| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 4/29/2008 1:41:26 PM | yes I am aware of Maj General Smedley Butler and I am aware of his stance on war - war as a racket. While there certainly are elements of a 'racket' occuring, there are necesseties that cannot be overlooked.
the middle east is unstable - so long as it is unstable, it remains a danger to the united states - over and above international law, the united states can and will do what is in its best national security and yes, economic interests.
does the corporatizing of the war suck? yes. does that invalidate our presence and right to be present in the reigon? Absolutely not. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 4/29/2008 2:59:19 PM | The Iraq for Oil thing's really working out for us isn't it? We sure got bunches from it.
We went to Iraq because of Iran and Syria. No, it's not right at all but that's why. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 4/29/2008 3:07:51 PM | I agree. and this notion of an oil war is insulting - 360 a gallon? no benefits seen here.
I say we need to have a presence in the middle east until such time as it is stabilized and yes, at the risk of making people mad - taken kicking and screaming into the 21st century. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 4/29/2008 4:12:54 PM | Oil is a lot of different problems, supply not on the higher points on the list.
We don't have refining capacities. Units at existing refineries shutdown and pipelines shut down for disrepair and labor disputes. Then the price of a barrel of oil skyrockets amid reports of a couple of guys on a ship shooting rubber bands and some spitwads at a nearby speed boat. The weak dollar.
Great news though on the economy and profit reports. The oil companies are posting huge profits for the quarter. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 12:20:55 PM | AngelKing, I hear you, man .... really .....we live in a great country and I dont think anyone who criticizes it thinks less of it.....in fact, like myself, I think they love our country and criticize the government.....they arent one and the same thing.
Look at whats been happening. Big Oil has put independant gas stations out of business over the past 20 years, you find the same half dozen gas stations all across America now and they wield incredible influence in the government. Obviously, we are getting screwed at the pump while they make record, huge profits........so their influence is not for our benefit, is it.
Look at agriculture, farming, ranching, fishing .... small, independants are also going out of business by the droves ... big business HATES competition, they only want other huge businesses so they can collude and control and monopolize. Big AG is also heavily influencing government .... and look at the price of food now, it's not to our benefit. My guess is that with this so-called food crisis, Big AG companies are also seeing huge, record profits, too.
Capitalism is fine, but its gotten screwy. The old economics of supply and demand are gone ........gas, food, etc. are NOT in short supply!
These things are having a ruinous effect all over the world and right here in America. Our tax dollars...........which are paid by people and shold be FOR people, if you consider that socialistic.... are being sucked up and not benefitting us anymore.
Nice that you wave your flag and all, but this government is SCREWING EACH AND EVERY AMERICAN and not taking care of business at home.
You should be angry about that, not support it or criticize those who dont. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 12:28:43 PM | Angelking:
""""I say we need to have a presence in the middle east until such time as it is stabilized and yes, at the risk of making people mad - taken kicking and screaming into the 21st century."""
I dont think we can occupy a major middle eastern country and colonize it for its resources and expect to call that stable. They will not have it and that is what it is doing. And anyway, we were sold the war in Iraq on false pretenses. If we wished to invade and occupy countries "for their own good", that should have been debated in Congress and in the Senate and we should be clear about it.
There ARE radical elements in the ME who are a danger, I believe mostly to other countries there where they want to establish theocracies, like the Taliban in Afganistan....but those are internal matters. Some are simply international criminals.
They will come to the 21st century in their own time and way, by honey and not vinegar, IF they so choose. Many of those people have lived the same way for thousands of years.........they may not want malls or iPods or dirty movies or corporate control or violence or see their families broken up as we have. that is their choice..........its our job to take care of AMERICANS, not rule the damned world. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 1:05:38 PM |
it's about transformation of the Middle East which many people don't have the ability or desire to visualize...because the results are not immediate.
