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 Author Thread: smoking bans
 wvwaterfall

Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 251
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Posted: 6/4/2009 6:26:09 AM

When they did the testing on these drugs they found out that alcohol was indeed a worse addiction then tobacco.


I'm sorry to nit pick, but where does it say in the article that you cited that alcohol is a worse addiction than tobacco? It says that alcohol is more dangerous. It says that potential for addiction was one of three factors in their rankings. It does NOT say that alcohol is a worse addiction, at least not anywhere I can see. Please point out where it says that.

Just to spell this out in detail, because you don't seem to comprehend what I'm saying, it's entirely possible that Alcohol is deemed to have greater impact on society and pose a greater harm to the user, but be less likely to be addictive, leading to an overall rating of alcohol being more dangerous than tobacco. Let's say the panel of experts was asked to rank drugs in those three categories on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being the least dangerous and 10 the most. If Alcohol scored a 10 for impact to society, a 10 for harm to user, and a 1 for potential for addiction, it would score as more dangerous overall than if Tobacco scored a 3 for impact to society, a 5 for harm to user, and a 10 for potential for addiction, even if it had been ranked to have one tenth the potential for addiction.

I'm sure those numbers aren't accurate, but since we don't know what the actual numbers are, we just don't know how this panel ranked the respective potentials for addiction of these two substances, so once again, your citation did NOT support your assertion. You can believe whatever you choose, but you have not presented a logical, defensible, case to sway others to the validity of your argument.

Perhaps there are studies out there comparing the two substances from a purely addiction standpoint. Perhaps we could find out what the breakdown was in this study on that factor alone. I'd go looking, but it's not my assertion. Perhaps since you believe alcohol is more addictive, you could and should do the research to convince the rest of us?

Dave
 SteelCity1981

Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 252
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Posted: 6/4/2009 7:00:17 AM
the physical harm to the user, the drug's potential for addiction, and the impact on society of drug use.

Heroin and cocaine were ranked most dangerous, followed by barbiturates and street methadone. Alcohol was the fifth-most harmful drug and tobacco the ninth most harmful. Cannabis came in 11th, and near the bottom of the list was Ecstasy.


when they factored in those 3 types of abuse Alcohol was 5th overall compared to Tobacco which came in 9th.

I understand exactly what you are saying, but the bottom line is neither you nor I know exactly what the numbers are broken down. I'm just providing the link that suggest to their overall findings. Like I said if you can find diff findings that can counter their claim or a more detailed version with stats i'd like to see it, because I too would like to know what the numbers are when they are broken down into those 3 factors.

I never claimed that my personal view on it was fact, I claimed that I believed it to be true.

Sounds like a plan to me.
 EarlzP

Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 253
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Posted: 6/4/2009 7:42:35 AM
I have no problem stating that I know quite a bit about addiction in general and smoking in particular, why because I have studied it as a laymen for the last eight years and learned as much as possible about addictions of every kind and what the common denominator between all addictions and what causes addictions whether substance or activity related


http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/MISC/addictiv.htm

"To rank today's commonly used drugs by their addictiveness, we asked experts to consider two questions: How easy is it to get hooked on these substances and how hard is it to stop using them? Although a person's vulnerability to drug also depends on individual traits -- physiology, psychology, and social and economic pressures -- these rankings reflect only the addictive potential inherent in the drug. The numbers below are relative rankings, based on the experts' scores for each substance:


100 Nicotine
99 Ice, Glass (Methamphetamine smoked)
98 Crack
93 Crystal Meth (Methamphetamine injected)
85 Valium (Diazepam)
83 Quaalude (Methaqualone)
82 Seconal (Secobarbital)
81 Alcohol
80 Heroin
78 Crank (Amphetamine taken nasally)
72 Cocaine
68 Caffeine
57 PCP (Phencyclidine)
21 Marijuana
20 Ecstasy (MDMA)
18 Psilocybin Mushrooms
18 LSD
18 Mescaline

Research by John Hastings
Relative rankings are definite, numbers given are (+/-)1%



ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/AA71/AA71.htm

Alcohol and tobacco1 are among the top causes of preventable deaths in the United States (1). Moreover, these substances often are used together: Studies have found that people who smoke are much more likely to drink, and people who drink are much more likely to smoke (2). Dependence on alcohol and tobacco also is correlated: People who are dependent on alcohol are three times more likely then those in the general population to be smokers, and people who are dependent on tobacco are four times more likely than the general population to be dependent on alcohol (3).


