| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/27/2008 6:53:44 AM | G'day,
There was an article in the newspaper about stuff up at funeral in Victoria somewhere.
A family wanted to view their mother for one last time instead they found another woman in their mother's place. The family's mother was already buried at the cemetery under different grave and coffin.
The family is threating to sue the funeral home for emotional distree and other damages. The funeral director think his name was either Edward or Chris Bull. What had happen is employee mixed up the wrong coffin lids on the deceases coffin before going to wherever they needed to go.
Guess the funeral home and the family must of been relieved that their mother was not cremated. The funeral director dismissed all the funeral costs becuase of the stuff up they caused to the family.
Hate to have that happen to my family or anyone else that I know.
jen | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/27/2008 4:03:41 PM | WHOA... Pookie... Granted I'm very very tired right now, so maybe I'm not reading this correctly...
Did you just say that a dead body SAT UP? (and considering that the previous poster made comments about moans and groans) Maybe you should go a tad deeper into this subject? | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:14:43 PM | Hi Jen
The funeral director you mention is Edward ( Ted ) Bull and Sons located on the Mornington Peninsula of Victoria.....and yes what you stated was true... there was a mixup with he deceased and the family got to view the wrong person.......and I cant think of anything more stressful and horrific
It is beyond me how this happens...I know where I work...we keep a name band on the decease's wrist d which we discreetly hide,....we then check the name tag, to the mortuary records and also with the type of coffin the deceased it so be placed in. Before we place the deceased in the coffin, a second person double checks the name tag, withe mortuary paperwork and the coffin to ensure that nothing can go wrong.
Prior to a viewing taking place, as the viewing is set up, two people double check the name tag, the paperwork and the type of coffin the deceased is to be placed in, to ensure that this nitemare doesnt happen....this is how big companies operate and Im surprised that a smaller company doe not follow the same procedure....this is a funeral directors worse nitemare and of course naturally the absolute worse possible scenario for the family.......no amount of money will compensate them for what they have been thru, but I feel they must sue in order for that particular funeral home to put some procedures in place and make sure that they are adhered to
Sadly and this is public record, this is not the first time this company has been in trouble..There was a incident several years ago where one of the directors left the cremains of a deceased on the doorstep of a clients home and other issues have happened...not very professional
The funeral industry is not regulated in Australia and personally I do not think that is a good thing. There is the AFDA - Australian Funeral Directors Association, which was set up by funeral directors for funeral directors o we could keep in touch, self regulate and educate each other, but this is not compulsory to join this, however at the end of the day, to a degree we answer to the Department of Health but pretty much no one else....and I do think that this needs to be rectified. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:45:09 PM | Hi Springazure44
******************BIT OF GRUESOME READING AHEAD **********************
No you werent too tired...and yes quite a few bodies ..."move" and "sit up" !!!
And the first time this happens and no one tells you about it, it blows you away !!!
It happens for several reasons....
One - usually people die within a few hours of eating...accordingly the stomach is the first area where decomposition commences and it is rapid.....as the undigested food stays in the stomach, as it cant be processed, it starts to create gases ...and those gases have to escape or they will try to blow thru the stomach cavities (this does happen every so often) so the gases leave via the mouth or anus....so yes corpses do burb and fart - sorry to be so crude.....The buildup up of gases , if they are intense, can at times cause the body to "sit" up due to the pressure in the stomach region , as they try to escape thru the nearest cavity.
Another reason a deceases sits up is that the muscles are all contracting into rigor mortis and then relaxing after the rigor mortis phases passes...accordingly as the muscles in the body contract and the deceased in laying on their back, they will often slowly (and it is slow) , sit up....this is pretty common..mainly in people who have died a natural death or elderly people....Can be a disconcerting when you leave the mortuary to return to see one of your clients sitting full up on a slab...you do get use to it though...!!
Because it is purely muscle contractions, they will "sit up", they will "shiver," and move their eyes...and sometimes will have violent muscles spasms..and that really does give you a scare...this process lasts for about 6-8 hours after death as the gases are leaving the body and the muscles go into the rigor mortis phase..
This is why it is imperative that we get a official death certificate from the attending doctor stating that the deceased is in fact ...deceased..sounds weird but there has been times when Ive gone ..whoa...are you really dead ???? ..god I hope so !!! and this is why we rarely work on a deceased the same day they die...partly because we often chasing paperwork and cant commence embalming until all the paperwork is in order... and two ....just in case...a few hours in a fridge will definately sort out who is dead or alive !!!
