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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/9/2008 10:21:10 PM | Ad for Mithras and Attis, coincidence doesn't make fact.  romanticoptimist
true it doesnt but you have to be able to see the connection...not saying anything against the teachings of christ..i respect some of them..i believe in the whole love thy fellow man thing but...i just cant bring myself to believe in christianity....much to far-fetched plus with the corruption wrought by the clergy (which has been a problem in all organized religions) i just find them all to be laughable | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/10/2008 6:55:48 AM | PedronNial:
my only question is if christianity is decended from judeism then why do christians not celebrate Hanukkah why was that abandoned cause they all agree up to the whole christ thing...but then christ was a jew so he celebrated it im sure
Simple: religious holidays and rituals are generally matters of custom, not matters of doctrine or faith. Hanukkah celebrates an event that is significant to the Jewish people (the dedication of the Second Temple) but not so much to Gentile Christians. However, I'm sure that many Hebrew Christians do celebrate Hanukkah.
However, many of the Jewish holidays have Christian counterparts that are related. I believe there are many more "similarities" between Hanukkah and Christmas (the traditional observance of Christmas as an eight-day octave preceded by Advent, not the commercialized/Americanized Christmas) than there are between Christmas and Saturnalia. So, Hanukkah is not necessarily abandoned. It was simply never part of the Gentile Christian tradition, nor should it have to be. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/10/2008 9:27:37 AM |
I'm stumped beyond words (almost). Every time I ask to better understand, the people I ask get very frustrated and start to show anger towards my questions. Maybe it's because I'm Jewish and I was raised to ask questions about my own faith to better understand. I don't know.
I would not only read the answers you get in this forum. That alone I am sure will confuse you even more. But what might be of interesting read to you. Is that there are Jewish people that believe in Yeshua (Jesus). They are called Messianic Jew's. They can explain things more in Jewish way of thought as I am sure you would understand better being they come from your background. There are many questions to be answered there. One site I know of is(Jews for Jesus. org) which might help you understand Christianity better. They have a page where you can pick the questions you think of without chatting with someone. And answers many of the questions you might have. I thought it was a very helpful site. Good luck | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/10/2008 1:48:04 PM |
I would not only read the answers you get in this forum. That alone I am sure will confuse you even more. But what might be of interesting read to you. Is that there are Jewish people that believe in Yeshua (Jesus). They are called Messianic Jew's. They can explain things more in Jewish way of thought as I am sure you would understand better being they come from your background. There are many questions to be answered there. One site I know of is(Jews for Jesus. org) which might help you understand Christianity better. They have a page where you can pick the questions you think of without chatting with someone. And answers many of the questions you might have. I thought it was a very helpful site. Good luck
Of course for balance, I would suggest comparing the answers they give to those at jewsforjudaism.org and outreachjudaism.org and see how the answer from Judaism balances against what is essentially the answer from Evangelical Christianity. I especially recommend Rabbi Tovia Singer at OutreachJudaism as he has actively debated people from JewsforJesus and they have taken on his Q&A which he has answered point for point. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/11/2008 5:05:19 PM | | Kind of disagree with the above statement because you will get the wrong view of understanding Christians as you asked. They do not understand Christians. They will just focus on why Jesus is not the Messiah | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/11/2008 5:35:59 PM |
Kind of disagree with the above statement because you will get the wrong view of understanding Christians as you asked. They do not understand Christians. They will just focus on why Jesus is not the Messiah
You may disagree with you like, but the people who run those sites happen to be very familiar with Christian theology, in particular Rabbi Singer of Outreach Judaism who happens to know the Christian Bible better than most Christians I have met...he just happens to not to agree with the Christian view of the Tanakh - the Jewish Scriptures. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/11/2008 10:55:41 PM | God Bless you sir, with the knowledge you have supplied so far with grace...
Just to add on to what you are saying and perhaps I can shed some more light on this discussion. The Hebrew word for God is Elohim, which in its original form is plural.
God IS one, as it states in Deuteronomy 6:4, however as the Bible progresses it is not out of the ordinary to see the love poured out by God in three distinct forms but yet one essence.
Genesis 1:2 states, "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."
Genesis 1:26 states, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
While Christianity is a monethestic religion, believing that God is one, as early as Genesis, he starts to reveal his true nature and as you said above consligiere and the full essence was revealed in the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 states, " Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "
While the law of Moses was written on stone and were laws for Israel to follow, whereas the new covenant established by Jesus was to be written on our hearts, which is a reference to the Holy Spirit that indwells in all believers.
John 10:30 states, "I and the Father are one"
Exodus 3:14 states, "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
John 8:58 states, "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
When God spoke in Exodus he revealed his covenant name of Israel, YHWH which was an everlasting covenant and Jesus declared the same and used the same when he said, I AM. Abraham was born around 2000 years before Jesus said what he said, but he claimed to be alive before Abraham, how is that so? Who else was during that time? God and God alone.
