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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:26:26 AM |
Hey, yes, he should have stopped and the point is: he did and she even went so far as to get a lift from them. Is this something a woman who was raped does? Get a ride with their rapist?
For a minute, I was going to be scathing... but I won't. I'm actually glad you don't know how women that end up as prey behave. If a lot fewer people had first hand knowledge of that, it would be a much better world...
Cowboy | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:28:19 AM | I wouldn't have classified the sited case as rape. It sounds as if he did honor her request and she didn't go away running to the police.
I do believe however if a woman or man is uncomfortable after intercourse has begun they have the inherent right to withdraw premission to go forward. Not to adhere to someone's request is a violation of the other person's rights. Plain and simple.
No, I'm sorry we're not referencing high school girls here. The fact is a lot of men/women aren't respectful physically, emotionally and/or both after permission has begun. Unfortunately, this is present in across the board and not just with high schooler's generally worse the older the partner is as high school has some innocence and a learning curve attached to it on both sides. I believe this is on both sides of the gender fence. "I want a lady on the street and a freak in the sheets," well, there are those that define 'freak' as a less than acceptable encounter. Hopefully, not the norm ... but come on .........
Cowboy -- thanks -- you're balanced -- no one wants bad sex and should have the right to dis-engage when it becomes appearent you're in for a bad ride. Some women/men just go through with it to the end of the session and will never see the man/woman again ... and some rightfully want this mis-conduct to stop in it's tracks. I don't think, "Stop stop - oh please - don't stop" is what is being referenced on this thread ... | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:35:54 AM | By the way it is rape if the guy changes his mind during sex, but I doubt we'll see many or any cases like that.
Actually this IS a very good point but in reality, rape is more about who has the power or control and who doesn't.
Not to get too graphic but I was with a woman once and I said to her (in the middle of things) I need a break (it was fricken HOT out) and she says "no you don't, clamped her legs around me and we went at it for 5 more minutes....is this rape? According to the rules yes it was..........
"Stop stop - oh please - don't stop" is what is being referenced on this thread ...
But my point was that it could have been, very easily. As you specifically said: it's a learning curve. Again, if he had continued for a minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, then that's a different story. But 5 seconds?
I forget now who posted it but if a woman said NO and meant NO, then fine and dandy. But how often to we hear of women who play "hard to get", how many times do we hear of women who say No, but means yes?
I mean really, picture it, she says Ok to have sex with 2 guys. One has sex and when it comes to the other guy's turn, he's just about to start and she says no....they were obviously already naked, they were already in position, he's on top of her, just about to enter and she says softy, no, he's lost in the world, she says no again, he goes Huh what? Oh f*ck me all to hell, so they get up, get dressed, hop in the care and drive home......it's not that far fetched.
Here's another example for you: I was dating this other woman. I was going down on her, beforehand she told me not to do something while I was there. Well once I got into it I kind of got lost in the moment and did what I wasn't supposed to do. Well she drew back and really smacked me upside the head. I TOLD you NOT TO DO THAT, duh, oops sorry, I got lost in the moment...NOT unheard of....(lol yeah, I've dated some winners lol) | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:45:54 AM |
Not to get too graphic but I was with a woman once and I said to her (in the middle of things) I need a break (it was fricken HOT out) and she says "no you don't, clamped her legs around me and we went at it for 5 more minutes....is this rape? According to the rules yes it was..........
Wow, took longer than I expected for that one to come out. Trite answer: Dude, you can't rape the willing ;-). Here's the litmus test: if, when relaying this story after the fact to your friends, you were smirking proudly (or are smirking right now while you reminisce), it wasn't rape ;-).
Oh, right. "But that's not fair!" Yeah, well it's not about fair, is it? It's sex ;-).
Cowboy | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:47:52 AM | I need a break isn't classified as this has to end and end now
why doesn't it? By your interpretation? So as men we're supposed to "know" when no means no and yes means no and no means yes and i'm having second thoughts and want to stop or i'm having second thoughts but let's do it anyways?
In MY mind yes, I need a break means I want to stop now, not 5 minutes from now......
you were smirking proudly (or are smirking right now while you reminisce), it wasn't rape ;-).
