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 Author Thread: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 76
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 9:44:22 AM
IDer's keep getting an egg on their face every time they declare something in particular irreducibly complex.

By the way, the full quote from Darwin, which IDer's love to quote mine is...

To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.

Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 77
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 1:19:32 PM
This just gets better and better.

Along with Stein's horrific quote mining throughout to twist and distort Darwin, we have some people who have done a good deal of homework on this film...

Check this site out:

http://www.expelledexposed.com/

The truth behind the fiction...especially the claims of the academics being fired...hilarious. A bunch of disgruntled losers, fired for legitimate academic reasons trying to use their own religious beliefs as a crutch to cry persecution when the simple truth was they were fired for incompetance or simply not hired due to lack of qualification.

Amazing site...dig in and enjoy and be prepared to see the horrendous BS behind Ben Stein's propaganda piece.

Mr. Stein, for shame. And for attempting to use the Shoah as a means to attack science and reason and associating natural selection with Nazism, you should be horsewhipped in public. Natural selection has nothing to do with social darwinism and artificial selection and eugenics. Darwin didn't support it, Dawkins certainly doesn't support it, neither does modern science as a whole and the attempt to tar modern scientific thought and evolutionary biology with that brush is beyond evil.

I now have to watch this film just to see if Stein actually had the lack of ethics to do this.

Oh by the way in case you were wondering who is the "documentary company" of journalists...behind this film:




Premise Media is a film production company based in British Columbia, Canada. According to its website, Premise Media “develops, finances, and produces independent films, books, and DVD’s [sic] for the domestic and international marketplace.” Its motto is “Producing world class media that stirs the heart and inspires the minds to truth, purpose, and hope.”

Premise Media’s top management consists of two men. A. Logan Craft is Chairman of the Board of Directors and a Presbyterian minister from Santa Fe, New Mexico. He also produced a television show called “Church and State TV.” Walt Ruloff is Premise Media’s CEO. Prior to joining Premise Media, Ruloff was a salesman and entrepreneur who founded the software company ILTS in 1991, later selling it to Microsoft. Craft and Ruloff also appear to be the source of much of the funding for Premise Media and for Expelled.

Additional staff listed on Premise Media’s website included several that are associated with Rampant Films, including Mark Mathis. Also of interest is Paul Lauer, who is listed as the “Grassroots Marketing Director.” Lauer is the founder of Motive Marketing, an entertainment marketing firm that specializes in promoting entertainment geared towards the faith and family markets. Motive Marketing was behind such grassroots marketing campaigns as Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, and Walden Media/Disney’s The Chronicles of Narnia. Lauer himself is described on the Motive Marketing website as “one of the most well connected entrepreneurs in the faith and family market.”

The connections between Premise Media and Motive Marketing, as well as the strong religious background of Craft, all point to a religiously motivated film. It is not surprising, then, to find that Expelled is not an unbiased documentary, but rather a movie with a clear religious agenda: to attack mainstream science, falsely presenting it as being anti-religious.

Of course, Premise Media has a free speech right to promote its views, religious or otherwise, and nobody is objecting to its exercise of that right. But its critics have a right to correct the record. And part of that record is the attempt to pass off to the public as a “documentary” a film that is clear propaganda.

So no possible bias there... *chuckle* and how are they marketing this "documentary"



Marketing with a Motive
Documentaries in general – even relative “blockbusters” like those of Michael Moore or Al Gore – reach a remarkably small proportion of the American public. The religious goals of the producers of Expelled will not be met if the movie appeals only to conservative Christians, the movie’s natural base. To make Expelled successful will require creating a “buzz” that will attract mainstream viewers.

Motive Marketing is an obvious choice for the grassroots marketing that is essential to the success of a movie like Expelled. This company was successful in applying viral marketing techniques to promote Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ and Walden Media/Disney’s The Chronicles of Narnia, and their skills (plus those of three other PR firms) are being employed to promote Expelled.

Giving the impression that people are flocking to see Expelled requires a big opening weekend, and the team at Motive Marketing is striving to inflate the number of tickets sold in three ways:

The Expelled Challenge
In the “Expelled Challenge,” the makers of Expelled offer to pay Christian schools by reimbursing them for their tickets based on how many students attend. On their website, described as a “site specifically designed for students, teachers, pastors, youth leaders and organizations to provide useful tools and resources to promote the ideas surrounding this highly anticipated film”, the following enticement appears:

“What is the Expelled Challenge?

To engage Christian schools and home school groups to get as many students, parents, and faculty from their school/group out to see Ben Stein’s new movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (opening in theaters April 2008).

Each school/home group that registers through the link below and submits their ticket stubs will be eligible for a donation as funds permit, but the school that submits the most ticket stubs will win a donation of $10,000!”

It remains to be seen how many schools have taken up the Expelled crew on their offer, or how many donations “funds permit”. However, offering to pay people to see their film seems to be, at best, a bad business model. It is, however, an excellent way to encourage a large turnout for the first weekend’s take.

Political screenings
Another way the producers of Expelled can increase that important opening weekend attendance is to stir up controversy over the film. Unfortunately, they have chosen to do so by exacerbating one of the most unfortunate trends in American society today: the politicization of education. There have been at least two private screenings for state legislatures that have anti-evolution bills on the docket. One was held to drum up support for Florida’s Senate Bill 2692: the so-called “Evolution Academic Freedom Act”, which aims to encourage the teaching of creationism by providing legal protection to educators who present “alternatives to evolution” (i.e., intelligent design and/or creation science ). Another screening was held in Missouri, where two similar bills, House Bills 2554 and 1315, aim to promote “academic freedom” and “protect intellectual diversity”; the latter bill was introduced by a legislator who previously introduced a bill that would have fired teachers who didn’t give equal time to intelligent design.

