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We don't need anyone to lead us aroound by the nose on this and do all the thinking for us...we are completely capable and intelligent enough to discern the Word for ourselves....

Actually not believing in the Trinity is truly what does not make philosophical sense, beacsue it cannot explain how the Father and Christ can be One with the Spirit and all three can manifest in one manifestation.

To answer your aborted fetus question, if the fetus has a soul, that soul has not sinned, and thus goes to be with God in "Heaven". See. Not difficult at all. Not even a "clever" question to ask.

Where you don't seem to understand (or want to accept) is that several groups, for intelligent reasons that they are entitled to have, have chosen NOT to accept Trinity. "Agree to disagree" means it is our right to have differing viewpoints. I respect yours.

I said: To answer your aborted fetus question, if the fetus has a soul, that soul has not sinned, and thus goes to be with God in "Heaven". See. Not difficult at all. Not even a "clever" question to ask.

DiveFree (in a feeble attempt at humour as a thinly veiled Ad Hominem): said: Hello? Is this thing on? Testing... 1... 2...

Have you forgotten the doctrine of original sin and the conundrum it poses for unbaptized children? Didn't you ever wonder about that?

"Fool" (in my best Mr. T impression)

When I went to confirmation class at age 18, we asked tough questions to the nuns and priests: "What happens to the soul of an aborted fetus?" The answers we got varied, depending on who we asked. This is because the question is a tough one and is not covered literally by text that was written (and frozen) 2000+ years ago. Probably there was some ignorance on the part of the people we asked, too. Nuns and priests are only human!

When it is understood that salvation cannot be earned...

Wouldn't you say that consciously accepting Jesus as the savior is a choice that requires some thought and effort. Are you saying by making that choice, you're not "earning" salvation. Maybe I'm asking you to define what you mean by "earn".

Eventually. There is nothing that states (or implies) that a child is born a sinner, only that the child will eventually sin, that the inclination is towards sin. There is absolutely nothing that speaks about the unborn.

A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind, which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. The word cholalti, which we translate shapen, means more properly, I was brought forth from the womb; and yechemathni rather signifies made me warm, alluding to the whole process of the formation of the fetus in utero, the formative heat which is necessary to develope the parts of all embryo animals; to incubate the ova in the female, after having been impregnated by the male; and to bring the whole into such a state of maturity and perfection as to render it capable of subsisting and growing up by aliment received from without. "As my parts were developed in the womb, the sinful principle diffused itself through the whole, so that body and mind grew up in a state of corruption and moral imperfection."

I still have that list I compiled by the way if you or others might be interested in checking the passages yourself. Its about 132 total. Theres probably more but thats a start right. :)

The complexity of Catholicism and the different perspectives of all these issues that are brought into the forefront were frankly the reason I didn't confirm.

"Sometimes, when I read spiritual treatises, in which perfection is shown with a thousand obstacles in the way and a host of illusions round about it, my poor little mind soon grows weary, I close the learned book, which leaves my head splitting and my heart parched, and I take the Holy Scriptures. Then all seems luminous, a single word opens up infinite horizons to my soul, perfection seems easy; I see that it is enough to realize one's nothingness, and give oneself wholly, like a child, into the arms of the good God. Leaving to great souls, great minds, the fine books I cannot understand, I rejoice to be little because 'only children, and those who are like them, will be admitted to the heavenly banquet'."

That being said, I never had the same trouble that you did. One of the major reasons I was attracted to Catholicism was because of its rich intellectual tradition, from Augustine and Aquinas to Descartes and LeMaitre. I actually like the "complex answers".

Unfortunaetly the wisdom of these fathers and thier invention of the doctrine of eternal damnation, led the church into the dark ages and unspeakable horrors, that it is yet to recover from.

