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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/13/2008 10:20:24 PM | cramnsugar said:
"The Trinity is not the teaching of 3 Gods-
rather ONE GOD who is plural in nature."
montanan76 said:
This is why the Trinity doctrine has so many, unexplainable and contradictory terms. The Trinity is the teaching of 3 Gods...God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Each of these Gods has it's very own character and personna, resonating from a single intelligence. That makes great sense to those that wish to believe it. But the Bible does not endorse that teaching. OPINIONS of the Bible endorse that interpretation.
I think that creamnsugar chose the wrong words in her explanation and because of this you aren't grasping what she is actually saying...
The Trinity is not a teaching of 3 Gods. nor is a teaching of a God with plural natures. There is One nature in God, and that nature and fulnes is represented in the Father, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
There is a great deal of info in this passage regarding the Supremacy and Deity of Christ...first off the passage states that Christ was in the ful nature of God and then He took on human attributes and was made in human likeness. Christ did not attain to Godhood by first becoming a man and fulfilling a mission, Christ added the human nature to His nature of being God. The incarnation was one of condescension for Christ, where He had to make Himself nothing, and take on the nature of mankind by being made into human likeness. Even though Christ took on the form of human likeness, He never gave up His Godly attributes, though He certainly veiled these attributes at times to accomplish His mission on earth. Christ did for a moment allow His intrinsic glory to illuminate the mountainside, but of course He could not continually walk and function in the earthly realm and accomplish God's purposes, if He had not keep His glory hidden.
Another thing that should be noted in this passage is that Paul's last remark is quoting from the Old Testament book of Isaiah ...In Isaiah, this is spoken by YHWH, and Paul confirms this prophecy as being applicable to Christ.
Isaiah 45
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
montanan76 you said earlier that YHWH was Christ and not the Father, yet there are many scriptures that consider the Father as YHWH in the Old Testament that youseeem to refuse to address. You have your opinions and that is fine, but making a claim that your conclusions are actually drawn from scripture is quite the stretch. And what you claim the Trionity teaches is actually what you understand or don't understand, and really has nothing to do with the teaching of the Trinity. As for God's image being physical, that is another stretch of your imagination and is not from scripture either. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 1:49:50 AM | 1 Corinthians 14:33 states, "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace."
Obviously you did not read much of my post, rather read the parts you wanted to read and respond to that, did you care to read the passage that I found in Jeremiah, what can that refer to? I do believe that Judaism is part of the old covenant and I consider them my brothers in hopes that one day they understand that their Messiah has come and to accept the gift of salvation that only Christ can offer. I am not the most well versed in the history of Judaism, however, I can pull many passages from the Jewish scriptures that point to one person and one person alone, Jesus as the Messiah. Islam is in no way shape or form an extension of God's truth, Mohammad descended from Ishmael, but the message sent by Islam and the Qur'an are not the word of God and they deny Jesus' true nature and is built upon numerous contradictions. I am sure Mohammad may have meant well, but he was not a prophet of God.
I just want to apologize before hand because there are numerous passages that I can show you that can clear things up, let's get started...
Acts 2:25-36
25"For David says of Him,
'(AD)I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;
FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;
MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO (AE)HADES,
(AF)NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;
YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the (AG)patriarch David that he both (AH)died and (AI)was buried, and (AJ)his tomb is with us to this day.
30"And so, because he was (AK)a prophet and knew that (AL)GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of [c]the Christ, that (AM)HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32"This Jesus (AN)God raised up again, to which we are all (AO)witnesses.
33"Therefore having been exalted (AP)to the right hand of God, and (AQ)having received from the Father (AR)the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has (AS)poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'(AT)THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36"Therefore let all the (AU)house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both (AV)Lord and Christ--this Jesus (AW)whom you crucified."
David prophesied about Christ, knowing that he would not allow him to see the grave, so I ask you, where is Jesus? His tomb is nowhere to be found like many of the other great prophets, rather he is exalted in heaven, continuing the promise that God had established with David, blessing his geneology with the Messiah who was to save the world.
Yes they do not accept the incarnation, but have you read Isaiah 9:6?
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Who is Jesus referred to many times over again?
You may assume, and unfortunately wrongly I might add that Jesus did not claim to be God, but if you read after John 8:58, the Jews tried to stone Jesus becaused he said "I AM" which was a direct claim to divinity, so if he never claimed to be God why would they try to kill him after such a statement?
