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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:56:15 PM |
Well put - and not a damn thing wrong with being old fashioned. You sound like a wonderful lady to me, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be treated like one.
Mark
For those who want to be old-fashioned, it's a free country. Have at it! For those who don't, it's also a free country.
There are many ways to show respect to a lady--as there are many ways to show respect to a gentleman. As long as we're clear that we aren't going to disdain someone who uses a different protocol than the one we've been used to on that basis alone, there's no problem.
With PP's "offer, pay, and drop 'em," philosophy, there isn't time to see what's "cheap" and what's respectful. That's my only problem with it. If a guy is stingy, who needs it?
But the same also holds for a woman. If she offers to pay and then resents it, that's stingy too. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:01:28 PM | "With PP's "offer, pay, and drop 'em," philosophy, there isn't time to see what's "cheap" and what's respectful"
Ace- that's what I'm sayin. It's kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater before you even know if there's bathwater. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:02:19 PM |
my wallet and hers will be opened... it's really no biggie
I can picture it now ... the candles ... the soft music ... the ambience ...... two people locked together
... dissecting the bill.
'You had the lobster - no YOU had the lobster - I had steak with side salad. You must have had the chocolate mousse because that was extra - do you want coffee? because that tips you over.' What a way to start a romance ! .... x
But no! You boldly said you would split 50/50 if she has more than you (beware she might order a la carte!) - can you do it without a calculator? And ... what about a tip??? Who pays that ?
Yikes this could become complicated ....
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:02:46 PM | "You offer to pay, then pay, then dump him because he took you at your word"
That's another thing I can't stand. Mean what you say, and say what you mean. We all know what ASSUME means. Why play that game? | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:06:56 PM | You offer to pay, then pay, then dump him because he took you at your word
No. We decide that we are unsuited, then I offer to pay my half. Don't get hysterical.
Unlikely that I would even date anyone who showed an indication that he didnt want to pay - maybe this is a cultural difference as all the men I know would pay for a date. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:08:38 PM | WOW.... yet again she boggles the mind:
"Yikes this could become complicated ...."
Not for those with a command of higher math.
Total bill = 47.00. 20% tip = 9.40. Total -56.40. Half= 28.20. Gee, THAT took about 30 seconds.
I may have just gained a new insight into why some women have an issue with this subject!
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:26:20 PM | Ok - so I have another dilemma for you RV.
What happens if she has LESS food than you? Would you still split 50/50?
Or would you dissect?
(or ... would you buy her a 'compensatory' rose to round up the difference perhaps?)
30 seconds ... and go!
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:50:44 PM | Ding! Time is up. I shall answer for you. (perhaps you went to get the calculator)
The answer (IMO) would be to take the bill, hold it up in front of her face and tear it into tiny pieces as you laugh carelessly. You had already paid it when she was powdering her nose - what a lovely surprise.
... Coyly she flutters her eyelashes and you feel pride well in your manly chest. You grab her coat and whisk her out into the starlit night, your arm gallantly around her shoulder.
She plants a kiss on your cheek and whispers ...
Just my imagination. I don't know what you would do, but I am pretty certain that your chances of seeing her again would increase if you paid the whole thing without waiting for the colour of her money.
Just my opinion but I am a shameless romantic. Now! Definitely off to bed.  | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:15:03 PM | You just made me vomit, PP!
I have a whole new appreciation for why we see this so differently.
Nope, I'll stay here in the real world and base my relationships on reality, not romantic fantasy. The type of interaction you describe is not at all what I'm looking for. Much more into the earthy types where open discussion and clear communication is the rule, and romance is based on mutual genuine appreciation of one another's personal qualities rather than "scoring points," making grandiosie gestures, or following scripted moves in hopes of achieving stock responses. Let's just be who we are and not hold one another to these rigid roles!
