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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 2:27:27 PM | It's a generational thing. Men like me who came of age during the gender-wars era have had a rougher go of it than either older men (who could simply follow the old-school rules and reap the rewards) or younger men (who were never promised the old-school privileges and don't feel like the rug got pulled out from under them).
Our generation made the same sacrifices and were subjected to the same emotionally crippling training as young boys of previous generations, but what those earlier generations of men got for their trouble when they came of age was a certain deference from women and a great deal of social support for doing a man's job in a man's world. However, in our generation, the rules all changed--just at the time that we were ready to take on the adult roles that we'd been trained for.
However, those roles were no longer honored and the privileges that went with them were systematically stripped from us. Believe me, we felt the loss. Even though we had no right to "male privilege," we hadn't really done anything other than follow the rules, so it was incomprehensible to us that we really couldn't keep it. And what was worse, we were vilified for having bought into those roles when they were the only roles we'd been offered. Even the men (like me) who supported women's equality were denounced and deprogrammed to whatever degree we could stand before we had to tune out in order to continue functioning.
So, in addition to being asked to give up our "male privilege," we've also been asked to maintain the dual role of both equal partner and romantic lead. It hasn't been easy. And depending on who we approach, women who don't understand what we've given up so that y'all can enjoy your equality (which of course you should), either slam us for being too much the gentleman or not enough--and we never know which form of rejection it's likely to be. However, we're pretty sure there won't be a whole lot of compassion for us as human beings either way.
And that isn't just old-school thinking because, really, how could there be? Y'all haven't had the relevant experience and lack a frame of reference for understanding what it was like on our side--and since you were the identified victims, you've had no motivation for looking at how it felt to us. You had to win, and you did what you had to do. And there is nothing for you to regret except perhaps the necessity of it.
So on the whole, when men of our generation reach the midlife crisis stage and realize that: a) we never will get the youth we'd hoped for, b) we're faced with a crop of women who to some degree have regarded us as their oppressors all along and to a certain extent still do, and c) that in such a climate--however subtle it might be--we're never going to enjoy the gratitude for being placed at risk to die in combat to keep y'all safe. When htat weight truly hits home, we find it easier just to give it a rest.
You're still great to look at, but we have no idea what to do with you beyond that--and the bottom line is that you really have no idea what to do with us. You might not realize that, but we do.
Honestly, if those younger men are approaching you with romance in mind, you just might want to take 'em up on it. Much less complicated for you than trying to deal with us scarred-up mid-lifers. --especially when there is so little awareness or concern over the effect that the transition has had on us. Of course, we're not entirely blameless in that--we could have done our own political analysis, raised our own conscsiousness, and followed your example to get emancipated ourselves, but this is where the hope for those very privileges that we were promised but never got has truly blinded us. And blind we remain.
Not that feminism was wrong in any way. It wasn't. What happened to us was unfortuante but necessary, and we just weren't equipped to deal with it. But now you say you want something from us that we aren't giving you. So, if you want to know why that might be and what can be done about it you might try so see if you can put yourself in our position. --that is, the position of someone toward whom the social and moral accusations were aimed, who was just trying to follow the rules he was taught, who had to weather all that without either emotional support from you or the skills to support himself (old-school training you know). Then you can perhaps begin to appreciate why we might not want to put ourselves in the position of being rejected in yet another way by you now. We're just done.
And even if most middle-aged men who hestiate to approach you might not articulate it this way--probably because we were trained not to talk or even think about such things but just to act (or in this case refrain from acting stupidly)--the history of the era was what it was, and this reluctance on the part of men in our generation is some of the fallout.
So please do enjoy your emancipaton! And please be generous with us because we too paid a price for it. It would be nice if we could share the joy of your freedom more fully with you, but in order for that to happen you're probably going to have to take some initiative to share it with us. As the beneficiaries of that history, don't you think it might be incumbent on you to do that?