To be totally honest? I didn't find it funny at all at the time....one thing I learned by that experience is to never date or get intimate with a woman who was bigger than I was.....(which is why I only date women my size or smaller).
And yeah, I understand you're kidding, rape the willing, lol that is funny but still.... | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:55:39 AM |
why doesn't it? By your interpretation? So as men we're supposed to "know" when no means no and yes means no and no means yes and i'm having second thoughts and want to stop or i'm having second thoughts but let's do it anyways?
By jove, I think he's got it! Ya know how we can tell, listening to a car, whether it's the right front wheel bearing or the water pump or just the alternator belt making that squealing sound? Yeah, well, you gotta be just as good with women, or they'll overheat and break down on ya, too ;-).
In MY mind yes, I need a break means I want to stop now, not 5 minutes from now......
So you pull your****out and brace yourself to start receiving some very sharp physical and verbal abuse ;-).
Sometimes it's fun to do just to jerk their chain ;-).
Cowboy | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:02:32 AM | We're not hearing the whole story here. Why would either defendant plead guilty in this instance if there wasn't MUCH more to the story?
Specifically, why would the first defendant when his action are not defined as rape in ANY court? The "5-second" second defendant has an argument to make but the first is completely innocent since consent was given prior to penentration.
The judge and the defendants had to know something else that was not publicized which would have resulted in harsher penalties. This was obviously a plea deal based on unpublicized information. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:17:55 AM |
Hey, yes, he should have stopped and the point is: he did and she even went so far as to get a lift from them. Is this something a woman who was raped does? Get a ride with their rapist?
For a minute, I was going to be scathing... but I won't. I'm actually glad you don't know how women that end up as prey behave. If a lot fewer people had first hand knowledge of that, it would be a much better world...
PLEASE...
This is not consistent with my knowledge of behavior of a woman who's been raped. It is however VERY consistent with the behavior of a woman who's engaged in sexual behavior that she later regrets.
The woman CHOSE to, and consented to, having what basically amounts to a 3way. Sure she can change her mind. Sure she can even change it in progress. How the F is this woman "prey"??? Predator maybe! LOL
If I have to hear "no means no!" one more time I'll vomit. SHEEP. Women are incapable of being in charge of their bodies but we're flawless at communicating what we want? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It's insulting Cowboy, the complete lack of regard you have for women as beings who are unable to function socially, protect themselves at all, or make choices. Victims, victims, victims. . .  | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:21:16 AM | In MY mind yes, I need a break means I want to stop now, not 5 minutes from now......
Did you want to see her again ??? Did you see her again ??? Did you feel you were violated or just exhausted & over-heated ??? If you felt violated after your shower or more than three weeks worth of them ... then yes ... I'm sorry for your experience ... you were indeed raped ....... If you saw or wanted to see her again ....... you're comments on this thread are rediculously self-serving ...... | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:29:41 AM | I am rather confused why two threads now on the topic of Rape.
Is this a major concern as part of the ritual of Dating n Mating?
Rape is Rape plain and simple... both parties know what has happened, even after the effects of the alcohol have worn off.
If it feels wrong...then I would say it is more than just plain regrets but something bad has happened and a rape has occurred. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:38:00 AM |
It's insulting Cowboy, the complete lack of regard you have for women as beings who are unable to function socially, protect themselves at all, or make choices. Victims, victims, victims. . .
Sorry. I spent most of Saturday night and the wee hours of Sunday morning in some of the darker places of Ottawa with a social worker friend of mine doing research for the articles she's writing... spending that much time talking to strippers, hookers, and crack addicts and about how they got into "The Life" and the mechanisms they use to cope with "it", the beatings, the rapes, the addictions... that'll stick with you for a few days.
I promise to try and begin seeing women as the beautiful Amazons they are again soon ;-).
Cowboy | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:00:29 AM |
spending that much time talking to strippers, hookers, and crack addicts and about how they got into "The Life" and the mechanisms they use to cope with "it", the beatings, the rapes, the addictions
There you have it - big difference between children who are molested who get f'ed up big time as adults and enter "the life" as you call it....and grown women who CHOOSE to engage in non-routine sexual behaviors but don't have their shit together to be able to handle it.
That's how you're coming off, to me anyway - seeing women as helpless and defenseless as little children who are being molested by family members or the like.