Regine Pernoud stoutly defends this most maligned of historical periods in this splendid book. She clearly shows how mistaken are the ideas about the middle ages as a period of ignorance and superstition. She writes eloquently about the glories of the middle ages, the wonderful cathedrals and abbeys, illuminated manuscripts, music and poetry. She shows how nonsensical is the myth of the 'renaissance' the alleged rediscovery of classical learning. The peopleof the medieval period were quite familiar with classical authors, they simply didn't feel the need to copy them slavishly, unlike the people of the supposedly enlightened period that followed. Nor was the Middle Ages a period of static social order, as she points out, the son of goatherds became a Pope. A very revealing passage describes how the old medieval mystery plays, performed by the guilds, were outlawed due to the jealousy of the professional theatre, actors disliked the idea of 'common people' being allowed to act for the benefit of other common people. The famed 'renaissance' was actually a period of regression, when the common people were deprived of liberties they had enjoyed in previous centuries, and the position of women in particualr became very much more restricted due to the influence of classical misogyny. This is a terrific book, take advantage of Amazon's offer and buy this with Women in the Age of the Cathedrals, they are both marvellous books.

Father Buckley, SJ, has a short but useful forward to this book. He gives examples of a brilliant age during which people saw the abolition of slavery, "checks and balances" on abosolutism, great architecture (the Gothic Cathedrals), the invention of the codex (bound book), the musical scale, and the mechanical clock. He could have easily included the development of bookhand or standard penmanship, and the remarkable achievement of Scholastic Philosophy and its insistence on logic and clear reason.

Among the myths that have been perpetuated is that of the Medieval serfs. These people lived better than slaves during Ancient History, and these people had absolute rights such as access to their land. These men and women could not be removed from their land. While these people could not easily leave, they did indeed have social mobility. Furthermore, Miss Pernoud refers to documents such as deeds, bills of sale, etc., whereby serfs, including women, expanded their land holdings and could improve social mobility. She indicates that some who were serfs were able to go the Medieval monastic schools and later universities and rise in the rank of the Catholic Church and political structure. Miss Pernoud cites women such as Heliose, Peter Abelard's wife, who knew Latin and Greek and composed literary works.

Another myth re the Middle Ages is that of the status of women. Miss Pernoud cites documents of women who were in certain trades and businesses. The Catholic Church authorities were very opposed to arranged marriages,and the Canon Law jurists argued that since marriage was a Holy Sacrament which had to be voluntary, arranged marriages were not binding at least in theory. This is not to say that the Catholic authorites prevented arranged marriages. One should note that women of noble birth could be rulers and queens. One should note that St. Louis' mother was his active regeant until he could assume power and ruled from 1226 to 1270. Women who entered the religious life held land tenure and even controlled both convents and monastaries. Miss Pernoud invites readers to look at documents and sources rather than media nonsense whose talking heads have little or no knowledge of anything.

Miss Pernoud destroys the notion that Medieval women did not have souls. Those who propagate this nonsense refuse to acknowledge the number of Medieval women who achieved sainthood. Miss Pernoud again refers readers to documents rather than popular history (popular nonsense).

One should also note Miss Pernoud's remarks on Medieval law and contractual arrangements. The idea of a Medieval king being an absolute monarch was almost impossible. Kings, lords, and vassals had obligations and rights in their legal and political relations which limited trends towards absolute power. The Catholic Church authorities also worked to inhibit trends of centralized power.

Another important issue that Miss Pernoud examines is that of the Inquisition which has been so badly portrayed. A Medieval inquisition was simply an invesitation based on some problem or complaint. It was simply an attempt of the Catholic authorities to investigate and possibly solve problems. Those who cite the Catholic authorities prosecuting heretics as some sort of evil obviously have little knowledge about the challenge a well organized heretical movement presented. Of particular interest is the challenge presented by the Albigensians. When these heretics caught the attention of the Catholic authorities during the late 12th and early 13th centuries (the 1100s and 1200s), the Catholic authorities made an investigation and did not apply sanctions. However, when Catholic repesentatives were murdered, the Catholic authorities had to act. One must also realize that the Albigensians had political and military support from the southern French and northern Spanish nobility who were only interested in land and conquest. One must also understand that the Albigensains were so dualistic that they were fanatical and dangerous. The Albigensians were opposed to contrats in an age when rights and security were based on contractual relations. Miss. Pernoud mentions that the Albigensians worked against anything that promoted life such as marriage and birth. For these heretics to murder pregnant women or the elderaly was common as the Albigensians destroyed anyone who promoted life. To use a current expression, the Albigensians endorsed the culture of death.