After all, you are the winners. The question in the backs of our minds is this: Now that you've won, will you be gracious winners or not? We'll just have to see. | |
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zeeba
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Joined: 3/27/2008
Msg: 302 | |
| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 5:20:06 PM | Hi back, AceofSpace... and by the way, I looked at your profile, and MAJOR congratulations on being 1st in your class! How exciting, and you have to be very proud of that.
You have a very thoughtful response here. Having just wound up my own thread on the future and the past, it is time for me to move beyond that and start being a lot more empathetic to others. I am sort of part of your generation at almost 46...and was both intrigued and scratching my head about the "emancipation" of women. I guess it's because I'm not feeling all that emancipated, or like a winner.
When I was attending graduate school in my 20s, it was a real struggle to be taken seriously as a reasonably intelligent woman in classes with men my age. My goodness, talk about rejection! I was often perceived as too smart, and completely unapproachable. And if I were discussing something in class with a male professor...oh, my. I was then accused by the male graduate students as flirting to get a better grade. Extremely frustrating.
If women have "won" anything over the years, I hope that we have won the battle of being seen as equals in the workplace. Nothing more, and nothing less. When I am working, I never think of myself as female and I don't think of any male co-workers in terms of gender. We are there to complete our tasks. Does anyone here watch "Mad Men" on AMC? Wow. Talk about gender stereotypes and the perception of women as objects. I don't want to go back to those times.
Now, on to the personal. In the best of all possible worlds, men and women could approach one another with no fear. That isn't realistic, but if I smile and make eye contact with a man I find attractive, I'm thrilled if he notices and smiles back, and maybe says something. No need to be afraid of this zeeba.
Again, you really put a lot of thought into your response and I appreciated reading it. Good luck. And also BTW, we have an excellent chocolate and candy shop in my town! (Sorry. Couldn't resist.) | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 7:23:36 PM | Thanks for your kind words, Z.
I'll be right out for some of that chocolate! 
I'm not surprized that you aren't feeling like a winner. What kind of a victory is it when all you got was what you were entitled to anyway?
When a person is in the position of having an unearned privilege bestowed by virtue of birth and social convention, and not earned by one's own personal achievement--it can be very difficult to tell the difference between what is a privilege and what is a right.
It all feels the same--like a part of my birthright. So why should I ever give any of it up and who is anyone to tell me that I have to?
Well ... that's the wrong answer. When rights and privileges come into conflict, such as women's rights and men's privileges under the old rules, rights trump privileges and the rules have to change. That's just how it is.
Back then, we didn't have the vocabulary of civil rights that we do now, so we couldn't make it just that clear. The unclarity and perceived unfairness/unreasonableness on both sides didn't help matters, but the bottom line is that the feminist cause was just and women now have a reasonable expectation of equal opportunity and equal treatment in the workplace. It's not perfect but the vastly better than it was, and the progress for women isn't stopping any time soon.
However, that still leaves us scarred-up men who got nothing, not even a thank you, when we finally, grudgingly, and petulantly had to acknowledge that women had rights and we had to honor them. And honestly, since we handled it that way for the most part there's really not much to thank us for.
Still, the fact is that we finally made the changes because, when it comes right down to it, we love you and want you to be as free as you want to be. But the fact that you wanted to be free of us, or so it seemed, still hurts us.
However, I do understand why you'd have wanted to be free of all the BS you got from us. I really do. And I regret that so many of us had so little grace along the way. But then, it's hard to respond positively to ugly attacks upon one's character rather than respectful criticisms of one's ignorant behavior--and we also didn't have the vocabulary of nonviolent communication back then. Thank goodness that the young people of today have a better conceptual framework for working out differences than we had!!!
But it was how it was for us. And since we men got somewhat blindsided by all those attacks (justified though many of them were by circumstances if not conscious intent), we have an expectation that there will be more of that to come from you. And all too often, that expectation is fulfilled by women who don't get it that to one extent or another, most of us are walking wounded.