Am I the one making exclusive truth claims, or was it Jesus? Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." So you can twist my words and assume that I am the one making exclusive claims, rather, I am doing what is called upon me to do as a sinner saved by Christ and as part of the body of Christ. Matthew 28:19 states, "Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" I am commanded by my Lord to state the truth. 1 Peter 3:15 states, "Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to make a defense for the hope that is within you"
Acts 4:12 states, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
The door of truth will always be closed to many people in society because they are afraid or for other reasons choose not to seek it. Matthew 7:13 states, "“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." I understand that, I just pray for the truth to be spread amongst the world, just as Jesus commanded us to do, I also pray that the misinformation being spread will subside and the truth of Christ will be known.
That is fine that you can grade my paper as a zero, but remember that I strive for the spirit, not for the flesh.
I can go on and on, but it is just a matter of how receptive one is to hearing the truth because truth does exists and he paid the price for us. I'll ask one last question...
Who, really then was Jesus? Was he just a good moral teacher? Was he just a prophet? Who was he? If he was a good moral teacher, he cannot lie, because he claimed to be God and if he was not God then he lied because he claimed to be God in John 8:58, that would in turn mean that he did not have good morals because a good moral teacher would not lie, would he? A good moral teacher would not claim to be God, would he? Islam claims he was merely a prophet, but why would a prophet make these outlandish claims if he really was not who he said he was?
I pray that you read John 3:16 and meditate upon that. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:05:41 AM | Trinity does not need to be in the Bible, there are numerous verses throughout the Bible that I can use that can be used to affirm the truth of such a doctrine. There are many words we use today that are not in the b ible, but it is just a word to define such a thing. Theology is the study of God, but it is not in the Bible, so does it make it untrue? No, we just understand what it is, which is the study of God, just as Trinity is a doctrine that affirms what we read in the bible.
During the growth of Christianity it is true, Greek mythology was running rampid and there were many different belief systems in that day in age, just like there was before that as well as after that and even now, it is nothing new to God.
I have absolutely no idea where you are getting your information from when you say it was after the Apostles were dead when the personality of God came to fruition, have you read the Bible? Anything and everything we know about God is in the Bible and the Bible alone, period. I really do not need to fill a whole page of scripture references it will get extremely long, I just suggest that you brush up on the claims that you are claiming cause i'm really confused.
My views are not based on an opinion, rather a promise that Jesus and Jesus alone could make and keep, seeing as how he was the only sinless individual to walk the face of the earth.
1 John 3:5 states, " And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin."
Please show me one other person to ever walk the face of the earth that was sinless and i'll fly across the biggest mountain you can find.
Isaiah 64:6 states, "But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away. "
We are destroyed inside, as humans we only possess the good in what we view as good but to God, we need a savior because we are filled with things that we all wish we did not have, without Jesus, we continue to live that way and with Him, all things are possible and obtainable.
So, is it merely an opinion from a fleshly man? Or, rather, is it an unbreakable promise from God Himself? You be the judge, I know who I put my salvation in because salvation comes in no other(Acts 4:12) | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:09:35 AM | Your reference to Jeremiah 31:31 is a classic Christian ploy of "a text out of context is a pretext". Read the passage in context and you will see G-d's promise to the Jewish people: "Thus saith the L-RD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The L-RD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the L-RD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." Jeremiah 31:35-36.
Well, guess what? Israel is still here... | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:15:42 AM |
Hello Someone Took my SN?
I'm new so bare with me...
I'm a Metaphysical Christian, which basically means we look for the meaning underneath the words...we are often called Truth Seekers.
I belive the Trinity expresses the Nature of People. We are tri-une beings, made up of Body, Mind and Spirit. The Trinity, shows those three aspects. In the Bible it says, "Let US create man/woman in OUR image." And God wasn't speaking to "his Son" to make humans, clearly the evidence is that Men & Women were made! To me that means that the Creator, separated itself into the Male and Female Properties, thus the Body.
Mind, is the way that Jesus reached people, by mentally teaching them Truths they did not realize they possessed, like the Power of Belief. "Your faith has made you whole," he'd often say, after a 'miracle.' Jesus is the "tangible" hand that we can "hold."
Jesus was The demonstration of a Person, who fully realized his Divine Essence; and until we ALL recognize that within ourselves, we cannot 'come to the Creator/Father-Mother God.
Now Spirit, that is our Eternal part. It is like the wind, no one sees where it comes from or can see where it goes, only the evidence it leaves behind, whether that is the rustling of leaves, or it's distruction. All Eternal things cannot be seen. Things like Love, Passion...that invisible thread that connects us to those we love, and like it or not, to each other.
