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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Photo ID required to vote, good or bad      Mod Threads Home login  
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 Author Thread: Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 226
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 11:36:39 AM
Actually, they are exactly the same, since BOTH are State's Rights, not individual rights.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 227
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 1:25:04 PM
Exodusi1: Getting to the poll is not required to vote, it most certainly is if you want to vote. As for the "free" rides liberal organizations provide, who pays for the gas for those vehicles. Those liberal organizations mainly function on grants which is a nice way to say tax dollars, the folks who run the liberal organization aren't going to pay for gas out of their pocket especially if they are making several trips to the polls.

As for giving a ride to those who cancelled out your vote, your a good man Charlie Brown, not many would have done the same. The 24th ammendment abolishes the poll tax, it doesn't say a one time fee or photo ID can't cannot be used. Now if you consider a photo ID requirement a fee then read more better the constitution of the U.S.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 228
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 1:35:29 PM
Actually, I am well versed in the Constitution and Constitutional History.

The organizations don't use tax dollars, they use volunteers. There is no litmus test required. Democrats want everyone to vote, myself included.

One friend is blind, so I drove him, the other was too poor to afford a vehicle. I paid for the gas for each, neither voted in my poll station. I lived in the country (15 miles out of town.
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 229
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 7:21:25 PM
I think we should be very clear on the wording of the 24th Amendmant.


Amendment XXIV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


It says poll tax or OTHER TAX. Now, I consider what the government requires a person to pay in order to get there drivers license to be a tax. You can call it what you will, but to me, anything charged by the government is a tax. Therefore, according to the 24th amendment, this would violate the 24th amendment to require a photo ID unless they were being provided for free, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

As far as giving rides to the polls, myself and the vast majority of other people have these really awesome pieces of equipment that are an absolute wonder. In fact, most people have two of them. Amazingly enough, we don't even realize that we have them, because we have taken them for granted. That and American Society has become extremely lazy so the wonders of this technology is never used to its fullest potential. Anybody figured it out yet? You use them everyday and probably don't even realize it. And they are just as good of transportation as getting to the polls.

And for those who don't have access to this great piece of technology because of different reasons, or just refuse to use it, they do have absentee ballots to. Getting to the polls or obtaining a ballot is NOT an excuse to not vote. My opinion is anyone who does use it as an excuse should have their citizenship revoked right then and there.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 230
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 8:19:09 PM

Now, I consider what the government requires a person to pay in order to get their drivers license to be a tax.


There are other forms of valid ID besides a driver's license. Again, it's not a big deal to make sure a U.S. Citizen can identify himself/herself without having to pay for a driver's license. The point is to include all U.S. Citizens as voters and to exclude illegal aliens and other non-citizens. It's pretty simple.
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 231
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 8:28:00 PM

There are other forms of valid ID besides a driver's license. Again, it's not a big deal to make sure a U.S. Citizen can identify himself/herself without having to pay for a driver's license. The point is to include all U.S. Citizens as voters and to exclude illegal aliens and other non-citizens. It's pretty simple.


What other forms of photo ID's (since that is what we are talking about) are valid and do not cost money? Just curious.
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 232
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 8:36:21 PM
California issues a state ID which has a picture and is used for identification purposes (it is not a driver's license, but an ID card). Most states probably have an equivalent card. I also believe that low-income citizens can get the state ID card free of charge.

Again, the point is to identify someone, not to charge them. The whole "poll tax" argument is an attempt to divert people from the point that NON-CITIZENS SHOULD NOT BE VOTING.
 shammgod

Joined: 5/3/2008
Msg: 233
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 8:38:42 PM
Ok, so let's call the cards "free" and then raise taxes slightly. Problem solved.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 234
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/14/2008 8:46:30 PM
Hey, problem solved!!! Since illegal aliens DON'T VOTE!
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 235
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:52:15 AM
I don't understand how you anti-government people think an ID card required for voting is the same as a poll tax. I know and understand what the 24th ammendment says. It is talking about a poll tax or any other tax not proof of identification. It simply says that a citizen cannot not be prevented from voting if they don't pay a poll tax or any other tax. People are charged fees for ID', driver's license, and so on not taxes. There is a difference between a fee and a tax and some how Exodusi1, you and a few others seem to think they are the same.