Though the showings were not as well-attended as the makers of Expelled might like you to believe, these events still illustrate Premise Media’s disturbing willingness to politicize science.

Planting Reviews
Another way to swell the first weekend’s gate is to hype the movie by salting reviews from friendly sources. Those who signed up for the Expelled newsletter updates began receiving promotional materials for the film in late March. Newsletters were peppered with stellar reviews from various conservative talk show hosts such as Rush Limbaugh and Michael Medved who resonate with conservative audiences. Medved, in addition, is a Senior Fellow at the intelligent design-promoting Discovery Institute, heralded in the film; it is unsurprising that he would be an Expelled enthusiast. These positive reviews from conservative pundits and similar friendly sources are useful in helping the marketing company reach the base of conservative Christians.

However, other positive reviews seem to be from actual movie critics. Ted Baehr of Movieguide says “Four stars!” For someone who has not heard of Movieguide, it may sound more legitimate and unbiased than conservative pundits like Limbaugh or Medved. However, a little research reveals that “Movieguide” is a misleadingly neutral title.

Movieguide is a “ministry dedicated to redeeming the values of the mass media according to biblical principles, by influencing entertainment industry executives and helping families make wise media choices” (according to their website). Such conservative evangelical reviewers will be sympathetic to Expelled’s religious message, and less likely to be familiar with the existing arguments against its distortions of science and history. To draw as many people to the movie theaters as possible, it makes sense for Motive Marketing to promote reviews of its film from such sites – and ignore negative reviews from mainstream movie critics (available here)

Of course, it is not unusual for a marketing company to promote a movie – that’s exactly what they’re hired for. And none of this promotion is illegal or necessarily unethical. But only time, not artificially inflated turnout statistics, will tell whether Expelled has the “legs” of successful documentaries such as those of Michael Moore – but we predict that it will have a several-year career in church basements.
 INDYDUDE

Joined: 10/23/2007
Msg: 78
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 2:19:37 PM
It's a wonderful movie. Go see it. It's a breath of fresh air from all the atheist evolution nonsense. How many movies have you seen that actually cause the audience to break into applause?
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 79
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 2:30:37 PM


How many movies have you seen that actually cause the audience to break into applause?


Star Wars...the first time back in 1977. Half a dozen others... is that a criterion for academic truth?

Pillock.
 clarence clutterbuck

Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 80
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 2:32:33 PM
Don't the organised school trips to see the movie contravene court rulings on the teaching of ID in schools? Unless that is, teachers will be emphasising the comedic implications..
 TheLimey

Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 81
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:35:23 PM
How many movies have you seen that actually cause the audience to break into applause?

Star Wars
Jaws*
Rocky Horror etc etc...



*ok, I admit it wasn't actually applause during Jaws, It was cheering & screaming when the shark finally appeared.

& given the absolute drubbing that Steins movie has received I would strongly suggest that anyone who falls for this crap, or even thinks the same way, needs to go back to 1st Grade & start over..
 Stinker*Belle

Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 82
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:42:16 PM

Star Wars...the first time back in 1977. Half a dozen others... is that a criterion for academic truth?

Pillock.

, absolutely love it!!

And E.T. lots of people actually clapped and cheered and got out of their seat when i went to see that when i was little!
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 83
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 4:00:31 PM


How many movies have you seen that actually cause the audience to break into applause?
Star Wars...the first time back in 1977. Half a dozen others... is that a criterion for academic truth?
Yes. It shows that the showing of an audience's appreciation for a film has nothing to do with its truth, but to do with its entertainment value, and nothing else. You might as well say that The Origin of the Species became a best-seller overnight because it had a great story, but didn't show that it was true at all.

More importantly, it shows us that we cannot trust anything just because millions of people believe it, only that it is a good story and the director of the movie and the author of the book are good storytellers. Great. All we know about Darwin is that he's a good story-teller. Way to go.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 84
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 4:11:11 PM


More importantly, it shows us that we cannot trust anything just because millions of people believe it, only that it is a good story and the director of the movie and the author of the book are good storytellers. Great. All we know about Darwin is that he's a good story-teller. Way to go.


I really hope you are taking the p*ss here...no I really can't tell. That analogy is stretched thinner than a ham slice on an old British Rail sandwich.

Further, as someone who usually gives the impression of espousing logic and reason while still embracing his belief, I cannot understand how you can feel glib about responding with anything but scorn for a propaganda piece of such nature as this one that puts evolutionary biology on notice as being responsible for the Holocaust.

Care to explain?
 chelloveck

Joined: 6/2/2007
Msg: 85
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 4:28:08 PM

More importantly, it shows us that we cannot trust anything just because millions of people believe it, only that it is a good story and the director of the movie and the author of the book are good storytellers. Great. All we know about Darwin is that he's a good story-teller. Way to go.


That argument would seem to also cut the legs from under a belief in the Abrahamic religions also, based on the idea that the books that underpin those religions can't be trusted merely because millions of people believe in them. After all, said books are good stories, and the authors of said books are good story tellers.
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 86
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 5:05:45 PM
RE msg 84 by themadfiddler:
Further, as someone who usually gives the impression of espousing logic and reason while still embracing his belief, I cannot understand how you can feel glib about responding with anything but scorn for a propaganda piece of such nature as this one that puts evolutionary biology on notice as being responsible for the Holocaust.

Care to explain?
I have yet to see the film. I also suggest that you read my reply to chelloveck before replying.

