|
|
|
|
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 1:19:33 PM |
using the title to your car was meant to demonstrate a point of ludicrousy,, its ludicrous to presume "whateverhappens" includes sex as much as it is ludicrous to think it includes your personal posessions being handed over.
That comparison would only be "ludicrous" if sex never or rarely occurs or is hoped for on a date and signing over your car ever, or even sometimes, occurs or is hoped for. Besides, a proper analogy would be signing over one another's car of equal value.
if you seriously stand by your notion that it means "ANYTHNING IS POSSIBLE" then it is as well possible for you to be expecting to sign over that title. i mean,seriously dude,, what isnt on the table here?? and who gets to decide wha gets added into it and what doesnt?
Both people get to decide. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 7:15:59 PM | Your example is extreme.
maybe there is a bit of lucidity in there., yes its extreme. just as presuming that sex is at the top of the list of possibilities is extreme. so apparently you value your car more than a woman being intimate with you. so you are not willing to put your car out there for the list of possibilities but she should be willing to accept your notion of sex being at the top of that list? and here in lies the rub.. men, at least this one,, clearly doesnt understand the value of a woman sharing her body with him. in fact, i think its a fairly accurate presumtion that he devalues it completely as in his car is not worth putting on the list but her body is. weather or not first date sex happens more frequently or not has no bearing on this. the point is, if you are expecting that sex be a list topper then you should at least be willing to hand over your most prized possession. since your body and your intimacy is clearly of no value to you, it wont be on that list of "possibilities". your "hope" is more than just a notion, its an expectation of its even being possible.
interesting indeed,,
ladies and gentlemen,, we clearly have a pure example of MARS/VENUS.
you were just the unfortunate bloke to admit what many men think about this. that its no big deal to expect that she will "put out". and that we as women should not be put off by you all even thinking that way.. gee fella, thanks once again for completely devalueing us as a gender. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 7:18:14 PM | "Both people get to decide."
no hon, ,apparently not, because he has already put on the list sex from her and not added his car. (most guys put a great deal of value on their cars/boats/ cycles/ mantoys of all sorts) | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 8:34:49 PM | To me it means, "Take it as it comes." If I like a girl and we go out a couple times and then she disappears and never contacts me again that doesn't effect my future relationships or create any regret in me.
In short it means to me, "The future is uncertain but I do not fear it." | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 8:48:22 PM | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wrote the above reading the first post and none other as too not be influenced.
They only way that could mean sex is if it is uttered in a sexual contexts. As in:
Date: any chance in having sex?
Uglybelly: Whatever happens happens.
If it wasn't uttered in that context then there is no way of interpting that as sex.
Plus even if it was uttered in that way it would only mean a possibility. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 8:51:25 PM | | I think it means that they think they are going to get some action. And if they do, it's just another activity to them. People don't go around saying "what happens, happens" in their work life or anything else, most people have plans when it comes to serious things. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/26/2008 9:07:57 PM | For me, I'd presume that whatever will happen after the intial plans have been made have been left open depending on what the individuals involve decide to do.
I would not necessarily be thinking or expecting sex to be involved, although at this point in my life, sex is not something I'd be meeting someone for. I'm looking for something I can't get on my own 
It's been said that men think about sex often, so it's not inaccurate to think that some men might get the idea in their head that sex could be a strong possibility. | |
|
| Que Sera, Sera
Posted: 4/26/2008 11:54:16 PM | Jeezit on a Cheezit! Still?
When I infer something from what you say, that does not mean at all that you have implied what I infer. Because 1) you are only, at most, responsible for what you actually say. You are not at all responsible for anything I understand that goes beyond what you say. Whatever you didn't say, that I heard, I made it up. If I choose to believe it, that is also not your responsibility. Nor do you even have any responsibility to straighten me out. I did my own digging.
And, 2) ... there isn't any 2. That's all there is to this sillyup.
Except maybe to say that nobody is under any obligation to make sense to you or even to try. If someone wants to, that's great, but nobody has to, not never. So it's not a practical thing to expect, generally.