Yes its very disconcerting when it happens and when you get a new member on staff, it would be fair to say that its one of their intiation rituals...to see how they will cope with it.....kids nowadays are smarter than I was...I was completely freaked out the first time it happened to me.....even now as Im driving along in the transfer vehicle - this is the refrigeratied vehicle used to transfer deceased persons - usually 4 at a time...every so often they will sit up quite suddenly and violently and the poor dears will hit their heads on the "racks" of the vehicles. Not much we can do about it, its rare and does happen and can freak you a bit when you hear it...you just turn the radio up louder...
However before I commence the embalming procedure..I do a small trick that my Mortuary Science professor taught me...I do it no matter what condition the body is in (e.g. headless) this technique is to prove their dead.....I always just nick the fingertip of one of their fingers with my scapel.....dead people dont bleed !!! as all the blood pools to their back and stays there.....so if their finger bleeds.....whoa now I am shitting myself !! sorry to be so blunt...
Several years ago in NZ, a embalmer went to perform the embalming procedure....to commence this the first thing we must do is cut into the carotoid artery...this embalmer did that and blood started gushing out, as it would as its the second main artery located in the body direct to the heart....the "deceased" was a elderly lady who was in fact not dead......and a huge inquiry was held into how this could have happened....sadly the lady died within minutes on the mortuary slab, as you would when you are "nicked in carotoid" and the embalmer had a nervous breakdown and never worked again......needless to say....when Im with a client...I like to ensure they are dead !!!
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/28/2008 7:46:26 AM | I would hate think what it would be like to have deceased person to have bowel explosion and crap all over the staff member. In middle of preparing the body for burial or cremation.
I hope you wear masks and other protective gear? Hate to think of what it would be like to taste and feel someone else body fluids as you prepare them for burial or cremation service accidently
jen. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/28/2008 10:42:59 PM | Hi Jen
Well Im pleased to say that a "explosion" is not common but yes it does happen..however as it does take a long time for it to happen, so the embalmer usually has time to deflate the situation in more ways than one but yes Ive seen it happen twice and its is a unholy mess and well words cant really describe it but is pretty much looks like a film trailer for a B grade horror movie !!! and lets not mention the smell !!
Yes we do wear protective gear...at all times..prior to the embalming procedure taking place. Once a body is embalmed correctly, MOST of time the body is then free of infection.
The funeral industry was one of the first industries apart from medicine/dental to embrace a very strict infection control programme, when HIV became prevalent and we became aware that certain viruses like HIV can actually live outside the body....so we pushed for safety clothing etc and proper training in handling the deceased....and Im pleased to say that Infection Control training is mandatory with most of the large funeral homes.
Many years ago I worked with a guy who was in the mortuary and somehow he tripped and he grazed his ankle along some concrete that was jutting out of one of the "drains' that body fluids escape along the mortuary floor (bit hard to explain)....he thought nothing of it......several months later it was found that he contracted Hep C PROBABLY from this graze being exposed to the unseen virus that was probably living in that concrete drain....now each nite mortuary is scrubbed and disinfected and cleaned..no good embalmer will leave his/ her "office" until its immaculate however it just goes to show how some viral strains can live otuside the body and are immune to scrubbing and disinfectant....it was never proven that this young chap did get the Hep C from the drain, but all other possibilities were ruled out.....and so it appeared to be the most logical place, he went out on Workers Comp and sued the funeral home and won but ended uphaving a Liver transplant...
We we picked up a deceased person from anywhere, (hospital, nursing home, coroner etc) we must always treat them as contagious..even though they may not be, we do not know, so hence we always were gloves, aprons and if necessary eye protection etc and wash and disinfect all the time.......although someone may have died from say a heart attack, we arent to know that they may have say HIV/Aids for instance or even TB which is prevalent nowadays since we stop screening for TB on migrants a few years ago. Hep A and B are also rife and whose to say one has it and doesnt know......so we treat all people as "contagious" in order to protect ourselves and our colleagues. We are innoculated each years against Hep A, B, Typhoid, etc but theres some nasties out there and you have to be thorough and cautious in your approach to a deceased, irrespective of their cause of death...its not disrespectful to the individual just realistic.
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/28/2008 11:55:44 PM | I was just thinking if a person had bag attached to their bowels and not able to crap the normal way. A person may of have had bowel cancer and instead have a bag attached. In your previous posts you were saying that gases in the deceased body are trying to escape from any holes such as mouth, nose, ears, eyes, and of cause the anus.
That is why I wrote the previous post as I was curious no one mentioned what would happen, if a person had bowel bag attach to their body, and it exploded on the person who was embalming the deceased body.. The poor person who has to attend to embalm might get unpleaseant suprise of having bag going bust. Ending up with sh%t all over them and everything else.
