|
|
|
|
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 7:39:32 AM |
I cannot count how many times representatives of the anti-war movement have told me that if you kill bin Laden a hundred will spring up in his place. And now you're suggesting that his capture would magically end the thread of Islamic fundamentalism?
No. I'm suggesting that assuming what we were told is true, and we had then concentrated our efforts on actually fighting al Qaeda instead of invading Iraq, we could perhaps have made a stronger statement about our commitment to stemming terror attacks. Nothing is going to end Islamic fundamentalism. Even you must realize that.
I find that idea to be abhorrent. Simply level Afghanistan to the ground?
Our country was attacked, presumably by Osama bin Laden, who was being sheltered by the Afghan government. We asked nicely that they hand him over and they refused. I believe that had hunting down those responsible actually been the objective of the war, then yes, we should have done it by any means necessary. You find that to be abhorrent? Do you really think you can have a war without death and destruction? Grow up. If you are going to support war at least be realistic about it. War is not 30 second news reports or precision strikes where only the bad guys are killed. War is ugly and bloody and should only be undertaken as a last resort. But when you do decide to enter a war, you can't fight fair and you can't fight with politics. You have to fight to win. Anything less and you end up with exactly what we have now.
Thankfully the countries who intervened chose the nobler route, removing the Taliban and helping Afghanistan to become a better place to live.
That isn't our responsibility nor was it our objective. And while it might soothe your conscience to believe that after we destroy a nation we can claim we have made it a better place, I hardly think it was particularly noble to replace the Taliban (who, incidentally, we funded when it served our purpose) with the equally oppressive Northern Alliance. We replaced one fundamentalist regime with another, that's all. Let's not pretend we had altruistic reasons for attacking either Afghanistan or Iraq.
My dear, you seem to be under the false impression that Afghanistan is the only source of our problems.
Your condescension aside, I will answer that by saying that I believe I noted in a previous post that a main source of "our problems" stems from our ally Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is rooted in Saudi Arabia and it is Saudi Arabia who funds the madrassas that these future terrorists attend. But God forbid we actually do anything about that.
I agree completely with you when you say we should show the world that there is a point beyond which the US will tolerate being bullied or bluffed
Yeah, which was sort of my point when I said if our true objective was to find and punish those responsible for 9/11 then we should have done just that (hint: they weren't in Iraq.)
I believe we did just that by removing Saddam Hussein once and for all.
Let's say this together, shall we? Saddam Hussein and Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the events of September 11, 2001. He was not threatening the United States or anyone else outside his borders. He was bluffing about his capabilities to keep his enemies in the region at bay. Wasn't that why we supported him to begin with? Because he kept Iran in check?
Afghanistan was sheltering bin Laden, but rather than achieve the stated objective, Bush concentrated his efforts on Iraq which was not involved. Saudi Arabia is one of the main financial supporters of Islamic extremism and Pakistan has hundreds of radical madrassas, but they are our trusted allies in the Middle East.
Please note that each time I make reference to this war on terror, I use phrases such as "if that were indeed our objective." It should have been, but it isn't and wasn't. Ever.
The day after the 9/11 attacks Rumsfeld was pressuring the CIA and other advisors to link it to Iraq even after being told Iraq wasn't involved. PNAC had this planned since 1997 and their mission statement is a road map of exactly what is going on now. Regime change in Iraq, fighting multiple, simultaneous wars, maintaining nuclear superiority by making sure no one else has nuclear technology, developing and deploying global missile defense systems and generally promoting American dominance over the world. Members of PNAC include Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Scooter Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and Richard Armitage.
It is not I who is laboring under false impressions. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:50:59 AM |
Nothing is going to end Islamic fundamentalism. Even you must realize that.
Perhaps you should make an effort and find out what their grievances with the West are before making statements such as the above.
All they want is really simple but the West refuses and maintains its position regardless of cost, both human and financial. Instead the planet has to live with war mongering and rampaging war machines that generate huge profits for the few and sorrow for the many.
On a nicer note, everything else that you've said makes sense and is probably correct. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:29:55 AM |
Perhaps you should make an effort and find out what their grievances with the West are before making statements such as the above.
Easy there, lol... I'm fully aware of why they don't like us, and it has nothing to do with our freedoms and everything to do with our foreign policy. What I meant by Islamic fundamentalism not ending is simply that it is their culture and their religion and I don't see that changing any time soon.