Metaphysically, Jesus sitting at the Right Hand of God, could be intrepreted, as we sit along side of God...not below Him/Her.
Finally, dear one, continue to Search for YOUR Truth. The mere fact that you are seeking means, you shall find.
Blessings,
Bee
PS: Did you know that virtually all Religions/Belief Systems believe in Angels.
Galatians 1:6-9 states,"6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
The only truth to be seeked is that which is found in the Bible and read properly. We do not have the luxury of finding a truth that suits our needs best, because with sinful minds, actions and thoughts, how can we distinguish between what is true and what is not? The answer is that we cannot.
Angels are created beings, by God, when we die, we do not turn into angels. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:21:44 AM | | The God of Israel is a god of life not death. The God of Israel is not like the pagan gods who incarnate themselves. This incarnation serves no purpose to the Children of Israel. G-d already revealed Himself and His expectation for humanity at Mt. Sinai to the entire nation of Israel. The Jewish people were commissioned at that time to be a light unto the nations and carry the message of monotheism, freedom, justice, equality, charity and peace to the human race. We do not need to have our God come in the form of a man, as it is totally unnecessary! | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:25:08 AM | There is no historical or archeological evidence of the existence of Jesus. None whatsoever. The only "evidence" of the existence of Jesus is the gospel accounts of his life and death. The Dead Sea Scrolls, written in the time of Jesus' "ministry", make no mention of him. Even the one or two passages in the works of Josephus have been proven to be forgeries.
But let's assume Jesus was Jewish and his original followers were Jewish. The original Jesus movement adhered to Judaism as its "religious" practice, met in synagogues, kept the seventh day Sabbath, honored the Torah and Jewish Holy Days. They did not worship Jesus as a god. Jesus never taught that he was G-d! The original followers of Jesus thought he was the Messiah not G-d incarnate. Christianity, through the teachings of Paul (the self-appointed apostle) adopted Pagan ideas and practices, which were incompatible with Judaism. Once Paul's Christianity gained prominence Christian anti-Semitism began and Christian persecution of Jews lasted some 1700 years. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:26:49 AM | | There is no need for the God of Israel to sacrifice Himself. For Him to do so is a contradiction of His commandment to us not to practice human sacrifice. Your reasoning is in the same vein as: G-d commanded us not to bear false witness but what prevents G-d from being a liar and speaking untruths? G-d commanded us not to steal but what prevents G-d from being a thief? G-d commanded us not to murder but what prevents G-d from committing murder? G-d commanded us not to commit adultery but what prevents G-d from committing adultery? Oh, G-d did commit adultery with Mary when He impregnated her through the "holy ghost" while she was betrothed to Joseph, according to the gospel story. He also committed rape, as Mary had no idea she was pregnant until an angel told her, according to the gospels. He also violated the trust between a man and a woman, and Joseph was going to kill Mary until, again, another angel told him not to do it, according to the gospels. So, Christianity has turned the God of Israel into an adulterer, a rapist, and a breaker of Joseph's heart! | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:29:48 AM |
Your reference to Jeremiah 31:31 is a classic Christian ploy of "a text out of context is a pretext". Read the passage in context and you will see G-d's promise to the Jewish people: "Thus saith the L-RD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The L-RD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the L-RD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." Jeremiah 31:35-36.
Well, guess what? Israel is still here...
Shall we stop there or continue to read further? These verses emphasize the certainty with which Israel can expect God to fulfill the New Covenant.
Jeremiah 33:25-26 states, "“Thus says the LORD: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’”
Just as God keeps his covenants with night and day, heaven and earth, so will he with every covenant he has established.
Jeremiah 33:17 states, "For thus says the Lord:"David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel"
In this day in age, who sits on the throne of David during these times? Anyone alive to do so? To my knowledge no one does, however I could be wrong, but I do know who sits on David's throne in heaven and that is Christ. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:32:04 AM | A fundamental lack of understanding of the God of Israel exists here. G-d does not require blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sin. Prayer of Jews like Daniel during the Babylonian exile brought to the Jewish nation forgiveness without the shedding of blood. G-d let us return to the Land of Israel and Jerusalem. G-d used the gentile king Cyrus to help us rebuild our shattered homeland.
Neither animal sacrifice nor the scapegoat can possibly take human sin, animal sacrifice is just ritual. G-d is interested in the condition of your heart and your actions, not animal sacrifice. Case in point: You go to the High Priest to offer your sacrifice, say a lamb, but you have stolen 100 Shekels from me, G-d will not accept your sacrifice and will not forgive you, no matter how many lambs you offer. First, you have to come to me and say, "I stole 100 Shekels from you. Here is the 100 plus 700 more, please forgive me." I would forgive you, then you can offer your sacrifice, which would be accepted, and you would be forgiven by G-d!