Not to be an A Hole but I just love this one... this is pure fanatical insanity. Hitler would have loved this. Say this outloud with your best Hitler impersonation-
Vee have a vision for you das people of de middle east. You vill learn to live as vee do. You vill learn to live by our values and our culture. Yours is unacceptable in its current condition. Because vee love you, vee are going to take your country and if vee haff too, we will bomb and kill your children to do it. We know you are so stupid you cannot see what the future can hold for you if you were to just surrender. You to wil have McDonalds, Alcohol, Porn, A failing education system, we will carefully edit the information you need to take the thinking out of it for you. We have in place a multitude of time wasting distractions like sports, television,movies,theme parks,managed mountain trails,managed fishing spots,managed humting spots, Girls Gone Wild Videos so you do not need to vorry about managing your country anymore. Sieg Heil! Vat we dont want you to know is that you vill vork 60+ hours a veek as will your spouse just to stay above vater. Vee will offer you easy credit that you will spend on sings that will give you temporary comfort like that new boat. You vill then be so far in debt that you vill just verk until you die because vile you paid into social security vee have spent it on programs like foreign aid to MY, I mean our friends who need help since they follow our same path. I cant understand why anyone would want to join up? Little things like culture, traditions, whether yo like them or not oh enlightend one, nation pride etc....they have no place in our new world order.... | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 1:12:56 PM | | It looks like Angel King has been receiving a lot of lessons here. Just to make sure that you are absorbing some of what has been conveyed, Angel: Can you re-define "country"? | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 1:21:50 PM | anyone who compairs anything in modern times to either Nazi germany or Stalinist Russia is immediately an idiot. It is such a far reach that I am incapable of even holding a conversation with someone who actually believes such views. Even if you believe tactics are similar(which they are not) the pure scale of the differences are absolutely immence.
I don't agree with current US foreign policy....and I mean at all. but i mean come the heck on. making statements like this are 1) childish 2) only good to make it sound way worse then it actually is. Only children and idealist liberal college students mak claims that anyone is even remotely close to the hatred and hypocracy that hitler and the Nazi's were. Both can easily be ignored | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 1:49:06 PM | .
Well SS,
Euphemizing it into oblivion certainly does not change our situation.
Maybe you have been under a big rock sleeping and not heard that we will have a national id card well on its way and they now are conducting house and business raids to give out traffic tickets. The elections are rigged and we have become the judge and jury as to what is expected for every country on this planet.
At least liberal children and and college students have a clue and are capable of holding a conversation about it.
Many others here can point out the pages of atrocities and liberty infractions which are a precursor to hitler and stalin style government.
If you have a point I suggest you make it, otherwise I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror.
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 2:01:16 PM | Much as I dislike the policies of the Bush Administration and regard them as corrupt incompetents, to compare them to Nazi Germany is rather silly.
If you're going to criticize do it with knowledge, not propaganda. Otherwise you're just proving true that old Taoist adage, "What you resist, you become." | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 2:01:24 PM | Another idealist. Another person I cannot hold a rational conversation with. You are right. America is lining up the Gas Chambers and internment camps as we speak. Pretty soon the Gulog is going to be set up and your friends and family are going to mysteriously come up missing........yeah thats whats happening
The mere ability of you to post the kind of mindless hyperbole that you do is evidence enough that America is not under a totalitarian state like you claim. There are countries like that (China, many African countries, many Middle Eastern countries). ones where dissent is not authorized. You just happily gloss over that fact and skip right to the America is becoming Nazi Germany crap. Do we do everything right? Nope. Are there changes that we need to make? Heck yes. Are we mindlessly murdering millions upon millions of Jews and Gypsies (or Arabs in our case) in the name of racial purity? Not a chance. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 2:22:10 PM | .
SS;
No we do not commit genocide of jews or anyone else in the name of racial purity, we commit genocide of muslims, to the tune of well over a million now, that is 1 MILLION DEAD MUSLIMS for a real justified "material" purpose. OIL!!! Not over some ideological racial purity bullshit eh?
