the actual word itself or makes it more suitable for the intelligent than it is for the uneducated according to many of you.
Faith is faith people; and I really don’t think any of you have the authority to revise the definition of it.
Yes I know, blind faith is the trait of the uneducated whereas experiential faith you know the one with the foundation for it; is the trait of the intelligent…
Gotta love euphemisms…
This is for all of you educated people who dismiss God or our faith in Him because we simply have an ancient book and no proof of its contents.
How are you any different than I am, or what makes you so much more intelligent than I am for doing exactly the same thing I am?
Have you any proof yourself, tangible proof that you have seen, experimented with, at least seen with your own two eyes, that has influenced your faith to be the one of Evolution or whatever it is you believe…
I can almost guarantee that any of the posters here have never had in their hands tangible proof that we owe it all to evolution. Anymore proof than a book or internet data available somewhere…
Is it not a program in television, documentary, books, etc, and brilliant scientists who have influenced your faith in whatever it is you believe in? Yet, you have not experienced any of it have you? In fact if I asked you to prove to me right now your theory, have you anything tangible at hand to do so without any of the above resources?
Will you not refer to a book, or someone else, data on the internet, etc to provide the foundation for your beliefs? Explain to me what is the difference between your foundation for your beliefs and mine and how is your choice anymore intelligent than mine? 
Trust me, your faith is as blind as mine honey…  | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/23/2008 5:02:52 PM |
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t the firm belief in something for which there is no proof one of the many definitions of Faith?
It's also one of the symtoms of schitzophrenia.. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/23/2008 7:48:39 PM | Forumschick.....I see you dont go back and read much. Here is message #81! read up!
Wiki has Faith as "a profound belief or trust in a particular truth, or in a doctrine that expresses such a truth."
The first problem I have with faith is the notion that truth is static. Truth is completely objective and based on each individuals understanding. Understanding is ONLY gained through experience which no two people share.
That's why spirituality/religion has always been difficult to explain to someone else. Unless you have VERY similar leveling of understanding it's almost impossible to try and explain yourself. Not only that but if they do not gain the proper understanding to 'walk on their own' so to speak you will forever either be walking for them or they'll be 'stuck' at one level of understanding indefinitely because they won't have the tools to progress.
(Hmmm sounds a lot like Religion... shh don't think for yourself just do what I say, who cares if you don't UNDERSTAND, if you just go along with me you'll be fine.. well at least until I leave, but don't worry... why would I leave ;) )
It's like someone trying to teach an animal to drive a car. You might be able to get them to drive half decently but will they actually understand that they are driving a car and what it means, the consequences of it (like running people over) or will they simply be doing exactly what you taught them simply because you reward them for doing it.
Now please go read msg 84 and understand there is a difference between fatih and blind faith. Thats why there 2 different words! | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 2:04:03 AM |
Educated believers
Sorry, I skimmed through all the pages but I think the term you're looking for is..
Theistic evolutionist.
Just a few names to research are Kenneth R. Miller, Robert T. Bakker, Francis Collins and how about my fave, George Lemaitre.
I went to catholic school. We had religion class and science class, taught by the same teacher, (a brother) my senior year! The two were separate, not combined like ID tries to do. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 9:28:52 AM |
Truth is completely objective and based on each individuals understanding
If truth is based on each individuals understanding, then truth is subjective. If truth is subjective, then truth is not objective. You are saying truth is objective and truth is not objective. Or maybe you're saying something else. What are you saying? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 10:41:04 AM | Wiki has Faith as "a profound belief or trust in a particular truth, or in a doctrine that expresses such a truth."
The first problem I have with faith is the notion that truth is static. Truth is completely objective and based on each individuals understanding. Understanding is ONLY gained through experience which no two people share.
Wiki fails at defining faith.
Romans 3
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."
Wiki does nothing to define what God's faith consists of. As the scriptures say, when man's faith is not present, then God's faithfulness proves God true.
So contrary to what you are saying, truth is not present in every man's understanding and truth is not subjective to every man's understanding. Truth is based on God's faith and not on man's lack of faith. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 10:42:51 AM |
It's also one of the symtoms of schitzophrenia..
Good one!
I would suggest a dictionary to help you distinguish the difference between hallucinations and faith. However, something tells me that your “high level of education” has enabled you to do so…
Which begs the question; why is it that as long as the objective is to appear or sound intelligent and educated, we are just fine with pretending ignorance?… | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 11:16:49 AM |
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t the firm belief in something for which there is no proof one of the many definitions of Faith? It's also one of the symtoms of schitzophrenia..
What are symptoms of schizophrenia?