God created all that we see, heavens and earth. As sinful men and women, we need a savior, a mediator betwneen us and God, Jesus, in a humbled state set the perfect example of living a sin less life, but since no one can match up or compare to him, if we accpet him into our lives as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9) the Holy Spirit indwells in us to convict us of sin and guide us in our day to day lives. The passage in Jeremiah is in reference to how the Holy Spirit lives in us and how law is within us rather than tablets and in law.
Cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness often confuse the trinity and make up their own doctrine that leads people away from the true message of Jesus and into waters that are best lest alone. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/11/2008 11:05:34 PM | The problem with Judaism as well as most humanity is that we are stubborn and we are left to our own interpretation rather than that of God's. Jesus as the savior of mankind came to create a spiritual kingdom, however most Jews to this day are under the impression that the Messiah was to be more of a political Messiah which was to rescue them out of captivity in a political sense. When Jesus taught what he taught, it was so completely different and radical from what they were used to and it was different from what they had already pre disposed their mind to.
Isaiah 55:8-11 states, 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
Our ways are never can never compare to his, neither can our thoughts, so while Jews may have their interpretation of what they want their Messiah to be like, it doesnt mean that is how the Messiah really is. Just as it says, the word which he has set forth will not come back until it has succeeded in the plan that he had. His plan was to redeem the world through Jesus and Jesus alone as the one and only Messiah.
So to answer your question, are they familiar with Christian theology or are they disposed to their philosophical disposition about what they think their Messiah will be like and ignoring the fact that the Messiah has already come? | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/11/2008 11:38:22 PM |
The problem with Judaism as well as most humanity is that we are stubborn and we are left to our own interpretation rather than that of God's. Jesus as the savior of mankind came to create a spiritual kingdom, however most Jews to this day are under the impression that the Messiah was to be more of a political Messiah which was to rescue them out of captivity in a political sense. When Jesus taught what he taught, it was so completely different and radical from what they were used to and it was different from what they had already pre disposed their mind to.
A wise man once said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and it's posts like the above that typify it. Don't try and speak for a religion and a belief system that you clearly have not bothered to learn anything about. Your interpretation of Jewish beliefs and the Jewish messiah are purely from a Christian point of view...one need only read your own words to see it...as a former Christian of many years I know the drill and I know the doublespeak.
Unlike yourself apparently I am content to consider people of the Jewish faith as co-religionists in the Abrahamic faith traditions along with Muslims, each with their own view of the God of Abraham...NOT blinded, NOT misled, NOT with laws merely carved on stone or some other patronizing way of denigrating their beliefs.
Our ways are never can never compare to his, neither can our thoughts, so while Jews may have their interpretation of what they want their Messiah to be like, it doesnt mean that is how the Messiah really is. Just as it says, the word which he has set forth will not come back until it has succeeded in the plan that he had. His plan was to redeem the world through Jesus and Jesus alone as the one and only Messiah.
So to answer your question, are they familiar with Christian theology or are they disposed to their philosophical disposition about what they think their Messiah will be like and ignoring the fact that the Messiah has already come?
The very idea of a Moschiach is a Jewish one...there is no precedent in Jewish scripture for the Moschiach to come once, be killed and come again. Only Christian apologists, looking to try and paint Jesus into the Tanakh will try and wrangle him into verses that don't fit...if you know Hebrew that is, know the basic history of who is being spoken to, who is speaking and the historical context of a given "prophetic" messianic verse. The reason Jews don't consider Jesus the Messiah is clear to Jews as they have a VERY clear expectation of what the Messianic Age will bring...it is not political at all, but the establishment of G-d's kingdom on earth. As well, they do not accept the idea of G-d incarnate in a man. This idea is thoroughly un-Jewish and is Christian or Pagan (Pagan from a Jewish perspective).
You present a false dichotomy...the Jews view vs. "the real view". The dichotomy is actually the Jews view vs. The Christian view. We have no way of knowing which one is the "real" view...that's why it is a matter of faith, not fact. If ever you should confuse the two, the door is that way as statements of exclusivity of truth and preaching are not welcome here.