As far as them ending their attacks on the West, that isn't going to happen until we change our policy toward them, which I also don't see happening anytime soon. Since nothing is going to change, there is no way conventional warfare is going to end the cycle of violence. You can't wage war on a concept. I just didn't feel like arguing that with ol' Harve there, who I am sure could find many sources stating that we are right and they are wrong, and that they only attack us because they view us as infidels. In his world, it has nothing to do with us meddling behind the scenes all these years. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:56:29 AM | I BEEN DOING A RESERCH FOR MANY YEARS "ABOUT THIS STUFF AND MORE. "AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO SOMEONE FACE TO FACE REGARDING THESE ISSUES? AND IF YOU GET IN TOUCH WITH ME I WILL TALK TO YOU YOU FURTHER IN DETALS . I LIVE IN NJ. WRITE BACK,
idora@comcast.net
regards. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:03:36 AM | I BEEN DOING A RESERCH FOR MANY YEARS "ABOUT THIS STUFF AND MORE. "AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO SOMEONE FACE TO FACE REGARDING THESE ISSUES?
" IF YOU GET IN TOUCH WITH ME, I WILL THEN TALK TO YOU IN FURTHER DETALS . I LIVE IN NJ. WRITE BACK,
regards. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:10:48 AM | A RESERCH OF MANY YEARS IS NEEDED OUT THERE.... "ALL ABOUT THIS STUFF AND MORE, MUCH MORE. "AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO SOMEONE IN ATHORITY, FACE TO FACE REGARDING THESE ISSUES?
" GET IN TOUCH WITH ME, AND I WILL THEN TALK WITH YOU IN FURTHER DETALS . WRITE BACK,
regards. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:33:46 AM | | Personally, the War against Saddam and his Regime was over back in 2003, what I see now is not actually "War" but rather stabilization of hostilities between religious groups, militias and terrorists. Schools and medical clinics are rarely established/produced during "war time" the Military has done this and more. People complain about the "war" lasting so long well the War is past we've been in the long expensive process of stabilizing specific areas of Iraq and chasing out Al Qaeda. So I disagree with the Administration when they continue to call this a "War in Iraq" the major goal was to flush out Saddam and his Regime, that was accomplished back in 2003. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 11:52:10 AM |
Easy there, lol... I'm fully aware of why they don't like us, and it has nothing to do with our freedoms and everything to do with our foreign policy.
Why do you think that is so hard to address? You and I know what the problem is and we're just plain ordinary people so there must be million's out there that know as well. Yet we continue the bloodshed there, which is also exported around the globe. Why not just address the issues and put them to bed, or is that as humans we need a war to be happening all the time to satisfy some kind of ancient neanderthalic blood lust. After all there wasn't much to do for our militaries and spook agencies after the Cold War ended so an enemy had to be found. Sigh.....who's next after the Muslims, China?
ps....sounds like there perfect little town and life style you got there! Can I stay too? | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 12:16:16 PM | Do warmongers understand that the work of the soldiers, the citizens (people) who are offering their lives and service to and for people, for freedom, is being deflected from purpose to serve corporate interests. People are also paying corporate armies to do what? Promote fiatism and fascism, theft and murder?
Hellaburton has more security and infrastructure in place in Iraq then the people have so as to protect them against those who kill them at their leisure with pleasure I might add.
To many people applaud corps(e) who are in business to debase life as well as our purpose and falsely proclaim they are with us when their work/agenda, always hidden or oppressed, is to reap profit at the expense of all mankind.
I can not understand you people who shill for the destruction of nations and the killing of innocents because of manufactured fears. The corps(e) do nothing but replace nature at natures expense for sake of want for control of an illusion that binds all mankind to lies as truth, injustice as justice, replicated as better then nature and actors as more then human and lastly, ego and opinion being worth more then facts.
The sad truth is when fact is introduce that goes against the opinion that is worshiped, you materialistic people then work to discredit rather then investigate and learn truth, you are forever contradicting yourselves and oh so often, the fuel that drives you, hate of truth, shows and you attack people, using rhetoric and insult against truth, fact.
Let me ask the warmongers, "Have you read War is a Racket by Marine General Butler?"
If not, read it online, it is free, he gave people truth, what do say we should do about it?
Or are you one who says Corps(e) and employees have the best interest of people at heart?
All the war shills do is to the detriment of people and for the benefit of corps(e)/fascists.
Tell me and others, tell us, all you who shill to kill, who provide links and information from the past and present to justify your stance that spiritual people in far away lands, living in tents, farmers and other innocents who struggle to survive, who ultimately could careless if idiots worship material and trade their life and soul for crap and being amused, are conspiring to kill us all and that those without air force and navy pose a greater threat then those who have and have used nuclear weapons and who have unleashed acts of aggression, criminal actions against the weak and the nations where strife was created, sustained and escalated by employees, so as to control what lies under the ground and oppress economies within nations, stopping people from generating true wealth.