Delusions. Delusions are false personal beliefs that are not part of the person's culture and do not change, even when other people present proof that the beliefs are not true or logical. People with schizophrenia can have delusions that are quite bizarre, such as believing that neighbors can control their behavior with magnetic waves, people on television are directing special messages to them, or radio stations are broadcasting their thoughts aloud to others. They may also have delusions of grandeur and think they are famous historical figures. People with paranoid schizophrenia can believe that others are deliberately cheating, harassing, poisoning, spying upon, or plotting against them or the people they care about. These beliefs are called delusions of persecution. http://www.medicinenet.com/schizophrenia/page2.htm#symptoms
Things like always believing your spouse is having an affair, even when it is proved unquestionably false, could be a symptom of schizophrenia. Believing in something that many others of your culture believe in, like G-d, is NOT a symptom of schizophrenia.
It is very, very, very dangerous to make your own diagnosis, because people who diagnose others out of their own beliefs, will equally be likely to diagnose people with clear symptoms of mental illness, as being sane, and then other people wonder why they never noticed that person was a paedophile, or a serial killer, when they had all the symptoms. That is why it is essential to check your facts BEFORE making any claims. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/24/2008 1:27:21 PM | Forumschick.....I see you dont go back and read much. Here is message #81! read up!
Wiki has Faith as "a profound belief or trust in a particular truth, or in a doctrine that expresses such a truth."
No, not really, but what I do though, is post the comments to which I am replying or directing my response. Although, for someone who does (this is you); well, is not looking good either. In my previous post I stated clearly that “a firm belief in something for which there is no proof was one of the many definitions of Faith. I am sorry you missed that…
The first problem I have with faith is the notion that truth is static. Truth is completely objective and based on each individuals understanding. Understanding is ONLY gained through experience which no two people share.
On the above paragraph you are using the word faith when you are referring to the concept of religion.
That's why spirituality/religion has always been difficult to explain to someone else. Unless you have VERY similar leveling of understanding it's almost impossible to try and explain yourself. Not only that but if they do not gain the proper understanding to 'walk on their own' so to speak you will forever either be walking for them or they'll be 'stuck' at one level of understanding indefinitely because they won't have the tools to progress.
(Hmmm sounds a lot like Religion... shh don't think for yourself just do what I say, who cares if you don't UNDERSTAND, if you just go along with me you'll be fine.. well at least until I leave, but don't worry... why would I leave ;) )
Precisely! Religion; not faith, good we are both on the same page now…
Now that we cleared that one up; why would anyone not want to leave religion?
Now please go read msg 84 and understand there is a difference between fatih and blind faith. Thats why there 2 different words!
Message 84:
So blind faith would be the definition of the word Faith that thatottguy found minus the word truth! That would only make sence. Blind faith: a prafound belief or trust in a paticular doctrine that expresses such. Just an idea! That is what believers do!
I did, and now I am lost again; can you elaborate on message 84, I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but hey, I have never claimed to be intelligent
As I have said before; one of the definitions of the word itself implies blindness, regardless of how you are using it, I fail to see the need for redundancy…
Furthermore, what you perceive, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all truth; your truth. Now your truth is important and reassuring the foundation for it is vital. Yet it is not The Truth and will never be.
Therefore, for those who want TRUTH, you have it, it is reflected in every aspect of your life, and your truth defines you almost entirely. It is the same for everyone else; it is precisely the reason conflict arises when one of us will proclaim our truth to be The Truth…
We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect; we apprehend it just as much by feeling. Therefore, the judgment of the intellect is, at best, only our perceptions of half of The Truth, as should also be, if honest, the understanding of its inadequacy…
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/28/2008 6:18:37 PM | free will:
And as long as it doesn't undermine your ability to have and use free will within the bounds of the law and without fear of retribution.
It doesn't. What you speak of is religion, even then it clearly teaches you about the greatest gift of all: Free Will and it doesn’t warn you anymore than our legal system does.
Hi forumschick, the "free will" I referred to is the ability to make choices that are not externally determined and of which the decisions reached are without outside coercion. I can't agree that the religious connotations of Free Will (note capitalization) don't warn you anymore than the general (un-capitalized) term does. Religiously the choice is yours, but not without damaging your immortal changes of survival; this as opposed to perhaps merely mortal ones in general terms - the former certainly no belief of mine. :) | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:45:20 PM | | there is a difference between having proof that things happened a certain way and the possibility that something could have happened a certain way. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:00:39 PM |
Hi forumschick, the "free will" I referred to is the ability to make choices that are not externally determined and of which the decisions reached are without outside coercion. I can't agree that the religious connotations of Free Will (note capitalization) don't warn you anymore than the general (un-capitalized) term does. Religiously the choice is yours, but not without damaging your immortal changes of survival; this as opposed to perhaps merely mortal ones in general terms - the former certainly no belief of mine. :)
I fail to see the difference?
Religiously: Free Will = The choice is mine + consequence
Any other way: Free Will = The choice is mine + consequence
Morally, legally, religiously, and every which way; only one free will exists.
