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 Author Thread: When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
 beautifuldancer400

Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 151
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 5:08:59 PM

So as somebody said above ... take her home. Make sure she DOESN'T get raped and ask her out again sometime.


WHY would you take her home??? If I were a man I'd be afraid to even be seen with her according to what you said.

I've never been a fan of the "date rape" thing. I'm sure it happens a lot but it just is too easy for someone who feels heartbroken to get revenge. There really should be more proof of violence required before people can be charged with rape.
 Ravenstar66

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 152
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 5:13:14 PM
Whoa...

hold the phone..so if someone gets raped that's not enough, they have to be brutalized and beaten also?

Should they fight back and have to show 'defense' wounds? It's hard enough for a rape victim to get a conviction, this would set them back a century.

that is just messed up... good grief. engage the brain before putting the mouth in gear.
 ScruffyDude

Joined: 1/14/2007
Msg: 153
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 5:19:08 PM
"Take me home and f*** me."


and thats when you acted like a gentleman and respected her coherent decision making and drove her home right??? wow so so classy how predator-ish of you
just another pathetic male that can't cut it in the real world that has to stoop to lurking for drunk women like a vulture in a bar?
 Willsniffurundies

Joined: 4/7/2008
Msg: 154
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 5:20:31 PM
Again, what we need here is lawyer from America and from Canada. . .maybe other countries,too. There are a lot of people telling us what the law is and NONE of them are listed as convicts, law officers or attornies.
 Ravenstar66

Joined: 8/27/2007
Msg: 155
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 6:35:21 PM

DEFINITION

The Criminal Code of Canada definition of Assault:
A person commits an assault when:

without the consent of another person, a person applies force intentionally to another person, directly or indirectly;

a person attempts or threatens, by act or gesture, to apply force to another person, if a person has present ability to effect their purpose; or causes that other person to believe, upon reasonable grounds, that they have present ability to effect their purpose;

while openly wearing or carrying a weapon or an imitation thereof, a person accosts or impedes another person or begs.

The definition of Assault is used to define Sexual Assault because they are exactly the same except for the sexual part.

SECTIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE

Section 271 – Sexual Assault
Section 272 – Sexual Assault with a Weapon, Threats to a Third Party or
Causing Bodily Harm
Section 273 – Aggravated Sexual Assault
Section 151 – Sexual Interference
Section 152 – Invitation to Sexual Touching
Section 153 – Sexual Exploitation
Section 153.1 – Sexual Exploitation of Person with a Disability
Section 159 – Anal Intercourse
Section 173.2 – Indecent Acts – Exposure of Genitals to Person Under
16 Years of Age


SEXUAL ASSAULT (Basic Summaries)

Section 271 – Sexual Assault:
Somebody touches you in a sexual way on purpose, directly or indirectly, without your consent.

Section 272 – Sexual Assault With A Weapon, Threats to a Third Party or Causing Bodily Harm:
Somebody sexually assaults you and is armed with, or uses, a weapon, or, forces you to have sex by threatening to do injury to somebody else, (for example: they threaten to hurt your brother or sister if you don't do it), or, they injure you.

Section 273 – Aggravated Sexual Assault
Somebody sexually assaults you and they cause serious injuries to you.

Back to: SECTIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE
OTHER SEXUAL OFFENCES (Basic Summaries)

Section 151 – Sexual Interference:
If you are under 16 years old, it is a criminal offence for someone to touch your body for a sexual purpose with a part of their body or any object, directly or indirectly.

Section 152 – Invitation to Sexual Touching:
If you are under 16 years old, it is a criminal offence for someone to invite, counsel or incite you to touch, directly or indirectly, their body, the body of someone else or your own body, for a sexual purpose (with a part of your body or any object).

Section 153 – Sexual Exploitation:
If you are 16 years old or older, but under 18, it is a criminal offence for someone in a position of trust or authority to have sexual contact with you even if you consent to it. For example, someone in a position of trust or authority such as a minister, coach, employer, teacher, etc.

Section 153.1 – Sexual Exploitation of Person With a Disability:
If you are mentally or physically challenged (any age), it is a criminal offence if, without your consent, someone invites, counsels or incites you to touch, directly or indirectly, their body, the body of someone else or your own body, for a sexual purpose (with a part of your body or any object) if the offender is in a position of trust or authority towards you or if you are dependent on the offender.