Cheers!
Vulf 
VVVVV Loz, Loz, Loz!
...and it is obvious, then no one is going to be asking anything - it is going to happen.
You're describing OPie's puzzle, Loz. It was "obvious" to her boy. He thought there was an unspoken understanding. Even though there was not, you're giving him permission to assume what he wants to.
On the bright side, now we'll all know when we've got you. <|8O
| |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 12:07:44 AM | When I agree to meet someone, I have no expectations
If we have got down to the Meet, then there must have been something that sparked it off, and it would not have been sex talk (cos old prude here don't get into that).
So if you are hitting it off, physical contact made, and it is obvious, then no one is going to be asking anything - it is going to happen.
I think when someone got to ask for sex, then they know in their heart it is not going to happen.
Edit: thens she reads all the other posts, geesh - it was a simple question, why make it so complicated when answering. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 4:16:15 AM |
maybe there is a bit of lucidity in there., yes its extreme. just as presuming that sex is at the top of the list of possibilities is extreme. so apparently you value your car more than a woman being intimate with you. so you are not willing to put your car out there for the list of possibilities but she should be willing to accept your notion of sex being at the top of that list? and here in lies the rub.. men, at least this one,, clearly doesnt understand the value of a woman sharing her body with him. in fact, i think its a fairly accurate presumtion that he devalues it completely as in his car is not worth putting on the list but her body is. weather or not first date sex happens more frequently or not has no bearing on this. the point is, if you are expecting that sex be a list topper then you should at least be willing to hand over your most prized possession. since your body and your intimacy is clearly of no value to you, it wont be on that list of "possibilities". your "hope" is more than just a notion, its an expectation of its even being possible.
interesting indeed,,
ladies and gentlemen,, we clearly have a pure example of MARS/VENUS.
you were just the unfortunate bloke to admit what many men think about this. that its no big deal to expect that she will "put out". and that we as women should not be put off by you all even thinking that way.. gee fella, thanks once again for completely devalueing us as a gender.
There are people that will not, under any circumstances, have sex with someone on the first date. And there are others that will; both men and women. Regardless of whether someone says "Whatever happens" those thoughts are going through the minds of some individuals of both sexes. You consider the notion of first date sex to be extreme. I don't. What others think is up to each individual.
To my knowledge, no one, anywhere, ever would sign over an expensive possession to someone on a first date without expecting something of similar value in return unless they were completely loony. I'm perfectly willing to include signing my car over as one of the possibilities if she can promise me something of equal value in return (and put it in writing). Is she going to take me everywhere I need to go whenever I want and pay it off for me? Under those conditions I'd consider it. Nobody gets something for nothing so to suggest handing a car over is the equivalent of having sex is absurd. If you equate sharing intimacy with a person to giving up a possession they value then you're suggesting that sex is a transaction and I should leave some money on the nightstand when I'm done.
So because I have this "presumption" I don't value a woman? Does that mean if you presume I'm going to give you a big fat wad of money that you don't value men? Or does it mean you just have unrealistic expectations and you stand a good chance of going home disappointed? What of it? Why should my expectations of how a night might proceed matter if I don't act on them or even mention them? And even if I say something so blunt as "Wanna have sex?" is there a problem if she says "No thanks" and I drop the matter? All it means is that I tried to go past her boundaries and she wasn't comfortable with that. You are blowing this out of proportion. If you suggested to me that I should hand my car over to you, I'd chuckle and say "No thanks." I certainly wouldn't be self-righteous and consider it a slight against all mankind because you dared to presume I'd do it.
The whole MARS versus VENUS thing would be a lot less of a problem if BOTH sides communicated more effectively.
Your personal values about what does and doesn't happen on a date aren't shared by all women. Not all women believe that sharing intimacy means that they are "giving up" something. I don't see anything wrong with hoping a date ends in sex. You are "presuming" a lot about me if you think I expect sex. Whatever happens, happens. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 5:10:54 AM | OK FIRST OF ALL,, I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THE FOLLOWING:
You consider the notion of first date sex to be extreme.
i could care less who shaggs off on a first date, third date, fifth month of dating,,, thats beside the point, in fact, i has absolutely nothing to do with the point.