But just to be sure, if on a first date my portion of the bill were greater than hers I'd certainly make sure I paid ALL of my share. Yes, even I have some relic of chivalry left in me I guess! THAT is the kind of gesture that would let a progressive, earthy woman know that I am fair, generous and considerate... attention to detail and a strong sense of fairness. NOT the sense that I am obligated to pay for her fragile self's way, or the sense that I must "earn" the "privilege" of spending time with her through such means. Of course, after the first date I'd hope nobody paid much mind as to who paid which time or whether one's dinner cost more than the other as long as the general idea were equitable. Of course, in the event I were in better shape financially, as things progressed I'd not mind throwing a little extra her way at times. But that should generally be a situational thing or a "gesture" since I'm not looking to be anybody's sugar daddy... a significant difference in ambition and/or income would likely lead to an imbalance of power in the relationship down the road anyhow.
This whole discussion reminds me of the old joke: Man says Would you have sex with me for $1m? Woman says"Sure" . How about for $1.00? "Hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am?" Well, we already established that... now we're just negotiating the price! | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:18:31 PM | What did cave men do when it was time to tip? If your in a covered wagon.. how much do you put in the parking meter? Who was responsible for the horse $hit before the days of the cars? The most romantic suggestion I could make..Pack a picnic lunch...I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches..My most romantic dinner? He paid for dinner but I made the dessert! I can only tell you my secret, It only takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, and a lifetime to prove it."
You can't buy love or happiness, but you can buy ice cream. thats close enough. Chic flicks are a great source of what women think.... not hockey.
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:32:53 PM | rv - there is no way that anyone could misconstrue you were in training to be a Sugar Daddy!
<quote">old joke: Man says Would you have sex with me for $1m? Woman says"Sure" . How about for $1.00? "Hell no, what kind of girl do you think I am?" Well, we already established that... now we're just negotiating the price! </quote>
Dating tip: never ever tell that joke on a date, or when trying to impress a girl - even an 'earthy' type will bite your head off.
'throwing a little extra her way at times' - hilarious and so unashamedly unromantic!
Anyone for Guinness ??
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:40:20 PM | To those who men who go by the old-school gentleman approach... it's all good. I just steer clear of the women who think that is the ONLY way or who want their cake and eat it too. Again, just because a man would prefer his relationships to start off on an equal footing rather than posturing and gestures does not mean he does not have principles by which he lives or that he is not generous or not romantic. Paying is not necessarily posturing or gesturing if doe out of genuine respectful generosity... but REQUIRING that someone else do so is!
Myself, and many of the southern men I know have what you could easily expect us to - an affinity for southern belles. They are truly wonderful, heaven sent creatures - smart, beautiful, charming, graceful, sweet, sassy, funny, very sex, and yet at the same time usually fairly traditional in many ways.
Yes, if you want to date one of those, paying is usually EXPECTED. Now that said, that doesn't mean she might not have more degrees than you do, or earn more money than you do either. It also doesn't mean that she wouldn't want a traditional marriage where everything that comes in is "ours" either. It just really doesn't have much to do with all that at all.
She just expects you to pay because in her mind that is what a gentleman courter does. She appreciates it even more when you are so subtle while paying that it makes it a non issue, an afterthought or a nuisance interruption in your pleasant conversation. To her, that shows at a minimum that you have some class and some respect for her. But can also convey more - that you appreciate her, you're glad to be out on that date with her, and that you're excited to be getting to know her better.
Have you ever seen a woman who puts in her profile, "I refuse to settle"? Aside from what she may be looking for in terms of physical chemistry, my bet is many of them are at least in part referring to issues like these. Many of the ones who absolutely REQUIRE their men to pay on dates are simply saying, I think I'm worth romancing, and if you don't have enough respect or appreciation for me to treat me as I expect a lady to be treated, I'm not going to settle for that." In other words it's become a personal boundary.
Men and women are both equally loved by God, so that makes them equal to me. That said, I do think we prioritize our needs differently. Both genders may feel the need to be loved - but in otherareas we are different. For example, being cherished (or appreciated), and feeling secure may be needs both genders have, but in general those are far more important to women. At the same time, feeling respected, and relevant are usually needs more prioritized by men.