However, it was quite a shock to me when I discovered that Hitler got the idea for his concept of extermination of the Jews from the Americans who sterilised many poor Americans and many disable Americans in the 20s and 30s, under the basis of the theory of Eugenics, that they could "weed out" the poor and the disabled, because both were the results of bad genetics. It is fairly reasonable to understand that this idea got a serious consideration because of the idea that we all "evolved" from simpler species, and that all of our traits were due to genetics and to genes. However, it really does explain Hitler's policies quite a bit, because I've been to quite a few museum pieces on the Holocaust, and one thing that always stood out was that even though Hitler exterminated Jews en masse, first by shooting large groups and burying them in large pits, and only later building the death camps, he authorised biological experiments on the Jews, which were carried out under the orders of a Dr Mengele. Mengele had Jews frozen until they developed frostbite, and counted how many hours it took for their toes to fall off. He did all sorts of live examinations. He did scientific experiments that we would consider so sick, that even serial killers are never reported to do these things. It never made any sense to me to want to commit genocide and yet also do science. But if Hitler truly believed that he was following the ideas of Eugenics first shown to him by the American scientists, then it makes a great deal of sense why he would continue with scientific experiments, because to him, the Jews were vermin, like rats, and he was just following the principles of science, that of promoting good health by extermination of vermin, and that of scientific exploration by selecting a few rats and doing lab experiments on them, so that we can learn from them, to help our fellow man. So the Jews of the death camps were the rats that were exterminated for health reasons, and the Jews experimented on by Dr Mengele and his underlings were the "lab rats".

Now, I think that blaming ALL of evolutionary biology as being the cause of the Holocaust is quite extreme, just like I would consider blaming Bohr's model of the atom, Mendeleyev's Periodic Table and Einstein's Energy Equation, for Chernobyl, Sellafield, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. But I would definitely consider that they had an effect, because Einstein said that if he knew what would his ideas would be used for, he would have never published them and become a watchmaker. If Einstein considered that even the indirect effects of his work laid responsibility at his feet, then it seems the same would be true of Darwin and Mendel's work. It occured to me that it is the responsibility of the scientist to realise that his work may later on be used for nefarious purposes, and to therefore consider how to provide safeguards into his work BEFORE publication, rather than just publishing and letting others provide the safeguards later on in the process of trial and error, causing needless innocent deaths, just because it would be easier, and because you could get your idea out there quicker and start making money and fame off it sooner.

IMO, the responsible scientist is an atheist in Sartre's vision, who takes total responsibility for everything he does and everything he causes, and puts that responsibility first. As "Gray's Anatomy", the programme about surgeons, keeps on saying, the FIRST rule of science is "FIRST DO NO HARM". It seems to be the opinion of scientific thought that the wise person publishes only a few ideas that are all non-harmful, than the person who publishes many ideas of which some are harmful and some are not, because the odds are against us not harming, so, of the ideas that are not considered if they are harmful or not, the majority will be harmful. Science MUST be cautious in publication of new ideas.

How, then, are we to expand science, if we limit it so? We are not restricted in developing theories that exist, and refining them so they are safe and without harm. Maybe we ought to work on the ideas we ALREADY have out there, to make them safe, BEFORE we start looking for new ones.

RE msg 85 by chelloveck:
That argument would seem to also cut the legs from under a belief in the Abrahamic religions also, based on the idea that the books that underpin those religions can't be trusted merely because millions of people believe in them. After all, said books are good stories, and the authors of said books are good story tellers.
I cannot agree with you more on this. After all, if you were to look at any one religion, especially non-Abrahamic religions, one finds millions of believers. If we just went on how many people believe ideas, we would all be Buddhists, or Hindus, or Shintoists. If we went back in time, we would all be followers of Isis and Osiris.

I don't believe in the Bible just because someone else believes in it. I believe in the Bible because I know certain people who believe in it, and sceptical does not even begin to describe how little these people trust in new ideas. They argue about the Sun, the Moon, even if the grass is green. They wouldn't believe in the Bible without a damn good reason, and even then, I've checked into that reasoning, and scrutinised it highly. But even then, I don't expect you to take my word for it. If you did, I'd call you a fool, for trusting me without checking it out yourself.

So I would agree that ignorant and lazy people, who never bother to check out WHY they should believe in the Bible don't really have a reason to believe in it, but there are many people, whether they are university educated or not, who did make the effort, and who believe in the Bible BECAUSE of their investigations.

That means that the Bible could easily be true. Just that there are a lot of lazy people out there, of both Bible-believers and non-believers equally well. As the Kotsker Rebbe used to say:
I'd rather know a wicked person who KNOWS he's a wicked person, than a righteous person who THINKS he's a righteous person.
Sceptical effort is more valuable than a lazy faith.
 saintgasoline

Joined: 8/3/2007
Msg: 87
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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 6:53:56 PM

Lacking one detail? If the dog was not capable of jumping out of its own way yesterday but today leaps over counters in a single bound, then it is more then one little detail.


And this is exactly the same sort of mistake Dembski makes, which is why his criterion of "specified complexity" is a bunch of foolish nonsense. In my example, we propose a theory that our dog managed to somehow eat the cake that was on the counter. The evidence for this is numerous. There is dog fur in the leftover crumbs. Icing is caked on the dog's muzzle. The dog's chocolate footprints are all over the floor near where the cake was placed. If you analyze the stool, you find further evidence that the dog ate cake.

