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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 5:28:19 AM | | He didn't jump on her without consent or start having sex without consent. I'm also pretty sure that having vaginal sex cannot be compared with anal sex as far as discomfort is concerned. These points make no sense. Also not all women are "weaker" than men. There are LOTS of women that are probably on par with me or stronger so that's a ridiculously poor excuse in a lot of situations. Not every guy looks like Andre the giant. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 6:27:35 AM | I do not understand why the first got any jail time at all.
Parent's are always threatening their daughters older boyfriend.So, if an 18 yr old guy has sex with a 15 (or 16, I forgot which was which) girl, he could be charged with rape.
But, if an 18 yr old girl has sex with a 15 yr old boy, he gets charged with rape?
Then, lets say the woman said "stop" she ment it, she was upset. And, lets pretend, as soon as the words left her mouth, he could have been 10 ft away if he wanted to. He continued for 5 seconds anyway. In that situation, she could claim rape, but for the kid to get THAT much prison time??? For 5 seconds? It doesn't sound like a violent crime, with a stranger being forced. It sounds like somebody changing their mind, and the other person possibly showing some bad judgment. Seems like an unfair punishment to me. He didn't force her while he finished up.
I say possibly because we weren't there. He could have not heard her, not been paying attention. etc.
The whole thing is not very clear, did she start crying and scream stop and start pushing him away. Or did she roll her eyes, and say "this isn't working. Stop" because in that case, I can very easily see the guy (especially a 15 yr old guy) thinking, "no, we can do this. just another try or two."
No means no, but...there is way to much gray in this case. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 6:43:25 AM |
And I suppose you think it's not childish for a woman to get you started then change her mind? Seems to me, you guys are too busy worrying about the woman's feelings, and ignoring your own.
And you wonder why you are single... | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 6:48:15 AM |
He didn't jump on her without consent or start having sex without consent. That was not my point, when I was addressing duke.
I'm also pretty sure that having vaginal sex cannot be compared with anal sex as far as discomfort is concerned. Since you don't have a vagina, you cannot speak to what levels of discomfort can be experienced therein.
These points make no sense. They're posted to provide a scenario, to the person I was addressing, as to when would be a plausible time to withdraw consent.
Also not all women are "weaker" than men. There are LOTS of women that are probably on par with me or stronger so that's a ridiculously poor excuse in a lot of situations. Not every guy looks like Andre the giant. And not all people, men or women, go into a sexual act thinking they're going to have to spar. You have your opinion, I have mine. Someone on the last page (a man I believe) totally disagreed and said the weakest man is still stronger than any female. It's all relative I suppose. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 8:36:43 AM | But, if an 18 yr old girl has sex with a 15 yr old boy, he gets charged with rape?
Exactly. She should have never put him in that situation. 15 is a very immature age especially for a guy.
I wouldn't be surprised if that guy gets parole after a while and ends up shooting her. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 3:58:49 PM |
Something is missing from the story that we aren't reading IMO.
^^^ What he said.
I don't think i honestly believe the original post, if that's all there is to it. There is no way we're getting the whole picture here. People tend to exaggerate and omit certain stuff to make it a juicier story.
If the guy got 15 years of jail, then there must be more to it...let alone the first guy getting anything at all...IF the first post is accurate. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/26/2008 10:48:14 PM |
i like to think of myself as a right on feminist... but in this instance i would say that this is a waste of court time and a travesty of justice... two lives wrecked for no good reason...
This case is a travesty. I seem to recall another similar case earlier this year where the judge held that a few seconds is reasonable for the message to get across and the man to withdraw. That I can agree with. I'll stop if asked, but if we're into it you might have to give me a couple seconds to register it and make with the stopping. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/27/2008 2:22:40 AM | Seafood,
There's no need to ponder whether the original post was suspect or tailored to make the story "juicy." I included links in the OP (and in follow-up posts) to articles reporting the case, as well as transcripts of the trial opinion, including the victim's own testimony and that of one of her assailants. Collectively, they should provide adequate fodder from which you can assemble the "whole" picture.  | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/27/2008 8:59:12 AM |
Q. Now when you told [appellant] if I say stop,
something like that, you have to stop. What did he do
after you spoke those words?
A. Well he got on top of me and he tried to put it in
and it hurt. So I said stop and that’s when he kept
pushing it in and I was pushing his knees to get off me.
Q. You were on your back and he was on top of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he stop pushing his penis into your vagina?
A. Not right away.
Q. About how long did he continue to put his penis into
your vagina?
A. About five or so seconds.
Q. And then what happened?
A. And that’s when he just got off me and that’s when
Mike got in the car. . . .