I think this is what creates that "dance" on that first date, and when a man doesn't pay I think at a minimun it really takes the "magic" of that dance away for many women, at least most of the southern belles we southern men tend to adore. I'll tell you this much, if I'm lucky enough to be on a date with one of those women, one I'm really into, the price of her meal is just SO not worth screwing that up! :)
Mark
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:02:36 PM | "even an 'earthy' type will bite your head off."
Only if she were offended because it hit a little to close to the mark. I'd certainly not consider that material to impress a date with, but believe it or not there are women who can appreciate the nugget of truth in that and not be offended one bit.
Of course, the fact that you repeatedly reference Guiness as if implying women don't drink beer is perhaps revealing of you dating your attitudes a bit as well. I know PLENTY of great women who drink beer... including Guinness. Too funny. In fact meeting for a few drinks or a casual dinner is a pretty common first meeting... I don't find that in my age group dating is made out to be this grandiose display of codified gestures... it's just two people who feel some interest/attraction getting together to learn more. Nothing more, nothing less. Why should it be so complicated? The less secure, more traditional, or more materialistic women make a big deal ofwho pays... the progressive, secure, or fair ones don't expect to be given a free pass. Likewise, the ones who are "relationship material" tell it like it is (good clean communication only gets more and more important as things progress), the ones who aren't play games with unspoken rules. It's that simple. Guess which ones get a second date?!
Hunter- again I totally respect that viewpoint, other than when it becomes an "obligation" upon which final judegment is passed. When men judge women by a similar set of rules they are nearly universally called "pigs".
Re: personal boundaries... well, some men also think they're worth enough that they shouldn't have to compensate a woman for spending time with him. Again, it works both ways. The difference is, one is based in fairness and the other is based on entitlement.
All I'm saying is that a lot of women realize that the world has changed, mostly for the better, but realize they can't try to have it both ways and expect to be taken seriously. And likewise, a lot of men have wised up to women who do try to have it both ways. So in the end, a woman who bases an entire relationship's future on such petty matters is probably chasing away a lot of great men. Ironic too that some of the men who would probably most genuinely respect her are the ones who would get filtered by this standard. Not that that the men are missing out on much if that is really her attitude! But a woman who would ditch a guy based on this when all else looks promising is no better than a man who dates based solely on bust measurements or ditches women who don't "put out".
Sure we've all got wants and needs... but there comes a point where both parties must say "it's not just about me". | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:41:14 PM | | Do you guys listen to any of the women on here or are you just going thru your time of the month?....I can't believe how you misconstrue things so that everything we say is bad,as if we are all evil scheming creatures,self centered,totally absorbed and looking to use you all...all you are really doing is showing how cold you all are...get yourselves a dog...one that can pay it's own way...at least the women are relating experiences they have had,yu guys are just whining and ****ing...when one reads these forums it's the same old thing...and you talk about women putting down men...I don't know about you,but I am getting quite an education on this site,and,I think the whole idea of finding a nice fellow with serious intentions,is like finding a needle in a haystack... | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:09:36 PM | "I don't know about you,but I am getting quite an education on this site,and,I think the whole idea of finding a nice fellow with serious intentions,is like finding a needle in a haystack..."
I agree hellofagal! In the opposite gender perspective, of course. It's all the same for both genders!
The whole who pays thing:
I too am a southern man and tend to follow traditional protocol. I accept that some women are independent and all the ramifications that come with it. I actually like a lot of the independent nature of women.
If I extend the invitation for dinner, I expect to treat. If she intervenes, i simply say that I would prefer to buy but, if it's important for her to pay her part - OK!
Bottem line: We are all individuals. I will do my best to be considerate of others and meet in the middle. If for some reason it's not good enough, then we are probably not a good match.
Better to learn that early on, rather than later.
No body is right or wrong, just different.
a few thoughts | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:47:35 PM | My, My, My...
I'm new to POF and thought I'd enjoy the forums...but WOW...I'm exhausted reading such indepth analysis over the who, what, where, when, and why's of paying for a date!! 
So, let me say what stands out for ME...