WHAT I DID IMPLY AND SAY WAS THE FOLLOWING:
presuming sex is on that list of "whateverhappenshappens" is extreme. it is just as extreme to have her presume anything of value to you is on that list too. and again, at the risk of repeating myself, using the car was an example as men generally put a great deal of value on their "man toys" . one is no less extreme a thing to have presumed to be on that list than the other is. they are both fairly extreme presumptions to make especially when there has been no specific dialogue about either.
how is it ok in your mind to make the presumption of sex but not ok for me to make that same presumption about your car?
""So because I have this "presumption" I don't value a woman? Does that mean if you presume I'm going to give you a big fat wad of money that you don't value men? Or does it mean you just have unrealistic expectations and you stand a good chance of going home disappointed?""
yes, in fact it does elude to that idea that you have no value to a woman being intimate with you, and yes,, its unrealistic,,, FROM BOTH PARTIES, not just her about that fat wad of cash or the title to your car. BOTH ARE UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS. (i.e. the example of "extreme") it is an EXTREME notion to think anything specific is on that list, primarily sex. its one h3ll of an extreme presumption that "whatever" naturally includes one thing but not the other. since you are the one persuing the notion that sex is naturally on that list,, and you then say,, if your putting up your car you want something of equal value back,,, consider this,, your car is of lesser value than her having sex with you. so you're still coming up short.since you have said that your car is worth more, you cant possibly now say or claim that you being intimate with her is of more value to you than her sharing her body is to her.
""Your personal values about what does and doesn't happen on a date aren't shared by all women."" that much is true,, becaue i do value myself sharing intimacy with a man as very important, as well, i make no judgements on those who chose to share it with whomever whenever. and again, YOUR STATEMENT IS BESIDE THE POINT. my personal value about sex is that its foolish to equate it always with love. most women still today mistake sex for love or some other intimate bond and committment. I DONT MAKE THOSE LUDICROUS ASSUMPTIONS.
the point here to you is this,,,
sex is valueable, sharing ones person with another is of great personal value,,, but when you date someone who makes assumptions about getting that with you, they have essentially devalued it and you. and as you so eloquently pointed out, your car is of great value to you, but you didnt equate that same level of value to her being intimate, in fact you put a lesser value on it. CONSIDER IT THIS WAY, your car depreciated in value the minute you drove it off the lot, a human is priceless.
and just because its too good to pass up,,
"The whole MARS versus VENUS thing would be a lot less of a problem if BOTH sides communicated more effectively."
DUH GUY,,, lmao,, you dont understand the mars/venus philosophy,,,, lol,,
it is the problem since men seem to be from mars and women from venus, WE SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE BUT INTERPRETE IT TOTALLY DIFFERENT. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 5:15:56 AM | To some guys, "Whatever happens, happens," implies that there are no restrictions... a softer, female equivalent to "No Holds Barred. "
It means (in their head) that sex HASN'T been ruled out and may happen if they play their cards right. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 6:25:03 AM | That comparison would only be "ludicrous" if sex never or rarely occurs or is hoped for on a date and signing over your car ever, or even sometimes, occurs or is hoped for. Besides, a proper analogy would be signing over one another's car of equal value.
it has nothing to do with what often happens. what it does have something to do with is that its insane to presume that sex is an option when its not even been indicated as a possibility. which brings us right smack dab back to the original post,, why do a good deal of men make the presumtion so easily about sex when a woman says anything like "whateverhappenshappens"? why is sex so easily added to the list and his "things and bits" arent? he is the one making the assumption not her.
back in the day when i got a call from my "buddy" and invited him over, i knew what he was there for,, I knwe why i had invited him too, it was mutually understood.
this presumption about "whatever" is certainly not mutual or specifically implied. deal with the "extreme" aspect of both things and ask yourself this,, how is it that he gets to make his unreasonable presumption about sex and I dont get to make my unreasonable presumption about his car when neither have been spoken of?