A tax is a tax is a tax, a fee is a fee is a fee; the is a difference.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 236
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:23:12 AM
No there isn't. . . If we said you had to own a helicopter to vote. . . That isn't a tax, so would that be OK?

It isn't about how much, there can be NO cost associated with voting, or it constitutes a poll tax.

And, I am NOT anti-government. I have done my part in defending this country and would have done more if possible. I AM defending the constitution, what part of that don't YOU understand?
 spitfire6844

Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 237
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:02:16 AM
The Constitution, as great and wonderful as it is, is not the subject of this thread. The OP asked a specific question about photo IDs as a way to ensure that voters are actually eligible to vote. There have been problems with voter irregularities all over the country concerning non-citizens attempting to vote, especially in the Southwestern states. It's definitely an issue worth addressing. Why not devote a portion of state lottery revenues or excise taxes (on cigarettes, alcohol) to print free ID cards for those U.S. citizens who have no other form of ID? It's definitely worth it.

The OP is on-point, and anyone who disagrees with it really should come up with an alternate solution as to how to address this legitimate problem.
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 238
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:09:42 AM
Even the experts can't agree that there is a firm line between a tax and a fee. Case in point, from the Foundation for Economic Education


A Tax Is Not a User Fee!
By Lawrence W. Reed

Lawrence Reed is president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy (www.mackinac.org), a free market research and educational organization in Midland, Michigan, and chairman of FEE’s Board of Trustees. As a member of the Headlee Amendment Blue Ribbon Commission, he helped write the portion of the commission’s report dealing with the user fee versus tax issue in 1994.

Politicians and bureaucrats are notorious for manufacturing euphemisms—clever but deceptive substitutes for what they really mean but don’t want to admit. That’s how the phrase “revenue enhancement” entered the vocabulary. Some of our courageous friends in government couldn’t bring themselves to say “tax hike.”

At all levels of government, a bipartisan effort to impose new or higher taxes and mislabel them as seemingly less onerous “user fees” provides another example. Sometimes, a user fee is indeed a user fee. Other times, it’s not that at all. Instead, it’s a tax hike disguised by a misnomer.

When someone chooses to use a government service and pays for it, he’s paying a user fee. Furthermore, what he pays should cover the cost of the service he is receiving; if it goes for something he isn’t getting or doesn’t want, then he’s paying a little of both—a user fee plus a tax. Taxes differ from user fees in that paying them isn’t a matter of choice and what you pay is not tied directly to what you’re using.

In principle, true user fees make a lot of sense, especially if you want people to understand that nothing from government is truly “free.” Indeed, the more government finances itself through user fees instead of taxes, the less it looks like government and the more it gets out of the redistribution business and begins to resemble private firms operating in free markets.

Instinctively, most people sense a certain fairness about true user fees. You pay for what you get, and you get what you pay for. Most people understand and support user fees for such things as toll roads, harbors and waterways, and even parks and recreational facilities. If they understand that private enterprise would probably do a better job with these things, they know that at least a user fee approach for government services gives them an opportunity to make a rational economic choice: buy it if it’s worth the price, patronize an alternative, or do without. All this makes for useful background to a victory that advocates of liberty and sound economics recently won in my state of Michigan.

In 1978, Michigan voters approved the Headlee Amendment to the state constitution. Among other provisions, the amendment requires voter approval before a tax can be imposed or increased. In its 1994 report, the Headlee Amendment Blue Ribbon Commission found that a growing number of Michigan townships, counties, and cities were skirting that requirement by mislabeling certain taxes “user fees.” The commission recommended that the legislature clarify the difference between a tax and user fee. The Michigan Supreme Court now has done what the legislature never got around to doing. Here’s how the case arose:

In 1995, the city of Lansing adopted Ordinance 925, known by many as the “rain tax.” It provided for the creation of a storm water enterprise fund “to help defray the cost of the administration, operation, maintenance, and construction” of a new storm water system that would separate sanitary and storm sewers. Heavy rains had occasionally caused the city’s combined sanitary and storm sewer system to overflow, discharging untreated and partially treated sewage into the Grand and Red Cedar rivers. Fifty percent of the 30-year, $176 million cost of the system was to be financed through an annual “storm water service charge” imposed on each parcel of property in the city. The city maintained that the service charge was a user fee and therefore did not have to be put before the voters for approval. But Lansing citizen Alexander Bolt had read the constitution and knew a tax when he saw one.