Jesus was a man born of a woman. The God of Israel does not accept human sacrifice! Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Whether Jesus was god in the flesh or not, he was still born of a woman, which would classify him as a human being. Again, the God of Israel does not accept human sacrifice. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:36:54 AM | | In the "New Testament" in Hebrews 9:22 the apostle Paul, or whoever wrote this, states that "without shedding of blood is no remission" of sin. This is in reference to the "Old Testament" Leviticus 17:10 "for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." This is typical of the "New Testament's" ploy of "a text out of context is a pretext". When read in context Leviticus 17:10 is referring to the prohibition of eating or drinking blood! Leviticus 17:10-12 "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." An analogy would be "don't eat dirt, because dirt is going to be used in a ritual that will atone for your sins". Another point comes up with this prohibition on the drinking of blood: Jesus being Jewish and knowing the "Law and Prophets" would not have done what Matthew 26:27-28 says, "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament" ! | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:42:46 AM |
There is no need for the God of Israel to sacrifice Himself. For Him to do so is a contradiction of His commandment to us not to practice human sacrifice. Your reasoning is in the same vein as: G-d commanded us not to bear false witness but what prevents G-d from being a liar and speaking untruths? G-d commanded us not to steal but what prevents G-d from being a thief? G-d commanded us not to murder but what prevents G-d from committing murder? G-d commanded us not to commit adultery but what prevents G-d from committing adultery? Oh, G-d did commit adultery with Mary when He impregnated her through the "holy ghost" while she was betrothed to Joseph, according to the gospel story. He also committed rape, as Mary had no idea she was pregnant until an angel told her, according to the gospels. He also violated the trust between a man and a woman, and Joseph was going to kill Mary until, again, another angel told him not to do it, according to the gospels. So, Christianity has turned the God of Israel into an adulterer, a rapist, and a breaker of Joseph's heart!
This has to be absolutely the most ridicilous thing that i have ever read in a long time.
2 Corinthians 10:5 states, "casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"
I dont even know where to begin with your post but your last sentence sticks into my mind when you stated that Christianity has turned the God of Israel into an adulterer, a rapist and a breaker of Joseph's heart, that could not be further from the truth, the only thing Christianity has offered that nothing else can promise is salvation by grace through faith not of works or deeds because nothing we can do can measure up to the glory of God. Read Isaiah 64:6, it states, "But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away. "
The only way to make us clean again is to cleanse our sin with the blood that only Christ can offer. Taking things out of context, which you do pretty darn well can only lead to an increase in ignorance and pushing yourself further away from the truth.
He raped Mary? I guess it explains the joy that Mary had when she said what she said in Luke 1:46-55, it surely sounds like a happy woman who just got raped, especially when she said, "My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit has rejoiced in God my savior."
Joseph being a "just man" as the bible calls him will never understand the plan of the Lord, so obviously it is going to be confusing for him, who truly does understand the plan of God? Very few do...
Having that said, after he realized who Jesus really was, do you really think he had an issues considering he had the chance to be around the savior of mankind for a large part of his life?
You must have written the most ignorant post I have ever read in my entire life and I just pray that the grace and truth that only Christ can offer can enter your heart to open up your eyes and strive for the spirit and break away from our fleshy thoughts.
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:48:49 AM | Yes he was born of a woman, under the law just as it is written.
Compare Genesis 3:15 to Galatians 4:4 and you will see.
If Jesus was a human being, where is his body? Why was it nowhere to be found, rather an empty tomb existed? If he was a mere man how can he have no sin in him? We all sin.
Psalm 22:16 states, "for dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet"
How did Jesus die? His hands and feet were pierced on the cross.
Psalm 118:22 states"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone."
Who was rejected by men and still to this day? Acts 4:10-12 states, "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Peter recognizes what the Psalmist was alluding too and understands who was rejected and who the Psalmist wrote about nearly 700 years prior to it occuring.
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 2:50:59 AM | | Be that as it maybe, in your humble and gracious opinion. It is still you and not I that believes in a fairy tale, a fantasy...and it appears you are emotionally attached to your faith and easily offended. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 3:01:59 AM | I just think it is absolutely laughable that you can spew out such poppycock. I do not get offended by men because ignorance clouds the minds of many but I was just genuine and i wanted to know if you were serious when you wrote what you wrote, but I now know that you were and I just couldnt believe it, it was actually quite humorous to hear you come up with such stories, are you a conspiracy theorist?