Miss Pernoud uses modern examples of modern inquisitions even though they do not go by that name. Rights groups and humanitarian organizations often make investigations (inquisitions) into serious problems and incidents. These moderns then make suggestions or recommendations. The comparison is obvious.

Another aspect of the inquisitions is one of comparison. Miss Pernoud is clear that very few of those summoned by Medieval inquisitions were even sanctioned or punished. Yet, the 20th century moderns witnessed mass murder, concentration camp brutality, mass slaughter of civilians, etc., all in the name of political ideology and affiliation. One should note that that Medieval inquisitors had to honor due process and paid careful attention to evidence to avoid unjust prosecutions. As Miss Pernoud indicates the abuses of the Inquisiton came later during the eras of the Renaissance/Reformation and the Age of Absolutism. When secular authorities got control of the Inquisiton after the Middle Ages, the abuses mulitiplied. One should note that Catholic authorities protested these abuses.

When popular media types talk about the Renaissance, they betray their lack of knowledge as Miss Pernoud clearly indicates. The Renaissance scholars did not add the Latin and Greek learning. They simply repeated it. On the other hand, the Medieval Scholastics embellished Ancient Greek thought and Latin learning. Medieval vernacular learning was rich and creative,but the Renaissance literature was simply too structured and to imitative of the Ancient Greeks and Romans.

Finally, Miss Pernoud examines the historical methods. Essentially, she argues that history without documents is simply empty opinion and so much propganda and nonsense. One should note that Miss Pernoud gives readers brief excerpts of manuscripts, documents, etc., which refute Media Land historical nonsense.

Obviously, this reviewer is impressed with Miss Pernoud's THOSE TERRIBLE MIDDLE AGES: DEBUNKING THE MYTHS. She carefully makes her case as a historian should. She is clear that historical study should not be politicized nor pandy to popular bias. One should read this book to find why, "A man of science, the historian is, delegated by his fellow man to the conquest of truth (p 141). Miss Pernoud makes this quote meaningful.

Early Christianity A Cheerful Religion.
Darkness at the Advent.
When our Lord announced his religion this world was in a condition of unutterable corruption, wretchedness and gloom. Slavery, poverty, vice that the pen is unwilling to name, almost universally prevailed, and even religion partook of the general degradation. 1 Decadence, depopulation, insecurity of property, person and life, according to Taine, were everywhere. Philosophy taught that it would be better for man never to have been created. In the first century Rome held supreme sway. 2 Nations had been destroyed by scores, and the civilized world had lost half of its population by the sword. In the first century forty out of seventy years were years of famine, accompanied by plague and pestilence. There were universal depression and deepest melancholy. When men were thus overborne with the gloom and horror of error and sin, into their night of darkness came the religion of Christ. Its announcements were all of hope and cheer. Its language was, "Come unto me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." "Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice." "We rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory." Men were invited to accept the tidings of great joy. John, the herald of Jesus, was a recluse, mortifying body and spirit, but Jesus said, "John come neither eating nor drinking, but the Son of Man came eating and drinking." He forbade all anxiety and care among his followers, and exhorted all to be as trustful as are the lilies of the field and the fowls of the air. Says Matthew Arnold, "Christ professed to bring in happiness. All the words that belong to his mission, Gospel, kingdom of God, Savior, grace, peace, living water, bread of life, are brimful of promise and joy." And his cheerful, joyful religion at once won its way by its messages of peace and tranquillity, and for a while its converts were everywhere characterized by their joyfulness and cheerfulness. Haweis writes: "The three first centuries of the Christian church are almost idyllic in their simplicity, sincerity and purity. There is less admixture of evil, less intrusion of the world, the flesh, and the devil, more simple-hearted goodness, earnestness and reality to be found in the space between Nero and Constantine that in any other three centuries from A.D. 100 to A.D. 1800." 3 De Pressense calls the early era of the church its "blessed childhood, all calmness and simplicity."4 Cave, in "Lives of the Fathers," states: "The noblest portion of church history * * * the most considerable age of the church, the years from Eusebius to Basil the Great."