Bolt challenged the Lansing “rain tax,” taking the case all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court, a majority of which on December 28, 1998, declared, “We hold that the storm water service charge is a tax, for which approval is required by a vote of the people. Because Lansing did not submit Ordinance 925 to a vote of the people as required by the Headlee Amendment, the storm water service charge is unconstitutional and, therefore, null and void.” The decision established an important precedent that puts municipalities on notice that the voters who approved the amendment intended for it to be enforced, not subverted.

The Court’s majority opinion refreshingly argues that “a primary rule in interpreting a constitutional provision . . . is the rule of ‘common understanding.’” In other words, in this case the intent of the voters should be of utmost importance, as opposed to some judicially activist fabrication. The Court affirmed that the voters intended to place limits on taxes and governmental expansion.

Just what exactly distinguishes a user fee from a tax? The Court advanced three main criteria: (1) a user fee is designed to defray the costs of a regulatory activity (or government service), while a tax is designed to raise general revenue; (2) a true user fee must be proportionate to the necessary costs of the service, whereas a tax may not be; and (3) a user fee is voluntary, whereas a tax is not.

The Lansing ordinance failed all three tests of a user fee. The Court determined that it constituted “an investment in infrastructure as opposed to a fee designed simply to defray the costs of a regulatory activity” and agreed with the dissenting opinion in a lower court ruling that the revenue from the charge was “clearly in excess of the direct and indirect costs of actually using the storm water system.” The Lansing rain tax applied “to all property owners, rather than only to those who actually benefit,” contrary to a genuine user fee. Moreover, the ordinance “failed to distinguish between those responsible for greater and lesser levels of runoff.”

Most plainly, the rain tax was utterly involuntary. True user fees are only “compulsory” for those who choose to use a service, but Lansing property owners in this case had “no choice whether to use the service” and were “unable to control the extent to which the service” was used.

The Court’s majority concluded by quoting the Headlee commission report, “This is precisely the sort of abuse from which the Headlee Amendment was intended to protect taxpayers.” Amen!

The message is clear to Michigan municipalities: You now have no legitimate excuses for mislabeling taxes as “user fees.” Be honest. If it’s a tax, put it before the voters as the Headlee Amendment requires and make your best case. You can’t junk the constitution just because you want the money. It’s a refreshing message that ought to be applied everywhere.

http://www.fee.org/Publications/the-Freeman/article.asp?aid=4409


Maybe if we called them all fees instead of taxes, then we could impose so many more limits on voting.

We can call it the Income Fee. That way, if you don't earn income then you can't vote.

We can call it the Property Fee. Going back to the original principal of the constitution that you must own property to vote.

There are so many "fees" out there that could be linked to voting. Maybe we should start instituting some of those.

The point is that, as the article states "Taxes differ from user fees in that paying them isn’t a matter of choice and what you pay is not tied directly to what you’re using." This is a photo ID that isn't a matter of choice, therefore, according to this person, it would constitute a tax, therefore be in violation of the 24th amendment to the Constitution.

As far as being anti-government, I don't consider myself anti-government. I consider myself exponentially more patriotic then a lot of people because I'm willing to question what government does. That doesn't make me anti-government. It makes me a smart citizen. It makes me weary of just following the status quo and allows me to think for myself. Isn't that what we want from a democracy? People who question the government? Or are we all suppose to be lemmings who just follow along mindlessly and do what the government says?
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 239
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:42:39 AM
No, we are on topic, it is a Constitutional question, which demands Constitutional discussion.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 240
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:44:23 AM
Exodusi1,