Now, to deny that the dog ate the cake because you personally can't conceive how the dog got on the table is--to put it bluntly--idiotic in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Perhaps the theory doesn't explain yet whether the dog jumped straight up to the counter with a rush of adrenaline, or possibly used a nearby chair, or maybe even knocked it off the counter somehow. The fact that this is not explained does nothing to the evidence that shows that the dog nevertheless at the cake.

With evolution, it's exactly the same. We have all kinds of evidence, coming from several different lines of inquiry, that all point explicitly to the predictions made by evolution. The fact that scientists lack an explanation for every process does not invalidate the theory. It only shows that humans aren't omnipotent. I'd also like to point out that pointing out areas that scientists haven't currently explained does NOT mean it will never be explained through evolution, and certainly such an argument from ignorance is not SUPPORT for a rival theory!

What Dembski does with evolution is to claim most things are "too complex" to have evolved, because they show "specified complexity"--using our example, this amounts to covering one's ears and shouting "But it's impossible for the dog to get on the counter! The dog didn't eat the cake!" Naturally, all the evidence implies otherwise, and hence Dembski's mistake is to build mathematical models that try to prove something impossible, when we already know it IS possible, and in fact have enough evidence to know it has actually happened!


The evolutionist says it changed all by itself.....by magic, whereas an ID'er looks for an external agency that brought about the change.


You've got this so backwards, it's not even funny! Scientists don't claim life changed "by magic". They propose a testable, observable mechanism called natural selection, combined with random mutations caused by copying errors, radiation bombardment, and so on. In fact, ID's position is more compatible with "magic", because IDers cannot explain HOW the designer supposedly made things this way, or WHY (while evolution is doing this constantly, and this is why there is much more research involved in evolution--it tells how, through mutations and selection pressures, and so on). The ID position is also untestable, just as a claim that "It happened by magic!" would be. Either claim would cohere with any possible set of observations, and hence it is not testable.
 themadfiddler

Joined: 10/16/2006
Msg: 88
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Posted: 4/24/2008 7:01:53 PM


Now, I think that blaming ALL of evolutionary biology as being the cause of the Holocaust is quite extreme, just like I would consider blaming Bohr's model of the atom, Mendeleyev's Periodic Table and Einstein's Energy Equation, for Chernobyl, Sellafield, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. But I would definitely consider that they had an effect, because Einstein said that if he knew what would his ideas would be used for, he would have never published them and become a watchmaker.


I understand where you are coming from. Oppenheimer understood when the bomb went off, and likely did before hand what his work meant. That being said, the Bible itself does say each man's sin is his own, or to paraphrase, the father shall not eat sour grapes and the son's teeth set on edge. And in this case, Stein's fault lies in the outright deception, quote mining, fraud and sleight of hand he is committing on his audience.

I think Dawkins handles the issue with a good deal of courtesy when a friend of his, Michael Shermer , was sent essentially some hate mail (referencing a past article that Shermer had written debunking the Holocaust deniers) by a descendant of Holocaust survivors:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2488,Open-Letter-to-a-victim-of-Ben-Steins-lying-propaganda,Richard-Dawkins




Now I truly understand who you atheists and darwinists really are! You people believe that it was okay for my great-grandparents to die in the Holocaust! How disgusting. Your past article about the Holocaust was just window dressing. We Jews will fight to keep people like you out of the United States!


Shermer wrote to Mr J to ask if he had by any chance just seen Expelled, and he received this reply:


Yes I have. You know, I respect you as a human being and you have done great work exposing psychics and frauds, but this is a very touchy issue that affects me and family emotionally. Our family business was affected because of Auschwitz because now, our family has nothing. It is gone. Things began to make sense once I saw the movie and I am just appalled. I have learned a lot from Ben Stein, a Jewish brother, who has opened my eyes up a bit.


It seemed to me that Ben Stein and his lying crew were more to blame than Mr J himself for his revolting letter. I therefore decided to write him a personal letter and try to explain a few things to him. It then occurred to me (indeed, Michael Shermer suggested as much) that there are probably many others like him, whose minds have been twisted in this evil way by the man Stein, and that it would be a good idea to publish the letter. I decided to wait 24 hours to see if he would reply, although I didn't expect him to. I am now publishing my letter to him, exactly as I sent it to him except that I have removed his name.

Richard

Dear Mr J

Michael Shermer forwarded me a letter from you which suggests that you have unfortunately been taken in by Ben Stein's mendacious and/or ignorant suggestion that Darwin is somehow to blame for Hitler. I hope you will not mind if I write to you and try to undo this grievous error.

1. I deeply sympathize with you for the loss of your relatives in the Holocaust. Nevertheless, I don't think that could really be said to justify the tone of your letter to Michael Shermer, who is a kind and decent man, as even you seemed to concede in your second letter to him, and the very antithesis of a Nazi sympathizer.

Just look at those words of yours. Probably you regret them by now. I certainly hope so, but I'll continue to write my letter to you, on the assumption that you still feel at least a part of what you wrote.

2. Hitler's horrible opinions were not all that unusual for his time, not just in Germany but throughout Europe, including my own country of Britain, by the way. What singled Hitler out was the fact that he somehow managed to come to power in one of Europe's leading nations, which was also one of the world's most technologically advanced nations. Hitler had a lot of support in Germany. His horrible bidding was done by millions of ordinary German footsoldiers, and the great majority of them were Christians. Many were Lutheran, and many (like Hitler himself) were Roman Catholic. Very few were atheists, and whatever else Hitler was he most certainly was not an atheist. It is sometimes said that Hitler only pretended to be Catholic, in order to win the Church's support for his regime. In this he was very largely successful. So, whether or not Hitler was himself a true Catholic (as he often claimed) the Church bears a heavy responsibility for what happened. And Hitler himself used religion to justify his anti-Semitism. For example, here is a typical quotation, from the end of Chapter 2 of Mein Kampf.


Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Hitler's obscene anti-Semitism was able to hold sway in Germany because there was a deeply embedded history of anti-Semitism in Germany, and indeed in Europe generally.

3. Going further back in history, where do we think the toxic anti-Semitism of Hitler, and of the many Germans whose support gave him power, came from? You can't seriously think it came from Darwin. Anti-Semitism has been rife in Europe for many many centuries, positively encouraged by most Christian churches, including especially the two that dominate Germany. The Roman Catholic Church has notoriously persecuted Jews as "Christ-killers". While, as for the Lutherans, Martin Luther himself wrote a book called On the Jews and their Lies from which Hitler quoted. And Luther publicly said that "All Jews should be driven from Germany." By the way, do you hear an echo of those words in your own letter to Michael Shermer, "We Jews will fight to keep people like you out of the United States." Don't you feel just a twinge of shame at those truly horrible words of yours? Don't you feel that, as a Jew, you should feel especially regretful that you used those words?

4. Now, to the matter of Darwin. The first thing to say is that natural selection is a scientific theory about the way evolution works in fact. It is either true or it is not, and whether or not we like it politically or morally is irrelevant. Scientific theories are not prescriptions for how we should behave. I have many times written (for example in the first chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) that I am a passionate Darwinian when it comes to the science of how life has actually evolved, but a passionate ANTI-Darwinian when it comes to the politics of how humans ought to behave. I have several times said that a society based on Darwinian principles would be a very unpleasant society in which to live. I have several times said, starting at the beginning of my very first book, The Selfish Gene, that we should learn to understand natural selection, so that we can oppose any tendency to apply it to human politics. Darwin himself said the same thing, in various different ways. So did his great friend and champion Thomas Henry Huxley.

5. Darwinism gives NO support to racism of any kind. Quite the contrary. It is emphatically NOT about natural selection between races. It is about natural selection between individuals. It is true that the subtitle of The Origin of Species is "Or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life" but Darwin was using the word "race" in a very different sense from ours. It is totaly clear, if you read past the title to the book itself, that a "favoured race" meant something like 'that set of individuals who possess a certain favoured genetic mutation" (although Darwin would not have used that language because he did not have our modern concept of a genetic mutation).

6. There is no mention of Darwin in Mein Kampf. Not one single, solitary mention, not one mention in any of the 27 chapters of this long and tedious book. Don't you think that, if Hitler was truly influenced by Darwin, he would have given him at least one teeny weeny mention in his book? Was he, perhaps, INDIRECTLY influenced by some of Darwin's ideas, without knowing it? Only if you completely misunderstand Darwin's ideas, as some have definitely done: the so-called Social Darwinists such as Herbert Spencer and John D Rockefeller. Hitler could fairly be described as a Social Darwinist, but all modern evolutionists, almost literally without exception, have been vocal in their condemnation of Social Darwinism. This of course includes Michael Shermer and me and PZ Myers and all the other evolutionary scientists whom Ben Stein and his team tricked into taking part in his film by lying to us about their true intentions.

7. Hitler did attempt eugenic breeding of humans, and this is sometimes misrepresented as an attempt to apply Darwinian principles to humans. But this interpretation gets it historically backwards, as PZ Myers has pointed out. Darwin's great achievement was to look at the familiar practice of domestic livestock breeding by artificial selection, and realise that the same principle might apply in NATURE, thereby explaining the evolution of the whole of life: "natural selection", the "survival of the fittest". Hitler didn't apply NATURAL selection to humans. He was probably even more ignorant of natural selection than Ben Stein evidiently is. Hitler tried to apply ARTIFICIAL selection to humans, and there is nothing specifically Darwinian about artificial selection. It has been familiar to farmers, gardeners, horse trainers, dog breeders, pigeon fanciers and many others for centuries, even millennia. Everybody knew about artificial selection, and Hitler was no exception. What was unique about Darwin was his idea of NATURAL selection; and Hitler's eugenic policies had nothing to do with natural selection.

8. Mr J, you have been cruelly duped by Ben Stein and his unscrupulous colleagues. It is a wicked, evil thing they have done to you, and potentially to many others. I do not know whether they knowingly and wantonly perpetrated the falsehood that fooled you. Perhaps they genuinely and sincerely believed it, although other actions by them, which you can read about all over the Internet, persuade me that they are fully capable of deliberate and calculated deception. You are perhaps not to be blamed for swallowing the film's falsehoods, because you probably assumed that nobody would have the gall to make a whole film like that without checking their facts first. Perhaps even you will need a little more convincing that they were wrong, in which case I urge you to read it up and study the matter in detail -- something that Ben Stein and his crew manifestly and lamentably failed to do.

With my good wishes, and sympathy for the losses your family suffered in the Holocaust.

Yours sincerely

Richard Dawkins
 saintgasoline

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Posted: 4/24/2008 7:04:57 PM

However, it was quite a shock to me when I discovered that Hitler got the idea for his concept of extermination of the Jews from the Americans who sterilised many poor Americans and many disable Americans in the 20s and 30s, under the basis of the theory of Eugenics, that they could "weed out" the poor and the disabled, because both were the results of bad genetics.


Hitler didn't necessarily get his idea to "weed out" the jews from eugenics. For many centuries previous to the discovery of genetics and even evolution, jews had been reviled, and Hitler was far from the first to want to rid the world of them. What he did is took an existing, historic prejudice against jews, and a desire to rid the world of them, and then combine this nonsense with pseudo-science of the time.