The link between alcohol and tobacco has important implications for those in the alcohol treatment field. Many alcoholics smoke, putting them at high risk for tobacco-related complications including multiple cancers, lung disease, and heart disease (i.e., cardiovascular disease) (4). In fact, statistics suggest that more alcoholics die of tobacco-related illness than die of alcohol-related problems (5). Also, questions remain as to the best way to treat these co-occurring addictions; some programs target alcoholism first and then address tobacco addiction, whereas others emphasize abstinence from drinking and smoking simultaneously. Effective treatment hinges on a better understanding of how these substances—and their addictions—interact.


Understanding just how alcohol and tobacco interact is challenging. Because co-use is so common, and because both substances work on similar mechanisms in the brain, it’s proving difficult to tease apart individual and combined effects of these drugs. In this Alcohol Alert, we examine the latest research on the interactions between these two substances, including the prevalence of co-occurring tobacco and alcohol use disorders (AUDs), some of the health consequences of combined use, biological mechanisms and genetic vulnerabilities to co-use and dependence, barriers to the treatment of tobacco dependence in patients with alcohol and other drug (AOD) use disorders,2 therapies that are proving effective in treating co-occurring tobacco and alcohol dependence in depressed patients, and treatment interventions for adolescent patients with co-occurring tobacco and AOD use disorders.


I also developed a web site where people who struggle with tobacco addiction can come to share their experiences and their quit journey

Phillip Morris knows what the common denominator between all addictions is and how it effects our bodies chemistry making tobacco addiction one of the hardest addictions in the world to control, that said just like every thing else their will be exceptions to the rule no two people share exactly the same body chemistry so one person may find dealing with addiction more difficult then another.

You will continue to smoke until you know that the state of denial you are in will lead you to possible disease and death. It's your choice and other's should not have to be exposed to the over 4000 toxins you create every time you light up. My freedom and the freedom of others should not be compromised by your addiction. Educate your self on tobacco, read the Phillip Morris papers, learn the extremes that the tobacco industry has went to to ensure that they appeal to children and that their product will be as addictive as possible and then maybe you will know who it is that has taken away your freedom of choice.
 boatswamper

Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 254
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Posted: 6/4/2009 8:27:08 AM

If they ban smoking everywhere, where do you do it?
But they haven't banned it everywhere. You're still allowed to smoke.
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 255
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Posted: 6/4/2009 8:58:20 AM
yes you can still smoke, but smoking like drinking is often a social hobby and its getting harder and harder to find a place that has ashtrays. Sure you can find smokers out on a restertaunt patio, until non smokers complain enough about having the smell the smoke or even make the lame argument that smoke gets into their food.

Sure you have lounges but those often cater to cigar smokers and cigarette smoking in most cases isnt consider appropreate.

Some cities are now moving to ban even the display of smoking tools. Saying even the phamtom smoker can encorage youth to light up.

Where does it end? Even smoking on your own home may be an issue one day.
 SteelCity1981

Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 256
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Posted: 6/4/2009 9:04:43 AM
Where does it end? Even smoking on your own home may be an issue one day.


The day that happens is the day that the U.S. becomes no longer a Democratic nation. When the gov starts intruding into peoples civil liberties like that, then it will be the beginning of the end of Democracy in this nation and the start of Totalitarism.
 Ready4SomethingFun

Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 257
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Posted: 6/4/2009 10:22:15 AM
The day that happens is the day that the U.S. becomes no longer a Democratic nation. When the gov starts intruding into peoples civil liberties like that, then it will be the beginning of the end of Democracy in this nation and the start of Totalitarism.