now you're being just plain silly, a helicopter is not the same as a photo ID, we can get people who can't afford an ID one but we can't do the same with the helicopter now can we? I agree it's not about the amount, it's about the difference between a tax and a fee. You say you are denfending the constitution, just how are you doing that? I realize we don't agree on this topic, but for the minor arguements you make against the requirement for a photo ID to vote I believe thearguements for it far out weigh the ones against. And you're wrong, there can be no tax associated with voting, big diference from cost, again you see it as a tax I see it as a way to help preserve a citizen's vote. I can show up to any poll in my stste and vote, all I need is a bill with an address in that district, do you waht that means? I can vote as many times ans I want, not legally but by the time they weed out a few of my illegal vote twice as many will get counted. What's to stop me doing that, morals, values and doing the right thing? I can use a dead person's name or even better sell a dead person's name to someone not qualified to vote. Without proof of who you are at the polls it's a crap shoot and instead of fixing the problem we just complain about the same old stuff election after election. Is photo ID requirement going to end all this voting fraud, of course not but it will make it much more difficult to do it.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 241
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:59:14 AM
Ezzee, that makes sense. And providing a free ID to those who can't afford on meets the 3 criteria you listed in your post. It will dfray the cost of the regulatory service because many states require their citizens to have one but some cannot afford it so a one time fee will be used to get one for those who can't afford it. And will be proportionate to the cost of the service be it will be a fraction of the cost per person. I'm sure there are more than enough people in any state that would voluntarily pay a one time fee to be used to get the very few in their individual states a photo ID.

I still disagree, I can't see how a photo ID is a tax when it comes to vote. If that is the case then having to take a utility bill to show proof that you live in a certain district to vote in that district is a tax, people should then be allowed to vote as many times as they want whenever they want. Showing a utility bill or something proving your address is within a distrct come any election is no different than showing a photo ID according to your view.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 242
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:07:47 PM
Article 1 Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.



According to this a poll tax can be legal.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 243
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:09:00 PM
Name one, JUST ONE illegal alien caught voting. . . .

It is a lie, to keep people like you occupied, while they steal our elections with voting machines and by eliminating legal residents from voting.

I protect the Constitution by preserving its integrity, by understanding what it means and by educating others so they understand the Constitution. You may risk your life for it, but if you don't understand it, you are not doing your job as an American Citizen. It is all of our responsibility to preserve our form of government and it is under attack from within. . .

Signing statements are a prime example.

I used the "helicopter" example to show how rediculous it is to require ANYTHING for someone to vote. Do you want to be stopped on the border as you cross from Nevada to Utah, to check your ID, to make sure you are allowed to cross? To, in essence, check your papers. Why do you think liberals rail against these things? We are trying to protect this country from becomming a Communist or a Facist state. We believe in the rights of man, we defend them with our lives, money and effort. What do you think the sole purpose of the ACLU is? To protect the Bill of Rights.

Your responsibility as a Marine is to defend the Constitution, your responsibility as an American Citizen is to understand and protect it!
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 244
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:33:43 PM
lethrnek ,

If we just want to take the articles of the Constitution, and only the articles of the Constitution, then I can make my argument that no one has the right to vote even stronger.

Unfortunately, the Amendments are part of the Constitution, and the 24th Amendment says poll taxes or other taxes that have to be paid in order to vote are illegal.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 245
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 2:45:34 PM
Ezzee,

I am not implying to only take the articles of the constitution into account, I was merely ponting out that in part of the constitution it says our government has to right to tax and in another part of the constitution it says poll taxes are not a grounds for denying a person the right to vote. Our constitution ws written by men, as great men as they may have been they were merely men. They couldn't have seen intot he future to see what might have happened. The constitution allows for government to make rule not the peopleand these rule and laws are to be in accordance with the constitution. So, if one part of the constitution says the governemnt can tax and another says it is illegal for voting purposes which is right?
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 246
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 2:48:42 PM
The Constitution is and always has been a living document. What that means is that it evolves with the times and has the ability to be changed and amended. Any Amendments to a Constitution take precedent over the constitution itself. If they didn't, then Blacks would still count as 3/5 a person, and Bill Clinton would probably still be our President.
 lethrnek

Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 247
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:20:52 PM
Exodusi1,

You you protect the constitution by education others as to how you interpret and understand it. The reason for this topic and many others is because we interpret it differently. Who's right and who's wrong in their interpretation. The constitution grants states the ability to make laws governing the individual states, so by that it would perfectly ok to have your "papers" cheked when leaving your state and entering another. It's no different then being pulled over for speeding and have the officer ask for your license, registration and proof of insurance even though the state in which you reside may not require auto insurance to drive. Responsibility is not only to understand and protect the constitution but to follow it. If there is a law requiring something then we must follow it, we don't have to like it, lf we don't follow it and get caught then we pay for it.