Now, let's get to the meat of the argument? Does evolution actually support a program like the holocaust? No. Anyone who understands evolution knows that there is no such thing as objectively "good" or "bad" genes--there are only different genes, suited for different environments and situations. Furthermore, "weeding out" genes and stifling the genetic diversity of our species, as Hitler intended, would be totally counterproductive for evolutionary survival. The best way to get by with evolution is to keep a huge diversity, so that we can have many different forms prepared to meet new challenges and changes in the environment. So, in short, a proper understanding of evolution does NOT lead to eugenics, social darwinism, or genocide. Rather, it is the total misunderstanding of the basic science behind it at all that leads to this, and movies like Expelled, that work so hard to undermine people's understanding of basic science and the scientific method, are only paving the way for future abuses of just this sort.

The argument is just plain stupid. Scientific theories are not supposed to be prescriptive, but descriptive. That is, if a scientific law says everything tends toward entropy, that doesn't mean that you ought to go out smashing things and destroying everything just because that's a descriptive fact about our universe. (Is this really that hard to grasp?) So even if evolution does show that species evolve through death, destruction, and so on, this doesn't mean that we should go out killing and destroying (and in fact evolution tells us we should do just the opposite if we want to survive, by preserving diversity).

Lastly, the argument is irrelevant. Even if evolution did cause people to rape children and become genocidal maniacs, that would hardly show that it is false. Pointing to the destruction wrought by atom bombs, in a similar manner, does not refute atomic theory.
 rockondon

Joined: 2/21/2007
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Posted: 4/24/2008 11:10:47 PM
scorpiomover
However, it was quite a shock to me when I discovered that Hitler got the idea for his concept of extermination of the Jews from the Americans who sterilised many poor Americans and many disable Americans in the 20s and 30s, under the basis of the theory of Eugenics, that they could "weed out" the poor and the disabled, because both were the results of bad genetics.

Lets blame Darwin for something that had nothing to do with him. After we're done, we can blame the inventor of the ballpeen hammer for people that were killed during violent crimes involving a ballpe...er...a baseball bat. Because that's logical.

However, it really does explain Hitler's policies quite a bit...

Of course it does. If someone does something horrible, and it has nothing to do with evolution or Darwin, then you lay the blame on evolution and Darwin...because you don't like them. Darwin is an interesting choice for your ire - the Nazi party supported Christianity and condemned Darwinism, and in 1935, Die Bücherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, published a list of guidelines of works to reject, including:
Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel). (Die Bücherei 1935, 279).

Lets look at what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf:

"The task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty, seems a truly high mission (Hitler 1943, 398).


The undermining of the existence of human culture by the destruction of its bearer seems in the eyes of a folkish philosophy the most execrable crime. Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. (Hitler 1943, 383)


What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, . . . so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. (Hitler 1943, 214)


Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord (Hitler 1943, 65).


But where do you place the blame for Hitler's actions....its Darwin's fault...because you don't like him.

I'm sure your jewish ancestors would love to see you and Stein using their suffering and deaths to peddle your lies.
 CharlesEdm

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Posted: 4/24/2008 11:29:12 PM

It's a wonderful movie. Go see it. It's a breath of fresh air from all the atheist evolution nonsense.


he he he DAMNED EDUCATION!


How many movies have you seen that actually cause the audience to break into applause?


Farenheit 9/11.
 Bluesman2008

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Posted: 4/25/2008 3:22:56 AM

No, I believe the scientific term for Stein's affliction is "cognitive dissonance." "Jack shit" is just a word we use to mock his ignorance. And yes, spreading lies and ****ing with the education of future generations is worthy of this kind of contempt.


LOL...Amen brother. How did critical thinking ever pass them by. I guess they didn't get the email. Even the Kansas City school district fought and won the right to keep that rubbish out of the public curriculum. But be warned, these people will NEVER stop trying. They've said as much. Their tenacity speaks volumes of their fundamental god obsession and never being satisfied until every last man, woman and child drinks their coolaid.
 E.Kyro

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Posted: 4/25/2008 4:40:06 AM

Posted by saintgasoline
Now, to deny that the dog ate the cake because you personally can't conceive how the dog got on the table is--to put it bluntly--idiotic in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Perhaps the theory doesn't explain yet whether the dog jumped straight up to the counter with a rush of adrenaline, or possibly used a nearby chair, or maybe even knocked it off the counter somehow. The fact that this is not explained does nothing to the evidence that shows that the dog nevertheless at the cake.

Sticking with your analogy here, the ID'ers don't deny that the dog ate the cake. As you say it is obvious it did, however they bring a potential fourth alternative to the table as to how the dog may have had the ability to reach the cake. By your own admission, you're not sure how the dog was able to, so to reject another alternative seems silly, close-minded and ultimately unscientific. If the dog was on trial in a court of law, the possibility that he had an accomplice would be a legitimate line of investigation which if it wasn't followed up on, the prosecutor would likely be fired for.
Even if in the majority of cases it is determined that no accomplice or mastermind was involved, they don't automatically assume that it never is. In fact there have been convictions in spite of the fact that the accomplice was never identified or apprehended but known to have been involved because there was no other plausable method for the "crime" to have been committed.

In any other field other then the mainstream biological sciences, the norm is to leave "no stone unturned" during investigations. That evolutionists fight so hard to not investigate the ID position and in fact criticize and condemn those that do, leaves some of us to think that they are either afraid to do so, or have something to hide.
 Bluesman2008

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Posted: 4/25/2008 5:45:29 AM

More importantly, it shows us that we cannot trust anything just because millions of people believe it, only that it is a good story and the director of the movie and the author of the book are good storytellers. Great. All we know about Darwin is that he's a good story-teller. Way to go.