I strive for the Spirit not for the flesh, but as 1 Peter 3:15 states, "Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to make a defense for the hope that is within you."
One day I hope that you see and understand who Jesus was and why he came to earth and accept him as the only way to salvation. Until then, prayer is all that I can offer. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 3:10:05 AM |
Be that as it maybe, in your humble and gracious opinion. It is still you and not I that believes in a fairy tale, a fantasy...and it appears you are emotionally attached to your faith and easily offended.
You seem to be well versed in Jewish scripture, hopefully this link may be of some assistance to you...
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/284/
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Posted: 5/14/2008 7:44:35 AM | A fundamental lack of understanding of the God of Israel exists here. G-d does not require blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sin. Prayer of Jews like Daniel during the Babylonian exile brought to the Jewish nation forgiveness without the shedding of blood. G-d let us return to the Land of Israel and Jerusalem. G-d used the gentile king Cyrus to help us rebuild our shattered homeland.
Neither animal sacrifice nor the scapegoat can possibly take human sin, animal sacrifice is just ritual. G-d is interested in the condition of your heart and your actions, not animal sacrifice. Case in point: You go to the High Priest to offer your sacrifice, say a lamb, but you have stolen 100 Shekels from me, G-d will not accept your sacrifice and will not forgive you, no matter how many lambs you offer. First, you have to come to me and say, "I stole 100 Shekels from you. Here is the 100 plus 700 more, please forgive me." I would forgive you, then you can offer your sacrifice, which would be accepted, and you would be forgiven by G-d!
Jesus was a man born of a woman. The God of Israel does not accept human sacrifice! Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Whether Jesus was god in the flesh or not, he was still born of a woman, which would classify him as a human being. Again, the God of Israel does not accept human sacrifice.
Could you answer why Cain's offering was refused and why Abel's was accepted.....?
Hebrews 12
23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Jesus can mediate between God and man precisely because he is both God and man, Humankind's redemption is completely dependent upon the human-divine union in Christ. If Christ had only been God, He could not have died, since by God's very nature, God cannot die. It was only as a man that Christ could represent humanity and die as a man. As God, however, Christ's death had infinite value sufficient to provide redemption for the sins of all people. In fact, Christ HAD TO BE both God and man to secure mankind's redemption.
This is related to the OT concept of kinsmen-redeemer. In OT times the kinsmen-redeemer was always used of one who was related by blood to someone he was seeking to redeem from bondage. If someone was sold into slavery, for example, it was the duty of a blood relative-the next of kin-to act as that person's kinsmen-redeemer and buy him out of slavery(Leviticus 25:47,48)
Jesus is the kinsmen-redeemer for sin slaved humanity. For Jesus to become such He had to become related to the human race by blood. This indicates the necessity of the incarnation. Jesus became a man to redeem man (Hebrews 2:14-16). And because He was fully God His sacrificial death had infinite value (Hebrews 9:11-28) | |
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Posted: 5/14/2008 8:47:09 AM |
Be that as it maybe, in your humble and gracious opinion. It is still you and not I that believes in a fairy tale, a fantasy...and it appears you are emotionally attached to your faith and easily offended. Given the inflammatory way you present your anti-Christian rants, I see no reason why someone shouldn't be offended. As for emotional attachment to ones own faith, you really are the kettle calling the pot black! Maybe you should enjoy your personal faith and what G-d has revealed to you and leave others the same. It's an idea. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 11:10:19 AM | "I think that creamnsugar chose the wrong words in her explanation and because of this you aren't grasping what she is actually saying...
The Trinity is not a teaching of 3 Gods. nor is a teaching of a God with plural natures. There is One nature in God, and that nature and fulnes is represented in the Father, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit."
The following is from a Catholic site of definitions dealing with the Catholic religion.
TRINITY, THE HOLY
A term used since A.D. 200 to denote the central doctrine of the Christian religion. God, who is one and unique in his infinite substance or nature, is three really distinct persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one and only God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet God the Father is not God the Son, by generates the Son eternally, as the Son is eternally begotten. The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but a distinct person having the divine nature from the Father and the Son by eternal procession. The three divine persons are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial and deserve co-equal glory and adoration.
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.
I actually understand the Trinity definition quite well. I was raised with it as a child as I was baptised a Baptise. Give the afore mentioned definition of God to any grade school child or even a teen and see if they understand it. Most adults don't even understand the language Trinitarians use to describe God.