If I were you, I'd make soem effort to actually learn about what your Jewish brothers and sisters really believe instead of just swallowing the propaganda you hear regularly because I'd have to grade you a zero on your Sunday School paper. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/12/2008 9:52:44 AM | tmf: I like the phrase "co-religionists". I'm told that calling Jewish believers "brothers and sisters" is offensive so maybe I'll adopt it instead. Regarding your comment, "NOT with laws merely carved on stone", the merely (and the emphasis) is not in the message, and I don't think it's implied. I re-read a few times, and he just doesn't say it. He does compare "laws written on stone" with "laws written on the heart" but that's a fair comment because he's giving his opinion of what the verses that speak of G-d writing His law on their hearts means. It's a valid explanation, and as long as it doesn't denigrate or co-opt the promise G-d made to the Jews, surely it should be allowed. After all, there is a difference between "Because Israel rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, Christians replace the Jews and Israel lost its inheritance" and "Because Israel rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, Christians were grafted into the original tree and became co-inheritors with Israel". Equals at the table. Siblings in the same inheritance of G-d's Grace.
I think you know my position, but in case you don't' I'll restate it. I believe that the promise in Jeremiah does refer symbolically to the coming of the "new law" in Jesus Christ through the agency of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and I also believe it looks forward to an ongoing promise to Israel that has yet to be fully completed. That is, believing it refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not make the promise to Israel void.
Respecting Jewish beliefs should not come at the price of ignoring or apologising for ones own beliefs. In some cases, people who take offence at the Christian claim that Jesus is the Messiah (an integral part of that belief system) take it too far and appear to be taking offence primarily to silence the Christian. That shows disrespect -- which is quite ironic if you think about it 
And then there is the denigration shown by some groups for those who are Jewish and have accepted Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Though they consider themselves still a part of the Jewish family, they are often abused by fellow Jews and regarded as traitors and outcasts. I can't recall the word, but I've heard it used to describe Jews who accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, it's a word that is a curse and a play on Jesus' name, something like using the the "k" word to refer to a Jew but much worse. Clearly, not all Jews are tolerant of change or respecting of other faiths.
Edit: Regarding,"Respecting Jewish beliefs should not come at the price of ignoring or apologising for ones own beliefs." I should clarify that I don't mean if ones beliefs are that Jews are lesser members of the family of G-d or that if ones beliefs are that Jews are "Christ killers' or similar clearly anti-Semitic beliefs. I think you understand my perspective, so that clarificaiton is for those who would leap on the statement and clutter the conversation with nitpicking demonizations. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/12/2008 11:23:51 AM | cult >noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. Judaism is a cult and like you said Tilt...."The problem with Judaism as well as most humanity is that we are stubborn and we are left to our own interpretation rather than that of God's."....that statement represents every religion on earth. It is because our religions are left to their interpretations that they mostly float like a sick in a large pond, it's direction being where the wind (popular sentiments of the present day) will guide it and not where God would have it go because nearly every single religion on this earth does not believe (at the present time) that God leads them through a prophet, revealing what he wants as he did it in the OT and NT. Now all sorts of religions believe their leader is inspired and led by the spirit of God but how often has any of them declared their leader has recieved revalation/new scripture from God?
"Cults like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness often confuse the trinity and make up their own doctrine that leads people away from the true message of Jesus and into waters that are best lest alone." You do understand the the word trinity is not in the Bible? Or the Jewish scriptures? You do understand that 2000 years ago and back their were more religions that entertained a monotheism belief then those with a trinitarian type belief? Some religions had a few to hundreds of single gods with single beings they worshiped but actually few of those gods had split personalites. Most were a single God with a single being. Secondly, you do understand that though the trinitarian type beliefs in a god is older then Christianity, the Christian belief in a God with multiple personalities was not established by Christ or the apostles. It was established AFTER Christ and the apostles were long dead. Not a single author of the NT discusses in opinion or by declared influence of the Spirit of God that it had been revealed to him that God had multiple personalities and then explained what he knew. Not a single author declared that. You, like the rest of us have a belief that comes from an opinion. The Jews still don't believe the Messiah has came. But Christians believe it. But neither Jews or Christians can PROVE anything so who is correct? An opinion? Becareful when you judge others with an opinion because your beliefs are also based on an opinion.
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/12/2008 11:52:42 AM |
Secondly, you do understand that though the trinitarian type beliefs in a god is older then Christianity, the Christian belief in a God with multiple personalities was not established by Christ or the apostles. It was established AFTER Christ and the apostles were long dead. Not a single author of the NT discusses in opinion or by declared influence of the Spirit of God that it had been revealed to him that God had multiple personalities and then explained what he knew. Not a single author declared that. You, like the rest of us have a belief that comes from an opinion.
I disagree and can show many scriptures that reveal God as Christ, and this claim is J made by ALL the Apostles.
Starting first with John. He gets right to the point on this one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word And the Word was with God And the Word was God
he words "In the beginning" in John 1:1 are translated from the Greek words ´en arche´. It is highly significant that these are the very words that begin the book of Genesis. The obvious is that John´s beginning is identical to the Genesis beginning, further parallels between the two accounts are found in the fact that both refer to God, creation, light, and darkness.