Section 159 – Anal Intercourse:
If you are under 18, and not married to each other, it is a criminal offence to have anal sex even if both persons consent. You must be over 18, or married and both consenting. It must be done in private and only by two people (if there are three people involved then the law says it's not in private).

Section 173.2 – Indecent Acts – Exposure of Genitals to Person Under
16 Years of Age:
If you are under 16 years old, it is a criminal offence for someone to expose his or her genital organs to you for a sexual purpose.

Back to: SECTIONS OF THE CRIMINAL CODE

CONSENT (Your Rights About Saying Yes or No)

The law about consent can be complicated.
There are times when the offender sexually touches the victim without asking for permission. But, sometimes they do ask and the victim says "no" but the offender touches them anyway. If you say "no" then it means exactly that.

Your consent can't be forced. The courts can decide that consent was not given if the offender uses force, threats, fear of bodily harm, or by lying about what they wanted to do with you, or, if you are unable to give consent because you're mentally challenged.

Even if you do say yes, there are some cases when the other person can still get charged. Sometimes, you're not legally allowed to consent to have sex (Canadian Criminal Code 2000):

Basically, the legal age of consent is 16 years.

If you are under 14 years old, and you have sex with somebody more than two years older than you are, the other person can be charged with Sexual Assault. If you're 13 years old, you can consent to have sex with someone who' s 15 years old but you can't consent to have sex with a 16 year old person. The 16 year old person can be charged. If you're under 14 years old, you can't consent to have sex with anyone more than two years older than you are.

If you are under 18 years old, you can't legally consent to have sex with someone who is in a position of trust, power or authority over you. For example, a minister, coach, employer, teacher, police officer, etc. can be charged.

For more detailed information on the legal age of consent to sexual activity in Canada see the Parliamentary Research Branch at the Library of Parliament's website.



The Definition of Sexual Assault

The Canadian Criminal Code2 no longer contains separate offences of rape or indecent assault. In 1983, both of these offences were subsumed in the newly-created offence of “sexual assault.” The offence of assault is defined in s. 265 of the Code as an intentional touching without consent; ss. 271 through 273 create the offences of sexual assault, sexual assault causing bodily harm, and aggravated sexual assault. These offences are gender-neutral, in that either the complainant or the accused can be male or female.

The Code does not define the “sexual” element of a sexual assault. The Supreme Court of Canada has defined this element as follows:

‘Sexual assault is an assault ... which is committed in circumstances of a sexual nature, such that the sexual integrity of the victim is violated. The test to be applied in determining whether the impugned conduct has the requisite sexual nature is an objective one: “Viewed in the light of all the circumstances, is the sexual or carnal context of the assault visible to a reasonable observer?”’3
The actus reus of sexual assault therefore encompasses all forms of intentional, non-consensual touching that violates the complainant’s sexual integrity, whether or not the touching would have amounted to rape or indecent assault before 1983.

To prove a sexual assault, the Crown must also prove fault or mens rea, specifically that the accused knew, was wilfully blind to, or was reckless as to the victim’s lack of consent.4 To raise a reasonable doubt about the mens rea, the accused may not rely on his own self-induced intoxication or on his own failure to take reasonable steps to ascertain the complainant’s consent.5

For the actus reus of sexual assault, “consent” is purely subjective; that is, to prove that the complainant did not consent for the purpose of establishing the actus reus, the Crown needs to prove that the complainant, in her own mind, was unwilling for the sexual touching to occur.6 Consent is also limited by certain non-exhaustive provisions of the Code,7 including expressed lack of agreement by the complainant.8

For the mens rea of sexual assault, “consent” is objective. The accused’s claim that he honestly and mistakenly believed in the complainant’s consent must be a belief that the complainant had communicated her consent to him;9 it must not be tainted by any of the statutory factors vitiating consent;10 and it cannot be raised unless the accused took “reasonable steps, in the circumstances known to the accused at the time” to ascertain consent.11

Subject to certain exceptions, the age of consent to sexual activity in Canadian criminal law is 14.12

Proof of Sexual Assault

In order to establish that a sexual assault occurred, the Crown must prove each of the elements listed above beyond a reasonable doubt: that there was an intentional touching, that the complainant did not subjectively consent to the touch, that the touch was of a sexual nature, and that the accused knew or was wilfully blind to or was reckless as to the complainant’s lack of communicated consent, and did not have a mistaken belief in consent.