So, if you want a man who's intact, younger might be better. If you want _us,_ you might want to let us know. But if you just want to reform us some more, or to pretend that all that didn't happen so that you can feel more romantic, it still isn't _us_ that you want. And, dense though we may be, we've finally figured that much out. | |
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zeeba
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Joined: 3/27/2008
Msg: 304 | |
| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 8:12:44 PM | And you are quite welcome! Man, if it weren't for those pesky geographic limits and fuel prices...(high time for a change in administrations, but that is for another thread.)
Lots and lots of proverbial food for thought here. I graduated from high school in 1980, right at the height of much of the women's movement. Sometimes I think that my generation was taught that we could have everything. Not that I regret too many of my choices...but as I posted in my other thread, I do think that I threw away some chances for some possible relationships. Now, THAT is the regret with which I struggle big time.
So, all we can do is move forward! In terms of the original question "Are men over 40 afraid to approach women?" -- heck, I'm afraid many times to approach guys! Part of my fear comes from a really bad experience a number of years ago (yes, I know it's past time to get over it.) I felt totally rejected physically, emotionally, you name it. And, I wound up feeling like the worst, aggressive, witchy woman on this earth. Scared me half to death to approach another guy again -- I was convinced that if I did, the man would run screaming for the hills, yelling "No! No! Evil aggressive female!" 
I'm just now getting to the point where I can indeed smile at a guy and not be completely convinced he will turn his back on me. So you see, both genders can be afraid at this age. What a mess, and what the heck to do about it? I am not sure younger men are necessarily an answer. For one thing, I am just not attracted to them. No offense to you all! You are cute, but I cannot date someone young enough to be my son OR very younger brother! I much prefer my age or a bit older.
Good luck to all in our fishing ponds! | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 8:15:22 PM | Some very thoughtful if complicated thoughts, Ace. Luckily I met someone who simplified it for me!
I came of age just as women's lib and sexual liberation burst onto the social scene and I felt like my whole world had been turned upside down........ After years of being raised to believe that I would go to college, marry, have kids, stay home with them, go to work to put them through college, and then retire with my husband, etc, etc, all of a sudden all the rules changed. I wasn't supposed to want an engagement ring. I was supposed to pay half the bills even if he made twice as much as I did and I was always supposed to say yes to sex or be branded as one of those women who "used" sex to try to control men......... I was supposed to leave my daughter with a sitter and work instead yet the majority of housework and child care was still my responsibility, too. I am woman.........I am tired.........I felt like I was working two jobs to men only working one! So women's worlds were turned upside down, too!
And I went along with all of that but when I hit my 40's and 50's, I finally met an old fashioned man and realized, "Wow! I really like this!" He wouldn't touch a dish if his life depended on it but he always loved his job and paid the bills. He didn't care if I worked or not but he did want my attention and company when he was home, he wanted the house basically neat and clean (and it wasn't his job so it was mine) but he always noticed when I cleaned and showed his apprecation, too! It was so simple. Not complicated. Neither of us spent hours wondering how the other one would react to this or that .......... it was just very basic and simple and I realized that he was happy as a man and I was happy as a woman............. For the first time in my life, I really felt happy instead of harried and tired........ I always made sure that I looked nice when he came home and he appreciated that........but he accepted me when I was sick and didn't look so great, too........ So today, I think it's good that men can relate to kids and women can get jobs but I think we need to get back to the basics....... men feel better when they are the leaders in the home ........ they like being needed and women like being needed, too. I liked the fact that he needed me to go to the grocery store. He could do his own laundry but preferred me to do it and I liked doing it for him........
I think today, there is such a paranoia about not needing anyone but part of being a couple is mutual dependance that benefits both in ways that they like............ | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/23/2008 10:20:09 PM | Hey Friendly,
I'm glad that you found something that works for you. If we all could have agreed to respect each other and reform the old rules that might have been much nicer for us all.