You have no idea what my responsibilities as a Marine are, one is to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic,it's the oath all service member take.

I'm not saying I want this country turned in a communist one but we do have to have laws and rules to follow and those laws may not be to everyone's liking but as long as they are constitutional we must follow them. The ACLU is as usless as tits on a bull, they pick and choose, Igone to the ACLU a couple of times for work related mistreatment, they caved into the union and said I'd be better off hiring a personal attorney. An ex-girlfriend had been harassed at work by another minority woman and everytime the IRS came up with a solutin the other woman complained to the union and ACLU. When my ex complained to the IRS union they said sorry we can't defend two different employees in the same issues and beside the other woman got the ACLU involved and our hands are tied. That is how liberal agencies treat a woman who has given 20 years service to the IRS and worked her way up from a secretary to a manager. Who was looking out for her rights, where was the union, ACLU, she even went up the chain and was told becaus of her complaint the ACLU was involved. This other lady physically bumbed and shoved her on several ocassions.

I believe organizations like the ACLU and NAACP were started with good intentions but throughout time they have become more political and pick and choose who's right they defend.

Illegals voting is not a lie I see it everytime I vote, I have called and complained about it, each time I was sked for my name which I gave and if I had proof it happened. Everytime They say we'll look into it and call you if there's a need. When illegal go the it IRS and file a tax return to which they are entitled under IRS rules, they always try to get tax credits they don't qualify for, when asked to produce the required documnets to allow the credit they don't have them and they don't have them because they are illegals and yet I have seen a few of them in line voting in my district. But since they took the time to break the law and enter this country illegally, what's the harm in letting them vote, nothing should be required to vote, as long as you can get to the polls before closing time your votes counts.

If your a citizen of this country and you vote, it is your sole reponsibility to make sure you voted for who you want and to make sure you voted accurately and correctly according to your choosing. The first time I voted electronically I went through the screen to make sure all my selections were marked, why because it's my vote my responsibility. If you vote by hole punch ot computer, it;s the individuals responsibility to ensure they do so accurately. Making a mistake at the polls then saying oops, I voted for the wrong person or I didn't understand who the voting machine worked then asking to vote again it plain wrong.

It's rediculous to require anything from anybody to vote, it's your vote protect, protecting a vote by allowing anyone to vote is no protection at all.

We can atleast agree to disagree.
 a bit nomadic

Joined: 6/14/2006
Msg: 248
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Photo ID required to vote, good or bad
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:22:41 PM
lethrnek, as far as I can tell nobody is arguing against following the law. I know that my arguments have been addressing the question of the WISDOM of laws regulating voting in this way. I've never felt that this particular issue is relevant simply because of its immediate practical questions--like is it "hard" for most people to produce an ID, or is it "good" to prevent those who shouldn't vote from voting. No, to me the importance of this is BIGGER than that.

Your POV seems to be that this measure "protects" MY vote--or the votes of American citizens at large. I don't see that--I see it as doing the opposite. My vote isn't protected by requiring me to provide an ID when I vote--on the contrary, it's a means by which I (or anyone else) could be denied my right to vote if taken to its logical implications. Sure, that's unlikely to happen to ME, because I can prove who I am and I'm not a marginal person at all....right now, in May 2008. But the issue, again, is bigger than its immediacy or my or your immediate circumstances....because What's Next? This is a STEP, and most critics see it in that way.

It's all well and good to convince Americans that nothing is about principle and nothing that we do in REACTION to the illegal immigrant "problem" or the Islamic terrorist "problem"--these "problems" that are so easily exploited by govt for the sake of agendas that really have little to DO with them as REAL "problems" at all--can have any meaning or relevance beyond the exact issues that these things are constructed to appear to be addressing in a limited way..... but if we THINK we can see bigger than that and (IMO) we have to be careful about so complacently thinking it's no problem at all for our government to take more and more control to itself when it comes to our fundamental rights----or the fundamental bases of our liberty.
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