If you are so sure of that which arrives from corps(e) own media services, tell us all what you think of General Butler and the fascist coup the corps(e) were planning when WWII was orchestrated by employees of corporations.
Also, would you not heed his warnings and the warnings of D W Eisenhower as well as the words JFK spoke to the media corps(e) employees or peons for fiat news providers, those who info the people and promote materialism via advertising?
You seem so selective in what you present to others and the information is always so supportive of materialism and obviously corporatism (softer form of fascism).
So do tell, are you pro-war just ignorant of General Butler and true history related to corporatism in the US or is that you support, in theory, corporatism and the side that wished to enslave the public, people (not the employees of and within it) and likely kill the president and erase the constitution turning the nation into a socialist state that promoted fiatism, with the intent to further debase life within the nation and throughout the world?
Which is it and why, because people who you are trying to convince to have fear of other people, need to understand your motivation, every story has two sides, what is yours in regards to the undeniable coup that was stopped?
Anyway, please do tell why you will not heed the warnings of a highly decorated General, who was a major cog in the war machine you worship and promote.
Is it that your knowledge of the events provided by those who attempted the coup negates the lesson and truth that come forth or is that you feel since he turned on corporatism, he was a traitor to your cause and mindset, he choose to live with a spirit and not accept the bribes, his estate upon his death, a national hero, was around $2k.
Is it not funny how those who supported corporatism in the depression era, you know like Prescott Bush (GWB Jr grandfather), he made millions of dollars during the depression, what did he do?
Oh yeah, he traded with the enemy, he even got his money back after the investigations were made as a result of the coup that General Butler foiled. I guess General Butler's heroic deeds were not as essential to the corporate world as was Prescott and his acts of treason.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q8OtmwmxWP4
Here is some info fascists do not print in their manipulation machines.
Anyway, all you war mongering people, please take a minute, read War is a Racket, even watch this video series.
pt 1 http://youtube.com/watch?v=dlC5IiKikJ0
pt 2 http://youtube.com/watch?v=TiQh1_rYw9w
pt 3 http://youtube.com/watch?v=g0xsU_0LKco
Likely most of the fascists will ignore this post, some of them may choose to insult me, even insult the decorated hero and others will create a distraction and commence to echo post, work with another fascist to move the spirit away from truth and learning about the true nature of corporatism.
You shills who seem to be trying to warn us of all the dangers facing mankind, why not look at what those you rep and promote have in their closet.
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
I decided to save you the search, you can read "his story" at the link above.
Please provide us with your opinion on this man, a soldier of the people, of the republic.
I guess when an employee of fascists, either knowingly or unknowingly working for the interests of soulless corps(e), learns truth and tries to warn the people, like you war shills, who tell us people are to be feared not corps(e), he falls out of favor with fascists and the peons for war.
So realize, if you are truly with people and trying to help them to know who the enemy is, you need to clarify what your ego, I mean perspective of the events that came to light in the 20's thru the 40's and which shows the same work was going on in 1898 and likely before, this is when General Butler was brought into the war machine. And by the way, he was a Quaker, not Zionist Quaker or some other corporate religion follower.
If you still claim people have more to fear from people rather then corporations, you truly are the nutters of the world and not to be considered people nor citizens especially if after reviewing truth, you still side with corps(e) over people.
I truly wish to hear what Neocon artists think of the General, the hero, a champion of the constitution, defender of the people.
I am sure they truly love this man and are forever grateful for his work in delaying the agenda of globalization, one world government.
He must be the toast at the celebrations the Neocons throw when they can trick the people into supporting their crimes against mankind and the earth.
Let's hear back from the fiat peanut gallery, tell us, what do say about the work of General Butler and if we should not heed his warnings to hold corporate in check as they were trying to overlord all people and nature. I guess you believe the events that are essentially stricken from the corporate educational system were not worthy of learning as corporate has always had the best interest of man and nature at heart.
It would also be suggested to ask other war drum beaters who are moved by opinion and assumption to start war, ask them what they think about the good General and the events of the fascist coup during the last depression which was orchestrated by, you guessed it, corporate.
Oh, one other thing, is being amused and entertained more important that planting food? You know, with food shortages coming and with all the love you neocon artists have for people, so much so that a few bad apples you trained went AWOL from the corporate plan and are now are a greater threat to the world then corporate states that have hundreds of nuclear bombs.