i realize that many men ( and women) presume and hope for sex as part of a date, even first meetings. i find that practice to be unreasonable and ludicrous. i should no more be presuming you may give up your car anymore than he should be presuming i am going to sleep with him. both notions are absurd. not one anymore than the other. both are equally ridiculous.
sometimes in these forums i swear i am talking in circles to ppl who take one tiny bit of a post out of context and run with it. read the entire post, be fairly certain you get the entire point and then reply. this sort of running in circles stuff is tiring and its old. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 8:08:40 AM |
OK FIRST OF ALL,, I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THE FOLLOWING:
You consider the notion of first date sex to be extreme.
i could care less who shaggs off on a first date, third date, fifth month of dating,,, thats beside the point, in fact, i has absolutely nothing to do with the point.
My apologies. I interpreted it wrong.
WHAT I DID IMPLY AND SAY WAS THE FOLLOWING:
presuming sex is on that list of "whateverhappenshappens" is extreme. it is just as extreme to have her presume anything of value to you is on that list too. and again, at the risk of repeating myself, using the car was an example as men generally put a great deal of value on their "man toys" . one is no less extreme a thing to have presumed to be on that list than the other is. they are both fairly extreme presumptions to make especially when there has been no specific dialogue about either.
You're correct that it would be an extreme presumption without the appropriate dialog. Just hoping that events will lead toward a favorable conclusion, whether that's sex or a car is not, in my opinion, extreme thinking. You mentioned earlier that the fact sex occurs on a first date fairly often is beside the point. I think it reinforces my point that expectations from a man about what might happen should reasonably include sex as a possibility. The man knows that it happens. Why then, is it such an extreme thing to think he might "get lucky?" Especially if she says "Whatever happens" and hasn't led him to believe, through actions or words (preferably through words), that sex isn't an option? Remember that, generally speaking, men are frequently after sex anyway so just because you consider it an extreme assumption doesn't mean that a man would.
If you want a comparable equivalent in a man, don't suggest a material thing. How about her proposing an intimate exploration of a part of his anatomy that men in general aren't comfortable with sharing?
how is it ok in your mind to make the presumption of sex but not ok for me to make that same presumption about your car?
To me this is an apples and oranges comparison, but for the sake of argument I'll say that it's perfectly ok for you to presume I'll hand over my car. It's also perfectly ok for me to say "No thanks" without feeling offended. But we're arguing about a situation in which we both have different standards so in your mind it's offensive and extreme whereas to me it's something natural that people think about and the only reason it's such an issue is because society made it one.
yes, in fact it does elude to that idea that you have no value to a woman being intimate with you, and yes,, its unrealistic,,, FROM BOTH PARTIES, not just her about that fat wad of cash or the title to your car. BOTH ARE UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS. (i.e. the example of "extreme") it is an EXTREME notion to think anything specific is on that list, primarily sex. its one h3ll of an extreme presumption that "whatever" naturally includes one thing but not the other. since you are the one persuing the notion that sex is naturally on that list,, and you then say,, if your putting up your car you want something of equal value back,,, consider this,, your car is of lesser value than her having sex with you. so you're still coming up short.since you have said that your car is worth more, you cant possibly now say or claim that you being intimate with her is of more value to you than her sharing her body is to her.
What you call unrealistic, I call a natural part of the dating scene. Sex happens. Presuming that it might happen to me with a lady that hasn't outright said "NO" is not, to me, being extreme or unrealistic. It all depends on who you're with, what their standards are and how both people feel "in the moment." If I find out the hard way that she didn't want sex, well then, all that proves is that that particular woman has different standards than mine. For all I know, the next woman I meet will drag me to the bedroom.
the point here to you is this,,,
sex is valueable, sharing ones person with another is of great personal value,,, but when you date someone who makes assumptions about getting that with you, they have essentially devalued it and you. and as you so eloquently pointed out, your car is of great value to you, but you didnt equate that same level of value to her being intimate, in fact you put a lesser value on it. CONSIDER IT THIS WAY, your car depreciated in value the minute you drove it off the lot, a human is priceless.