"Sweetness and Light".
Christianity was everywhere at first, a religion of "sweetness and light." The Greek fathers exemplified all these qualities, and Clement and Origen were ideals of its perfect spirit. But from Augustine downward the Latin reaction, prompted by the tendency of men in all ages to escape the exactions laid upon the soul by thought, and who flee to external authority to avoid the demands of reason, was away from the genius of Christianity, until Augustinianism ripened into Popery, and the beautiful system of the Greek fathers was succeeded by the nightmare of the theology of the medieval centuries, and later of Calvinism and Puritanism.5 Had the church followed the prevailing spirit of the ante-Nicene Fathers it would have conserved the best thought of Greece, the divine ideals of Plato, and joined them to the true interpretation of Christianity, and we may venture to declare that it would thus have continued the career of progress that had rendered the first three centuries so marvelous in their character; a progress that would have continued with accelerated speed, and Christendom would have widened its borders and deepened its sway immeasurably. With the prevalence of the Latin language the East and the West grew apart, and the latter, more and more discarding reason, and controlled, by the iron inflexibility of a semi-pagan secular government, gave Roman Catholicism its opportunity.

Oriental Asceticism.
The influence of the ascetic religions of the Asiatic countries, especially Buddhism, contaminated Christianity, resulting later in celibacy, monasteries, convents, hermits, and all the worser elements of Catholicism in the Middle Ages.6 At the first contact Christianity absorbed more than it modified, till in the later ages the alien force became supreme. In fact, orientalism was already beginning to mar the beautiful simplicity of Christianity when John wrote his Gospel to counteract it. Schaff, in his "History of the Christian Church," remarks:

All the germs of (Christian) asceticism appear in the third century. * * * The first two Christian hermits were not till Paul of Thebes, A.D. 250, and Anthony of Egypt, A.D. 270, appeared. Asceticism was in existence long before Christ. Jews, Nazarites, Essenes, Therapeutæ, Persians, Indians, Buddhists, all originated this Oriental heathenism. * * * The religion of the Chinese, Buddhism, Brahmanism, the religion of Zoroaster and of the Egyptians, more or less leavened Christianity in its earliest stages. So did Greek and Roman paganism with which the apostles and their followers came into direct contact.

The doctrines of substitutional atonement, resurrection of the body, native depravity, and endless punishment, are not lisped in the earliest creeds or formulas.7 The earliest Christians (Allen: Christian Thought) taught that man is the image of God, and that the in-dwelling Deity will lead him to holiness.

In Alexandria, the center of Greek culture and Christian thought, "more thoroughly Greek than Athens it its days of renown," the theological atmosphere was more nearly akin to that of the Universalist church of the present day than to that of any other branch of the Christian church during the last fifteen centuries.8

