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| textodd11
Posted: 4/28/2008 1:39:20 PM |
And what do you mean by "try"?
Zachariah, go back and read the thread you are trying to comment on and you will have your answer.
Ignorant- definition- uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field.
By not reading the thread you have rendered yourself lacking of knowledge in the specific field that is this discussion and case. Are you sure you still want to talk about ignorance?
NOBODY IS DEBATING WHETHER "NO MEANS NO". Everyone here to this point in the discussion has agreed that it does.
What is being debated is this: Once consent has been given, how long is a reasonable time for the individual involved to stop the act once that consent is withdrawn? Is 5 seconds reasonable? Is it 1 second? Should the man be able to dematerialize instantaneously once the woman says, "stop"? Some on this thread seem to think so. Personally, I don't think 5 seconds is extreme and some consideration should be given to circumstance before destroying a young man's life and sending him to prison for 15 years over 5 seconds of delayed reaction. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/28/2008 1:51:47 PM | Personally, it's moot with me. One No, stop, enough, or anything else that remotely hints at rejection, and I'd deflate faster than a hot air balloon on high voltage tower. It's quite simple with me, if she's not asking for more, I don't want to give her more, I'll stop giving. In fact, I stopped dating someone because it seemed like she was just "doing her womanly duty". Well don't let me inconvenience you....
In my first marriage, my ex asked me to hurry up once. I didn't have sex with her for a year, then I left. (there's more to this but that was the end result.)
But to answer the question, if she says no, stop. Treat her the way you will after. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:33:20 PM | Thanks for the definition of ignorance, it has even more authority when spoken condescendingly. How's communication for you when you're way up there on that horse? =]
By not reading the thread you have rendered yourself lacking of knowledge in the specific field that is this discussion and case.
Funny that you say that. Because reading the thread entails reading peoples posts. And if you had paid attention to mine then you would have known I was addressing the "no means no" thing, but rather the fact that she took her consent back, and he continued to assault her.
NOBODY IS DEBATING WHETHER "NO MEANS NO"
Yes, I am aware the consensus in this thread has been "no means no". But what does that really mean? It means the consensus in this thread is that sex should be of mutual consent. Now lets look at some words you yourself used:
she decided to withdraw her previously given consent
Thus consent is no longer mutual. Thus "no means no". Yet..., again from your words...
Because one boy continued to try to penetrate the girl for 5 SECONDS
yet the dude continued. without consent, regardless of the "no means no". My point, from my previous post, which you didn't acknowledge when you made your accusations about my ignorance, was that the seconds are irrelevant and arbitrary. Once she revoked the consent, then it became rape. That's how the Law defines it, that's how Dictionary.com defines it, and apparently that's how the people in this thread define it; hence the consensus "no means no".
BTW if I recall the article said 5 to 10 seconds? I might be mistaken on that. I also recall that he Pleaded Guilty... he shouldn't have if he truly felt he was innocent to the allegations. He got locked up because 1) he sexually assaulted her against her consent and 2) he pleaded guilty of the crime.
Ultimately the argument in his defense about him spending 15 behind bars is rather silly imo considering he Pleaded Guilty. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:15:18 PM | | It's so sad to see yet another male warped and brainwashed be years of feminist rhetoric to the point where he would actually say this laughable situation could actually be anything close to rape. Stopping right away DOES take a few seconds. Even if you did it as fast as you could it would be a few seconds. This is just another tool for women to have complete control and destructive power over men. The evil that was perpetrated against this boy was disgusting and sick plain and simple. No excuse for it. This girl obviously wasn't traumatized and the two people were familiar in this case. With any luck karma will catch up with this very dangerous, cold and manipulative girl. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:38:00 PM |
It's so sad to see yet another male warped and brainwashed be years of feminist rhetoric to the point where he would actually say this laughable situation could actually be anything close to rape.
This is just another tool for women to have complete control and destructive power over men.
Another tool for women to have complete control and "destructive" power over men?? Are you kidding me? Perhaps you have been brain-washed by misogynistic, womanizing rhetoric from the Gentlemen's Club? lol.
Anyways, what's laughable is that it wasn't the women who sent him to prison, as your fire and brimstone rant suggested . It was the Jury and his Guilty Plea. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:48:25 PM | www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/cosa/2006/225s05.pdf
That's a link to the transcript of the case in question if anyone cares to know the facts. The facts are, she had been sexually assaulted by the first man (who pleaded guilty) and the other boy fondled and put her in position for the friend, then left. He came back, asked her if she was going to "let him hit it" and told her he didn't want to rape her.