You mean like making drivers wear seat belts and motorcyclists wear helmets? You mean like cities telling businesses they can no longer allow their customers to smoke even when the larger majority do it (such as bars, smoke shops etc)?
 pirateheaven

Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 258
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Posted: 6/4/2009 1:55:41 PM

Your right this is America and others do have rights for instance children have the right not to be forced to breathe in your tobacco smoke


Take them to a non smoking business. It's as simple as that. However, anti smoking people want to stop smoking EVERYWHERE.
 boatswamper

Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 259
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Posted: 6/4/2009 2:51:15 PM
^^Nah, you're free to smoke all you want just as long as other people don't have to inhale your smoke. It's as simple as that.
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 260
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Posted: 6/4/2009 3:51:37 PM
Well its getting hard. Esepcally for us cigar smokers. I mean at casinos where are smoking friendly, I cannot even play craps at a good table with a cigar in my hand without see the reactions of people....many of them smokers too. Even some of the casino game employees waved their hands in front of their faces when I exhaled and by golly I did my best not to blow the their direction. You know what this is? Its a social stigma that is made for us smokers, if issues of health cant get us to stop then the want and need to have fun with other non smokers can be a good tax on your tolerance. Even Phamtom smokin is under attack. Boatswamper, I take it you dont smoke, if you do then you have to be naive to the BS we smokers have to deal with.
 SteelCity1981

Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 261
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Posted: 6/4/2009 4:28:03 PM

You mean like making drivers wear seat belts and motorcyclists wear helmets? You mean like cities telling businesses they can no longer allow their customers to smoke even when the larger majority do it (such as bars, smoke shops etc)?





Well the gov has a right to est. gov safety regulations on roads considering they are gov owned. If the gov didn't control the roadways there would be no regulations at all and it would be utter chaos.

Those places are in industrial zoning areas which are est. by the gov to allow companies zoning permits on that industrial land. Its a little diff then residential zoning areas, because unlike residential zoning areas, industrial zoning areas have to obey by gov regulations. So if they pass a regulation on that industrial zone those companies have to obey by it. Which is a good thing that every industrial zone has to obey by gov regulations or else you could have industries for example just dumping their waste products anywhere on their land, instead of having to obey by the regulations that the gov has set forth for byproducts to be disposed of properly.

So yeah some of the things that the gov can do could be alittle annoying but if you look at the entire picture of those two things i'm glad that the gov does regulate them for the reasons I mentioned.
 Ready4SomethingFun

Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 262
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Posted: 6/4/2009 5:48:23 PM

Well the gov has a right to est. gov safety regulations on roads considering they are gov owned. If the gov didn't control the roadways there would be no regulations at all and it would be utter chaos.


Oh, I'm sorry, I thought "we the people" who payed the taxes that fixed the roads might have a little say so.

Seat belt and helmet laws are nothing but ways for cities to make money. Nothing more, nothing less.



Those places are in industrial zoning areas which are est. by the gov to allow companies zoning permits on that industrial land. Its a little diff then residential zoning areas, because unlike residential zoning areas, industrial zoning areas have to obey by gov regulations. So if they pass a regulation on that industrial zone those companies have to obey by it.


Actually bars and smoke shops would be in commercial zoning areas. Inudstrial zones are those zones where they used to manufacture things back in the days when we did stuff like that. And smoking laws are not passed on specific zones, they are passed by states/and cities, with no regard to individual businesses.



Which is a good thing that every industrial zone has to obey by gov regulations or else you could have industries for example just dumping their waste products anywhere on their land, instead of having to obey by the regulations that the gov has set forth for byproducts to be disposed of properly.