Your work and efforts are for material and fiat living, face it, when the cost of food goes through the roof and you and your kind, telling people to buy amusement, go into debt, don;t plant food, will show you all as the most ignorant of all beings.
Truthfully, do you think that stuff that can not feed us or provide essentials such as shelter is more valuable? Do you think the charade you play and are more then neck deep in will subside and material and fiat living will continue to be the want of all mankind?
The depression to come is more then all seem to realize. What happened and was to transpire, if general Butler did not turn on the traitors of the people and state, is about to happen, sooner then many care to admit.
Start investing in food, water and people, not corps(e), they wish you to exchange what is real for what is fake. I truly pity the fools who are abetting corporatism and fiatism by simply not researching fact and accepting opinion over that which is undeniable.
 | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 4:41:19 PM |
Perhaps you should make an effort and find out what their grievances with the West are before making statements such as the above.
To REALLY understand the forces behind all this, you have to (and there's no excuse why you shouldn't) research two men, and their direct impact on today's world, through their philosophies : Sayyid Qutb, and Leo Stauss.
Start here, with the BBC documentary "The Power Of Nightmares".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
Ironically, both ideologies are based on essentially the same basic premises, a return to a mythical time that never truly existed as they saw it.
After studying those two, place them against ongoing impact of past geopolitical decision that directly lead to these two ideologies facing off against one another. Add to that the growing poverty of many areas in the Middle East, and the push for resources from the West and how that contributed to altering societies there from their natural path.
Do that , and you will be in a much better position to understand the dynamics that drive all of these things in our modern world , and how politicians and leaders on all sides have manipulated that to their own ends - and control over their populations.
It's a bit of work, but you'll be far better able to see through the hype and spin. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:04:14 PM |
Do warmongers understand that the work of the soldiers, the citizens (people) who are offering their lives and service to and for people, for freedom, is being deflected from purpose to serve corporate interests. People are also paying corporate armies to do what? Promote fiatism and fascism, theft and murder?
I don't know.. do you think the Anti-War people understand that someone had to step up and remove SH and his regime so that Iraq could be liberated for the greater good of the Middle East? This is not about hating corporations or promoting fascism it's about "Freedom" enabling human beings to experience the same freedoms that we have, that my friend, is not fasicism.
You're allowing yourself to take a few bad examples from corporate armies to form a very narrow opinion. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/28/2008 10:12:08 PM |
Start here, with the BBC documentary "The Power Of Nightmares".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
Wasn't this also the film that proved that their was no alqeada in the first place? Just a made up terror organization to dupe the american people into believing that they were actually fighting against something ?
Did you know that alqeada loosely translates " The Toilet ?" why would an organization that wants to sound scary name themselves that in the first place ? how about "the great menace!" yeah that we be a good villain name for the comic book stories.
You would think that the CIA would have thought up a better name toback this lie? I know how about Albundy ? | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/29/2008 8:13:55 AM |
Wasn't this also the film that proved that their was no alqeada in the first place? Just a made up terror organization to dupe the american people into believing that they were actually fighting against something ?
Did you know that alqeada loosely translates " The Toilet ?" why would an organization that wants to sound scary name themselves that in the first place ? how about "the great menace!" yeah that we be a good villain name for the comic book stories.
Source?
The name of the organization comes from the Arabic noun qā'idah, which means foundation or basis and can also refer to a military base. The initial al- is the Arabic definite article the, hence the base.
If they (whoever the hell you think THEY ARE) are making up a terror organization then they pretty much DUPED the world.
Listed as Terror Organization by;
Al-Qaeda has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United Nations Security Council, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General, the Commission of the European Communities of the European Union, the United States Department of State, the Australian Government, Public Safety Canada,the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs,Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook, South Korean Foreign Ministry,the Dutch Military Intelligence and Security Service, the United Kingdom Home Office, Pakistan, Russia,the Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs, and the Swiss Government
Stay on topic. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/29/2008 9:37:05 AM | | glamour - you can't impose democracy, otherwise its called a dictatorship. Don't forget that we GB senior told the shia if they started a revolt we would help out. They started, and we let them get slaughtered. You think they are going to trust us now? | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/29/2008 10:54:51 AM | You're allowing yourself to take a few bad examples from corporate armies to form a very narrow opinion.
You mean like, taking the example of a few bad apples within a nation or a religous sect and then killing many innocent people for sake of a few bad apples?