To completely understand this verse we must ask, When did time begin? There is a distinct difference between time and eternity...Time itself is a created reality, by indications in Scripture, a reality that began when God began creating the universe. before time came into existence was the existence of eternity which is not subject to realms regarding time, or moments.
The book of Hebrews contains hints regarding the distinction between time and eternity...Hebrews 1:2 tells us the Father "has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe" The last part of this verse is rendered from the Greek more literally "through whom He made the ages" and again in Hebrews 11:3 tells us that "by Faith we understand the universe was formed at God´s command" again the Greek renders more literally ´By faith we understand that ´the ages´ were formed at God´s command."
Either way it is understood that the universe was created alongside of time, and the universe was NOT created ´in time´ The understanding I am trying to get across is that before the creating of time lies a beginningless eternity, and what we must conclude that when the Apostle John said "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God"...the phrase ´in the beginning´ has specific reference to the beginning of time when the universe was first created. When the time-space universe came into being, Christ the divine Word was already existing.
It is important to understand this, because John tells us that ´in the beginning(when time began) was the Word. The verb ´was´ in this verse is an imperfect tense in the Greek text, indicating continued existence. When the time-space universe came into being, Christ the Divine Word was already existing in a loving, intimate relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The imperfect tense of ´was´ reaches back indefinitely beyond the instant of the beginning.´ The verb ´was´ signifies the eternal existence of the Word, making it impossible for the Word ´Logos´ to come into being at a specific point in eternity past, because at the point at which all else began to be, the Word already was in existence...and no matter how far back we go in eternity past, it is impossible to come to a point when the Word was created, or we would be moving from the realm of eternity into the realm of time and creation, and once we came to that point in time and creation, Christ(the Word) would already be pre-existing, like the scriptures clearly say. This needs to be grasped.
When heaven and earth came into being at Creation, there was Christ, already existing in close association with the Father. This close association is affirmed in John´s gospel: "the Word was with God"...this is not merely coexistence with God that is asserted, as two beings standing side by side, united in a local relation, or even a common conception. What is suggested is an active relation of intercourse. The Greek preposition for ´with´ is ´pros´, and carries the idea of intimate, unbroken fellowship and communion. Christ the Word existed in eternity in company with the Father in an eternal, loving relationship. Both the Word and His relationship with the Father are eternal. there was never part of His existence which found Him to be separated in any sense from the Godhead.
It is also important to recognize that in John 1:2, Christ the Word is said to be distinct from and at the same time equal with God. He was with God and at the same time is said to be God....the Greek preposition ´pros´ implies two distinct persons, and at the same time is said to be God. The Father and the Word are not the same, but they belong together. The fact that One may be said to be ´with´ the Other clearly differentiates them. Yet, though they are distinct, there is no disharmony. John´s expression points us to the perfect unity in which they are joined." We now see how this Word who is God was in the eternal reciprocal relation with God....The Word is one of the three Divine persons of the eternal Godhead.
To suggest that Jesus was ´another´ god other than the One True Creator God is to suggest that there are two eternal Gods creating the universe which goes against all Scripture which proclaims there is only ONE eternal God.
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/12/2008 3:15:57 PM | "I disagree and can show many scriptures that reveal God as Christ, and this claim is J made by ALL the Apostles."
Great point Consiq. But though you can interpret the scriptures and so can I as so can anyone else, these is not a single author of the entire Bible that took the time to state in some form or fashion....." I was contemplating the very nature of God. I petitioned God through prayer and this is what he revealed to me of himself......"......There are no statements or verses that declare any such thing. Now as discussed let us take a single moment of Moses's time and his experience with this thing. Not only did Moses declare God's singularity, he also declared God's pluriality. Yet the Jews do not entertain the Christian's trinity definition of God though the Jews in the same breath do believe that God has more then one part to himself. The similarity is that both the Jews and Trinitarian Christians both believe God is nothing and everything without substance. But in one single instance, a consternation of sorts to Jews and Trinitarian Christians both, because they do not know how to expalin it as Moses meant it so they explain away the meaning as Moses wrote it so it will mean anything but of how Moses wrote it. Now all of the preceeding verses can be argued and debated, etc. But the last verse states what it states....there is no interpretation except for what it states.....
Exodus 33:23..."And I will take away mine hand,and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."
The problem that Jews and Christian Trinitarians have with this verse is that in it, not only does Moses explicitly records that God is covering his vision with his HAND, (note that word and that no other word was used to keep Moses from seeing for a moment.) and that when God passes by so Moses cannot see his face (or else he would die) God said he would remove his hand so that Moses can see his backparts, but Moses gives one of the only Biblical accounts where an author of the Bible heavily insinuates that God has physical substance. Whether he has a physical substance all the time or just for that moment is debateable. Now prior to this experience, it began in verse 33:18 with Moses wanting to SEE the glory of God. Now this verse would have said many other things if Moses had asked God to let him "feel" his glory with his mind or to "touch" his glory" with a hand, etc. Instead (since we can safely assume prior to this verse Moses has already FELT God's glory through his mind and being, we have to consider what exactly was it that Moses was wanting to SEE concerning God's glory? Below is the modern definition of glory that I am assuming has not changed much since the old testament prophets used a word comparable to it.....
