| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 4:21:55 AM |
Goddamn there are some bitter women here.
The man finds love outside of his loveless marriage and his death gets an amen, everyone's better off, including her now fatherless 7 year old daughter.
I wish I was perfect so I could be so judgemental and callous.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Amen | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 27 | |
| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 4:27:34 AM |
and as for staying together for the kids?? all that does is create a situation where the kids see how a disfunctional relationship is.. and then try to emulate that as an adult thinking its normal.
Maybe. But equally you could argue that it teaches them the value of commitment to something , following through with what you started, teaches that personal sacrifice is appropriate for things that really matter, that the family unit matters, and certainly demonstrates putting the child above the self which will be good for their esteem. And, you could equally argue that parents who split up teach their children that relationships are transient and disposable, that breaking up is normal, that pursuit of happiness away from the family is fine. Before anyone becomes upset about me criticising couples who split up...I am NOT saying this is the case, merely that the views being put forward regarding the impact on the kids from the choice to stay together are merely representing one perspective...a negative one. I think there are good and bad points for either choice. Mmmnicky might have anecdotal evidence of children with ulcers from parents who stayed together...but I'll bet there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of kids who suffer similar emotional turmoil when their parents split.
and his death gets an amen
...and a clapping emoticon, and a "yay" emoticon. Yeah that level of disregard to a man's death surprised me too. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 4:46:58 AM | ^^^^ I am so with you Namaah......Im very sad to read that someone can say Amen to a man who died in their forties leaving behind people that loved him, no matter what his moral code was in this particular incident.
That kid is now going to grow up with no father, and that is always sad when a child loses a parent out of the their life no matter what the cricumstances are.
I certainly do not condone what Louise did, not in the least and I too hope that she is mature enough to stay away from the funeral and from Karen...I hope she does for everyones sake...but do we not have compassion ? do any of us dictate who our hearts love ? Do we ever really choose ? How would you feel rite now if god forbid the person you loved in your life suddenly passed away and you could not mourn them in any way except privately in your heart ? Who has she got to share his memory with, or their times together ?. For all we know she made Greg happy - (Im assuming) - so does that make her evil ? I have no doubt she will get support from her friends and family if they know (I dont know if they do) but just because shes the "other woman", does that mean shes scarlet thru and thru and therefore is not worthy of our compassion ?
Naturally I feel for Karen and the child, and Karen has PERHAPS been hoodwinked...for all we know, she knows... however Louise leaves this mess with nothing...nothing...and if the story is to be believed he stayed because he wanted what he THOUGHT was best for the child - whether it is or not is irrelevant to the story, he stayed because he thought it was the rite thing to do in his eyes.....the relevance is that now there are two women greiving for him. One assumes that Karen loved Greg and she will no doubt be feted for doing so....and also may benefit financially....however Louise is left with nothing, no future, no child by him, no money (I assume) ..nothing
If Greg is to be believed and now we will never know, he intended to live a future life with Louise but he also gave her the freedom to find another if one should come her way. He also stayed with Karen for Staceys sake , so he tried to do the rite thing. Now dont get me wrong, Im not condoning his actions - Ive been the victim many times of a unfaithful partner so trust me cheats rate low in my book but the way I see it, Louise has nothing now, but scorn for the crime of falling in love with someone who wasnt available ...and with a man who saw it was his duty to stay with the mother of his child to provide a stable family life for his child. If anyone is despicable in all of this, is it not Greg ? And even so, if what he did was morally wrong , is death really his karma ?.....Im sorry but how woefully sad is that thought ...to wish death upon another and say...."Wow you got yours"... Do you really think ? I would never tempt my fate so easily...so easy to judge.....tomorrow and god forbid I say this but anyone of us could have a heart attack on a tennis court....and leave behind many that love us..... did we die because we were having an affair, because we cut a bloke off while driving, because we kicked the cat that morning...or could it be it was just our allotted time on earth ? and it was time to journey on ? ....not karma/jsut desserts ? | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 4:56:59 AM |
I certainly do not condone what Louise did, not in the least and I too hope that she is mature enough to stay away from the funeral and from Karen...
Or should Karen be mature enough to realise that her husband, living in a loveless marriage used as a platform of stability of their child and nothing else found happiness elsewhere, and this woman deserves the right and maturity of others to witness the burial of the one person she loves.
Because we only know "most" of the story, right and wrong is hard, if not impossible to define. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:00:55 AM |
because we kicked the cat that morning...or could it be it was just our allotted time on earth ? and it was time to journey on ? ....not karma/jsut desserts ?
Pookie I was not saying that his death was his karma, I was simply amazed also at the lack of compasion for the fact that someone has died. My comment was meant to be along the lines of leave the dead man alone no need to call him names as I think he and his family have suffered enough.
I can see how you could think I too was having a go at him.
The truth is I just don't like writing long posts. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:04:18 AM |
I don't believe she should contact the family at all...she had no contact with them while he was alive and shouldn't in death either.
I'm still in 2 minds about her attending the funeral though.