There you go you are right on! Dissent in those countries they just take you out and shoot you and here they dont give you any air time so you can dissent to yourself all day long and the only one that will hear you is YOU! We are more civilized after all.
Again you are right, you cannot hold a rational conversation because you completely ignore those camps exist and you know what? They are big enough to hold well over 2 million and our good friends at hally burton helped convert them.
Again you are right! Germany didnt do everything right either and against the protests of those who understood the pretexts to what was about to happen people like you went happily along and stood by while hitler took over the country.
Look at that, fortunately there is one person here that you can have a rational coversation with and that is YOU!
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 2:30:07 PM | | Listen. I should probably tell you that I am firmly against the War in Iraq and firmly against the policy of foreign interventionalism. You seem to think otherwise. All I am saying is that compairing anything in the modern world to Nazi Germany instantly halts the conversation. Its not a rational argument. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 3:37:20 PM | .
I am firmly against the war on American citizens by so called americans. Iraq is secondary.
On the contrary;
The authorities even raided businesses and store owners, confiscating computers and paperwork in an effort to "track down "POSSIBLE" terrorists "BEFORE" something big happens".
No problem right? Nazis never did that right?
Gun confiscation in katrina? No problem they did not have the RIGHT to own and bear them anyway did they? Nazis never did that either did they?
We have seen how new provisions will effectively nullify the U.S. constitution, and a recent spate of executive orders, in particular PDD 51, outline preparations for the implementation of open martial law in the event of a declared national emergency.
http://www.infowars.net/articles/april2008/180408impact.htm
Yup the Nazis never did that either did they?
No problem that the president can circumvent congress in any kind of situation he determines to be an emergency and then declare martial law and remove ALL constitutional rights. Yeh thats nothing hitler would do...
Nothing like a little premptive arresting eh? We no longer have to worry about crime because our government will happily violate everyones rights to arrest them BEFORE they commit a crime! Hitler wasnt to bright, he waited till after they commited a crime. Now thats safety eh?
Oh yeh then that little issue of the patriot act where ANY CRIME is terrorism then the military commisions act and the removal of the posse comitatus act. No problem right? Hitler never dreamed of doing something like that!!!
You are correct with all the proof in writing that says you are frankly full of shit and we are walking on thin nazi ice it would be rather difficult to have a rational conversation with you.
You are in for a big suprise as is a lot of other people in this country.
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 4:17:27 PM | .
crap to late to edit.
here listen to this guy SS, he was a governor yanno, is he also to irrational to discuss this with you?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=569_1207165887
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 5:01:05 PM | | I'm not saying that things like the Patriot act dont go too far. I am saying a compairison between modern day America and Nazi Germany are not even close. Compair it so something on the same scale. Compair it to Russia under Kruschev for all I care (not Stalin, he was almost as bad as Hitler). You get a lot farther in making your points by making rational compairisons that people could reasonably agree with. Absolutely noone is going to take any arguement you make seriously if you continue to try to make America to be the next Nazi Germany. Even if they do SOME things in parallel, it is completely overshadowed by the big things that Germany did that made them almost universally hated. Mainly Gas chambers and concentration camps. Things that America do not do. You are trying to shock people into agreeing with you, which doesnt work | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 5:53:49 PM | .
Oh, you mean make watered down euphamistic suggestions based on the major media slants that are more palatable to your tender tummy?
You are the one that is coming out here claiming we are all idiots and so be it back it up now!
First I have researched the holocaust and compared to stalin it is laughable. Next I, (as well as several historians), have seen no real proof of a holocaust or gas chambers or the numbers claimed. Thats another subject however for another day.
Well there you have it. You see there are those of us who recognize that doing SOME of the things in parallel as in putting this country in a postion for a legal, (not constitutional), takeover by a Nazi like bush who grand daddy supported the nazis and bush a member of the skull bones that originated in germany is nothing to be concerned about.