"glory >noun (pl. glories) 1 high renown or honor won by notable achievements. 2 magnificence; great beauty. 3 a very beautiful or impressive thing. 4 worship and thanksgiving offered to God."
In relation to verse 18 we can rule out definition 1. We can also rule out definition 4. because Moses had gave...."4 worship and thanksgiving offered to God.".....to many times to count previous to verse 18. That leaves the definitions 2 and 3 as being applicable to verse 18 because Moses ASKED of God something he had not asked of God before as so it was not recorded previous to verse 18. In verse 18 Moses asked God to SEE his Glory. Then Moses says God found favor with him and blessed his request. Now as happened with Paul and John the revalator, we have no description here from Moses where he is confused as to what is happening, whether he is in his body or out of his body or if he is dreaming. Moses goes on to explain in detail how God allows Moses to see the glory of his being but not his face. Funny how if God has no substance or form and Moses knew that it is strange that Moses goes out of his way to explain about an experience where he asks God if he can see his substance if he has one and God says yes and Moses gives a detailed recording where he saw the backparts of God as he PASSED by.
Anyway....my opinion.  | |
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Snohma
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/12/2008 7:32:14 PM | These answers are all very long winded and complicated
It's really pretty simple from what I understand
The Hebrews have their own covenant with God - Jesus was sent and sacrificed so that the rest of us may join Him as well | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 12:38:02 AM | | Jesus is God essentially. I suggest you ask Him for His wisdom personally. Contrary to popular belief, He is real, and will give you the answers you seek if you genuinely desire the Truth. Do not waste your time trying to understand Christians. Rather, seek to understand Christ. I understand why the folks on here share their disbelief in Him and it's simply because they have never experienced Him in their lives and some, sadly don't want to for whatever reason. Most are miserable deep down inside no matter how hard they try to hide it and they want everyone else to be miserable with them. They get enraged at Christians because we possess the Peace that they are lacking. Turn away from them and seek Him and His answers for yourself. May God bless you abundantly beyond your fondest dreams! | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 2:45:38 AM | I understand why the folks on here share their disbelief in Him and it's simply because they have never experienced Him in their lives and some, sadly don't want to for whatever reason. Most are miserable deep down inside no matter how hard they try to hide it and they want everyone else to be miserable with them. They get enraged at Christians because we possess the Peace that they are lacking. Turn away from them and seek Him and His answers for yourself.
Well...I suppose you can choose to believe that...if it makes you feel more secure. Or, if you want the truth of it you could actually ask why. I for one am a former Christian that deeply felt the "living presence" of the Holy Spirit as demons were cast out and people were healed in the most devout of Pentecostal services...the most deep feeling of Christians there are. If you want to deny that I in any way did not feel the presence of the Holy Spirit that was there in the presence of people speaking in tongues and casting out devils...well frankly I would say your own best criterion for holiness was a sham because I was there at "ground zero" for holiness....I felt it. It was powerful and it forced me to the ground.
... ... ... However...
That being said... I know know that the power of that experience does not represent one strain of belief, one God, one religion. I've had ample confirmation of that through experiences equally powerful and meaningful. What does that tell me??? Was I deceived by the Devil??? Duh...is that the conclusion I default to when I don't agree with Christian dogma? I should think not. I sense the presence of God on a regular basis now...in a non-Christian context. I sense it's opposite as well. They are clearly distinct from another. I don't need the Christian context to discern them.
The simple point of them is, to the OP, it is more than possible to function without a Christian POV in this world...I daresay, even preferable for some of us.
A lot of us are not miserable in the least...this is a Christian "wet dream"...we are peaceful, compassionate and functional and hopeful for the future. That's a damned sight more than I would say for these paranoid doomsaying fanatics. (not all Christians...but certainly the fundamentalists that enjoy fitting this description) | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 6:21:15 AM | There were a whole lot of concepts and "truths" that were misunderstood by the Jews in the Old Testament...but brought to light by Christ in the New Testament.
The Trinity is not the teaching of 3 Gods- rather ONE GOD who is plural in nature.
There are a lot of FALSE trinity teachings....many pagan triad "gods"- distorted from biblical revelation about the nature of God.
Genesis 1:1 says- In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth-
And in Col 1:16 it says- For by him (Jesus) ALL THINGS were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created BY him and FOR HIM him.