Also, note that many people come from these crappy backgrounds and actually end up as well-adjusted, together ppl who just deal with the past. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.
Me, I make my own choices, and am accountable. Yes it's politically correct to ignore all the things that a woman might do that say YES if by chance she meeps out a "no" or "stop" during the act. Never mind that she put her own self in some position, often INTENTIONALLY for attention, sex, love, or whatever. But as someone else says - one word and she can ruin the lives of the guys she uses. It's pathetic and those who follow the PC line of thinking are IMO diss'ing women, not empowering them.
Just curious too, how does "stop" mean "I no longer consent" and not "sec, I need to shift" or "wow" or "stop doing this one little thing but def don't stop banging me!!"
LOL LOL | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:08:35 AM | No-one says "STOP!" for no reason. Generally, stop means: "You are hurting me a LOT! Please stop now before you cause me serious injury!" So it doesn't matter when a person says "STOP!" Whenever someone says it, you have to stop.
If you were having sex with a woman, and she asked you if it was OK for her to stick her finger up your bum, and you said it was OK, only she rammed it in, and it was really hurting, or it freaked you out, and you said "STOP!" Should she keep on?
If your son was in a boxing ring with another boy, just sparring, and the boy hits your son a couple of times, and your son doesn't mind, but the kid keeps hitting your son in the same place, really hard, and your son says "STOP!" Should he keep on? Is it OK for your son to get brain damage?
Stop means that there is a reason to say stop. But you cannot find out why should stop, until you have stopped and listen to the reason. So you always have to stop.
It doesn't surprise me that she said stop. It sounds like she said that the second kid could have sex with her after the first kid was done. But they tried to have sex with her at the same time, like a gang-bang in a hard-core porn film.
It also doesn't surprise me that it was teenage boys who did this. Teenage boys are known to not listen to reason, even when they were killing someone.
I would imagine that these 2 boys wanted to copy a hard-core porn film, and that wasn't the girl's intent at all. Two boys against one girl? That's forced intercourse. She said stop. That is forced unwilling sex. That's rape.
If you don't want to be charged with rape, learn to listen. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:12:24 AM |
There you have it - big difference between children who are molested who get f'ed up big time as adults and enter "the life" as you call it....and grown women who CHOOSE to engage in non-routine sexual behaviors but don't have their shit together to be able to handle it.
Agreed. But that's the thing. There are an awful lot of "conflicted" women out there, that one side of them wants to *just enjoy* their sexuality, but somewhere in the process, catholic school or the ghost of some dead nun puts a guilt trip on them and the balk. And, as this is the "blame anybody but me" era... Tricky thing, being a naked guy sometimes ;-).
Also, note that many people come from these crappy backgrounds and actually end up as well-adjusted, together ppl who just deal with the past. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.
Point in fact, show me that woman, a woman who has been down that road and holds her head high and will look anyone square in the eye and owns her history, she's the kind that give me whiplash ;-).
Cowboy | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:54:49 AM | OK, I figured the OP wasn't the whole story so I looked it up. This is referring to the case of Maouloud Baby v. State of Maryland. Here is a synopsis of the ruling just so we all have a basis for this discussion:
A Maryland State Court Rules that Women May Not Withdraw Consent After Penetration: The Perils of Relying on HistoryLate last month, in Maouloud Baby v. State of Maryland, the Court of Special Appeals of Maryland held that once a man has begun a consensual act of sexual intercourse with a woman, he may continue until he climaxes - even if she asks him to stop - without violating the law of rape.
In the State of Maryland, in other words, the law of rape presently does not authorize a woman to demand that her partner withdraw after penetration has already occurred.
As far as I can tell, the sentences of the two teenagers involved was evidentally later reversed. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:57:18 AM |
So it doesn't matter when a person says "STOP!" Whenever someone says it, you have to stop.
Um - did I miss something? I haven't heard anyone say they shouldn't have stopped when she changed her mind. Not sure your point, or if you're reading the posts.
Two boys against one girl? That's forced intercourse.
[...]
That's rape.
To some people, it's fun. Perfect example of HOLY SCARY BATMAN. Some girls dig this whether you'll ever grasp it or not. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 11:40:53 AM |
Point in fact, show me that woman, a woman who has been down that road and holds her head high and will look anyone square in the eye and owns her history, she's the kind that give me whiplash ;-).