My guess the person would need to have couple long showers and use industrial strenght soap.
jen | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/29/2008 1:34:39 AM | Sorry Jen
Perhaps I misunderstood you....Ive never had a bowel bag explode as such...a colostomy bag yes but have never had them explode on me, more like the stomach exploding instead....but the bottom line is that bodies purge - technical term for vomit or leaking of bodily fluid thru all cavities and sadly we do get covered in it...not nice but a occupational hazard.....I can assure you I shower on average (on a busy day) 4 times a day....because of this...even though I wear scrubs and a industrial apron, body fluid still does tend to makes its way onto me, as does embalming fluids and chemicals...so its a pleasant mixture and smell......NOT .....so yes I shower ALOT cover my self in perfume ALOT and have many many changes of clothes at work !!
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:14:44 AM | Hope you wear a industrial mask as well to everything else you wear.
I have interested in Occcupation Health and Safety that is why I am asking.
Thanks for information and for putting this thread up it is very helpful in many different ways.
You certainly have debunk many myths that were floating out and about in regarding to death industry.
Certainly don't sugar coat things and make things all nice and gooey. Tell how it is minus the BS.
I don't think I want to work in death industry unless its just doing the paperwork that would be ok.
cheers jen | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:16:41 AM | Thanks Jen for your support of the thread...Ive tried to keep in true and state the facts as it is..no sugar coating...and yes I can assure you we always wears masks and protective eye gear...always
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/30/2008 2:39:22 PM | Hey pookiespal, as others have said, this is a great thread. Have read from start to here and do appreciate your honest answers.. along with the warnings!!!
I wonder is there anything (beside the making of a will and maybe funeral plan) that you as a professional would tell us lay people? So many times I hear from professional people that people 'not in the know, dont need to know'. Anything like that, that you could share?
Thanks again. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:16:15 PM | Hi Taralaraa
Thanks for your question
I had to ponder your question for a while and try to remember myself as a lay person as to whats needs to be addressed... I decided to look at the things that people argue about at a funeral arrangements and make no bones (excuse the pun) about it...people have no issue arguing in front of a funeral consultant..it can be highly embarrassing...and they dont care....Ive seen some doozies !!
Anyway as I have stressed making a will is no 1, however a will is often read after the funeral and therefore funeral requests can be overlooked because the person put their funeral requests in a will and nobody knew..so the next thing I would say is even if you dont officially prepay or preplan your funeral with a funeral company...at least make your request known to family members or friends.
For instance please tell them who your executor is...therefore the funeral director will take instructions from them and them only as is the legal requirement - very important in this time of fractured families and so many step parents, children, etc...
Secondly inform people whether you wish to buried or cremated...this is a huge issue and provokes the most argument among family members because some people have very strong views on either method and will think nothing of slugging this out with other family members - as there is quite a big difference in price as well, some people will take the cheaper option - cremation, just so they dont have to pay the cost of a burial and disregard what others want. From a funeral directors point of view we need to know this strait away as there is different paperwork for each method and we must get the correct paperwork in order asap otherwise we legally cannot do anything either...so make sure others know what your preference is. This can save alot of hassle for your loved ones in the future and if you legalise it by preplanning/prepaying..even better...
If you are a wearer of jewlery, again letting someone know whether you wish to have this removed and given to others or to stay with you, is very improtant as well...this can be a very combustible situation as people fite over wedding/engagement rings etc...Ive seen lawsuits lodged over this issue...so again make it clear what you wish to do in this regard.
Organ donation I think is a huge issue and one to discuss with your loved ones when the time is appropriate..I know it provokes strong views but if you die suddenly and organ donation is a option then trained hospital staff will approach your family...if they have some idea what your wishes are then this question can be answered quickly and simply without agony.....there are two types of organ donation - "live" which is when yo are ruled legally as brain dead and they keep you alive so the removal of the donated organs eg heart, lung, liver can be performed or "dead" donation so your deceased and your bones, skin, corneas etc can be harvested...you can be dead for several days and this still can be done.....Australia has the lowest rate of donation in the world and to be honest I know is a powerful emotive issue but saving someones live or giving them a better quality of life has got to be a the way to go however all wishes regarding this issue must be respected....
I would always encourage a family to shop around for the best prices regalding funeral services...traditionally people always used their local funeral director who buried Mum and Dad etc..thats fine but in this day and age, as with all business, I suggest you look for the best price in your budget...People havehabit of dying when its least convenient to you financially....theres nothing wrong with shopping around for a funeral...its sounds kinda cold and awful but your about to pay for a service costing several thousands of dollars, so why wouldnt you. ?....if your happy using your local funeral director who has alsways serviced the family, then thats fine.....funeral companies rely on return business and word of mouth....and a good funeral director will provide you with all that you need...our silent motto is nothing is too much trouble.