Wonderful Progress of Christianity at First.
The wonderful progress made during the first three centuries by the simple, pure and cheerful faith of early Christianity shows us what its growth might have been made had not the morose spirit of Tertullian, reinforced by the "dark shadow of Augustine," transformed it. As early as the beginning of the second century the heathen Pliny, the proprætor of Bithynia, reported to the emperor that his province was so filled with Christians that the worship of the heathen deities had nearly ceased. And they were not only of the poor and despised, but of all conditions of life--omnis ordinis. Milner thinks that Asia Minor was at this time quite thoroughly evangelized. As early as the close of the Second Century there were not only many converts from the humbler ranks, but "the main strength of Christianity lay in the middle, perhaps in the mercantile classes." Gibbon says the Christians were not one-twentieth part of the Roman Empire, till Constantine gave them the sanction of his authority, but Robertson estimates them at one-fifth of the whole, and in some districts as the majority.9 Origen: "Against Celsus" says: "At the present day (A.D. 240) not only rich men, but persons of rank, and delicate and high-born ladies, receive the teachers of Christianity; and the religion of Christ is better known than the teachings of the best philosophers." And Arnobius testifies that Christians included orators, grammarians, rhetoricians, lawyers, physicians, and philosophers. And it was precisely their bright and cheerful views of life and death, of God's universal fatherhood and man's universal brotherhood--the divinity of its ethical principles and the purity of its professors, that account for the wonderful progress of Christianity during the three centuries that followed our Lord's death. The pessimism of the oriental religions; the corruption and folly of the Greek and Roman mythology; the unutterable wickedness of the mass of mankind, and the universal depression of society invited its advance, and gave way before it. Justin Martyr wrote that in his time prayers and thanksgivings were offered in "the name of the Crucified, among every race of men, Greek or barbarian." Tertullian states that all races and tribes, even to farthest Britain, had heard the news of salvation. He declared: "We are but of yesterday, and lo we fill the whole empire--your cities, your islands, your fortresses, your municipalities, your councils, nay even the camp, the tribune, the decory, the palace, the senate, the forum."10 Chrysostom testifies that "the isles of Britain in the heard of the ocean had been converted."

God's Fatherhood.
The talismanic word of the Alexandrian fathers, as of the New Testament, was FATHER. This word, as now, unlocked all mysteries, solved all problems, and explained all the enigmas of time and eternity. Holding God as Father, punishment was held to be remedial, and therefore restorative, and final recovery from sin universal. It was only when the Father was lost sight of in the judge and tyrant, under the baneful reign of Augustinianism, the Deity was hated, and that Catholics transferred to Mary, and later, Protestants gave to Jesus that supreme love that is due alone to the Universal Father. For centuries in Christendom after the Alexandrine form of Christianity had waned, the Fatherhood of God was a lost truth, and most of the worst errors of the modern creeds are due to that single fact, more than to all other causes.

It was during those happy years more than in any subsequent three centuries, that, as Jerome observed, "the blood of Christ was yet warm in the breasts of Christians." Says the accurate historian, Cave, in his "Primitive Christianity:" "Here he will find a piety active and zealous, shining through the blackest clouds of malice and cruelty; afflicted innocence triumphant, notwithstanding all the powerful or politic attempts of men or devils; a patience unconquerable under the biggest temptations; a charity truly catholic and unlimited; a simplicity and upright carriage in all transactions; a sobriety and temperance remarkable to the admiration of their enemies; and, in short, he will see the divine and holy precepts of the Christian religion drawn down into action, and the most excellent genius and spirit of the Gospel breathing in the hearts and lives of these good old Christians."

Christianity, a Greek Religion.
"Christianity," says Milman, "was almost from the first a Greek religion. Its primal records were all written in Greek language; it was promulgated with the greatest rapidity and success among nations either of Greek descent, or those which had been Grecized by the conquest of Alexander. In their polity the Grecian churches were a federation of republics." At the first, art, literature, life, were Greek, cheerful, sunny, serene. The Latin type of character was morose, gloomy, characterized, says Milman, by "adherence to legal form; severe subordination to authority. The Roman Empire extended over Europe by a universal code, and by subordination to a spiritual Cæsar as absolute as he was in civil obedience. Thus the original simplicity of the Christian polity was entirely subverted; its pure democracy became a spiritual autocracy. The presbyters developed into bishops, the bishop of Rome became pope, and Christendom reflected Rome." But during the first three centuries this change had not taken place. "It is there, therefore, among the Alexandrine fathers that we are to look to find Christianity in its pristine purity. The language, organization, writers, and Scriptures of the church in the first centuries were all Greek. The Gospels were everywhere read in Greek, the commercial and literary language of the Empire. The books were in Greek, and even in Gaul and Rome Greek was the liturgical language. The Octavius of Minucius Felix, and Novatian on the Trinity, were the earliest known works of Latin Christian literature.11