I'm one of those women and I don't understand what difference it makes. As well adjusted, self aware and strong as I am, I'm still able to become conflicted and change my mind about sharing my body with another. The reason why doesn't matter, because no one else has the right to decide for me if my reason is "good enough." My body, my rules. If it makes me a fukked up individual that teases men, so be it, I really don't care. My well being is far more important to me than whether or not I'm called names or viewed poorly. I rather admire the fact that I'd catch myself and try to correct my mistake, versus thinking so little of myself that I'd continue on just to please a man and allow him his jollies. That's empowerment, too.
I've never done this (tho I've suffered through many a piss poor encounter) and I can't think of any reason why I ever would, but if and when I ever do, he damn well better stop. Not a soul on earth has the right to trump my decision about MY body. I'm not a tease and I don't mislead and I love sex, but if I express that it's time to call it a day, then it's time to call it a day.
It's interesting that a guy can grasp "Oh, dear God--that hurts--please stop" and he'll stop, yet if she says pretty much anything other than that, then suddenly he has the right to over rule her and claim that it's too hard to stop. That's fukked up. Either you can stop or you can't. Physical pain is understood and accepted, but when it comes to emotional pain/angst, she's all on her own, huh? That's beautiful stuff there. It surely speaks to how much caring is in place.
Sex is about sharing pleasure. It isn't about giving up your power and rights to your own body, it isn't about control, it isn't a solo act and it isn't a contract. It's a fluid act that is about giving and receiving pleasure. It shifts. It escalates. It changes from one moment to the next because there's 2 or more people participating in the giving and receiving, and it's responsive. It's the mutual response that makes it so dang sweet. If you take away the mutual aspect of it, what do you have? Power, control, force.
Why must mutual consent exist in the first place? Because I have to welcome you into my body because it's mine. It's not yours. If I decide I can't share anymore because I'm psychotic, or drunk, or conflicted, or bi polar, or full of gas and terrified I'll explode and shoot you across the room, or having a heart attack, or a headache, or I'm distracted by kids knocking at the door...your welcome is over and so is our time of sharing. It really is that simple.
It's all this "gray area" of trying to determine if a reason is good enough, if he/she really means it and who's right or wrong that muddies the waters and creates court cases that should never see the light of day. This stuff is private and no one knows what goes on behind closed doors. No one. It will always be a "he said/she said" fiasco that will come down to being about so much other stuff that is private, too. Judgments will fly, the wrong people--yanno, the ones that weren't there and don't have a clue what happened--will get to determine whether Johnny had more right to Susie's body than Susie did...how freaking absurd! All over whether or not he was allowed to finish with her blessing. Wow-o-wow!
Call me whatever you will, but I'll never give up the right to decide what does or doesn't happen to my body from one moment to the next. I'm not some silly twit that's clueless about what she wants or feels, but I am a flawed human being that doesn't always make the very best decisions, especially when my heart's involved. If I goof, I'll be accountable, but I will NOT lay there letting some dude upset or hurt me in any way.
I'm recalling a couple rough patches in a past relationship that resulted in brief periods of abstinence because we were both hurt and pissed. We knew that we weren't ready to connect again sexually and didn't even want to. When we finally did, it was strained and just plain weird. He lost his erection and finally said "I just can't". I immediately shut down and stopped. I can't imagine doing anything other than that...it never occurred to me to do anything other than that. All I could think about was just how bad things were. We stopped, we talked, we cried, we cleared the air-- and then we had awesome, hot and steamy monkey sex. :) Really good stuff, and in my eyes, that's the way to treat each other.
That said, sure, it sucked and yes, of course I wanted to keep lovin' on him, but his angst and discomfort trumped my desire to go on. If I had gone on, his lack of response and my lack of respect and concern for him would've been a really bad time. Theres nothing mutual in that, other than misery. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 11:49:07 AM | | The moment someone says STOP - you STOP! No questions or hesitations about it! No one has the right to vilolate another persons body from the second they have decided not to partake in any kind of intimate activity! NO MEANS NO!! | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 11:58:40 AM |
Rentahusband said: Hey, yes, he should have stopped and the point is: he did and she even went so far as to get a lift from them. Is this something a woman who was raped does? Get a ride with their rapist?