And that would apply to the bible as well, no? Hellova story there too. I particularly like the burning bush, parting of the waters, whew. Pretty heavy stuff and, of course, all true right? Hmmmm of course because the bible says so.

Reminds me of when I was a kid growing up with thousands of questions about everything. I got the same response from my father every time - "Why? Because I said so". That wasn't good enough for me then and it sure isn't now.
 AncientMuse

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Posted: 4/25/2008 8:59:14 AM
It's pretty damned obvious where Hitlers hatred of the Jews stems from. His christian faith.....'the jews killed jesus christ'.

All one has to do is read Mein Kempf.

Some fine examples of christian hatred toward Jews and attempts at wiping them out as a race/bloodline and/or sheer hatred : German Crusade of 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, the expulsion from Portugal in 1497. And obviously, Hitler's holocaust.

There are anti-semitists today for the exact same reason. Christian faith's idea that 'the jews killed jesus christ our saviour'. I have crossed paths with actual 'Hilter Youth' and those exact same hatreds and stereotyping are still alive and well today. And yet they ironically consider themselves loving christians and 'god fearing'. It's horrifying.

Hitler utilized the knowledge of eugenics to try and completely wipe out the bloodline of Jews. He used every and any thing he could muster up in order to accomplish his mission. Darwinism or whatever the hell you want to call it was the effect, not the cause.

To deny this or to try and twist it in a different direction is to blatantly lie. For shame. You not only dishonor those who suffered under his regime, you also excuse Hitler's disgustingly sick and twisted mind.

I am thoroughly appalled with some of the posts in this thread.

 INDYDUDE

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Posted: 4/25/2008 2:16:07 PM
That's a load of crap ancientmuse. There are documentaries that show Hitler persecuted Christians and closed their churches everywhere he could.
 E.Kyro

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Posted: 4/25/2008 3:19:24 PM
Ben Stein isn't the first to mention the Hitler-Darwin connection. There have been quite few good biographies stretching back 60 years that have verified it.

In her 1951 work, The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote: “Underlying the Nazis’ belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin’s idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human being.”

The standard biographies of Hitler almost all point to the influence of Darwinism on their subject. In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: “The basis of Hitler’s political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.” What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of Darwin’s theory: “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.”

John Toland’s Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography says this of Hitler’s Second Book published in 1928: “An essential of Hitler’s conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right.”

In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that “crude social-Darwinism” gave Hitler “his entire political ‘world-view.’ ” Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. This view called “social Darwinism” is a logical extension of Darwinian evolutionary theory and was articulated by Darwin himself.

In Richard Weikart's, From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany, Weikart concludes that Darwinism played a key role not only in the rise of eugenics, but also in euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination, all ultimately embraced by the Nazis. He convincingly makes the disturbing argument that Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles rather than nihilistic ones.
http://web.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Weikart/FromDarwintoHitler.htm

Hitler used a lot of Darwinian terms both in his books, especially "Zweites Buch", in speeches but especially in communication with commanding officers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
It is estimated that over 200,000 Germans were killed in Hitler's attempt to create a racially pure line free of defects based on Darwin's book:


<div class="quote">“Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.”

Ben Stein simply was basing his views on well documented information about Hitler, which was obviously unknown to quite a few of the posters here, in spite of WWII documentaries in past also having mentioned it.
 saintgasoline

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Posted: 4/25/2008 3:48:22 PM

Sticking with your analogy here, the ID'ers don't deny that the dog ate the cake.


No. You clearly don't understand my analogy. In the analogy, a wide array of evidence supports the fact that the dog ate the cake. Skeptics of the theory point to a currently unexplained aspect (how did the dog get on the counter?) and say that invalidates the theory.

How is that compatible with evolution? Well, evolution is supported by a wide array of evidence. Skeptics of evolution point to currently unexplained aspects and say these invalidate evolution, almost as if they had forgotten all that other evidence.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Let me briefly lay out what that is. Now, if evolution were true, we'd expect organisms to share similarities with close ancestors. Lo and behold, we find that many creatures share similarities that indicate an evolutionary relationship. This is strengthened by the fact that these similarities also often directly point to the past relationship. For instance, the hip bones, lungs, embryonic teeth, and so on in baleen whales indicate that the organism evolved from a land mammal. This explains the similarities, and also explains why an aquatic creature would have features that seem more suited for land-dwelling, like air-breathing lungs, vestigial hip and leg bones, and so on.

What is another prediction? Well, not only should creatures have similarities, but the fossil record should show that they arise and go extinct in an evolutionary pattern. If, for instance, A shares similarities with B, and B with C, then we'd expect the fossils to show that A appeared first, followed by B, and then by C. This is exactly what we find, on every level of the biological heirarchy. You can see it from species to species, phylum to phylum, and so on. On just one level, for instance, evolution predicts that single-celled organisms would be first, fish next, amphibians next, then reptiles, then mammals. The fossil record bears this out. If they had been created, they could have arisen in any order, but the fact that they come about in an explicitly evolutionary order is pretty big support for evolution.

Perhaps one of the most amazing fulfilled predictions is the independent lines of evidence from genetic studies that fall right in line with this. Darwin knew nothing of genetics, and it was only in its infancy during the time he lived. Nowadays, we can map out the whole genome of creatures, and what we find is that the genetic similarities perfectly match the evolutionary timeline of descent. We see that proposed ancestors share more genes with their descendants, and so on. As a good example, take the evidence that confirms we share an ancestor with chimpanzees: we have 23 chromosomes, but they have 24. But when you actually look at them in detail, scientists see that our human chromosome number 2 appears to be a fusion of two different ape chromosomes, which explains why we have one less--two were combined into one. This is the kind of detailed prediction you get confirming evolution that you could not possibly get for ID.