The warnings in “religious connotations” (Sacred Scripture to me) aren’t any more than those of which you can find in the judicial branch section of the US Constitution. Once again, I fail to see the difference…
Regardless of the “truth” to which you are bound, you still have the ability to choose to do whatever you want to do. Nobody can stop you from doing something or make you act accordingly. Should you do so, it will be entirely your choice as well. It really is quite that simple…
Now, I am curious; have you ever chosen to do something, or behaved without outside coercion?
What do you think could be classified as “outside coercion”?
As for “choices externally determined”, which ones are these?
Are you telling me that my actions, behavior, code of conduct, etc. could be determined by someone or something else altogether?
Guess it is safe to say that logic, much like everything else, is indeed in the eyes of the logician huh?
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| Educated believers
Posted: 4/29/2008 6:38:53 PM |
I fail to see the difference?
forumschick
I’m sorry my post didn’t enlighten you… this might serve you better…
Free will in theology:
Free will in theology is an important part of the debate on free will in general. This article discusses the doctrine of free will as it has been, and is, interpreted within the various branches of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology#General
Free will in general:
Foreknowledge and Free Will
First published Tue Jul 6, 2004; substantive revision Thu Mar 13, 2008
Fatalism is the thesis that human acts occur by necessity and hence are unfree. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows infallibly the entire future, then no human act is free.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/ | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/10/2008 7:10:17 AM | To be honest some the most non bright people i have met have a sheet of paper saying.. I'm smart! as a person with some college i've worked with many engineers only to look at them like... are you serious? they had NO clue. not all but a lot.
as reguard to religion and faith . it is personal and what dose a degree have to do with things of the spirit realm? unless it's in that area of study. a persons intelligance is hard to measure to start with and it normaly only pertains to that area of study.
I would also say that the proof is all around you if you look for it. and JESUS say if you see k me with all your heart you WILL find me. I can try all i want to tune in satilight radio on my car but if i don't have a satilight radio to start with it will never happen. God is much like that. he is there and he dose talk to us but if you have no idea how to understand him or know him then you won't here him. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/10/2008 9:55:12 AM |
To be honest some the most non bright people i have met have a sheet of paper saying.. I'm smart! as a person with some college i've worked with many engineers only to look at them like... are you serious? they had NO clue. not all but a lot.
The per capita average of engineers to other trades in the US is 0.4%, except where I live, where it's actually 2.5% owing to the aerospace industry. Dealing with some of these people is like suddenly discovering the *missing link*. Just watching them try to function in everyday life can be amusing at best & lethal at worst.
It's ALWAYS entertaining tho... | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/10/2008 1:18:34 PM | skypoetone, I mentioned in another topic that thought patterns dont' appear to be random. They very much seem to be created and manipulated by external stimulus.
Replaying someones' life without changing a single variable would not seem likely to result in their actions somehow changing.
Usually when something is thought as random it's only because it's too complicated to accurately reproduce, while ensuring all variables are 100% consistent the second time around. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/11/2008 12:11:58 AM | First of all consider this, God is not a thing nor is it of gender. God is "loving thought" which produces "loving actions" in human beings. Loving actions produce loving relationships. Many people believe love is blind. Yet when we are in a loving state of mind our minds are clear. We have vision and peace beyond our understanding. It is not a matter of believing there is a God. It is a matter of being willing to get to "know" God. You must know God in order to know "self" and to know others. In the same way as we decide to get to know each other we have to decide we want to know God not whether we believe in God, but if we want to know God. Our gage for knowing each other is feeling. Loving thoughts produce a peaceful actions, health and wealth. Evil thoughts produce fearful actions, sickness and poverty.
God can not be in the world without man. Evil can not be in the world without man. Both powers work through the "mind." The power is "thought." Because of this fact the last thing you want to do is to practice "blind faith" in anyone or anything.
Getting to know God requires self-discipline and a willingness to give the benefit of doubt concerning what the world teaches about God, love and life, what it is and how it works in life." The same is true of evil or the devil.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience here on earth. Knowing God is individual and personal. All doctrine and religious teachings must be put aside. Each has to find his own truth. You must learn to discern about "thought." The mind contains ego and spirit. Ego is evil or any negative thought. Spirit is loving or any positive thought. In other words anytime you are judgmental, angry, confused sad etc. your ego is the source of thought. Anytime you are calm, peaceful and content Spirit is the source of thought. When you discipline your mind to think as God thinks then you have faith that can move mountains. Many blame God for all of the suffering in the world. The true question is, "What kind of people create suffering in the world? The answer is, "People who think with their "Ego." Faith in nothing is still faith! | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/11/2008 2:14:44 PM | Vancer
skypoetone, I mentioned in another topic that thought patterns dont' appear to be random. They very much seem to be created and manipulated by external stimulus.