Now, based on that, you have an already traumatized rape victim who was just told that she should give consent because the guy didn't want to rape her. Her consent reaction is pretty reasonable in that case.
The 15 years is not a sentance solely based on the "5 seconds" but also on the other crimes commited in conjunction. Read the case and tell me this isn't rape. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 12:32:53 AM | | now im not going to go back and quote everything, lotta pages. and yes i did read them all. yes no means no at anytime during the act. not after the act. if youve had consensual sex, finished, rolled over and lit a smoke, sorry but it is too late to withdraw consent no matter how much you may regret it in hindsight.but what some people are not seeing in this, over and over, is reaction time. EVERYTHING you do takes a certain amount of time. im not arguing the points of this case, i wasnt there, and most if not all of you werent either. the fact is everything anyone does takes time for the message to translate to action. if you are in midstroke, and she says stop, and in the time it took you to react and withdraw, im sorry, thats not rape. hold something in your hand, drop it, and catch it out of the air, having the foresight to know you have to react, it still takes time to catch it. add in the lack of foresight of a consensual act ,that in my experiance tends to be very distracting, having permission suddenly withdrawn, and now its taking a few seconds from "stop" to "stopped" did you ignore her wishes? no. was it rape? no. | |
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| Bobsolid
Posted: 4/29/2008 12:45:06 AM | As you said, doesn't apply to this case.
But I understand what you're saying. If I was near climax and the girl just casually said "stop zak", I may not hear or even comprehend that for a few seconds, it might take a couple times. But if the girl feels she is being sexually assaulted, she isn't going to be casual about it, she will say it forcefully and probably accompany her voice with physical actions as well. That doesn't take a few seconds to understand and respond to. It was probably closer to the later in the case of this thread. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 12:53:24 AM | Ok just spent forever reading all 7 pages of posts.
First let me just state that i have not,and will not condone rape.
Now let me bring up this fact.
In the court transcripts the(alleged) victim stated that boy #2 was ATTEMPTING penetration with her concent. When he was UNABLE to penetrate he was hurting her so she told him to stop. then for the next 5 seconds he continued to ATTEMPT to penetrate her.
Im not saying that his actions where the right ones but,when the term "rape" is used, some criminal codes explicitly consider most kinds of sexual activity to be rape when performed out of wedlock, whereas in others only acts involving penis penetration of the vagina. If he was ATTEMPTING to penetrate then obviously he was unable. Now this brings up questions in the back of my mind. How long had he been trying before she said to stop? I dont know about you but if I was having problems getting it in I might be a little preoccupied with the problem at hand. Hell i might even have to say "Im sorry, what did you say?"Depending on certain variables like mental fatigue, background noise,and over all mental state at the time it might take me 5 seconds to register that she said anything at all let alone stop what im doing and back away.
I just did a search on verifying the credibility of rape victims and found out that even in the most extreme cases such things as polygraphs and brain mapping using an mri where never even concitered, and in some cases the victim down right refused . The court systems apparently dont care if the victim is lying anymore, they are of the mind that "Ohh, this person said that it happened so it must have."
i have come to the conclusion that lady justice isnt just blind but deaf, mute, and mentally handicapped.
Gideon Quoted [I would rather be single and celibate until the woman that wants to submit and be a part of me comes along ]
I don't doubt you will be single and celibate for the rest of your life with that bad attitude of all women. Or maybe if you hate women that much, become gay
lady thats the most scence you have made this whole thread. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 1:01:37 AM | Hmm you said you read the whole thread but you didn't factor in a few things in that scenario you just described. Here was a recent post from the member KTHYG
The facts are, she had been sexually assaulted by the first man (who pleaded guilty) and the other boy fondled and put her in position for the friend, then left. He came back, asked her if she was going to "let him hit it" and told her he didn't want to rape her.
Now, based on that, you have an already traumatized rape victim who was just told that she should give consent because the guy didn't want to rape her. Her consent reaction is pretty reasonable in that case.
The 15 years is not a sentance solely based on the "5 seconds" but also on the other crimes commited in conjunction.
i have come to the conclusion that lady justice isnt just blind but deaf, mute, and mentally handicapped.
Wait lol... you came to that conclusion based on this one case!? Or is that the culmination of your life experience with the justice system? hehe.