I'm not denying that sex is valuable. And you are making assumptions that I don't value the act of sex or the woman that's willing to share her body (as I'm sharing mine with her). Value isn't the issue here. You are saying that it's not ok for a man to believe he might get to have sex with a woman on a first date just because she said "Whatever happens" without qualifying it in some way because in general, women feel that sex (sharing intimacy) is valuable therefore a man shouldn't presume it's even under consideration even though he is bringing the exact same value to the table. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm getting out of this.
If this is about value then each person decides what is or isn't valuable and how much value they think they're getting for what they're offering. " Whatever happens, happens" is irrelevant.
And each person should feel free to put whatever they like on their own Whatever Happens Happens list whether it's sex, suckering a fool out of their car, or goading someone into juggling chainsaws in the nude in front of an army of badgers. Ultimately it doesn't matter what presumptions or expectations a person may have. If what's on my list offends you then all I can say is sorry.
OP, we can conclusively confirm that most men think differently about this compared to most women. By the way, do you happen to know where I can find an army of badgers? | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 10:08:30 AM | Thanks so much guys for answering before reading the thread so answers aren't biased and then reading to discuss...so far it's interesting what the responses have been, and it's really a small margin of men that immediately figure it means something sexual...most seem to take it how I meant it.
Of course I am going to in the future watch what I say and try to eliminate this phrase or further explain it in terms that better convey the message that expecting nothing and then being pleasantly surprised no matter what the outcome is because you had no preconceived ideas.
I did say it for this recent dufus, so he's not the issue but I'd hate to meet men who are actually intelligent and have some common sense and start spewing that there will be no sex to the point where it's just awkward conversation. I do think tho that if the guy's decent he will understand and won't cancel a meeting over it unless of course it was his intention all along. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 1:52:42 PM | | I don't see how that can be ambiguous. I would take ``whatever'' to mean ``whatever.'' Sex is obviously a possiblility, but by the same token, ``whatever doesn't happen, doesn't happen.'' If you really mean, ``whatever happens besides sex, happens,'' just say that. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 2:29:14 PM |
To some guys, "Whatever happens, happens," implies that there are no restrictions... a softer, female equivalent to "No Holds Barred. "
It means (in their head) that sex HASN'T been ruled out and may happen if they play their cards right.
Good call, and to which I'd only add that if it does happen the woman is in no way responsible because "it just happened".
I see this sort of thing in women's profiles all the time. They're very non-committal about what they're looking for, or actually want, and oblivious to why any guy would be interested in them (beyond the fact that they're a female). Usually the relationship type they've chosen is "Friends" or "Hang Out", and there's some statement about how they're "not really looking for anything more right now, but if it happens, it happens". IOW, it happens to them, not because of any active participation on their part. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/27/2008 2:37:25 PM | I interpret it to mean if we meet and something developes....nothing more....and if others interpret it to mean sex...their just crazy! There should be no expectation of sex during or after a first meeting...unless thats all both are looking for. I don't agree with the concept...but I'm sure many people do!
Classic | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 1:53:24 AM | | Good question.........i have used this term several times and it was meant exactly as it is worded. I do not go out to any meeting with any expectations as i was always disappointed when i did. I have been asked to explain this term on occassions and the only real way to put it was: i hope we get along in the real as well as we get along online. If we do, then something may happen in the future. If not,then nothing will happen, present or future. I have been abused by those who cant understand this term but i have also made some great friends out of the ones who have understood it the way it was meant to be. But then again, i'm not looking for a FB or the like so i probably think with other parts of my anatomy. This is definately not just a male orientated misunderstanding. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 2:42:49 AM | Come on; at your age you know why he said this; he didn't care what he said and how he said it; he was drinking and would have said anything to sleep together. To be honest he sounds like a lowlife so I dont understand why you went out with him
In general to most adults it means lets see where our time together will take us and see how we get along. Only to a horny college student, girls gone wild girl, or an idiot would it mean lets see where the night goes and if its ok, we're going to screw. come on. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 3:59:25 AM |
I see this sort of thing in women's profiles all the time. They're very non-committal about what they're looking for, or actually want, and oblivious to why any guy would be interested in them (beyond the fact that they're a female).