Tell me, how many rogue Al CIA'Da are you war mongers chasing and ultimately killing and displacing multitudes of innocent people from their home, their property, in "their" nation. Who is responsible for training these rogue "people" who are so dangerous to us that you have to kill innocent people. I thought you say that a few bad corps(e) does not mean we should change how business is conducted? You seem as to be a protectionist, guarding corporations, even the bad ones, but innocent people can die or lose their family and property because of a few bad apples within the population, oh that you and your kind trained.
In truth, your words say we should disseminate the corporations that are profiteering and what does it matter if a few and many innocent corporations are killed, wiped out, forfeit their wealth and potential because we need to go after a few.
Anyway, I am still waiting to hear from all you pro-war people about your thoughts about General Butler and his findings regarding the scam which is a wealth transfer machine known as war.
Many "people" want truth and need to understand more about those who are trying so hard to sell war. Why can the pro-war people provide an opinion on General Butler and the fascist coup. You worry and fear over a few, well their are more then a few corporations that had and still have desire and design to reap gain at the lose of people.
Please tell us about your views on the information a war leader gave to the people whom he represented. Come on, don't be shy, you are people, a citizen like all of us with the exception that wish others to go and kill people and take over nations and oppress people for the gain of corporations.
We know from his reporting to those who were not with corps(e) designing the coup, whom the coups(e) wished to replace or remove, hey they even had designs on killing the president. Is that not worthy of discourse? Are those innocent people that are murdered when you go after the few, are they not important?
I thought you war people were in war for the sake of people? This is what you convey.
So do tell, give us your views on General Butler and the Corporate Coup that he was within from 1898 until the mid 40's and he carried on with his service to people.
Like I said, he died broke, a highly decorated leader of the machine that you tout as being necessary to wipe out a few while also, killing innocent people, destroying land and taxing the people you proclaim to be safeguarding, so as you and your kind can develop more heinous ways to murder and perform shook and awe with no concern for life, limb or nature.
ps. T/Y oneblend! I had no idea they could limit members to a few posts a day who are trying to meet like minded people who share the same ideals and morals. It is hard when they do not allow you to speak and show yourself as a person who loves people and life over corp executives and destruction.
One day soon I'll have to review the # of posts a day the pro-war people are getting in comparison to those who post in support of peace and people. I am sure the findings will show bias and manipulation but that is life and is not likely the policy of the site owner, he is a person/not a corp as he states/advertises and employees are supposed to be unbiased volunteer moderators. I try to be here and stay within the site rules, I will need to find out why so many pro-people are experiencing debased participation, inflation may be to blame, less for more. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/29/2008 2:56:02 PM |
Many "people" want truth and need to understand more about those who are trying so hard to sell war. Why can the pro-war people provide an opinion on General Butler and the fascist coup. You worry and fear over a few, well their are more then a few corporations that had and still have desire and design to reap gain at the lose of people.
Excuse me.. no one is selling War here.. most people that I know who understand the big picture concerning the Middle East and the importance of a stable Iraq. Corporations are involved in that stabilization, there will always be those few who are in it for profit, that's nothing new and it wasn't invented in 2003 just for Iraq.
I thought you war people were in war for the sake of people? This is what you convey. Of course it's for the people, a stabilized Democratic Iraq will be an asset to the Middle East and to the World.. a huge task and not for the weak or those who seek immediate results.
So do tell, give us your views on General Butler and the Corporate Coup that he was within from 1898 until the mid 40's and he carried on with his service to people. I don't know why Butler's story wasn't given the press that he wanted back in the day I doubt you'll find much interest in it today. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/29/2008 3:13:35 PM |
Of course it's for the people, a stabilized Democratic Iraq will be an asset to the Middle East and to the World.. a huge task and not for the weak or those who seek immediate results.
Nor a task for those who have actually taken the time to look into the situation on the ground in Iraq.
A stabilized democratic Iraq is a myth.
Inside your own country, with a long history of democracy, there is great division today. Poverty is increasing, hope is being lost.
Compared to Iraq ?
You are living large.
There, in a country which has the second largest oil fields in the world, there is a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions.
Poverty,. lack of education, death and destruction tower over the land.
This is the stage on which this drama is being played out. Add to this a deep historical division between two religious groups , and sectarian violence which continues to this day - after more than five years of "freedom".
A stabilized democratic Iraq ?
With those forces all aligned against it, and roughly zero progress on the part of Iraq's government at working towards dealing with these base issues, that's about as likely as any of us winning the lottery today.
Iraq's future cannot be decided by Americans. It never was, isn't now, and never will be. It's out of your hands, and there's nothing you can do to change that.
The Iraqi government has proven, time and time again, to not be able to carry that load that has been placed on it's back. The only thing American policy can do is to delay the inevitable, while bleeding the nation, and it's military, dry.