I agree, but then I also agree with;
Goddamn there are some bitter women here.
So if she turns up at the funeral she may well get ripped to shreads.
My god I can't believe some people think death is an appropriate punishment for having an affair. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:19:25 AM | It is sad. Very.
Personally, I have never been to a funeral to do anything other than support the family and encourage those left behind.
She chose not to respect his family while he was alive, so there seems little point suggesting she has respect to offer now.
No doubt she needs to grieve. She can continue conducting herself as the abstract woman though, and do her grieving in her own world. She had no place in his family life. He never offered her one. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:56:30 AM | It is sad when someone dies, even when you don't like them much.
Like Pookie said everyone's a loser in this situation.
Louise didn't know Karen, only knew of her, so everything Greg said to Louise could have been BS, as far as she was concerned. Louise only had Greg's word that he was in a loveless relationship.
Put your hands up those that would enter into a relationship with someone that says they are in a loveless relationship & also have a 4 y/o daughter.
they only saw each other periodically due to their work commitments and also due to the distance they lived from each other, but they spoke most nites via the computer and went away together on business conferences etc and got together every so often when they were able to. I can only imagine that they weren't actually physically together all that much (guessing 3 or 4 times a year) seems more of a union of convenience to me.
you could argue that it teaches them the value of commitment to something , following through with what you started, teaches that personal sacrifice is appropriate for things that really matter, that the family unit matters, and certainly demonstrates putting the child above the self which will be good for their esteem. And, you could equally argue that parents who split up teach their children that relationships are transient and disposable all very good qualities but some things can be taught in a more practical way. A basic rule of parenting is if the parents aren't happy then the kids won't be happy. I think staying together for the sake of the kids is a ridiculous notion & quite possible selfish.
but I'll bet there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of kids who suffer similar emotional turmoil when their parents split. Kids get over it & adapt, it's awful for a kid to be subjected to an on going feud between his/her parents.
Goddess of Dreams, cheering the death of this person, by the way of the emoticons, I found to be particularly repugnant | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:59:50 AM | Pookie pointed out that we all need to grieve, with the funeral being an important part of the process. If Louise could attend the funeral without causing a scene it might be helpful to her but it would contain lots of confronting moments listening to the eulogy where everyone talks about the loving family man and his lovely partner left behind, etc, etc.
It sounds like Louise could get away with tacking onto the funeral crowd without being noticed if no one knew about the affair. She could say she knew him from work if anyone asked.
The trouble is, she sounds like she wants recognition and isn't being terribly rational in her grief.
I think it would cause unnecessary and immense hurt to the partner and child to come out now and tell her story. In accepting a underhand part in his life, she unfortunately accepted the part of an unknown in his death. It must be devastating.
I wonder if she was the only 'other' woman in his life? It would be quite bizarre if there were several distraught mourners at the funeral. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 6:33:08 AM | I dont see why Louise cant grieve openly. SHe doesnt need to contact his family or his friends if she has never met them before.
If they live far away from each other her grieving wont cause a problem for his family.
There is no need for Karen to know about Louise. Louise should go to the funeral and say she was a work collegue if asked how she knew Greg. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 6:58:34 AM |
...cheats rate low in my book...
...while i do not in any circumstance condone cheating...
...lying to everyone...
Hey! Why is everybody picking on me! ...sob'`sob'`
Oh well, snuffle snuffle, at least there's one nice person here...
Though a cheating dog and a slapper possibly belong together!
Cheers Hilly!  | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 7:07:33 AM | namaah,
i explained how my ex, as a 9 year old child had an ucler because of the stressful situation his parents 'committment' was in being together. he learnt how to have a dysfunctional relationship.
i do not believe in staying together for the kids sake, and as someone else pointed out there are more practical ways to show children the value of committment that being in a loveless arrangement.
we all try and show kids how important love is.. the love we have for them and of course other kinds.. u only ridicule the value of that by staying in a relationship that is without it. and u can still have a valuable family unit while not being together. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 7:13:31 AM |
Lay Down and Shutup. Yer supposed to be dead...
Bionic! You charmer you... | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 7:26:09 AM | After a long marriage that went quite awful at the end, I have dated a few people, and very short term. Eventually I met a lovely man called Michael. He was SO WISE and SO SAD too. He was the most beautiful person whom I had ever been close to. Often when we spent time, he would cry on me about things unresolved in his life. Unfortunately, post-marriage, we both had been living roughly: him in his car and me in a garage. So we would often meet in his car, as it is not very private in my place.
Time went by, and we kept our affair private, believing that the small town we live in would destroy it if they knew... (like wolves tearing at flesh...)
He asked me did I want to go away and travel and just live in his car. He said we would be happy. Well, I was smitten, but did not want to live hand to mouth in a car on the side of the road. He applied for work in Qld. He believed that he had gotten a job at Mackay, and would suss it out, and come back and see his kids from his marriage at Xmas, and would let me know what was happening if I wanted to go up then....