Has nothing to do with the subject at hand really, but why shouldn't those who pay the taxes on these areas be able to decide (within limits--I agree with you on the dumping) weather or not they can do certain things.
 SteelCity1981

Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 263
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Posted: 6/4/2009 6:36:40 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought "we the people" who payed the taxes that fixed the roads might have a little say so.


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:DMMfIgH_y5gJ:www.crab.wa.gov/wsace/Documents/AOKArticles/Article18-04WhoOwnsRoads.pdf+Do+gov+owns+roads&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

No it was to improve the safety of drivers and cut cost on personal injury that's why they did it.

According to the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration, over the past 10 years, safety belts have prevented some 55,600 deaths; 1,300,000 injuries and saved more than $105 billion in costs. Among passenger vehicle occupants over 4 years old, safety belts saved an estimated 10,414 lives in 1996.


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:VPhbV4lmTn0J:www.bamberg.army.mil/SAFETY%2520OFFICE/Seatbelts.ppt+why+is+it+mandatory+drivers+to+wear+safety+belts&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Higher Seat Belt Use Could Save Many Lives, Study Shows as 'Click It or Ticket' National Enforcement Campaign Kicks Off

An estimated 1,652 lives could be saved and 22,372 serious injuries avoided each year if seat belt use rates rose to 90 percent in every state, according to a new report. The research, based on 2007 data, also estimates seat belts saved a stunning 15,147 lives that year. “Wearing a seat belt costs nothing and yet it’s the single most effective traffic safety device ever invented,” said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. The study was released May 14 on the launch of the “Click It or Ticket” nationwide enforcement campaign (May 18-31). Speaking at a Virginia high school, LaHood underscored the worrisome reality that seat belt use rates are relatively low among teenagers. Of 4,540 16-to-20 year old passenger vehicle occupants killed in 2007, 2,502 were unbelted at the time of the crash. Teen belt use is especially low at night. In 2007, nearly two-thirds of the 16-to-20 year olds killed in nighttime crashes were unbelted.


http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

Commercial zones are still regulated by the fed or state gov. Furthermore as I do recall it was the people that voted in many states to ban smoking from such areas. In Florida for example people voted to apporve the ban on smoking in public dinning places and that's fine by me, because it was voted on by the people.
 boatswamper

Joined: 3/11/2007
Msg: 264
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Posted: 6/5/2009 8:06:50 AM

Boatswamper, I take it you dont smoke, if you do then you have to be naive to the BS we smokers have to deal with.
You're right, I don't smoke ( I do smoke a cigar after a successful moose hunt, but that's about it). I can understand your not liking the fact you can't smoke where you once could, but that doesn't mean you can't smoke at all as some here have suggested. You're not naive to the BS we non-smokers have had to put up with are you.
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 265
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Posted: 6/5/2009 9:03:29 AM
Oh I am aware, and the complaint about health problems is nothing short of BS. An annoyance I can understand, but healthwise and also rejecting the rights of us smokers seems to be the case these days rather than a fair understanding that both have rights.

glad you at least smoke a rare cigar though, there may be hope for you yet!!!
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
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Posted: 6/5/2009 10:35:59 AM
Oh and one more thing, I used to be a antismoker not long ago, so I know both sides of the arugment.
 FooledU2x

Joined: 5/30/2009
Msg: 267
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Posted: 6/5/2009 11:42:14 AM

Oh I am aware, and the complaint about health problems is nothing short of BS. An annoyance I can understand, but healthwise and also rejecting the rights of us smokers seems to be the case these days rather than a fair understanding that both have rights.


Go have a talk with a cardiologist.


Oh and one more thing, I used to be a antismoker not long ago, so I know both sides of the arugment.


And then have a talk with a psychiatrist.
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 268
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Posted: 6/5/2009 1:20:31 PM
awwww the smoking is bad for your heart arugment. I wont disagree with cigarettes but cigars nope. Read Monograph 8. Even anti smokers have worse a chance of getting colonary heart disease than cigar smokers.