I am just curious. I actually agree with you, but not because of this case. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 1:23:46 AM |
ATTEMPTING to penetrate then obviously he was unable. Now this brings up questions in the back of my mind. How long had he been trying before she said to stop? I dont know about you but if I was having problems getting it in I might be a little preoccupied with the problem at hand. Hell i might even have to say "Im sorry, what did you say?"
He should have tipped his hat and said "pardon me maim, but I done missed the hole... I gues I'll try again next time..." then politly apologized for the attempt and walked away privileged and rewarded by the chance he had at taking her chastity.. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 3:35:31 AM | Zach: Actually you just showed that "media brainwashing" again with the cliche
"woman hater" comment that people have been conditioned to use when anyone contests ANYTHING wrong that a woman does. This is usually used to deflect the issue and instill guilt in the man for having an opinion. Luckily I have no problem seeing right through this. So sad. I am in no way a woman hater and I think disgusting women like the one involved in this court case are an insult to women who have actually been raped and abused. I believe in true equality between the sexes but unfortunately, one always seems to be trying to control the other in our society. It's obvious to anyone who isn't blind that the majority of laws involving abuse, divorce, and custody situations have been influenced and strong armed by extreme feminist views which have seeped into the system and poisoned it. To not see this is ridiculous.
Men are usually treated very unfairly in most of these cases. The fact that a jury did what they did to this kid just shows how controlled and narrow minded most men's thinking has become. According to some scientists, men will actually be eliminated from society all together with women being able to reproduce without them and all babies being born as female. This is the end result of extreme feminism that has taken hold of our society. Feminism usually isn't about equality but dominence. I don't believe one sex should have more rights or more control than the other and as it stands neither sex seems to believe in having that at this point. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 6:10:46 AM |
With any luck karma will catch up with this very dangerous, cold and manipulative girl. What about the brain dead judge? Isn't intelligence supposed to be a prerequisite for a seat on the bench? And what of the prosecutors? Do you have to be immoral to be a prosecutor? Seems so. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 2:42:42 PM | Wait lol... you came to that conclusion based on this one case!? Or is that the culmination of your life experience with the justice system? hehe.
i actually have a good bit of experience with the justice system. this case was just the icing on the cake. about 5 years ago a good friend of mine started going to therapy and it turns out that her father used to molest her and her sisters, but since it happened over 15 years earlier the statute of limitations in my state prohibited him from being prosecuted. thats just the first bit of experience i have with the justice system.
2 years ago my cousin was convicted of armed robery of a convenience store. when he provided documentation that proved that he wasnt even in the state at the time the judge actually called him a lier in court. he spent 6 months in county lockup before the case was appealed and he was released. he didnt even get an apology. in fact the judge said thatwith the evidence that the court held he still felt that my cousin had something to do with the inccident. the only evidence that the court had was a positive identification by an elderly woman that my cousins lawyer found out had rather severe cateracts (sp?). | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/29/2008 8:54:56 PM | | sam: I totally agree. I think I said in an earlier post that any judge that would be part of this should be up on charges themselves because it obviously isn't safe to have such a biased person on the bench. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/29/2008 11:42:18 PM | | Im not understanding why the first kid got 18 months if intercourse was consensual with him? This doesnt seem very well thought out....honestly it seems like the poster heard something vaguely similar to this but in their self righteous rage embellished, or that the poster simply misunderstood......I would give an opinion, but not on a "case" where the facts seem warped, also what "other crimes" was the second boy convicted of? Also the woman was a community college student, and the boys were in highschool, what were the ages of these kids? Why did the female acquiesce to the second kid? It didnt seem like she was too eager, but when I was a teenager I would have kicked some serious A$$! had any guy assumed that I would be interested in a gang banging lol. Just trying to point out some indescrepencies...and also a few judgments despite my best effort lol...... | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 4/30/2008 3:15:10 AM |
Some men are mean in bed, some lack total affection, some are in the act only for themselves and use the woman as some sort of blow up doll ... what women wants to take this mentality any further as it isn't humor it's cruel.
ok...now I don't know the whole story to this case, but if what the original poster says is true, then in this particular situation, I think you need'nt feel so exasperated that these 2 guys treated ( or tried to treat) this women "like a blow up doll"
Here is this chic ready and willing to have sex with the both of them...how much respect was she really expecting to get from them? Not exactly a princess here.