Decadence and Deterioration.
Under such malign influences, however, the broad and generous theology of the East soon passed away; the language in which it was expressed--the language of Clement, Origen, Basil, the Gregories, became unknown among the Christians of the West; the cruel doctrines of Augustine harmonized with the cruelty of the barbarians and of Roman Paganism amalgamated, and thus Africa smothered the milder spirit of Christendom, and Augustine riveted the fetters that were to manacle the church for more than ten long centuries. "The triumph of Latin theology was the death of rational exegesis."

But before this evil influence prevailed, some of the great Latin fathers rivaled the immortal leaders in the Oriental church. Among these was Ambrose, of whom Jerome says, "nearly all his books are full of Origenism," which Huet repeats, while the "Dictionary of Christian Biography" tells us that he teaches that "even to the wicked death is a gain." Thus the genial thought of Origen was still potent, even in the West, though a harder theology was overcoming it.

Says Hagenbach: "In proportion to the development of ecclesiastical orthodoxy into fixed and systematic shape was the loss of individual freedom in respect to the formulation of doctrines, and the increased peril of becoming heretical. The more liberal tendency of former theologians, such as Origen, could no longer be tolerated, and was at length condemned. But, notwithstanding this external condemnation, the spirit of Origen continued to animate the chief theologians of the East, though it was kept within narrower limits. The works of this great teacher were also made known in the West by Jerome and Rufinus, and exerted an influence even upon his opponents." After Justinian the Greek empire and influence contracted, and the Latin and Roman power expanded. Latin became the language of Christianity, and Augustine's system and followers used it as the instrument of molding Christianity into an Africo-Romano heathenism. The Apostles' and Nicene creeds were disregarded, and Arianism, Origenism, Pelagianism, Manichæism and other so-called heresies were nearly or quite obliterated, and the Augustinian inventions of original and inherited depravity, predestination, and endless hell torments, became the theology of Christendom.

Christianity Paganized.
Thus, says Schaff, "the Roman state, with its laws, institutions, and usages, was still deeply rooted in heathenism. The Christianizing of the state amounted therefore to a paganizing and secularizing of the church. The world overcame the church as much as the church overcame the world, and the temporal gain of Christianity was in many respects canceled by spiritual loss. The mass of the Roman Empire was baptized only with water, not with the spirit and fire of the Gospel, and it smuggled heathen practices and manners into the sanctuary under a new name." The broad faith of the primitive Christians paled and faded before the lurid terrors of Augustinianism. It vanished in the Sixth Century, "crushed out," says Bigg, "by tyranny and the leaden ignorance of the age." It remained in the East a while, was "widely diffused among the monasteries of Egypt and Palestine," and only ceased when Augustinianism and Catholicism and the power of Rome ushered in and fostered the darkness of the Dark Ages. Says an accurate writer: "If Augustine had not been born an African, and trained as a Manichee, nay, if he had only faced the labor of learning Greek--a labor from which he confesses that he had shrunk--the who stream of Christian theology might have been purer and more sweet."