There are many kinds of people in the world. there is an old saying yanno that goes something like; when walking down the road and seeing a pile if it looks like horseshit and it smells like horseshit its probably best to avoid it. Then again there is the other crowd that wait till its to late and need to step in it before they figure it out, and finally the blind deniars that cant seem to figure it out till they actually taste it.
So what your saying then is that the best way to understand this is to water it down? I am sure the best way is not to talk about it at all?
So when do we rate as having a holocaust? So far we are at 1 million per ever 4 years so if this is goign to be a 100 year war like the reps say it is then we should hit what? Say roughly 25 million over that 100 year period. Is that when you will admit its a genocide? The american holocaust? Another 20 and we will be right on up there with stalin.
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:02:54 PM | | OK im done. you are a denyer of the Holocaust but claim America is like Nazi Germany. someone here lost sight with reality a long time ago. take it easy mate | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:32:13 PM | .
Oh really?
Again to the contrary, I extend the term holocaust to ALL mass murders including the US governments genocide in the ME. I should have clarified myself in my last post that I have seen no proof of a holocaust that is different from any other holocaust throughout history.
Suffice to say you have ZIPPO to argue the point. You think you know but come out here and give us NOTHING.
If you wish to go a round with me on the holocaust we can start a thread and I will get my data and you can get yours and we can party hows that?
But you wont because you did NO research what so ever.
Stop by anytime you want to continue your irrational position.
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:34:05 PM | SS, I take your point about comparing current American policies to those of Nazi Germany....BUT I personally think it's useful to bear in mind the political ideology of FASCISM when thinking about some of the trends taking place in government policy, current political discourse, and some popular attitudes...especially when it comes to identifying and villilfying a cultural (or religious) "other," constructing state policy around that identification--rather than REAL defense-needs-- and using propoganda in order to convince the mass of the population to consent to the restriction of their individual rights for the sake of establishing and securing the superior status of a particular race/religion/ethnicity.... both within THIS country and across the world.
The idea that the US has a given RIGHT, based on notions of cultural "superiority," to militaristically establish its control/hegemony over parts of the world that we cast as DIFFERENT (i.e., INFERIOR) to us, is not NON-fascist. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:39:05 PM |
SS, I take your point about comparing current American policies to those of Nazi Germany....BUT I personally think its useful to bear in mind the political ideology of FASCISM when thinking about some of the trends taking place in government policy, current political discourse, and some popular attitudes...especially when it comes to identifying and villilfying a cultural (or religious) "other," constructing state policy around that identification--rather than REAL defense-needs-- and using propoganda in order to convince the mass of the population to consent to the restriction of their individual rights for the sake of establishing and securing the superior status of a particular race/religion/ethnicity.... both within THIS country and across the world.
The idea that the US has a given RIGHT, based on notions of cultural "superiority," to militaristically establish its control/hegemony over parts of the world that we cast as DIFFERENT (i.e., INFERIOR) to us, in itself, NON-fascist.
we arent becoming facist, were becoming more and more Communist if anything. Both are the extremes on the political line and were going in the opposite direction of facism. Both are totalitarian governments.
Im not an apoligizer of American policy, I think our foreign policy in the past 60 or so years has been atrocious. But compairing it to something as polarizing as Nazi germany and Hitler is a conversation stopper. Whenever you bring that into the conversation you immediately shift focus from what you are talking about to that one thing. it is not condusive to dialogue between two people. Even if you had a point in what you were saying it doesnt matter | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:51:26 PM | I've always felt that if you scratch the surface of a person enough, there is a Nazi under their skin.
Let's put aside the issue of the holocaust first which, by the way, the average German was either unaware or in denial of.