Lostcowboy said: For a minute, I was going to be scathing... but I won't. I'm actually glad you don't know how women that end up as prey behave. If a lot fewer people had first hand knowledge of that, it would be a much better world...
WayTooNiceGirl said:This is not consistent with my knowledge of behavior of a woman who's been raped. It is however VERY consistent with the behavior of a woman who's engaged in sexual behavior that she later regrets.
Unless you have been the victim of a rape, you will never be able to understand or comprehend what your behaviour would be afterward. As a matter of fact, the behaviour after being raped is completely dependant upon the individual.
Having said that, I do not agree that these boys should have been charged with rape. Hell, I know if I'm riding my partner and lost in the moment, chances are if he asked me to stop it may take me that 5 seconds to comprehend what he's saying. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 12:01:03 PM | Did you want to see her again ??? Did you see her again ??? Did you feel you were violated or just exhausted & over-heated ??? If you felt violated after your shower or more than three weeks worth of them ... then yes ... I'm sorry for your experience ... you were indeed raped ....... If you saw or wanted to see her again ....... you're comments on this thread are rediculously self-serving ......
Sorry, all the above parameters you put into the situation have no bearing whatsoever on the situation being discussed: which is: stop means stop, or no means no.
If a husband has sex with his wife while she is sleeping, that is classified as rape. EOS. Doesn't matter if they stay married, if they still have sex, if they even invite 3 midgets a goat and hang a trapeze, he still raped her. EOS.
But I get it, because it happened to a man, it is somehow different in your mind. If this happened to a woman, and during the act she said her version of stop, and he continued, would you STILL say it wasn't rape or a violation of some sort?
Unless you have been the victim of a rape, you will never be able to understand or comprehend what your behaviour would be afterward. As a matter of fact, the behaviour after being raped is completely dependant upon the individual.
Well, there are common denominators that many victims of any crime do take and those are taken into consideration during the trial.
As for whether or not I can say I have or have not been a victim, according to the "rules", I have, I said stop, and was prevented from stopping. Now according to one on this thread, it wasn't.....so I shall leave that up to you. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/23/2008 12:06:23 PM | *edit* sorry didn't see the second page. I thought this was just a similar case ... the 5 seconds to withdraw is already being discussed so I jumped in with what I thought was another case. Statements and feelings are the same tho ...
*************
Another recent case involved a withdrawl of consent during the act and it took him - by her testimony - fully 5 to 6 SECONDS to pull out.
He was convicted. It is under appeal but his life is pretty much ruined, he'll be destitute forever paying the legal bills and may still lose the appeal and have to do HARD TIME.
Such "rape" convictions are ludicrous. No matter what is said about "my body and when I say NO I mean NO." and all that. Contrary to GIVING women power court actions like this take power away from women. Women are systematically being denied the capability to think for themselves and make decisions that they have to take responsibility for. Some women may THINK that is a great step forward for their cause by when EVER you lose the ability to make a choice and be held responsible, in the end it is a LOSS not a gain.
I'm not, as I've said on another similar thread, taking anything away from a true date rape especially where she loses her virginity that way but even that is considered 2nd degree. But the way this PC Rape rulings are coming in by lib left judges is ridiculous. I used to be a cop. I have seen the immediate aftermath of REAL rapes. Some of these rulings are a travesty and an insult to any woman who has been RAPED!!! If I was a woman who had been brutally raped by some psycho ( REAL rape is not so much sex as pain and terror ) and there are these PC rulings of rape by definition - a guy who thought she wanted it too, started intercourse and them was CONVICTED of RAPE because it took him 5 SECONDS to pull out ...??? - I'd be SICK to my stomach.
If society is going to allow women to ruin a life over 5 seconds of a previously consensual act then the least the courts could do is implement a series of degrees of assault and rape so that a 5 SECOND delay doesn't result in essentially the same penalty for the guy as some psycho who buttfu¢ks some 16 yr old for 3 or 4 DAYS until she needs extensive reconstructive surgery, carves his initials in her breasts and stubs out cigarettes on her clit. How ANYBODY can compare the two is beyond me.  | |
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