Replaying someones' life without changing a single variable would not seem likely to result in their actions somehow changing.
Usually when something is thought as random it's only because it's too complicated to accurately reproduce, while ensuring all variables are 100% consistent the second time around.
Ironically I am struggling to see the connection here. Could you clarify please? | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 5/11/2008 3:31:39 PM | | WoW I been gone for awhile. I have read some of these posts and just had too throw my two cents worth in with a question. How educated do yo have ti be to believe that there is something out there, up there, or somewhere to believe in, just take a little walk in the country ! Look at the beauty the flowers ,the trees ,the grass , and then honestly tell me that there is not something way more complicated than any man, woman, child ,are beast can explain how it all came together, Its way beyond our understanding, but I honestly and completely believe in a creator, a savior, and a reward to those who traet all others as they would like to be treated, those that can forgive, and those that can be the peacemakers for they will know peace , i have said this before, I cant even tell you the actual name of the creator or of my savior, but blindly believe he was ,is ,and will always be REAL and I have trouble believing that his , hers ,or its story is a lie, and feel sad when people, his children ,fight and argue amongst themselfs over who he or she or it is, Without faith ,call it blind faith if you will ALL IS LOST!!! You will never see me again brought into an arguement over who is right are wrong and who they should follow,and I will pray that some of you spend more time following your chosen faith and keep it strong enough to live happy lifes no matter what it is that comes your way be it good or bad, My opinion is if one seeks long enough and listens hard enough he or she will find what they seek. Children of any god were not designed to hate, only to love!!!! and how educated do you have to be to just admit that you do not know, because it is my feeling that no matter how strong your faith is you dont know for sure. | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 6/25/2008 7:13:40 PM | Amen clwtrgirl08!
Jesus taught with parables:
Here's one in the form of a joke:
A third grade student, Johnny, made a statement in class about believing in God. The teacher, a non-believer, wanted to disput his faith.
She asked him to go look out of the window and tell the class what he saw.
He said, "I see the playground, trees, a few birds.....
The teacher asked him if he could see God.
He replied. "Well, no I can't see God but I can see his works."
The teacher said, " Well if you can't see something, you can't really say that it exists."
He replied, "Well Ok...uhhhh Teacher, do you have a brain?"
The teacher said. "Well of course I have a brain!"
Johnny replied, "Well, I can't see it so how can I believe that you have one?" | |
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| Educated believers
Posted: 6/25/2008 7:22:34 PM | Free Will
From the words of Neil Peart, drummer for Rush, ( and in my opinion, a much better misician than Jeff Lynne who is also quoted here)
You can choose a ready guide in some Celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have mad a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness not to kill.
I will choose our purpose here, I will choose Free Will!"
No one is forced to believe in God, it is a Free Will choice. For those who choose not to believe, I believe that He is always ready for you to accept the Truth, once it becomes more evident to you.
This is the way I see it.
My primitive understanding of the Trilogy is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all One.
Can an insect understand the complexities of a human being? How then, can a human being begin to hope to understand all of the complexities of God? We can try, and we should, but we won't know while we walk the earth.
The Holy Spirit of God is alive in each and every human being. Being animals, we don't allow the Holy Spirit to guide our lives to the extent that we should.
Will Jesus Christ return in human form to earth? I don't know, but what if He is already here? How do you treat each and every fellow human being? What if that person was Jesus himself? Would you treat him differently if you knew? Shouldn't we treat each and every person with the respect that is deserving of the Holy Spirit inside them?
Each and every day, our free will allows us to make decisions. God's Blessings are continuously showered upon us, but we don't always realize it. Think of all of the opportunities you have had in your life to become closer to God. How many did you capitalize on? How many times did you choose a path that did not lead to Him?
Everyone sins because all of us are human beings. But we can be forgiven of those sins and we can always turn ourselves towards God in more ways than we usually do.
Does this mean that everyone should pray all day long and not work at something else? I don't believe that. I believe our calling is to learn and grow and love. Just as good parents want the best for their children, how much more does the Father in Heaven want for his children to excel?
The end of our earthly life gives us an opportunity to understand many mysteries that we cannot solve here. I believe that a huge epiphany will envelop us and we will understand more of the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Given that knowledge, we will have the choice to knock on the door of Heaven and seek entrance, or to turn away from God. Surely only the truly evil will choose to turn away from God.
What can separate us from God's Love? Absolutely nothing. He will always be there to welcome us back. Knowing that you have the opportunity to grow closer to God each day that you walk the planet, imagine the shame that you will feel when you remember all of those failed opportunities. But your shame pales in comparison to God's Love and Forgiveness.
It's all Good, so just try to make it better every way that you can.
This is the way I see it. | |
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