Augustinianism Cruel.
In no other respect did Augustine differ more widely from Origen and the Alexandrians that in his intolerant spirit. Even Tertullian conceded to all the right of opinion. Gregory of Nazianzus, Ambrose, Athanasius and Augustine himself in his earlier days, recorded the tolerance that Christianity demands. But he afterwards came to advocate and defend the persecution of religious opponents. Milman observes: "With shame and horror we hear from Augustine himself that fatal axiom which impiously arrayed cruelty in the garb of Christian charity." 12 He was the first in the long line of Christian persecutors, and illustrates the character of the theology that swayed him in the wicked spirit that impelled him to advocate the right to persecute Christians who differ from those in power. The dark pages that bear the record of subsequent centuries are a damning witness to the cruel spirit that actuated Christians, and the cruel theology that impelled it. Augustine "was the first and ablest asserter of the principle which led to Albigensian crusades, Spanish armadas, Netherland's butcheries, St. Bartholomew massacres, the accursed infamies of the Inquisition, the vile espionage, the hideous bale fires of Seville and Smithfield, the racks, the gibbets, the thumbscrews, the subterranean torture-chambers used by churchly torturers."13 And George Sand well says that the Roman church committed suicide the day she invented an implacable God and eternal damnation.14

I suppose it all depends on who we want to credit as giving the truest historical account...

The influence of the ascetic religions of the Asiatic countries, especially Buddhism, contaminated Christianity, resulting later in celibacy, monasteries, convents, hermits, and all the worser elements of Catholicism in the Middle Ages.

The dark pages that bear the record of subsequent centuries are a damning witness to the cruel spirit that actuated Christians, and the cruel theology that impelled it. Augustine "was the first and ablest asserter of the principle which led to Albigensian crusades, Spanish armadas, Netherland's butcheries, St. Bartholomew massacres, the accursed infamies of the Inquisition, the vile espionage, the hideous bale fires of Seville and Smithfield, the racks, the gibbets, the thumbscrews, the subterranean torture-chambers used by churchly torturers."

"If Augustine had not been born an African, and trained as a Manichee, nay, if he had only faced the labor of learning Greek--a labor from which he confesses that he had shrunk--the who stream of Christian theology might have been purer and more sweet."

I must ask regarding the Confirmation statement, why were you doing your confirmation at 18 or did i misread that?
My son is doing his Confirmation on Sunday 1st June this year and he is 12....
Just curious that is all.

And also in regards to Jacobus, again, just another question, you converted to Catholicism didnt you? May I ask a genuine question please? What happened when you converted in regards to the Baptism then Holy Communion then Confirmation or do you not have to do all of those if you convert in adulthood?

Also why does the Bishop tap the kids round the face in the Confirmation?????

I think that David is expressing his grief at his actions. After all, as King he seduced a man's wife, got her pregnant, and tried to cover up his adultery by getting the man to come home and have sex with his wife. When the man showed he was such a great leader as to not leave his men to fight while he stayed at home and bedded his wife, David had him carry back orders for his own death and the death of his men. That's a real bad dude. He repents of his actions and shows incredible humility. He sees the desperate darkness of his soul. He's expressing his sorrow, not writing doctrine on the sinful state of the human soul at conception. I think this is a verse found after the doctrine, not a verse that gave rise to the doctrine. If you look at the historical context of the Doctrine of Original Sin, you find that it is developed as a reaction to another belief that was growing in strength at the time. The doctrine was developed and then the verses were found to support it.

Sometimes, but here I'm just referring to factual changes in history. Certainly, for the anti-Catholic, a Catholic-dominated society will always be "worse" no matter how advanced it is. The same applies for all sorts of other prejudices.

In the excerpts you quote from, John Wesley Hanson objects to "Romanism", "popery" and "Augustinianism" mainly for doctrinal reasons, i.e. he disagrees that they represent "true Christianity".

For instance, he clearly has an axe to grind against asceticism and the monastic lifestyle when he writes:



The influence of the ascetic religions of the Asiatic countries, especially Buddhism, contaminated Christianity, resulting later in celibacy, monasteries, convents, hermits, and all the worser elements of Catholicism in the Middle Ages.


Despite the fact that St. Paul himself encouraged celibacy among his disciples as a gift from God (1 Corinthians 7:7) and encouraged older widows to take pledges of celibacy (1 Timothy 5:9).

You've got to be kidding me!