Also many posters seem prepared to grab their torches and burn this kid at the stake. Lets stay focused folks. It was 5 seconds. Also, we are not aware of all the little details. Did she yell out no? or was it more of a breathy whisper? Did she say "maybe we shouldn't do this...pause pause pause...lets not....pause pause....I SAID NO!! I SAID NO 5 SECONDS AGO AND U DIDN'T STOP!!
Also, i have (thankfully) never had the horrible experience of being raped, but I believe I can tell u with all conviction, that after the deed finished, giving the man that just raped me my phone number would not be on my top 10 things to do after being raped list. (original post claims that is what happened)
So, you ask "what woman" wants tobe treated like a blow up doll? Ever heard the saying....if it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck.....
I feel this woman maybe had some fantasies to play out and then realized (as most of us do) that fantasies of this nature are usually better left in your head... they never go as good as what you think they will. So she lost interest and had to keep her "I am not a ditch pig" rep untarnished.... hmmm...what shall I do....I KNOW !!! I'm gonna play the rape card!!
One last thing...to the ladies...how many of you, in your life, have ever been in a sexual situation with a man where the man has said "stop" at some point during the act....for whatever reason..maybe someone is in the other room, he's gonna be late for work, he's on the phone with his mum, he has reached that "point of no return" stage,,,,whatever...
Now how many of you have actually stopped.... IMMEDIATELY....not I....sadly i cannot think of one time i have stopped when requested... not right away anyways...damn...happy to not be a man...i would be considered a serial rapist by this time! "Jill the Ripper"
LOL | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 4/30/2008 10:30:16 PM | "according to science"  what "science" lol, you're paranoid, why are you so threatened and scared of "women taking over the world? Ridiculous, and hugely amusing | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 6/25/2008 9:51:21 PM | According to some scientists, men will actually be eliminated from society all together with women being able to reproduce without them and all babies being born as female. This is the end result of extreme feminism that has taken hold of our society.
Those scientists are men. Men hold that power and can poison the system of female only reproduction. Plus the world would die out without men. Women are physically weak. I've seen 5'1 guys who barely work out knock out women 7 inches taller who have blackbelts. The weakest man is stronger than the strongest woman.
Anyways to all the men here who worry about this. There's an obvious solution to not having your rights taken away. RECORD EVERYTHING. HIDE CAMERAS AROUND THE HOUSE. ALWAYS CARRY A SMALL CAMERA WITH YOU.
And Zachariah_Ticer you are a manjina in the finest sense of the word. | |
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| Mr. Caps-Lock
Posted: 6/25/2008 9:54:02 PM |
Anyways to all the men here who worry about this. There's an obvious solution to not having your rights taken away. RECORD EVERYTHING. HIDE CAMERAS AROUND THE HOUSE. ALWAYS CARRY A SMALL CAMERA WITH YOU.
Oh yes that's an excellent solution. How about instead just don't have sex with strangers who might be crazy? And if you do, here's a hint. When they say ow, no, stop, don't, please get off me, maybe listen? | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/25/2008 10:10:23 PM | | morally. no and stop mean just that, shouldnt need a precident to say anything, doesnt really matter what it says,, no means no and stop means stop,, case closed. time involved after original consent to time saying no or stop has no bearing, | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/25/2008 11:21:09 PM | | If a woman says no or stop at any time it means NO! Dosn't make any difference whether you are about to get your jollies or not, if she changes her mind that is up to her. It is HER body and a real man will respect that. If you don't then it is leagally and morraly rape! | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 3:57:58 AM |
So this would allow women to have their orgasm and then say out just to piss you off?
People don't do that. And if they do, again, I say don't sleep with crazy people.
How the hell can you justify taking consent in the middle of intercourse.
At any point in the act if either party feels uncomfortable with something their partner has said or done, taking back consent is justified. Imagine for a moment things were getting a little wild, anything goes, and your girl said 'just a sec I'll be right back...close your eyes'...and then surprised you with a strap on with such force that you had no means of pushing her (or him I guess) off your back and wham you're sodomized. Can you imagine it then? Now imagine you are telling said partner "ouch get the heck off me with that thing" and she says "it doesn't hurt, I'm not hurting you....shhhh....I'm almost done...." hard for a man who is physically stronger than a woman to understand, I know, but that would be a good example of you feeling trapped. Probably not the best example, but it's about all I can come up with. | |
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