Now take a look at a piece I got from a on-line Jewish site that speaks of their definition/non-definition of God....
Nothing is affirmed of His substantial nature. The phrase "spirit of God" ("ruaḥ Elohim") merely describes the divine energy, and is not to be taken as equivalent to the phrase "God is a spirit," viz., an assertion concerning His incorporeality (Zech. iv. 6; Num. xiv. 22; Isa. xl. 13). He can not, however, be likened to any thing (Ex. xx. 4-5; Isa. xl. 18) or to any person (Jer. x. 6-7). No form is seen when God speaks (Deut. iv. 15). He rules supreme as the King of the nations (Jer. x. 6-7). His will comes to pass (Isa. viii. 9, 10; lv. 10, 11; Ps. xxxiii. 10-12, lxviii. 2-4). He is one, and none shares with Him His power or rulership (Deut. vi. 4; Isa. xliv. 6, xlvi. 10 [A. V. 9]). He is unchangeable, though he was the first and will be the last (Isa. xli. 4; Mal. iii. 6). All that is, is perishable: God is everlasting (Isa. xl. 7-8, 23-25; li. 12-13). Hence His help is always triumphant (Ps. xx. 8-9, xliv. 4, xlvi. 1-8). He is in all things, places, and times (Ps. cxxxix. 7-12). He is the ever-ruling King (Jer. x. 10). Appearances to the contrary are illusive (Hab. i. 13, ii. 2; Jer. xii. 1-2; Ps. x. 13-14, xxxvii. 35-39, lii. 3-9, lxii. 11-13, xcii. 7-8; Job xxi. 7-9, xxvii. 8-11, xxxv. 14).
"montanan76 you said earlier that YHWH was Christ and not the Father, yet there are many scriptures that consider the Father as YHWH in the Old Testament that youseeem to refuse to address."
I didn't refuse to address anything. There are many more scriptures in the OT that use the name Jehovah-YHWH, that can be seen to have a clearer realtionship to Christ then the Father for the capacity of what Jehovah says and does. Christ stated in the NT that all things were created by him. Christ stated that the Father gave him power to create all things. That alone puts Christ as the speaker in the OT in many verses that deal with God speaking of his creations ect. That is why I say the name Jehovah in the OT is more applicable to Christ and not God the Father.
"As for God's image being physical, that is another stretch of your imagination and is not from scripture either."
Let us understand one thing....it is not I that takes the very verses of the Bible that do speak of God having substance and an image and twists them and corrupts them to fit a different meaning to prove that God has no substance or image and that you know better of the meaning that the author wrote then the author understood who wrote it.
You are part of a long standing generation that refuses to believe that just maybe, what the various authors wrote of God having substance and form might actually be correct. That what they wrote is what they meant.
Examples.....
.....And God said, let US.....You cannot even entertain that maybe the author meant what he wrote in that maybe there was more then one being in the begining of all this instead of your belief that he was talking to himelf.
.....create man in our image and likeness.....You cannot even entertain that God and whom ever else he was speaking to actually meant of all the species he created to live upon this earth, one special species was to look like him. That in your opinion has to be such a blasphemy thought for why would a God who possibly might have an image or form might want a single species of all he created to look like him? Such a shameful way to even contemplate that it could be a possibility. So instead of considering the verses as theyy were wrote in these instances, it is earier for you to deni what was wrote and to redefine what was actually meant to fit your pre-disposed belief.
As you said..... "...that is another stretch of your imagination and is not from scripture either." But like me, it is from your interpretaions and opinions.  | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 11:57:19 AM |
Given the inflammatory way you present your anti-Christian rants, I see no reason why someone shouldn't be offended. As for emotional attachment to ones own faith, you really are the kettle calling the pot black! Maybe you should enjoy your personal faith and what G-d has revealed to you and leave others the same. It's an idea.
Not that it was the right way for him to do it, but are you really surprised RO that a Jewish person, seeing how his faith is being misrepresented by some members of Christianity, might get a little touchy about it and not feel the need to be patient and tolerant anymore as so little patience and tolerance is being shown to him and his faith?
Unfortunately it will just lead to a flame war and the untimely death of this thread but Yaacov is just reiterating forcefully what has already been said and what people don't want to accept. There are fundamentally two different belief here. And apparently, at their most extreme, they are quite exclusive... too bad.  | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 12:02:55 PM | Since when did God need a right hand man?
Since people chose to hurt, kill, destroy eachother, to continually go against His advice. Since His pain of watching us destroy ourselves became too much for Him to bear.