Matt 1:23 says- "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" -which means, "God with us."
COLOSSIANS 1:15 says- “He is the image of the invisible God-
John 1:1 The word was God. John 1:14 The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
In John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God. If Jesus was not God, as a good Rabbi he would have rebuked Thomas for blasphemy. But instead, he congratulates Thomas.
Acts 20:28 says that God Purchased the church with his blood. God the father is spirit, so he didn't shed blood, but Jesus did.
Both the Father and the Son are referred to as "savior"- and also both are referred to as the alpha and omega...the first and the last. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 7:55:29 AM |
Both the Father and the Son are referred to as "savior"- and also both are referred to as the alpha and omega...the first and the last.
I think that the truth that Father, Son, and Spirit are bound together in the name of God defines thier unity in a way that we propbably don't fully understand in these times. back in the day, a name was equivalent to the one who bore it. When God said to Moses.....'I AM that I AM'...He was not merely givig Moses a name by which He should be called, but was describing His etenal attributes by His name......'I AM' and YHWH are both derivatives of the verb 'to be'...and symbolizes God's active participation in and with His people.
'The ''Alpha and Omega" represents God again in His etenal attributes and is a title that ONLY God can claim for HImself.....for any other creature to ascribe themselves as the "Alpha and Omega' would be utter blasphemy.
The 'Alpha and Omega' represents the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet......however in Hebrew thought, this takes on deeper meaning and perspective....
In Jewish thinking, a reference to the first and the last letters of the alphabet (aleph and tau in Hebrew) was regarded as including all the intermediate letters, and came to represent totality or entirety. It is with this idea in mind that the Jews in their ancient commentaries on the Old Testament said that Adam transgressed the whole law from aleph to tau. Abraham, by contrast, observed the whole law from aleph to tau. The Jews also believed that when God brings blessing upon Israel, He does so abundantly, from aleph to tau. When used of God (or Christ), the First and last letters express eternality and omnipotence. Christ's claim to be the Alpha and the Omega is an affirmation that He is the all-powerful One of eternity past and eternity future (YHWH God). In describing Himself as 'the First and the Last' Christ is relating Himself to time and eternity. He is the eternal God who has always existed in the past and who will always exist in the future. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 9:41:04 AM | "The Trinity is not the teaching of 3 Gods- rather ONE GOD who is plural in nature." This is why the Trinity doctrine has so many, unexplainable and contradictory terms. The Trinity is the teaching of 3 Gods...God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Each of these Gods has it's very own character and personna, resonating from a single intelligence. That makes great sense to those that wish to believe it. But the Bible does not endorse that teaching. OPINIONS of the Bible endorse that interpretation.
"There are a lot of FALSE trinity teachings....many pagan triad "gods"- distorted from biblical revelation about the nature of God." Pagan triad god beliefs long existed before the Christian definition came along. The Christian Trinity doctrine most definetly can be traced to the pagan beliefs in a single god with three or more personalities. This is not a new belief by any means.
COLOSSIANS 1:15 says- “He is the image of the invisible God- If Christ had an image while being here on earth (which he did) he could not be the image of the invisible God for the invisible God has no image according to the Trinity doctrine. So this verse would be a lie unto itself because it is speaking of the word "IMAGE" which does not deal with personality traits but is defined as "PHYSICAL" traits.
"Acts 20:28 says that God Purchased the church with his blood. God the father is spirit, so he didn't shed blood, but Jesus did." Actually, by the doctrine of the Trinity, one intelligence-three personages, what one says/does they all say/do. You cannot correctly seperate them in this. When Christ had his blood shed, so also blood of the Father and blood of the Holy Ghost was being shed because these three are the same single intelligence. So there was not a single savior either. There was God the Father the Savior...Jesus Christ the God the Savior and Holy Ghost the God the Savior also. This is what I meant that the Trinity doctrine has so many contradictory teachings within it's own doctrine. This is the base teaching of the Trinity......There is a single intelligence without form or mass or substance that made everything from nothing as it made itself from nothing into everything, thus all things being a product/mirror image of itself. Something propelled itself to decide to create these heavens and earths in a way that is totally alien to it's own being. An image. Then it decides it wants to create a whole bunch of tiny-tiny pieces of it's intellect with a limited capacity for thought and to give each tiny-tiny piece of it's intellect a form......You think I jest here??? This is the base reasoning of a single intelligence that splits itself into multiples of it's intelligence!! This is the logic of the Trinity belief....There was God. God imparts parts of his intelligence to various forms on this earth. We are subserviant to God but yet we are God. We are his intelligence, not our own. We think there be a differance between God and us but in the logic of the Trinity belief there is no difference, it is just deciet to make us believe something that cannot be as we are a extended part of God in all ways.