Other lines of evidence that I won't go into detail about: geographical distribution (obviously ancestors and descendants must have had access to the same continents, and evolution confirms this, and even accounts for the discovery that the continents were once joined together), experimentally-induced speciation events, transitional fossils, etc.

Now, all this sort of evidence is equivalent to finding dog hair in the cake, icing on the dog's mouth, evidence of cake in the dog's feces, and chocolate paw prints near the cake crumbs in the theory of a dog eating a cake. To deny this evidence and say the dog DIDN'T eat the cake because one aspect isn't currently explained (and to deny the evidence of evolution because, say, there isn't a currently accepted answer as to how sex evolved, for instance) is ludicrous. It is ludicrous for two reasons: one, it is an argument from ignorance, and there is no way to know that this fact won't one day be explained in terms of the prevailing theory (and, as history shows us, creationist claims have long been whittled down and explained, forcing them to scramble for new ones--see Behe and his claims about the blood clotting cascade or the flagellum at the Dover trial for an example of this); and two, such an appeal does not establish that the existing evidence in support of the theory is no longer applicable.


By your own admission, you're not sure how the dog was able to, so to reject another alternative seems silly, close-minded and ultimately unscientific.


This analogy does not apply. We could actually test a claim if someone said the dog didn't eat the cake or ate the cake in some other way. A better analogy would be someone claiming that unobservable metaphysical gremlins actually ate the cake. In that instance, it would be quite reasonable to reject the hypothesis, because such a hypothesis makes no testable predictions and hence isn't even scientific.

ID is like the gremlin claim because it doesn't make testable predictions. It consists solely of attempted criticisms of evolution, which are not evidence or predictions of ID, but instead attempted falsifications of evolution. Essentially, this tactic just further shows that it is evolution that is being tested by creationists (even if they are often lying or misunderstanding it in the process). They haven't produced any evidence for design that is scientific in nature.

I've already shown you why your "predictions" for ID don't work. If you insist that ID is scientific, then please give me some actual predictions, or some avenue of research that could establish ID. And do so without making arguments from ignorance based on "If evolution is wrong, then ID is right." That's not how science works. For instance, if the theory of relativity were shown to be wrong, that wouldn't tell us anything about what correctly explains the motion of the planets and gravity.
 saintgasoline

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Posted: 4/25/2008 4:00:15 PM

The standard biographies of Hitler almost all point to the influence of Darwinism...


No, they don't. They point to the influence of social Darwinism, which has no basis in science. The theory of evolution is not social Darwinism. Social Darwinism is just as unscientific and stupid as creationism. I think the problem is that creationists use the word "Darwinism" to refer to evolution, and this in turn makes them think it is the same thing as social Darwinism, which it isn't. It is also ironic because Darwin himself was not a social Darwinist.

For instance, if legitimate mathematicians believe that 2 and 2 make 4, but then a bunch of idiots went out and claimed that anything that doesn't have four sides must be burned at the stake and destroyed, and called their little belief "Social mathematics", that would not invalidate the fact that 2 and 2 nevertheless add up to 4.


This view called “social Darwinism” is a logical extension of Darwinian evolutionary theory and was articulated by Darwin himself.


Wrong on all counts. Evolution is a descriptive theory, as all scientific theories are. It doesn't prescribe any sort of action we ought to take. In other words, scientific theories are not ethical models; they are not prescriptive theories. For instance, the theory of gravity tells us that bodies tend to attract each other, but that doesn't mean that everyone should run full speed into other people as they are walking on the street, or drive their cars into trees and pedestrians. (And only a complete idiot would argue that this is a "logical extension" of the theory of gravity.)

Furthermore, even if we were going to act according to evolutionary principles the closest "logical extension" of the theory would imply that we should PRESERVE diversity rather than eliminate it. Eugenics attempts to rid the gene pool of genes, ultimately depriving it of diversity, but the theory of evolution makes it clear that those species with greater genetic diversity tend to survive better, so a program like the holocaust would actually be harmful to our species by eliminating diversity. The whole reason sex evolved, you see, was to create diversity. That's just how important it is.

So, not only is a prescriptive ethical code of conduct not a legitimate inference from a descriptive scientific theory, it is also clear that, should we treat evolution like an ethical theory, it actually implies that we should save as many people as possible, rather than mindlessly kill them off and render our species so genetically homogenous as to be comprised solely of blonde, blue-eyed germans!
 AncientMuse

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Posted: 4/25/2008 4:05:28 PM

That's a load of crap ancientmuse. There are documentaries that show Hitler persecuted Christians and closed their churches everywhere he could.


Yes, your absolutely right indydude. And Mein Kempf doesn't count because it's HIS OWN ACTUAL WORDS WRITTEN BY HIS TRULY.

We can't be going off of words right from the horse's mouth. That would just be stupid on our part. Documentaries made by other people are far closer to the truth, afterall they would know Hitler better than he knew himself, right ?

Are you not aware that Hitler's crusade started with his hatred towards the Jews and slowly evolved to his hatred of anyone (no matter what their background) who wasn't in the possession of blue eyes and blond hair because he believed them to be genetic mutts ? (ie: most likely has some 'unclean' blood flowing through their veins like the dark haired, brown eyed Jews for example) ? A psychotic mind tends to do that.



The blind leading the deaf.... how priceless.

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