To prove non-consent, it is not necessary for the prosecution to prove that the complainant physically resisted the attack or that the accused used physical force. It would be a serious error of law for a trial judge to instruct a jury that proof of non-consent depended on resistance by the complainant or use of force by the accused. While the Crown may introduce evidence of injury to the complainant as evidence of non-consent, such evidence is not required to prove non-consent.

There is no concept of “implied consent” in the Canadian law of sexual assault. Neither the accused at the time of the offence nor the court at the time of trial can infer consent from lack of resistance. The Supreme Court specifically rejected the concept of “implied consent” in Ewanchuck13 and, in R. v. M.(M.L.),14 held that lack of resistance is not to be equated with consent.

It is, therefore, important to note that the absence of evidence of resistance by a complainant would not be relevant to the assessment of credibility of the complainant, and it would not be necessary for the Crown to establish that an accused used force or threats.

As stated in paragraph 1.6 above, under Canadian law, it is legally possible for a person of 14 years of age to give consent to conduct of a sexual nature. Furthermore, the age of the victim would have no formal impact on the burden of proof or on the facts that the Crown would have to prove. However, depending upon the specific facts of a given case, age and sexual inexperience of a victim could be used by the Crown in establishing the elements necessary to prove sexual assault, i.e. whether or not the victim consented.

Investigation and Prosecution of Sexual Offences

The decision to lay a charge under the Criminal Code normally rests with the police. It is open to the police to choose not to lay a charge if they find that an allegation is “unfounded.” There is little recourse for the complainant in this situation.



The Canadian code does not explicitly define sexual assault in terms of the types of sexual activity prohibited. However, for the purpose of determining whether a sexual assault has occurred, the statute defines consent as the “voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question.” If the complainant is incapable of consenting to the activity or if the complainant expresses, by words or conduct, a lack of agreement to engage in the activity, a defendant may not successfully defend against charges of sexual assault on the grounds that the complainant consented.


The law is available for those who wish to look it up...even better now with the internet.

Postscript.. Canada just recently changed the age of consent from 14 to 16 years of age.. I'm not entirely sure if the above info accurately represents the changes exactly.

it's called GOOGLE
 Landscaper

Joined: 7/9/2007
Msg: 156
When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 6:44:13 PM

Again, what we need here is lawyer from America and from Canada. . .maybe other countries,too. There are a lot of people telling us what the law is and NONE of them are listed as convicts, law officers or attornies.

i am ex law enforcement
 LoonyTunz

Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 157
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 7:04:33 PM
Should they fight back and have to show 'defense' wounds? It's hard enough for a rape victim to get a conviction, this would set them back a century.

Convictions are hard to get? You have to be kidding, this is one of the few areas where the onus is on the accused to prove innocence rather than guilt.


To prove a sexual assault, the Crown must also prove fault or mens rea, specifically that the accused knew, was wilfully blind to, or was reckless as to the victim’s lack of consent.4 To raise a reasonable doubt about the mens rea, the accused may not rely on his own self-induced intoxication or on his own failure to take reasonable steps to ascertain the complainant’s consent.5

Okay so you can't say you were too drunk to drive a car as an excuse, and you can't say you were too drunk to realise someone didn't consent to something even if they never so much as said "no", but you CAN say "I was so drunk I slept with someone I later regretted and now it is rape"?
Excuse me if I suggest that as an adult of legal age one should know their limits and be responsible for ALL of their behaviour intoxicated or not. Including screwing around on a husband/wife, gf/bf or just going to bed with a "10" and waking up next to a "2".