Now do you understand the complexities of the Trinity doctrine that it cannot even to begin to explain to it's ownself of it's own definition? Christ did state he is not the author of confusion yet this is confusion to the very definition of the word.
If a person wishes to entertain a belief that is so far off the scope of understanding by any human comprehension, have at it. But remember, a group of men established this doctrine.....not God....not Christ.....not the Holy Ghost.....not the apostles. A group of men established this doctrine through their opinion of what they wanted to believe in. They were not seeking what God taught, they were seeking answers for what they already believed. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 11:36:53 AM |
There were a whole lot of concepts and "truths" that were misunderstood by the Jews in the Old Testament...but brought to light by Christ in the New Testament.
You don't seem to get it so I will repeat this for you.
The Jews haven't misunderstood anything. They believe DIFFERENTLY than you do.
If you are a Christian, which I will surmise you are based on your post, you base your faith mostly on the holy scriptures of the Jews, changed in part to make Christian theology work...you may choose not to admit this but the following is a simple fact:
Judaism does not need Christ or Christianity to be a working self-contained belief. Christianity needs Judaism and the Jewish Scriptures to be true and valid in order for it to be a working belief system...at least to the point where they start interpreting them differently.
And as to the calling of people "God"...
I think you need to do some serious research here. There is a reason why it is said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Referring to people as "gods" as a term of respect was about as common as referring to them as "messiahs" in the Jewish and New Testament Scriptures. If you don't know the exact words you are reading and in context and are only reading a translation without footnotes and without the contextual reference, you will hopelessly misunderstand what is being written every time. It is like giving a child a book on how to cook french cuisine and waiting for a souffle...pointless. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 3:43:22 PM | someonetookmySN wrote:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should also have known my Father, and from henceforth, ye know Him, and have seen Him." John 5:46-47 In this quote I am even more confused. What I get from this passage is "You have to go through me to be with God." Does this mean I have to worship Jesus to be with God? If so then that kinda contradicts the 10 commandments... First, I will qualify my comments by the fact that I'm a recovering Catholic . My recovery started when I asked a nun in my confirmation class at age 18 what happened to the souls of the gillion people who died before Jesus existed, who had no chance to accept him as the son of God... Her answer and the answers I got from others were not convincing me that anyone should be telling me what I should believe. By the way, the latest Pope finally cleared up the matter for me: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1613390,00.html (Pope Banishes Limbo)
My take on the above quote is that Jesus was saying his "way" (philosophy) was the one that would bring you to righteousness. Trinity doesn't appear in the Bible anywhere, as far as I know (just like Limbo doesn't either).
I'm not well read enough on the subject to be a scholar, but it's logical that if you want the new religion to catch on, there are a couple of marketing "hooks" that are important. You have to differentiate it from the old religion yet maintain monotheism (one way is by proposing the Trinity paradox), and you have to make it so that it's easy to convert (just accept Jesus as the son of God, which also differentiates it further, since Jews and Muslims don't believe this).
Jesus 1.0 was built on the install base of Judaism - Jesus was a Jew. Please excuse the software metaphors. The flavors of Christianity that formally exist today represent many "service packs" and "patches" applied to Jesus 1.0. The Holy trinity, the virgin birth, limbo, etc. are add-on interpretations done by later individuals, as far as I can tell from my readings of the scriptures. You can find scholars still debate a lot of this.
If you want a really good answer to your question, ask it in a scholarly forum about Christianity.
I think monotheism is always problematic in modern religions and always seems like a unifying patch that has to be applied as people drift back to worshiping multiple deities. The Catholic church used to have patron saints for all kinds of things to whom people prayed depending on their latest woes. I have visited Hindu temples with Hindu friends and it's interesting to me how there are different stations where people spend their time praying, depending on their current problems.
BTW, I think it's cool you are trying to grok all the different religions. There are a lot of common themes. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 7:17:49 PM |
Well...I suppose you can choose to believe that...if it makes you feel more secure. Or, if you want the truth of it you could actually ask why. I for one am a former Christian that deeply felt the "living presence" of the Holy Spirit as demons were cast out and people were healed in the most devout of Pentecostal services...the most deep feeling of Christians there are. If you want to deny that I in any way did not feel the presence of the Holy Spirit that was there in the presence of people speaking in tongues and casting out devils...well frankly I would say your own best criterion for holiness was a sham because I was there at "ground zero" for holiness....I felt it. It was powerful and it forced me to the ground.
However...
That being said... I know know that the power of that experience does not represent one strain of belief, one God, one religion. I've had ample confirmation of that through experiences equally powerful and meaningful. What does that tell me??? Was I deceived by the Devil??? Duh...is that the conclusion I default to when I don't agree with Christian dogma? I should think not. I sense the presence of God on a regular basis now...in a non-Christian context. I sense it's opposite as well. They are clearly distinct from another. I don't need the Christian context to discern them.