When he got there he had manual skills in the trade but not AUTO-CAD experience. He ran out of rego, was broke, no-where to stay, no job and was ashamed, and went to the forest and suicided. He did it on 24th Dec 2005.
A few people had guessed about us, but it just destroyed me. At his funeral, well, my sadness was bleeding open for the world to see, and it all came out then. It took me 2 years to shake that greif away and get back into life.....
He had wanted me to meet his daughters, I did at the funeral. Now his x-wife emails me, and his daughters like me. But I miss him.
MORAL: If you love something or someone, LET IT SHOW, LET THEM KNOW, LET IT GROW, AND DO NOT LET THEM GO. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 7:48:39 AM | Winged kitty
That was very brave of you to share that story...thankyou for that....and your rite..we get one shot at life and we get only a few chances with the people we love.... every moment does count.
No doubt I will hear more of this story as it unfolds during the week...and I will keep you updated if interested.
Winged Kitty I hope things are much better in your world now.. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 42 | |
| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 8:51:46 AM |
explained how my ex, as a 9 year old child had an ucler because of the stressful situation his parents 'committment' was in being together. he learnt how to have a dysfunctional relationship.
Yep, I understand that it was actual anecdotal evidence as in something you experienced. And the only point I was trying to make is that, despite your experience with someone whose parents stayed together and screwed him up, there are plenty of people around who claim to be (or are perceived to be) screwed up because their parents split. Plenty around who equally could blame their own inability to have healthy adult relationships on their parents who split up. It's not as simple as..."staying bad...leaving good". Because the thing is...the kids of the two guys I know, don't have ulcers, and in fact are happy and well adjusted teenagers now.
i do not believe in staying together for the kids sake
And I am not trying to convince you to change your beliefs, merely introduce an alternative perspective on the notion of staying for the sake of the kids.
By the way...has anyone ever heard the phrase used "we split up for the kids sake".
I haven't...and if it is better for the kids to split up, then how come it's not a common expression used?
there are more practical ways to show children the value of committment that being in a loveless arrangement.
And there are more practical ways to show a child how to have a loving relationship than to leave their other parent and go be with someone else. But don't you see...I am not trying to say either one is right or wrong, only that some here seem rather one-eyed about saying it's all bad to stay together..and I see shades of grey in both staying together, and splitting up. Neither are ideal for the kids, but both can turn out OK. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 9:09:32 AM | | Hey Pookiespal, thanks and certainly share with me if you like. I am keen to hear similar stories. Love is so precious, when you find it, don't let it go too easily. | |
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Naamah
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Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 44 | |
| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 9:20:17 AM | ...oops...also meant to respond to a couple of comments Avo made...
if the parents aren't happy then the kids won't be happy
I have met a lot of unhappy divorced men who don't get to see their kids often enough and it has killed something inside them. I sometimes wonder if the kids get a sense of their Dad's deep-seated unhappiness on the weekend visits. Will this mess the kids up and make them unhappy?
Kids get over it & adapt, it's awful for a kid to be subjected to an on going feud between his/her parents.
Firstly, a loveless marriage need not be a feud/abusive/heated/angry all the time...that's an assumption on your part. Secondly, I know people who have worn scars from their parent's divorce looooong after the fact. So whilst some kids "get over it", it's not foolproof any more than staying together is in some cases. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 11:01:34 PM | Louise should show her love in the only way she has left. By showing respect for the family he tried to keep together. Any desire she might have to "share" the truth is purely selfish. She should suck it up. Tell one of her friends so she has soeone to talk to and leave his family alone to their grief.
WG I agree with your statement, all this little girl has left of her Dad is memories, no one has the rite to take that away from her. She has already lost to much. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/29/2008 11:30:55 PM | Ok just a little update on this story.
Greg's funeral will be held on Friday..... at a church followed by a burial...being a public venue, technically Louise cannot be barred from either service....the word on the grapevine is that she has full intentions of attending the service but not causing a scene...those who know her are begging her not to, but she assures them that she will be fine.....mmmm all way too sad... | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/30/2008 12:06:25 AM | I think Louise has proved she has few morals by what she did and to insist on going to the funeral she is just showing her true colours even more.
Selfish.
I cant understand how she thinks she is going to turn up at a funeral and not raise questions. If she is as grief stricken as she appears then people are going to figure out that this is not a normal level of grief for a "work collegue" or a "friend" to exhibit.
And then what???
If she really cared about Greg she would stay away and not risk muddying his name. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/30/2008 12:22:15 AM | | we're complicated creatures, and well, who can usually have enough self control to not fall in love with the wrong person? personally my thoughts would be with Louise, as she had 'something' that now is gone, and yet society says she should feel ashamed and disrespectful at trying to offer her respect to the man she loved. | |
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| A Very Sad Moral Dilemma
Posted: 4/30/2008 12:31:17 AM | ^^^ bzzt I agree we cant control who we fall in love with but many of us especially as we age and mature have the moral fibre to not do something we know is very wrong.
She made her bed........ | |
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