This isn't due to a lack of effort by the troops on the ground, who have done a magnificent job while being badly lead by their senior officers and this administration. They share no blame in this reality, and have done their job well.
People like CV are telling you the truth of the current situation, as much as you don't want to accept it.
This isn't defeatism, it's realism. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 1:45:35 AM | I am sorry that no-one appears to want to talk about peace and ending this current slaughter. As an Englishman who is proud to stand by your side in this struggle I would like to make the following observations.
a) 9/11 signalled a wake up call to the American people. The attacks were against the World Trade Centre and therefore an attack on your wealth creation system. The other attacks were against your Pentagon and therefore against your war machine. The failed attack was against your White House(?) and therefore against your government. Each of these institutions has been seen by others around the world, and it would seem at home too now, as forces that do little good in the world. You have been awakened but for some strange reason you want to argue between yourselves as to who’s fault it all is. At this point it is more important to try to end it.
b) The ‘terrorists’ do seem to have a much better game plan that we do. They are gaining support from people around the world who are coming to fight for their cause both at home and internationally. The ‘terrorist’ who carried out the successful attacks and the more recent failed ones here in the UK were fully fledged British citizens, highly educated family men who had previously borne little or no malice to the communities they lived in. They were school teachers and doctors. Many of those fighting against our sons and daughters went to school with them. How do you intend to ever stop this?
c) If the attacks had been against the American or British people and an attempt to wipe us out and destroy our societies then they could have picked much better targets and killed far more people than they did. Maybe there is a message in that for you. Is it possible that the targets are chosen for their symbolism?. Maybe they tell you what you need to hear in the suicide videos they leave behind for you to listen too. They are telling you what their terms of negotiation for peace might be. I do find it very strange that no such videos exist for the 9/11 attackers. The absence of these videos is the most puzzling aspect of this attack to me. They ALWAYS make one. It’s part of the process they go through.
d) Watching and listening to the American people as I do in these forums fills my heart with some hope. The greatest nation on earth has been stirred into action and now most Americans and British have a much greater understanding of the problems beyond our shores and the roles we have both played in the problems of the Middle East and other places. We made most of these problems and we should sort them out. We will never achieve that at the point of a gun. Here in the UK we had 25 years of such ‘terrorism’ mostly funded by our great friends America. I don’t think we have 25 years to decide to get around the negotiating table with this war. We need to act now and start discussing peace.
e) Those of you who would have us believe that the American and British, although you never seem to include our role in your conspiracies, are the real criminals forget certain facts. Our leaders were elected by millions of good, free and intelligent people through a democratic process. I can assure you that Tony Blair and the British people did not go into Iraq or Afganistan for oil. Full stop. No one over here is saying that about our leaders. We might strongly disagree with them but we don’t accuse them of that. Your view point is just another conspiracy theory leading us a dead end. If what you say is true then we are only slaves without control or say in what our governments do. Our governments are not controlled by some invisible Illuminati nor are they motivated by desire for money or power. They already have that in abundance. They are fighting to protect the freedoms that you and I enjoy and trying to help others to have the same. You have to believe that or you condemn us all to slavery for years to come. If you are unhappy with your leaders, change them, but try to change them for someone who talks in terms of peace and not war.
f) If Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair are as you say, impeach them, simple as. Funny how the rest of the world leaders aren’t saying what you say and getting United Nation sanctions against them. Not everyone in the world is afraid of that tyrant you portray Mr. Bush et al as. Millions upon millions of free people elected those leaders around the world. They would tell you if your leaders were criminals. If I was a ‘terrorist’ I would employ people to say the things you say to undermine the support at home for our government and forces. If you insist that the war is illegal and wrong and just for profit, then you have our children murdered for nothing. That doesn’t happen. Our sons and daughters are fighting side by side with yours. Their blood mixes in the sand with the blood from your children. Please try to understand that you are doing what Lord Haw Haw did in the 30’s. Now is the time for unity and standing together. Have you inquest after the war is over. For now you should turn your undoubted intelligence and intellect towards to path to peace.
Turn your eyes outwards to the world and stop being so self important and self interested. There is a great danger beyond your shores and you should address that problem first. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 5:51:42 AM |
glamour - you can't impose democracy, otherwise its called a dictatorship. Don't forget that we GB senior told the shia if they started a revolt we would help out. They started, and we let them get slaughtered. You think they are going to trust us now?