The are shonky operators out there and there is not much that can be done about them as this industry is not regulated (as I mentioned above) so the only thing I can say is if your paying for a really cheap funeral which may be all you can afford, thats fine....but I can asure you tht you get what you pay for and if a small operator is charging way below the average funeral cost..then his cutting costs somewhere and I know where but wont share that (unless requested)....but its not very nice and horrible to go there..so be aware you do get what you pay for....there is place e for these kinds of operators but Im sure they arent truthful to the family on how their costs are cheaper...sad but true.
If you decide to legalise all of this make sure someone knows where the papper work is...either at your home in the draw, with your lawyer or with your chosen funeral direcotr..this is kinda important !!!
At the end of the day thats all I can think of off the top of my head...a good funeral director will welcome you into their home, patiently lead your thru the arrangement and the maze of paperowrk and you should leave there feeling less stressed and you should feel taken care of...for a few hours you let us into your lives to share a very stressful time and you should fee l that for a short time we are part of your family, a relative who has lifted a burden/weight from your shoulders and when all is done we should be a even better relative who slips away to let you be only to be available should you need us again in the future.
Cheers
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 5/31/2008 8:30:19 PM | "The are shonky operators out there and there is not much that can be done about them as this industry is not regulated (as I mentioned above) so the only thing I can say is if your paying for a really cheap funeral which may be all you can afford, thats fine....but I can asure you tht you get what you pay for and if a small operator is charging way below the average funeral cost..then his cutting costs somewhere and I know where but wont share that (unless requested)....but its not very nice and horrible to go there..so be aware you do get what you pay for....there is place e for these kinds of operators but Im sure they arent truthful to the family on how their costs are cheaper...sad but true."
Do tell, Pookie. People do need to know what it is they're getting, cut price (cut corners) or not.
I saw my friend the other day, the one whose husband died suddenly but had the forethought to ensure his family's security and also donated his organs... I'm pleased to say that, while Mich still looks very sad (of course) she at least isn't stressing about how they'll survive or dealing with a death intestate.
I know you've said it til you're blue in the face, Pook... but I'll say it again- HAVE YOUR WILL PREPARED!! Or updated! And make your nearest and dearest aware of your intentions re organ donation and burial vs cremation.
My family know to send me to the butcher, get all the fillets you can to help others then pop the rest in the ground. We also know that when Mum goes, she doesn't want a funeral service- she wants to donate any viable organs and if nothing's usable, send her off to the Uni for students to learn from. As my Mum isn't the nicest person, one of my friends suggested that it'd be really interesting for the med students to see someone who managed to walk, talk and breathe but be completely cold-blooded and without a heart...  | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/1/2008 12:38:12 AM |
when Mum goes, she doesn't want a funeral service- she wants to donate any viable organs and if nothing's usable, send her off to the Uni for students to learn from
My nanna chose this option partly I think because she'd always been careful with her money and it avoids the cost of the funeral. However she lived to be 99 and when it came to the crunch the university found that her body wasn't suitable for preservation because her veins had collapsed. So she had to be cremated anyway. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:42:56 PM | Hi Ooopises
Apologies for not getting back earlier, been away !!!
Mm Ok..I hate telling this as for me this is so upsetting....If your a shonky funeral director cutting costs then the most common thing you do is no storage or refrigeration facilties...so for instance a operator literally operates out of his back yard ( a masive saving instead of premises),...collects the deceased, (at a time when it suits him so normally wont come out late at nite for instance so your stucke with the body) brings them back to his home...put thems in a cheap nasty coffin, no embalming or cleaning of the deceased, they are just popped into a coffin as they were when they passed on, lid nailed shut so the family cant see them, no refrigeration..the deceased deteriorates as they have spent a couple of days out in the garage and then a the funeral service, the family are told to sit as far away from the coffin as possbile at the venue due to smell - but the family will told that its because the relative deteriorated too quickly but5 will be charged for embalming. Another reason family is told sit back from the coffin is partly so they cant see how cheap and nasty the coffin is , cant smell the deceased and at times plastic/silk flowers are used instead of real floral tributes....and the only lingering memory you have of the day is the smell of air freshener..I kid you not but some people want funeral likes that...but to me this is way too distressing !!
I'll say it again MAKE A WILL..even today in th finance section of our paper in Victoria, Australia - The Herald was this little article written about wills which I will share. Please I am not a lawyer and I always stress that you seek legal advice regarding these matters
Quote" If you die without a will you are deemed "intestate" this means your assets will be distributed according a government formula. In the State of Victoria Australia the formula states that the first $100,000 of your estate goes to your partner, together with one third of the remainder of the estate.