That sounds a lot like that's what you've come to. However, not everyone wants that and we can no longer presume that they should. But it's great for you and I'm happy for you!
Also, I understand that things got more complicated and difficult for women as well. But the fact of the matter is that for all that, women's fortunes and prestige have increased while men's have diminished. And that is the natural outcome of moving from a status of unearned privilege to a status of greater equality. I don't have a problem with that.
I do have to quibble with you about your statement that men are happier when leading their families. Many men like to pretend that they're the leaders, and some of them even fool themselves--though a few men really can and do pull it off. But not having to visibly lead was one of the old-school privileges of being female, as was not having to work outside if there was a man around who could do that for you.
Personally, I _don't_ like feeling needed. It gives me the creeps. I much prefer feeling _respected._ If a man performed under the old rules, he got that respect--at least outwardly. But since things changed? There is no formula now that a man can follow to garner any respect from a woman. So, we can't really know for sure when we are out of line or when a woman is. The very need in a man for such a formula is viewed as a weakness in and of itself, even though we give housecleaners and garbage collectors job descriptons and pay them their due for work we consider utterly menial.
Men our age have no expectation of any respect at all from women--especially not when we first approach. Some of that is on us for sure. But some of it is not. You can't do much about the part of it that's on us. But you can do something about that part that isn't--and that might be enough to make the difference between a man our age feeling comfortable about approaching you or not.
As I've said before, the rejections that come after a woman has taken a moment to consider me--even if she's just faking it to spare my feelings--are fine with me. Sometimes they're even affirming,which is a strangely wonderful experience when it happens. But those rejections are pretty rare.
One thing that really bugs me is when a woman brutally rejects me and then, when she sees me having a good time flirting with another woman, starts signalling interest. It happened to me just last night. She might not have remembered her having trashed me, but I sure do. And so I'm supposed to do what, ditch a woman who might actually like me for her because she claimed her privilege to change her mind? Puleeeze. | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/26/2008 11:15:11 AM | AceOfSpace -
Overall I agree with you and you're on the right track, but you caved in to 'feminization' a few times, and you probably didn't even realize it.
You're right on target that men in the current 40 to 55 age bracket have been totally screwed over by the timing of the feminist movement. We took full blame for the bad policies of of the past, even though we were not even born at the time. I've never kept a woman from having a job or a home, just as I have never owned a slave, yet a lot of people want to take the blame for both.
From age 4 to about 7, I was 'on the run' with mother and sister escaping a seriously violent marriage. Police told my mother she 'just needed to be a better wife' to stop the beatings, and we were denied any kind of financial assistance or loans; shelters had not been invented yet. So we lived in cars, in campers, an filthy trailers in slum trailer parks. This killed my self esteem, made it hard to make friends, and I started to have weight at behavior problems. I was as much a victim of the 'male dominated society' as anyone else.
By the time I was in college, the pendulum had swing and males were all told they are pigs, horrible human beings because they liked sex, and didn't even deserve a fair shot at jobs. My college computer programming classes were 90% male, even though women were actively encouraged to join, but we were clearly told that 1/2 of all open positions were going to be given to females, REGARDLESS of test scores or other qualifications. If any male so much as whispered that this was unfair, we would likely be fired as "insensitive" because "diversity" was more important that competence.
In our 30s as we rose in the corporate world, it was no secret that we had no chance at any promotion if another candidate was female, because "there weren't enough females in the boardroom". We literally were expected to pay from our own pockets to make sure things were "fair", which is a contradiction. I remember working for several female Information Tech directors at Blue Cross who had NO CLUE what their job was, knew nothing about software or development, absolutely zero qualifications. The result was predictable - we were instructed to build systems that had no purpose and did not work, costing the company millions and nearly pushing it to bankruptcy.
More recently studies have shown that women are often the cuplrits of many of the problems formerly blamed on men.