HEY MARK.... smart, beautiful, charming, graceful, sweet, sassy, funny, very sexy, wonderful, heaven sent creatures AREN'T ALL FROM THE SOUTH!!
Meggie | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:43:23 PM | HG,
I hear you. But I guess I was from that generation who got the crap kicked out of us for being chauvanist pigs, and having been through that, I really don't like being put down for following the new rules.
So I'm just saying that when a guy is doing his best to show you respect in the way that he knows how, you might want to take that into consideration.
But if you don't, it's a reflection your lack of courtesy and not his.
That's all. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 2:29:35 AM | I was from that generation who got the crap kicked out of us for being chauvanist pigs
Those times must have been tough for you! But I don't think that anyone would disagree with the strides that were made in the name of fairness and equality in the workplace, or when it comes to financial affairs.
However, we are discussing the world of dating, an unregulated human activity unfortunately! There are no agreed rules, no curriculum vitaes, no courts. Sometimes things can appear very unfair. We all just have to feel our way, sometimes almost blindly. Sometimes things go wrong or don't work out - this forum is here to try and explain a few things - it has been an education!
It has been my opinion that equality means zilch when it comes to the magic and mystery of romance, and the essence of attraction. Most women like to feel special, loved and cared for. Carving up the bill for a couple of drinks or a meal IS NOT part of that and it really is such a small thing! For you guys who dislike the vulnerability of being madly in love - think of it as a loss-leading investment in a heart-pumping life stock. Or maybe not ...
Perhaps I shall be taking a trip to the Deep South .... Romance is not dead! | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 3:29:44 AM | blueyedgirl93 on 5/17/2008 10 39 AM now that is a brilliant idea, show her what you are really made of and eat off the sample trays at the supermarket, 
Cant help thinking that the first date is the time when you are giving your best to the other person
If someone B*tched to me in public about paying or splitting a bill - he would be so out of my life forever - cos if he couldb*tch in public about food, what is he going to be like when it comes to living together, jeesh, measuring the electric used, the logs burned, he ate six ounces of steak and only paying for his bit.
Nah I prefer a man who wants to take care of me and show me the best of himself, dont want to see the seedier side of them until date two at least, like I say if you return what you get from a person, then that makes them happy --- or does it???? | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 4:29:50 AM | Your solution is in your own words
"(and for once I won't be the one analyzing here..) "
Take it from an ex over thinker... don't overthink first date protocol .
Go.. meet.. talk.. leave.. then see if the communication continues.
Some are real bad with anything close to " I think you are a nice person ,but...." and often you will find out the attraction level down the road.
In this world of increasingly instant gratification , give it some time .... and stop overthinking it !
Best of fortune | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:36:47 AM | "magic and mystery of romance"
Perhaps some of us just don't view it as being nearly so mysterious as others make it out to be. Just saying. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:13:05 AM | dayzyflame,
I am not sure what page you are on with the hobbit story and just shocked I didn't see a response to it... but there are women everywhere trust me... that has had a date with the "Hobbit"....and you so eloquently explained with humor and sensitivity your plight
and men if you don't get it with this message then you will forever be in the dark as to what women want...
I am going to giggle and continue sipping my coffee.... | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:16:38 AM | "If someone B*tched to me in public about paying or splitting a bill -"
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying if the bill came and she couldn't talk about it or refused to open her wallet, while I'd pay it and there'd be no "scene", there'd have to be some pretty good reasons why I'd consider the possibility of date #2. I want a woman, not a girl... the expectation of being provided for and the inability to communicate about something so excruciatingly simple as a restaurant bill are not behavior I associate with a mature, capable woman of the type that I'd seriously consider as a partner. Surely most women wouldn't stay long with a man who talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk... same thing. Just as you women would immediately drop a man who expected you to pay his way because he's "cheap", some of us men see you wanting to set the precedent in such a way and have to figure that this is just the beginning of what you'd "expect" from us. | |
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| Woman paying for dinner = Payoff?
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:17:47 AM | "in the dark as to what women want... "
Much is said of this... but how many women even have a clue what men actually want? Hint, it's not always just about sex. Shocking, I know. | |
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