This doesn't come close to the predatory cretin looking to "get chicks trashed so he can get some" that I am sure the law MEANT to punish. It is a bit creepy when by gender you have one set of rule different from the other. And face it, it will be a cold day in hell before you see a guy in court calling such an example of poor judgement rape, just because his girlfriend found out or the woman was particularly homely and his friends found out.
 abelian

Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 158
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:50:41 PM
There is a saying one should remember: You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride. Being right is not much consolation when you have to pay to bail yourself out of jail, pay an attorney to defend you and sit waiting for the jury to return a verdict. Finally, most people will assume you were guilty and ``your attorney got you off,'' (no matter how much of a misconception that is), so a not guilty verdict for being not guilty, mainly means not going to jail, but having your life ****ed up. Why have sex with someone who is too wasted to be good at it?
 karma5290

Joined: 4/21/2007
Msg: 159
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 8:37:41 AM
Post 136-Mafio----- What a typical 21yo prick--keep flexing 'that' one muscle (?) and admiring your self--promise that will be your mug shot one of these days--
by the way, I have been and am a nurse and I do rape REPORTS and consultations for litigation--for over 25years now--so don't even go there--you couldn't handle it!
not that anything has to be explained to an idiot--
you make me sick

Thank you Ravenstar for your input--so many convictions get thrown out or not even reported because of the 'system' and its handling of the victims--Its a lifetime of living with something horrible, and it can affect so much of your future---(most?) men do not even see it as aggressive or a crime--Love the look on their faces when a guilty verdict is announced...
 holigolightly

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 160
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 8:42:56 AM
I think when you are uncertain and have to ask yourself this question... hmm.. I don't know
 joejoe82

Joined: 6/7/2007
Msg: 161
When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:50:17 AM
it's rape the second she feels she made a bad decision and wants to call it that. mixing babes with booze is a very bad idea. there is already laws existing in the uk and austrailia where drunk = rape. that's right, if she's drunk then you just raped her, even if your drunk aswell. i can almost gaurentee with all the misandrist politicians and judges over here in north america that it's only a matter of time until similar legislation is passed here. don't believe me? would you organize a protest in the streets over this? or just continue to excercise your right to remain silent all too well...?
 Willsniffurundies

Joined: 4/7/2008
Msg: 162
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:46:46 AM
Ok.
NOW we know the laws in CANADA.
We also now have people continuing to post basing at least part of their posts on CANADIAN law.
Perhaps we need someone to research AMERICAN laws now.
(This has gone on for so so long now I am not even sure WHERE the OP lives-lol! Maybe we need to stick to the laws where the OP lives/where the incident took place.)
ANYTHING ELSE, is just OPINION.
I would be curious as to how this would be handled in a court of law where the OP resides. THAT would be proper closure for this thread.
(By the way, to a certain Canadian artistic poster here: pretty women who read books--even via the internet--are a big turn-on! SOrry. Back to our regularly scheduled topic.)
 holigolightly

Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 163
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:52:34 AM

it's rape the second she feels she made a bad decision and wants to call it that.


It's not a matter of wanting to call it that. It is what it is. If a woman feels violated, who are you to say that she hasn't been?
 good guy75

Joined: 3/25/2008
Msg: 164
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:57:28 AM
let me tell you i would not take any girl home from the bar unless i nkew her.your playing russian rulet with your life.people allways say i used protection ,you can wear a full body suite if shes got you have it smarten up.
 Slightly_Stoopid

Joined: 7/23/2007
Msg: 165
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:04:23 AM

And face it, it will be a cold day in hell before you see a guy in court calling such an example of poor judgement rape, just because his girlfriend found out or the woman was particularly homely and his friends found out.


There would be so many more rape charges brought out against women it would be disgusting. While it would be kind of funny to see and you would see very very few convictions something like that would probably see a change in the wording of the laws because they are pretty biased. If women are truely happy with the current wording of the law think about it like this:

your husband has 2 beers within an hour and you have sex with him: thats criminal rape.

thats how open the laws read because being legally drunk makes you unable to give consent. it never goes that way (woman raped the man) because well......it kind of destroys the image of men being the agressor. No im not saying actual rape doesnt happen and that these laws are not in place for a good reason (date rape drugs, extremely drunk women) but it just needs to be taken down a notch or else legally almost everyone in America who isnt a virgin is a rapist. Because by the laws it just take the person being legally drunk, which is a pretty low threshold
 joejoe82

Joined: 6/7/2007
Msg: 166
When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:48:39 PM

It's not a matter of wanting to call it that. It is what it is. If a woman feels violated, who are you to say that she hasn't been?


maybe all the times you heard "yes" before, and during have something to do with it? have some personal accountability people, we are all adults after all and not children. i've gone to bed with some women i maybe regret the next day but that is by no means rape; just a poor decision!
 artzytype

Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 167
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:35:02 PM
It should be noted that a lot of women and men go home and have drunken sex with people they just met and they don't regret it. A lot of relationships have started that way, a lot of babies too (I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the beers my parents downed one summer night).
 chrissymarietx

Joined: 11/21/2006
Msg: 168
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:22:43 PM
i don't know about all this. all i can say is i'm 24 and i've had two one night stands....and, the first time i was so trashed i could barely walk. but, i knew what i wanted and who i wanted. and, i sure as hell made my way to his car!! it's not something i'm proud of and to be honest, friends had to tell me the next day some key points about the previous night. but, i was an adult and well aware of wether or not i wanted to have sex. i would be held accountable for anything illegal that i did if i was drunk. why not be held accountable for anything morally questionable?
 Kindredspirit07

Joined: 7/29/2005
Msg: 169
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:56:30 PM
I wouldn't consider it to be rape but I think that it is low and tacky on your part. Are you so desperate that you need to take advantage of a drunk girl? Come on buddy... Grow up!
 Kindredspirit07

Joined: 7/29/2005
Msg: 170
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:57:47 PM
It would also depend on what she said when the sex act was about to occur. If she changed her mind and didn't want sex but you did it anyway. That would be rape.
 COLIN079

Joined: 11/19/2007
Msg: 171
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/5/2008 4:10:53 AM
Stay well clear of drunk women period. In a typical worst case scenario if you have sex with them and they cry rape immediately after sex not only could you go to jail for a very long time but you could lose your family, the trust and respect of your family and friends and have the tag of "rapist" pinned on your collar and not be able to remove it for the rest of your life. Is all of this worth a few minutes of sex with a drunk woman? In N.Ireland you can be charged with "sexual assault" for simply patting a girl on the ass. There are people wasting away in prison on false rape charges made by women who were intoxicated on the evening in question and who later thought it was not a good idea to have had sex or who just for whatever reason they could come up with decided to take a dislike to the guy they had been with. In prison sex offenders are the scum of the prison community and are assaulted and attacked by other non-sex offender prisoners. Clearly some guys do take advantage of women in bars but some guys may fall foul of the law simply by having consensual sex with a woman whose had one beer too many and who later has regrets. If in doubt just say nowt, find yourself a woman in a sober state who knows what shes doing and who you can trust. Better safe than sorry.
 Anazdaddy

Joined: 7/12/2007
Msg: 172
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/5/2008 8:19:28 AM
I don't know if I would consider that rape, as in foreceable rape. While intoxicated, she was obviously still conscious and aware of her surroundings. If she were drunk to the point of passing out, I think the last thing she would do is ask to be f*cked. That being said, it is not something I would recommend. It depends on level of intoxication. Before just letting your hormones and alcohol rule, ask yourself if it COULD or WOULD be considered a form of rape if you were to take her home and have sex. If you have any inclination to answer 'yes' then I would just avoid, and tell her no thanks. Not worth the risk. Also, depending on how much alcohol she consumed, she could go from consious and aware to blacked out in a very short period of time. If you go to a storefront, and see what appears to be discarded but good merchandise, ask yourself, would it be stealing if you were to take it even if it appears free and available?

Personally, even if it was someone I was attracted to and my own drunkness or hormones were raging, I would not have sex with someone, especially someone I just met, who appeared too drunk to drive or otherwise function normally. Last thing I want is to be labled a rapist for what seemed to be a quick good time. Also, the thought of taking advantage of someone like that is a complete turn off. So if I have to ask myself, the answer will automatically be "NO THANKS".
 ace1821

Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 173
When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:21:22 AM
I have not had a drink in some time. When i was younger, it was a different story. However i have never been so drunk that i didnt know what i was doing. I think the i was drunk excuse is a cop out. and that is in all directions. If you make the choice to get drunk you are making the choice to take the consiquences.
 kinkdude

Joined: 10/25/2007
Msg: 174
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:21:35 AM
Whatever she said, I do think it is unethical. I would wonder what her answer is if she was sober.
 Boricua Papi

Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 175
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When is taking a drunk girl home from a bar and having sex considered rape?
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:12:54 AM
She made an adult decision to get drunk in a bar. She got sex, what else she wants now?
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