In that quote, I don't think Jesus is saying He is 'before' God or even equal to God.
What is is saying is the truth: He came to provide a means to reconcile with God. You can choose the path of least resistance if you are really tired. Its so much less painful | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 3:31:47 PM |
As you said..... "...that is another stretch of your imagination and is not from scripture either." But like me, it is from your interpretaions and opinions.
montanon76 it behooves me how an omnipresent God can actually have a literal front or back, and how an infinite Being can be said to be contained in a restrictive form. But I can understand how when a person has this belief in God having a containable form that displays limits in a spiritual realm, that they would have an impossible time making any sense out of what is meant by the meaning of trine God.
These are things that should be used in spiritual discernment as to whether they are literal or not...Is Jesus made of bread or H2O, is He a literal 'head' when called the ' Spiritual head of the church and the church the Spiritual body? Is He shaped like a literal 'branch'?
You are entitled to beleive what you want as I have said, but I don't see any common ground in our scriptural studies that I can relate to you with. The usage of 'Us' and 'Our' in Genesis is no great mystery, and it isn't referring to a miriad of creators. The biblical exegesis is that this is referring to the Father. Son and Holy Spirit and the necessity of the 3 roles in the making mankind into God's image. No one is made into the image of God until they are born again of the Spirit through the authority of Christ under the commandment to life from the Father. This is not merely something I have read in a book, but is something that has broken all laws of physics and been manifested within my own being. The entire theme and mystery of God is how He has made mankind into His own image, it starts with the man Adam and progresses until the time of Christ. Creating mankind into the image of God is not something that can be done outside the parameters of time and space, but only if an understanding of God's infionite omnipresence is considered can thisbe clearly seen. To create mankind into the image of God, which is love and life, then mankind must first be subjected into a realm of death, in order that he can be made into something that he isn't already manifesting as.
In my opinion, to suggest that an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God, who is capable of expressing all these attributes to an infinite level, ...to say God cannot manifest Himself fully through 3 roles, for a purpose of creating mankind, is contradictory in itself of God being God. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 4:03:37 PM |
The Jewish people were commissioned at that time to be a light unto the nations and carry the message of monotheism, freedom, justice, equality, charity and peace to the human race.
Interesting concept, maybe try convincing the Palestinians that's your "message"? | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 4:39:03 PM | I suggest that we all turn down the rhetoric a bit. There is room for all of us. A bit of respect for all of our beliefs will go a long way.
And Yes, that goes for the Palestinians as well. No one says that all of the people there could not accept that there are two sides to the issues there, not just one.
And it certainly applies to us here. There is no reason why we can't respect one another and be civil. | |
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| Help me understand Christians please.
Posted: 5/14/2008 5:39:53 PM | Consiq, we agree to disagree and thats cool. But let us also understand this....you believe in a definition of God that is actually not taught of from any specific verses in the Bible UNLESS you reinterpret those verses. And you have to reinterpret many, many verses to substantiate your belief of the Trinity doctrine. That is a fact. That is a plain and simple fact. Not even the Jews who delt with God and recorded revalations given to them by prophets and leaders for 2 to 4 thousand Bible years preceeding the arrival of Christ NEVER EVER contemplated that God was what the early Roman church decided he was. There are Jews today that are more tolerant of monotheisatic Christian beliefs of God because they are near identicle to their own belief of God. But of that part of Christianity that believes God has three persons, they have no respect for them. Google jewish sites and just see how negative they speak against the Trinity belief.
"montanon76 it behooves me how an omnipresent God can actually have a literal front or back, and how an infinite Being can be said to be contained in a restrictive form. But I can understand how when a person has this belief in God having a containable form that displays limits in a spiritual realm, that they would have an impossible time making any sense out of what is meant by the meaning of trine God."
First, you are assuming that God has no substance. You assume that based on your's and other's opinions of certain verses. But in fact there is not a single verse that states that God is without matter/substance. Just because we cannot see something, that does not mean it is not there in some kind of form or substance.
Second, God while being in a restrictive form called Christ was at the same time able to be everywhere, tending to all things as an influence and an intelligence. So your own point proves that God in a restrictive form can still make his influence felt anywhere he wishes it to be felt at the same time. You have just proved your own train of thought false and gave credit to my own train of thought. Thankyou!
"These are things that should be used in spiritual discernment as to whether they are literal or not...Is Jesus made of bread or H2O, is He a literal 'head' when called the ' Spiritual head of the church and the church the Spiritual body? Is He shaped like a literal 'branch'?"