As for the psychiatrist comment, why dont you contribute to this debate in a more productive way than personal attacks.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 9/17/2008
Msg: 269
smoking bans
Posted: 6/5/2009 6:25:25 PM
Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) did die at 72 from angina...mind you his habit was 40 cigars a day...40! 72 is a good run for that age...he cut back to 4 a day when the angina kicked in

Considering the massive economic failure due the USA from the baby boomers hitting retirement age and living longer, collecting medicare and medicaid never mind social security, maybe a few more should have continued to smoke a little more? 70-75 ish is a good run if you have quality of life and Clemens surely did.

*eyeing the humidor*
 SteelCity1981

Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 270
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Posted: 6/5/2009 9:05:01 PM
Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) did die at 72 from angina...mind you his habit was 40 cigars a day...40! 72 is a good run for that age...he cut back to 4 a day when the angina kicked in


living to be 72 back then was is like living to be 100 today that's how rare it was when the avg life expectancy back in 1910 the year that he died was 48 and that's with him smoking all of those years too.
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 271
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Posted: 6/5/2009 10:27:46 PM
living to be 72 back then was is like living to be 100 today that's how rare it was when the avg life expectancy back in 1910 the year that he died was 48 and that's with him smoking all of those years too.


interesting thoughts! Samuel Clements lived one hell of a life ~ world traveled, ~ adventurer , publisher, author , writer, ~ inventor , investor, husband and father. Rags to riches to rags ~ Born on the crossing of Haleys comet and died on Haleys comet. ~ not an ordinary man by any telling.

I smoke ~ and I fight it ~ everyday! ~ they are delicious! and they are robbing me!

In a way ~ America was discovered ~ in the search for trade routes to herds and spices.

Tobacco was desired by royality, kings and such.

how times change !

seems we've forgot who brought us to the dance?

Dance
 bigshrek

Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 272
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Posted: 6/6/2009 3:26:47 AM

Seat belt and helmet laws are nothing but ways for cities to make money. Nothing more, nothing less.


As a motorcyclist and retired firefighter...I have to wonder what you are smoking???

I can only hope you were being sarcastic...or trying to be funny.

I've scraped my fair share of fellow riders off the pavement...those who wear helmets tend to survive to limp another day

Having a little hitch in your walk is far better than being stuck in a jar on someone's mantle.

And seat belt laws...we shouldn't have HAD to make LAWS about wearing seat belts...you would think that just watching a few car crashes would do the trick...but Noooooo...because Humans with IQ's of less than 125 are inherently Self-Destructive.

Last words of the foolish...."Hey y'all, watchiss!!

 Ready4SomethingFun

Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 273
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Posted: 6/6/2009 7:07:45 AM

Last words of the foolish...."Hey y'all, watchiss!!


Problem is they, more often than not, are the ones who live, they just take out a few innocent seat belt & helmet wearers in the process. My point was you shouldn't need it dictated to you, if you are stupid enough not to do it without the threat of a fine hanging over your head, then you get the consequences.
 EarlzP

Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 274
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Posted: 6/11/2009 12:36:17 PM
Great News Better Late Then Never

SENATE PASSES FDA REGULATION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS

Today, the U.S. Senate passed the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act with a landslide, bipartisan vote of 79-17. Forty-five years after the first Surgeon General's report linking cigarette smoking to lung cancer, the most deadly product sold in America will no longer be the least regulated!

This legislation represents the strongest action Congress has ever taken to reduce tobacco use. Today’s historic vote brings us right up to the finish line in the decade-long battle to grant the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) the authority to regulate the manufacturing, marketing and sale of tobacco products. The House of Representatives passed similiar legislation in April. President Obama has indicated that he is eager to sign it into law
 seattleartist

Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 275
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Posted: 6/11/2009 1:16:32 PM
Thats great, now Cigars are gonna get even more expensive. I mean the SG report in the 60s didnt link cigars to cancer, they only state smoking wasnt as safe as once though. To this day there is no formal linkage to tobacco smoke and cancer.
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