- Women are far more likely to file for divorce; men are more likely to try to save a marriage
- Women move on to the next relationship far more quickly than men
- Men are 4 times more likely to commit suicide after divorce
- When only one party in a relationship commits violence, it is (by a wide margin) most often the female who is violent
- Women in "Battered Women's Shelters" are more violent than the men they left 60% of the time
- The extreme majority of women in women's shelters go back to the men they claimed were abusive, or find a new man they claim is also abusive and return to the shelter.
Tammy Bruce, a former feminist activist published a book esposing the feminist movement, and how they attacked people who pubished data that didn't fit their agenda. One of those was Dr. Laura, whom they hated because she told women to take responsibility for themselves and be a positive partner in marraige, rather than play victim roles or dominate their men. The feminsts were also very angry about statistic showing lesbian relationships had the same level of violence as straight relationships - which totally blew the 'blame it all on men' mantra.
But even more damaging is the cultural effect of feminism. We now have entire CHANNELS of programming (We, Oxygen, etc) of nothing but programs and movies where the 'heros' are all females, and the villains or 'dumb' characters are always male. It's not even noticed that much of our programming is open male-bashing... ever seen an episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond"? | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/26/2008 12:34:01 PM | Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Speaking for myself, and way beyond forty...
I've alwys been afraid to approach women, to a great extent. Now at my age, yes, definitely more afraid. Why would a woman want to be approached by an old geezer with a cue-ball head, even if they are my age? They are being sought out by the younger guys, these days. And the old thing of olders guys looking for younger women...it's just not happening anymore.
Two examples...a female friend of mine, in her later fifties, is being approached by men the same age as her daughter's boyfriend...mid-forties! Now her daughter is in her mid-twenties, and apparently has found a very special guy, who has quite a number of years over her, but it speaks well for both of them! She is mature enough to not only attract, but maintain a relationship with a man that age, and he is youthful enough to attract a good-looking younger gal! That is really the exception, and I give him a lot of credit for having what it takes to approach her.
It also speaks well for her mother, my friend, that younger guys find her youthful and attractive, even though she would prefer someone closer to her own age.
But as for me, the older I get, the harder it gets to even consider approaching a lady of any age. This ties right in with the "who is that person in the mirror" thread. | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/26/2008 12:39:39 PM | I don't know about any other guy, but for me it's a resounding no. What's the worst that can happen? She says no. Alright, so what? Shit happens kids. Dust yourself off and move on.
I can say however, I've become more selective with whom I approach, just because I've become more selective about what I'm looking for. | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 7/27/2008 12:57:47 AM | When I can find one that actually makes my life BETTER than it is now for being IN it, instead of making it worse....... only then will I think of approaching again....
Until that happens....
"You had me but Hell No!" | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/6/2008 6:59:11 PM | I can only speak for myself when I say I'm not only NOT afraid to approach a woman that I see and for what ever reason feel an attraction to.... I've developed what I think are a couple of good opening lines...
I know for a fact several women I've approached have been flattered and had no problem at all with me approaching them......I must have good taste because so far the women that I've been inspired to approach have been in relationships...
My philosophy...if you don't ask you won't know...and for the record I always check the ring finger, if it's occupied I move along quietly.... | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/6/2008 7:57:02 PM | | In my case I was married for a long time, became single but very busy raising 2 kids. Now they are both in college and it is just a matter of getting back into the whole dating scene. I am very friendly in my professional life but a bit more on the shy side when it comes to asking out woman. I am not bitter or worried about being hurt or used, I guess I am just lazy. If It happens it'll happen. Thank god for real fishing lol. Maybe I'll meet my soul mate on the river. | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/6/2008 8:20:56 PM | I haven't read through 13 pages of replies to your question OP............But I will try to answer based on my own experience. When a man sees a woman that he wants to know better, he will approach.