And there in lies the rub Ugly Betty............it is open to interpretation based on each person's life experiences.
Life of Leasure: I have this attitude of "whatever happens, happens" not because I do not put any effort into a relationship, nor do I question a man's interest.
I have this attitude because I know as a mature adult, I cannot control any other person besides myself. I am open to a relationship, but will not be heart broken if it doesn't happen, because I am not insecure and looking for a man to "fix" my life.
I actually know exactly what I don't want....but as we all know, lists on profiles are a no-no. So I don't list my requirements or "dealbreakers", but rather talk to the man and get to know him, learning if there are any of my dealbreakers involved before we meet.
As to UglyBetty's original post, and the fact that this wasn't a date, but rather a first meet, which we all usually agree is best.....the guy was out of line to continue to try and get sex from her after she made it abundantly clear it wasn't an option.
I don't actually say the phrase in question, but rather it is my mentality going into a first meet....it might work out that we would be a good match, or it won't. Not life altering either way. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 5:07:25 AM |
Come on; at your age you know why he said this; he didn't care what he said and how he said it; he was drinking and would have said anything to sleep together. To be honest he sounds like a lowlife so I dont understand why you went out with him.
Actually I said it, not him - it was more about how he interpreted it...unless you're referring to his reaction to me saying that, in which case as far as this dude was concerned I agree. It's about making sure I'm not mistaking something that seems like common sense. The lowlife part wasn't exactly clear until I was into the meet face to face - but as I said before, never again will I set a meet up at night (especially on the weekend) or set something up AT ALL if I get a gut feeling - this incident was me trying not to be too judgemental, but turns out my radar is pretty accurate. I'll be willing to bet that was mostly why things turned out as they did in that situation.
In general to most adults it means lets see where our time together will take us and see how we get along. Only to a horny college student, girls gone wild girl, or an idiot would it mean lets see where the night goes and if its ok, we're going to screw. come on.
That's exactly why I started this thread - as far as I knew that was always the meaning of that phrase...and it seems like a small majority here actually take it as sexual, in which case I won't worry too much about it.
And there in lies the rub Ugly Betty............it is open to interpretation based on each person's life experiences.
I agree that male or female, we all do tend to interpret based on our upbringing and/or personal experiences to a point as well.
Great responses, tho. | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 8:41:22 AM | | For me it means at this stage of my life, I am shut down and not open to anything, should something happen to change that then so be it, whatever happens happens, | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:19:12 AM | It's safe to say there are lots of guys looking for the proverbial "green light", especially at clubs or bars. So if a lady isn't interested in a guy who's making an approach, it generally serves her best interests not to say anything that might be construed as being "waved in", so to speak. Some guys would obviously interpret this marginal catch-phrase as a sign of encouragement (note I said SOME guys), or that he's earned some sort of compliance and is moving to the next pick-up phase.
Other phrases that are definite double-entendres shouldn't be uttered by women who don't consider themselves to be "teases" and aren't interested in the men they are speaking to. Please ignore this comment if you like enjoy being a "tease". | |
|
| Whatever Happens Happens
Posted: 4/28/2008 9:33:43 AM | I'm sorry, but you're wrong, bike. No one, including women, is responsible for what someone else infers. Women (and men, too) can say whatever we like. If somebody reads into it, that's his problem.
Your advice is maddeningly impractical. How exactly would a woman evaluate something she wants to say? How would she make certain that the jerk-off in front of her won't misunderstand, willfully or otherwise? You are actually advising women to take responsibility for what somebody else thinks! Even if that were not impossible, it would still be immoral, not to mention annoying as hell to those of us who take responsibility for ourselves.
Cheers!
Vulf | |
|
|
| Page 5 of 7
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 |
|
Home
login 