Now your getting a bit ridiculous to give credit to your debasing the possible meanings of things said in the Bible that in you belief you cannot even entertain a possibility as being true to any degree. But that is fine. Just understand that we both understand about many verses that are not to be taken literally like of those you listed above. Your problem is that you have to disect so many verses to sustain your trinitarian belief that it actually causes more problems then solutions.
"You are entitled to beleive what you want as I have said, but I don't see any common ground in our scriptural studies that I can relate to you with."
That is because in believing how you believe, you have taken away from God his ability to do or speak as it was recorded by his writers in various instances. Because I won't do that as you do it, I'm the odd man out to your thinking. You do that, not I. God speaks in a plural form twice in the time of creation. I accept that. I don't really understand it but I accept what was written and that is God is obviously speaking to another being. That is what the verse is implying. Now to you, it cannot mean that. It cannot mean there was another being there with him because it goes against your beliefs. So you have to reinterpret those two plural verses to give an explanation and understanding to fit what you think is correct.
Moses stated he was speaking to God. It does not say how he was speaking to God, in his body, out of his body, in a dream, in reality, it does not state it. But what Moses does state is that he wanted to see God's glory and the glory he wanted to see had nothing to do with prayer, worship, wonderful felt emotions from being filled with the Spirit etc. God said ok. Moses states God set him in a cleft of a rock. Moses states he couldn't see the face of God and live. So as God went by God held his hand up so Moses wouldn't see his face and die. Then when far enough ahead God removed his hand and Moses saw the back parts of God. I take that as it was wrote. I see no need to slice and dice that story to fit some other interpretation of my own as you have to do it with your belief. You are the one that has to literally say, "The story does not mean what it says. It instead means this......"
"No one is made into the image of God until they are born again of the Spirit through the authority of Christ under the commandment to life from the Father."
You see, this is interesting when you speak of your beliefs. Let us substantiate something here to show you how much you reinterpret things to get your meaning....""No one is made into the image of God until they are born again of the Spirit through the authority of Christ under the commandment to life from the Father."
....You do know that what you just said has absolutely no direct Biblical versage support? The word "image" that you have tossed into the subject of how a man can be reborn again in Christ, it was never used by Christ or the apostles as you write it! That is your interpretation that directly supports your belief in the Trinity! Yet what you stated is not in any verse that when born again in Christ you will recieve his image. You are so far out there in reinterpretations that you don't even see what or how your doing it.
"This is not merely something I have read in a book, but is something that has broken all laws of physics and been manifested within my own being."
I can deal with the above so much easier then your reinterpretations anyday!
"The entire theme and mystery of God is how He has made mankind into His own image, it starts with the man Adam and progresses until the time of Christ. Creating mankind into the image of God is not something that can be done outside the parameters of time and space, but only if an understanding of God's infionite omnipresence is considered can thisbe clearly seen."
Are you really understanding that most of what you said above is non-Biblical? What you stated above is from your reinterpretations and not what an actual verse teaches.? Please examine your very own words......"Creating mankind into the image of God is not something that can be done outside the parameters of time and space,..."...you have just said that God in your reinterpretations of the scriptures has limited powers. Do you know that? How do you know that God cannot create anything outside the parameters of time and space??? Is this a Bible teaching or your opinion?
"To create mankind into the image of God, which is love and life,"
Where did you get that from? It is not written in the Bible and you say I'm in left park with my beliefs?????
"...then mankind must first be subjected into a realm of death, in order that he can be made into something that he isn't already manifesting as."
Not even sure I even wish you to explain that one to me...
"In my opinion, to suggest that an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God,..."
Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. I wish to ask, you do understand that except for the word omnipotent that was used (or a word like it) by John the revalator, a single time, none of those words were ever used in the scriptures to describe God. You do know that? So when you use them to prove your point of something concerning God, you are expressly coming from your own opinion, not the verses in the Bible.
"...to say God cannot manifest Himself fully through 3 roles, for a purpose of creating mankind, is contradictory in itself of God being God."
And that is your opinion of having reinterpreted a great many verses to explain what you won't except for face value in several important verses.
I say God can do anything. He can be a 1000 Gods or he can be a single God. He can create anything from nothing or everything from something already existing. I say God can do and be and say anything at anytime. BUT...it is mankind that puts a limit on his capabilities to be, say or do what he chooses.
I am more open on this then you Consiq. I can accept God with or without a substance though I believe the scriptures show he has substance. You cannot accept that rational. If you do you have to put aside your belief in the Trinity doctrine that teaches God has no material substance. You would have to accept the possibilities that God might have a form and image. | |
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