But, let's face it. Men have had to endure rejection much more than women have had to. I think men, who are still approaching women at this age, are pretty remarkable, considering....... | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/6/2008 9:13:16 PM | for me it's these damn sexual harrassment laws. i've had women get mad because i just said hello while walking past them, and opening doors for them, for refering to a group of 2 or more women as ladies. i'm old fashened and believe in traditional gender rolls. and i have my pride. something men are not allowed because manly pride offends women. well that's tough because i will not date a woman who makes more that me or is stronger than me or is independent. screw that crap. i need to feel like a man. i want to take pride in being a man. but these days just being "male" is politically incorrect. my rule? if your a liberated independent woman who lifts weights, then i'm not interested.
kenny | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/6/2008 9:38:56 PM |
I need to feel like a man. I want to take pride in being a man. but these days just being "male" is politically incorrect.
The only person that can make you feel like a man.....................is YOU!
Stop blaming women, change your outlook and your life might change. And, of course when you change your outlook, your approach to women might change too! | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/7/2008 2:12:54 AM | YIKES! Hmmm...so what's my chances for finding a guy at my age?
I was hopeful that someone might be interested...now I'm thinking I'm just going to have to start approaching men...not something I'm comfortable with...
I hear what you guys were saying about the eye contact...I'll keep that in mind...forward any other tips you have my way.
I'm feeling lonely now.
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/7/2008 3:31:58 AM | I have no problem approaching women ,,,,,,,,,,,, it's stopping them from running away where the problem lies ..........................
Did you know that looking at a woman for longer than 7 seconds constitutes sexual harrassment ? Doesn't give one much time to assess the possibility of an approach   | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/7/2008 6:55:17 AM | Although I cannot speak for other men I can tell you how I handle things. I am fortunate to live in a large urban area in which a large number of folks over 45 are single. There are literally more single events around here than it is humanly possible for one person to attend but I get to some.
When I attend singles events I am naturally there to find women to whom I may be attracted. Men are hunters and I suppose I tend to focus on what I am hunting. Although I say my hellos and chat a bit with other men and women acquaintenances I try not to get into deep or lengthy discussions with them. During such conversations I keep my eyes open to spot the few available women, if any, to whom I may find myself attracted. Women who do not attract me may literally be all around me but they simply do not show up as blips on my radar. If and when I get a reasonable opportunity to approach a woman I find attractive I do so. Many times the ones I find attractive are already talking to other men or are so popular I never get a chance to chat them up. Other times no women to whom I am sufficiently attracted show up at the event. At such times I will hang around for a while and renew acquaintenances with folks I recognize and perhaps talk to some new women who I do not wish to date. Sometimes I have wonderful conversations with such women and they become platonic friends. | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:00:54 AM |
for me it's these damn sexual harrassment laws.
I call bullshit.
If your actions in life are so questionable that you're worried about being accused of sexual harassment, perhaps you need to take a look at your actions.
No court of law is going to lock you up and throw away the key for holding a door or saying hello to someone.
To paraphrase a wonderful female poster on this site: "There's a fine line between having a d*ck and being one." | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:14:52 AM |
Although I cannot speak for other men I can tell you how I handle things. I am fortunate to live in a large urban area in which a large number of folks over 45 are single. There are literally more single events around here than it is humanly possible for one person to attend but I get to some.
...California here I come.
I too love in a large urban centre but unfortunately there are very few single events for people my age. I attended a couple of functions but it reminded me so much of high school dances.... very little interaction between the groups, men on one side....well you know. Anyhow, I was disappointed in the few that I attended and never went back
...maeflowers | |
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| Are men over 40 more afraid to approach women?
Posted: 9/17/2008 11:43:51 AM | OP My 2 cents worth about approching a woman for a date. Not on your life would I ever consider walking up to a stranger and asking them out. Guess that's why I'm single. I now that I'm in the over 40 crowd need a little background. Guess I'm both shy and gun shy in my older self now...  | |
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