Crash, No, dictatorship was what Saddam had and Republicans and Democrats (including Bill Clinton) alike for decades had said that Iraq needed to have a Democracy.. so now the Iraqi's can finally vote, imagine that! No one said it would be easy.. I think history will show that GWB and Tony Blair did what others only talked about or imagined. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 5:55:50 AM |
Turn your eyes outwards to the world and stop being so self important and self interested. There is a great danger beyond your shores and you should address that problem first.
There is an even greater danger within your shores, and it must be addressed before the other is, or the solution will never be arrived at.
If your nation is indeed at war with a great shadow of evil falling across the globe, then it is the patriotic duty of the factories and industries associated with it to work for minimal profit. War profiteering used to be a crime, now it's a national pastime.
This was the way that other war, so often compared to this one, WW2 was fought. The more profit they make, means less can be done with the money given to them. Like during WW 2, close attention must be paid to reducing the profit of war.
If war is more profitable than peace to the aristocracy and corporations that wield power over the government , then they will never be an end to war. Unless and until this issue is addressed, unless this enemy within is faced, then your children, and their children's children, will fight this never ending battle until it is.
Until those black cars with military personnel start pulling up to the mansions in America, into those gated communities of the aristocracy, to announce the deaths of their sons and daughters to grieving parents - then war will continue to be fought.
Those who profit most, invest the least.
That load is borne by others, and so the cycle continues.
If this great battle is so important, than it's costs must be carried by all segments of society - and not just by the few. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 5:58:11 AM |
I am sorry that no-one appears to want to talk about peace and ending this current slaughter.
The US Military and its Allies are trying to create Peace in Iraq, we are seeing the aftermath of Iraqi's who lived under a dictatorship who are now transitioning to a Democratic state. If you want to talk about "peace" it should be directed to the militias, snipers and terrorists in Iraq who are hindering the peace process in Iraq. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 6:15:35 AM |
Poverty,. lack of education, death and destruction tower over the land.
That is what Saddam wanted, poverty, lack of education, death and destruction for most of his people, while he lived lavishly in palaces. Iraq is a very rich country but Saddam didn't share the wealth of the resources with his people. The US along with coalition forces have rebuilt schools and medical clinics for the people of Iraq, much better than what Saddam offered. We're inundated on a daily basis with the hostilities in Iraq by the press because "bad news sells" which is why we don't see more emphasis on the positive reconstruction of Iraq. Many of us are not given the opportunity to see the long hard work that the US Military and coalition forces have been doing since 2004 and much of that reconstruction being done while protecting the Iraqi people from the individuals who do not want peace and a successful Iraq. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 6:27:33 AM | eye8one2, great post, thank you.
It's a little disturbing that so many people have the wish to "level" whole countries and murder millions and tens of millions of people, as if countries were just names like Iraq and Iran and Afganistan, not full of people, 99% of whom have nothing to do with any of the conflict.
Very sad. So many armchair mass murderers these days.
And the thing is, we spend a whopping amount of money and have such a huge military establishment ......... were like the elephant in mortal fear of the mouse. With all the missles and tanks and jets and nukes, 18 guys with very low tech boxcutters walked into America on 911 and nobody did a thing to stop them, except perhaps some of the passengers on one of those planes. NONE of this stuff is really providing us with any real defense, thats pretty obvious. Although state troopers patrolling airports with guard dogs give just a little sense of security.........not much, though, just a nice show.
And the elephant is rampaging. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 6:37:16 AM |
That is what Saddam wanted, poverty, lack of education, death and destruction for most of his people, while he lived lavishly in palaces. Iraq is a very rich country but Saddam didn't share the wealth of the resources with his people. The US along with coalition forces have rebuilt schools and medical clinics for the people of Iraq, much better than what Saddam offered.
Not so long ago, Iraq was a jewel in the Middle East. It had high levels of education, a secular government, good health care, and women dressed in common Western clothes.
SOCIAL WELFARE AND CHANGE PROGRAMS
Before the Persian Gulf War, welfare benefits such as Social Security, pensions for retirees and disabled people, and money for maternity and sick leaves were available. Currently the only known welfare programs are food distribution and medical aid food. Some nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) have been involved, but unless the Iraqi government can direct NGO operations, they are not permitted to function.
Higher Education. Prior to the Persian Gulf War higher education was greatly prized, and the state used to pay for all of it, even literacy classes for adults. In the 1980s the literacy rate was about 80 percent, and there were several plans to build new universities and expand existing ones. During the Iran-Iraq War the government refused to recruit or draft university students, claiming that they would ensure the future of Iraq. However, the situation has gravely changed since the Persian Gulf War. No current literacy statistic is available, but in 1995 the rate was estimated to be 42 percent, a sharp drop from the previous decade. Also, there is no indication that the universities were ever expanded. Fewer women than men receive the highest levels of education.