The simple point of them is, to the OP, it is more than possible to function without a Christian POV in this world...I daresay, even preferable for some of us.
A lot of us are not miserable in the least...this is a Christian "wet dream"...we are peaceful, compassionate and functional and hopeful for the future. That's a damned sight more than I would say for these paranoid doomsaying fanatics. (not all Christians...but certainly the fundamentalists that enjoy fitting this description)
I was wondering out of concern, if you have ever read about the only unforgivable sin:...Knowing and experiencing the Holy Spirit and rejecting Him while scorning the Brethren. I can understand why most Atheists or non-believers do as you do. They have never experienced Him for real and they don't know, which is a totally different ballgame. On the other hand, if you are sincere with what you have said, I feel very saddened for you and it almost brings me to tears. The only way to the Father is through the Son, Christ Jesus. I never fathomed that I would encounter someone that would actually commit that. I thought it impossible for someone to know Him and yet reject Christ. If you have truly felt the Holy Spirit like you say you have, then you would know that Christ and the Spirit are one in the same. I'm hoping and praying that what you say is not true. It doesn't matter what you say about being fanatical. Being a Fanatic for Jesus is the only way. Fanatics are True Christians, because thats what we are to do...Proclaim His Name. People that title themselves Christians but don't share with others boldly about Him and respect other's beliefs are wrong. They may gain favor with people, but they won't gain favor with God. If you are ashamed of Him, He will in turn be ashamed of you. Everything you utter is foolishness. You fit the description of what the Word of God describes as a Fool to a tee. Read Proverbs as well as Christ's teachings. It's uncanny! I sincerely hope that you are just kidding around or a slave to drugs and not in your right frame of mind. I pray for the deliverance of your soul. I truly do. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 7:19:22 PM | Hello Someone Took my SN? I'm new so bare with me... I'm a Metaphysical Christian, which basically means we look for the meaning underneath the words...we are often called Truth Seekers.
I belive the Trinity expresses the Nature of People. We are tri-une beings, made up of Body, Mind and Spirit. The Trinity, shows those three aspects. In the Bible it says, "Let US create man/woman in OUR image." And God wasn't speaking to "his Son" to make humans, clearly the evidence is that Men & Women were made! To me that means that the Creator, separated itself into the Male and Female Properties, thus the Body.
Mind, is the way that Jesus reached people, by mentally teaching them Truths they did not realize they possessed, like the Power of Belief. "Your faith has made you whole," he'd often say, after a 'miracle.' Jesus is the "tangible" hand that we can "hold." Jesus was The demonstration of a Person, who fully realized his Divine Essence; and until we ALL recognize that within ourselves, we cannot 'come to the Creator/Father-Mother God.
Now Spirit, that is our Eternal part. It is like the wind, no one sees where it comes from or can see where it goes, only the evidence it leaves behind, whether that is the rustling of leaves, or it's distruction. All Eternal things cannot be seen. Things like Love, Passion...that invisible thread that connects us to those we love, and like it or not, to each other.
Metaphysically, Jesus sitting at the Right Hand of God, could be intrepreted, as we sit along side of God...not below Him/Her.
Finally, dear one, continue to Search for YOUR Truth. The mere fact that you are seeking means, you shall find.
Blessings, Bee
PS: Did you know that virtually all Religions/Belief Systems believe in Angels.
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| Help me understand Christians please. Posted: 5/13/2008 8:59:09 PM | You fit the description of what the Word of God describes as a Fool to a tee. Read Proverbs as well as Christ's teachings. It's uncanny! I sincerely hope that you are just kidding around or a slave to drugs and not in your right frame of mind. I pray for the deliverance of your soul. I truly do.
Oh I am quite serious about my past and my experience...but unfortunately, in my opinion, you fit the description to a tee of someone who is shackled to the form of religion and is missing the Great Mystery behind it. Only when you embrace The Fool in you will you discover where that journey begins and ends...in fact in this very sentence I answered part of the Mystery...but I don't think you'll get it. I'll pray for your deliverance as well but I suspect it will be a long time coming.
I'm also quite serious about the fact that you can share your beliefs in this forum without making statements of exclusivity of truth, denigrating the beliefs of other faiths and constantly treating the forums like it's your own personal streetcorner pulpit...in fact, that happens to be part of the Religion/Supernatural subforum rules. People for whom those rules seem to be a problem might wonder at why their posts seem to vanish can now gaze and wonder at the simple enlightenment of realizing that in a public place, an ecumenical and pluralistic environment where people of all faiths and creeds are invited to discuss issues pertaining to religion and spirituality, why rude jerks are simply asked not to participate. It's really that simple. | |
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