Hitler concentrated power of the NASDAP over all the government, so there were no checks and balances and no opposition to him. Right now, in the US, despite all the people in Congress we have sent to end involvement in Iraq and despite the will of the majority of people........it goes on. There was very little discussion outside a few Senators' protest when we were set to go into Iraq .......and I could see myself that the intelligence was sketchy and I am no Washington insider.
We had a McCarthyist type of atmosphere after that, to speak against it was unAmerican and unpatriotic, even treason.
Lots of people talk about deporting undocumented immigrants and what does that mean? Raids, sweeps, boarding the truck, detention camps. How many Americans are convinced that if we had a wide sweep of some 13 million people, interred them, etc., life would be better, that theyre the cause of all our problems, etc?
I dont know.........increase the price of gas, food, strain and stress people enough... bring it to some extremes ..... and they will look for a scapegoat. Our wandering Jews are the immigrants ........ | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:52:38 PM |
we arent becoming facist, were becoming more and more Communist if anything. Both are the extremes on the political line and were going in the opposite direction of facism. Both are totalitarian governments.
Im not an apoligizer of American policy, I think our foreign policy in the past 60 or so years has been atrocious. But compairing it to something as polarizing as Nazi germany and Hitler is a conversation stopper. Whenever you bring that into the conversation you immediately shift focus from what you are talking about to that one thing. it is not condusive to dialogue between two people. Even if you had a point in what you were saying it doesnt matter
mmm. Sorry, I have to disagree with you on pretty much every point you just made (lol). I don't know what you mean when you say that we "were becoming more and more communist"--how do you mean? Cuz I don't see it. But also, neither communism nor fascism are "totalitarian governments." Fascist governments are necessarity authoritarian, but communism, in itself, doesn't NECESSARILY postulate totalitarianism at all, whatever happened in Russia.
But anyway, more importantly perhaps, I don't agree that bringing up historical comparisons like to Hitler's Germany in discussing current American policy needs to be so polarizing as to stop conversation. It might work that way for you...but to me the comparison is provocative, but also instructive. Most people HATE Hitler but have no idea what his REAL political ideology was. They know about the Holocaust, but the Holocaust was what he was ABLE to do because of the means by which he lured the German people into supporting the creation--by DEMOCRATIC means-- of a totalitarian fascist state. It's the MEANS--the rhetoric, the nationalism, the propoganda, the appeal to reactionary populism-- that is important when we think about this comparison. Nobody in Germany was thinking, in 1933, "well that nice Mr Hitler is going to establish a totalitarian fascist state, take us into a horrendously destructive world war, and commit genocide against the Jews." No, they were thinking much less malign things than that, and getting sucked into hell because of their FEARS and the way those fears were manipulated.
Ignoring the past is never a good idea. And if there is one good thing that can come of Hitler's sheer horribleness, it's the LESSON that his example SHOULD provide to US as we THINK about these things. No--nobody has to AGREE that the comparison is a valid one, but trying to censor it out of discussion is counter-productive, IMO. | |
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| america - the 4th and final reich
Posted: 5/3/2008 7:05:58 PM | its not provocative at all. Its shocking and put you at a defensive posture. you now have to defend your position on how you are nothing like a group of people who murdered countless millions of jews and gypsies
I am going to capitalize this as this is the important part:
NO MATTER WHAT POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE WHEN YOU CALL A PERSON OR AN ENTIRE COUNTRY ANYTHING SIMILAR TO HITLER OR NAZIS THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS THAT YOU ARE CALLING THAT PERSON OR COUNTRY A MASS MURDER ON THE SCALE OF THE HOLOCAUST
That is precisely why its a bad argument to make. it doesnt further the conversation, it hinders it. you make the conversation turn to that vice what you were originally talking about simply because of how extremely terrible Hitler and the Nazis were. Again make a compairison to any one of the other hundred or thousands of other regimes that have taken over countries or continents, just not that one. It is just so far to the extreme people will stop listening to the original argument. Maybe not in your liberal America hating circle you run with, but nearly everyone outside of it | |
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