On first thrust she is in pain so she said stop. He keeps coming at her and she is pushing against him fighting to get him off. 5 seconds can feel like an eternity when you have no control of the situation and there is a man thrusting inside you against your will. Yeah, I could understand the conviction of rape.
But given these particular circumstances they should have pleaded him out to a lesser charge and given him minimal jail sentence (or just boatloads of community service even). What he did was clearly wrong. But it's not worth ruining his life over. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/27/2008 10:33:22 AM |
Seafood,
There's no need to ponder whether the original post was suspect or tailored to make the story "juicy." I included links in the OP (and in follow-up posts) to articles reporting the case, as well as transcripts of the trial opinion, including the victim's own testimony and that of one of her assailants. Collectively, they should provide adequate fodder from which you can assemble the "whole" picture.
Sorry OP, i just saw the links you are talking about. And it's wayyyy to long for me to read all of those....lol.
The bits i read seems to indicate a very screwed up case. From what i read, it's a he said/she said case. But there might be more to it in the parts i didn't read. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/27/2008 3:34:45 PM |
Wow I don't envy men in this day and age. I can't believe how the system will cater to mentally unstable people who make bad decisions then regret them, by coddling them and promoting the idea they were "raped". Not to mention the women that use this fact for their own reasons - ill will, clear their name/rep, etc [...]
I agree with your whole post; especially this part. | |
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| Is It Rape If She Consents and Changes Her Mind During the Act?
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:08:58 PM | On first thrust she is in pain so she said stop. He keeps coming at her and she is pushing against him fighting to get him off. 5 seconds can feel like an eternity when you have no control of the situation and there is a man thrusting inside you against your will. Yeah, I could understand the conviction of rape.
Interestingly enough, the defendant in this case states that he did not hear the woman say "stop." How might that affect your determination of whether or not rape occurred? That is, "If she consents and then withdraws her consent, but he doesn't hear her, is it rape?"
According to the court, the two parties tell substantially the same story of the sequence of the events, though they differ in some critical respects.
Like an earlier poster noted, the case sounds like a "he said/she said" -matter. I posted earlier the material substance of her testimony. I am posting below the material substance of his (from a different court document than that sourcing her statement).
Q. When you got in the car, what, if anything, did you
say or do?
A. I asked her if she was going to let me have sex with
her.
Q. What exactly did you say?
A. I said, “Are you going to let me hit that?”
Q. And what does that mean to you, “Can I hit that?”
A. Have sex.
Q. What, if anything, did she say?
A. She said yes, as long as I stop when she says to.
And then I said, “I’m not going to rape you.”
Q. Did you feel that was permission?
A. Yeah, I thought that that was permission.
Q. Why did you say “I don’t want to rape you”?
A. Just to, because she said, “Stop when I say to,” just
to tell her that. It’s kind of like to confirm the
permission.
Appellant took out a condom and put it on. Jewel laid down on
the back seat. Appellant placed himself between her legs and tried
to put his penis in. He testified that the following occurred:
Q. What did you do with your penis?
A. I tried to put it in.
Q. Do you know where it was touching or what happened to
it?
A. No. After I tried to put it in once, it wouldn’t go
in. I didn’t feel nothing there.
Q. What happened? What did she say or do?
A. And then she sat up. She was like, “It’s not going
to go in,” and that’s when, after she sat up and said
“It’s not going to go in,” that’s when I took off the
condom and I put it in my pocket and then knocked on the
window for Michael to come in.
Q. Who said, “It’s not going to go in?” You or her?
A. She did.
Q. When she sat up, what did that mean to you?
A. That meant stop.
Q. Did she say “Stop”?
A. No, she didn’t. She just sat up.
Q. And you took that to mean stop?
A. Yeah.
Q. When she sat up, did you try to put it in again?
A. No, I didn’t.
According to appellant, he stopped immediately and never
ejaculated when the complainant sat up.
According to appellant, after Mike drove Jewel’s car back to
McDonald’s, she gave appellant her telephone number and hugged Mike
as she got out of the car.
http://www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/cosa/2006/225s05.pdf
Clearly, the woman either: (1)told the defendant to "stop," and he took some five seconds or so to comply; (2)told the defendant to "stop," though he did not hear her, stopping only after she "sat up," effectively precluding his efforts to continue to try to penetrate her; or (3)never said "stop," leaving the defendant to conclude that she was effectively withdrawing consent by sitting up.
Is this rape? And, if so, what punishment might be appropriate (assuming you disagree with the 15-year sentence he received)?  | |
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