In the 1980s Iraq was extremely advanced in health care, but lack of resources and education has compromised medical advancement, and in fact has caused it to regress. Doctors who could once cure many diseases through medicine or surgery are no longer able to do so due for lack of resources. Because Iraq was so advanced in medical expertise in the past, there was little reliance on traditional medicine. The current situation is disheartening for older physicians, because they are not able to do medical procedures that they have the capability to perform, and young physicians are no longer educated in the available techniques that older physicians know. The health care situation is rapidly deteriorating, and once-controlled diseases such as malnutrition, diarrhea, typhoid fever, measles, chicken pox, and cholera are reappearing in great numbers; in addition, there is a large increase in diseases such as leukemia and other cancers.
http://www.everyculture.com/Ge-It/Iraq.html
Compared to almost any other Arab nation, this was paradise.
This is what Iraqis remember today. The great irony is that democracy offers them far less than what a dictator once did. Once Iraq was used by the USA for it's own self-interests, as a counterweight to Iran, this situation started to change.
The Iran-Iraq war, and it's debt, began the slide towards where Iraq finds itself today. Iraq paid a heavy cost doing the bidding of Americans. The Gulf War, and the sanctions that followed it, finished it off.
The US Ambassador at the time, when advised that tension was rising towards Kuwait, told Saddam that the US would not interfere.
"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."
April Glaspie
former U.S. ambassador to Iraq 1980 - 1988
Statement from meeting with Saddam Hussein and his Deputy Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz,
July 25, 1990
We're inundated on a daily basis with the hostilities in Iraq by the press because "bad news sells" which is why we don't see more emphasis on the positive reconstruction of Iraq
That's because you haven't been able to hear, in the US media, the grave humanitarian disaster that's befallen Iraq.
The four horsemen ride there now....
Research that, if you think Americans only hear bad news. | |
|
| If your here to talk about Iraq, look here first.
Posted: 4/30/2008 6:48:11 AM | Montreal_Guy,
I totally agree. In my earlier posts I started to make suggestions to address some of the issues and concerns people have voiced. I suggested we made the armaments industry a 'not for profit' business. Make them reinvest all their profit back into rebuilding the places we have destryed. Alternatively you could nationalize you armaments companies and then you could either use the profits for good or sell your weapons at cost and make no profit.
If you were really forward thinking you might also ask why have a armaments business at all. America and Great britian are two of the main players in the world arms business exporting death and destruction around the globe. So close them down. We don't 'need' them, do we?
glamourgirl6,
I can only talk to those I am able too. My written words are to everyone who reads them whatever they believe or don't believe.
My brother has been out there twice now and served in Bosnia and other conflicts. I pray he not only comes home safe and well, but I hope he comes home not having had to hurt anyone. I just want to stop the war.
If it gives you any peace of mind may I tell you that I do say the same to the people you now see as your 'enemy'. I grew up in a town called Burnley in Lancashire. I am proud to say that we have a large Pakistani / Muslim community here. Amazing people who contribute so much to making my home town an amazing place to live. I can greet them in their own language and exchange simple pleasantries. I have even been inside a mosque. Some of the people I went to school with and those my son grew up calling his friends are now talking in the same 'no surrender' terms we heard from the IRA for 25 years.
The leading clerical and political leaders voices within their communities are speaking uniformly against Jihad and the 'war' and trying to calm those who are subjected to the same evil war propaganda that we are. I can tell you from first hand that the 'terrorist' propaganda machine is very very slick and well run. You should log onto some of it and watch. Better than satchi & satchi.
I just don't hear those calming voices in here or elsewhere. Only talk of who to blame and whats coming next, war with Iran possibly. Might even see some tactical nukes used. The voices I hear in here all talk like a people at war. You need to start talking like a people at peace or this will go on for generations.
The message of evil the 'enemy' are being subjected to is a very strong and powerful one. They are angry with the United States of America and Britain. My friends tell me that we were quick to go to the UN to try and justify the war but refuse now to use them for peace and point to UN violations from us and Israel. They think that America and the UK are in Iraq for the oil and for Israel. They tell me all the things that you keep telling each other in here and elsewhere and to them it is what 'proves' we are the criminals because thats what we think we are too. They don't think we're the 'good guys'. They think we are the baddies, and so do we it seems.
So I do try to tell them but I need more people to help because I'm not winning. We need to start negotiating for peace now or there are a lot more people going to die. | |
|
|
| Page 5 of 6
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
|
Home
login 