The other remaining two thirds will be shared equally between your children regardless of their age.
NOTE: Superannuation does not form part of your estate, when you die it is either up to the trusttes of the superannuation fund to decide who receives your money - MANY PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW THIS !!! Super is not part of your will unless you make it... If you want your super money to go to your partner...you should have a BINDING nomination with your super fund.
If you die with your partner without a will you are potentially leaving a VERY COSTLY mess for someone to fix. GET LEGAL ADVICE.....
NOTE THE ABOVE APPLIES ONLY FOR THE STATE OF VICTORIA IN AUSTRALIA AND YOU SHOULD CHECK OTHER STATES FOR CURRENT INFO AS INFO MAY VARY STATE TO STATE IN AUSTRALIA.
Oopsie your not the first person to comment on what drives some people (Ive often been asked when Im embalming could I please check if the deceased really had a heart !!!)
Mmmmm all I can say on that one...to be gracious,is this....that person, now deceased served their purpose here ...and have now ritely in Gods time moved on to another plane to do more work....and thats the nicest way to put it cause we all have someone in our lives who we question what does run thru their veins..I can assure you we all bleed the same color !!! and I guess thats all I can on that !!!
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:46:37 PM | Hi Dime..how are you ?
This used to be a popular method of disposal by practical people because we do need cadavers to work on...and I know when I was in Mortuary School this was driven home to us...when I was studying,I was told that they actually had a excess in donations however I believe that there is now a shortage...!!!
Either way I know that people like myself and meds students etcare very grateful for this opportunity and my understanding is they can only take a cadaver up to the age of 70 years of age..exactly as to what you mentioned Dime..collasped veins and also organs..
Thanks for yoru comment. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:08:18 PM | Hi Pookie,
this is a great topic, i too have read it from start till now and decided instead of being on the sidelines looking in i would jump in and ask a question or two.
my question is, why when one is cremented do they burn you in the coffin as well? wouldn't it be better to have a drop bottom on the coffin and a collection tray just for that person, that way your only getting the remains of your loved one, not the coffin as well. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:28:02 PM | Hi Someonesmum
Thankyou for your question and apologies in taking so long to get back to you...very sick hard drive !!!
Yes the coffin is burnt with the deceased providing the coffin/casket is wood ...if there is metal in or on the coffin (handles) etc then its is removed prior to the cremation. The only other thing removed is the nameplate off the coffin, it sits in a special groove outside the cremation chamber so your name plate follows your ashes all the way thru the cremation process AT ALL TIMES.....
My question back is although there is some thought in the question you pose and I think you may be coming from maybe a economical or enviromental thinking, ...what would one do with all the left over coffins ? as under the Health Regulations of Australia, they cant be reused so we would be left with all these coffins and remember they have been exposed to POSSIBLE bodily fluids ... and no ones seems to have come up with a reasonable solution to that one...
Cheers | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:41:35 PM |
what would one do with all the left over coffins
What if the coffins were made of stainless steel or some other sterilisable material, or plastic that can be recycled? Would the expense of changing the system be worth it?
How much cremains would you actually get if there was no coffin content? Maybe it would be so little as to be difficult to manage. | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:13:33 PM | Hi Dime ..hope you are well
No coffin irrespective of being made of steel, wood, or plastic-can be reused due to the fact that whilst embalming kills MOST viruses that may be in the blood stream at the time of death, we know that few people are embalmed today, so therefore most bodies are carrying contamination that even the deceased may not have known about and that can be in any bodily fluid but mainly blood...people talk about a resuable coffin but I cant see it happening...not due to the "greed "of any funeral director or the coffin manufacturer but simply due to very strict health regulations and lawsuits and if a crematoria worker was to have a workplace accident involving somehow a reused coffin, I think the lawyers would go to town.....I just cant see it happening...
If it was to happen, I think the expense would be justified in answer to your question as more and more people are chosing the cremation option...but the people to convince would be a government department and you know what thats like !!!.
Surprisingly the average cremains weighs approx 1-2kgs.....of that perhaps 1/2 kilo is actually of the deceased....and with young people etc even less as you can imagine. It would be fair to say, that MOST of the time, the cremains are predominantly "coffin"
Cheers Dime | |
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| The Death Industry - What you always wanted to Ask !
Posted: 6/4/2008 3:31:42 PM | HiSomeones Mum
No such thing as not a good question if it makes you think and question!!!
And Im sure others thought it too and were too afraid to ask.
Thanks for your contribution..
Cheers | |
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