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| question for christians
Posted: 5/14/2008 10:26:09 PM |
I beg to differ:
Sounds to me as if though you do believe in Scripture regardless of your denomination/religion, after all, you are quoting it above...However, please take a look below, the paragraph below doesn't leave much room for doubt since they were speaking about the end of times...
Luke Chapter 21:
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. .
Forumschick, I do believe in scripture and if you would label my denomination, it would be universalist/praetorist... but nevertheless, I would bring out this ever so important truth...prophecy is not literal and needs to be intepreted as Peter has reminded us is above all of the most important thing to understand when interpreting prophetic scripture.. We are not to interpret in any other way than by the language provided us inthe scriptures and given to us under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So if we want to understand prophecy, then we are to look in scripture and determine what the expressions actually mean in the language of the Spirit.
I will quote David Crews as he brings a clarity to this passage that i could only repeat, and if I tried to paraphrase i wpould probably miss the simpicity that he has already applied in his teaching... I will just say that there is no disrespect implied to the Jewish people, and what is written is written as history has revealed.
Symbol:
SUN/MOON DARKENED or TURNED TO BLOOD
lnterpretation:
The darkness of a nation‘s distress, sorrow, and desolation.
Old Testament References:
ISAIAH 13:9-11 –
“See, the day of the Lord is coming – a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger – to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil.”
[NIV]
This passage, so similar in form to the words of Christ and of John, speaks of the destruction of the land of Babylon. This section is one of the “burdens” of various kingdoms that Isaiah was prophesying against. The “day of the Lord” was, as previously noted, the actual war event when, in this instance, Babylon was conquered by the Medes. In verse 17, God says, “behold, I will stir up the Medes against them.” Note also, that God punished the “world” for its evil – that is, the Babylonian “world.”
The imagery of the STARS WILL NOT SHOW THEIR LIGHT, the SUN DARKENED, and MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, simply reflects the great distress, despair, and desolation of the Babylonians when this terrible thing happened to them. It was as if the “sun went down on their nation,” as we might say it today.
The stars and physical universe did not go dark because the Medo-Persian empire supplanted the Babylonian one. This language is figurative.
ISAIAH 5:30 –
“And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea. And if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.”
This passage tells of the Assyrian attack and destruction of Israel in 721 B.C. This DARKNESS was obviously not literal. As the verse indicates, it was the pall of sorrow and despair of Israel as they suffered God’s wrath (v. 25) and were taken into captivity.
EZEKIEL 30:18; 32:7-8 –
“At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened, when I shall break there the yokes of Egypt: and the pomp of her strength shall cease in her: as for her, a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity.”
“And when I shall put thee [Pharaoh] out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.”
Here, we see a prophecy concerning Egypt. That nation would be destroyed by God, using the Babylonians (Ezek. 30:10) in 572 B.C. This destruction would cause the DARKNESS of distress and desolation to the conquered peoples of Egypt.
AMOS 8:9 –
“in that day,’ declares the Sovereign Lord, I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight”’
[NIV]
Amos prophesied for Israel, and this concerned the destruction and captivity of 721 B.C. by the Assyrians (see 6:14, and 5:27). The literal sun did not literally go down at noon and darken the earth. These were symbolic terms signifying the desolation and sorrow of the Israelites due to their calamity.
ZEPHANIAH 1:14-15 –
“The great day of the Lord is near – near and coming quickly....That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness....”
[NIV]
The symbolic or figurative nature of these phrases is very clear in this passage which speaks of the impending defeat of the nation of Judah. The DARKNESS and GLOOM, CLOUDS and BLACKNESS, were distress, anguish, trouble, and ruin!
New Testament References:
MATTHEW 24:29 –
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light....”
ACTS 2:20 –
“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come.”
REVELATION 6:12 –
“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red.”
[NIV]
Here, we find three prophecies of the same event. In Acts, we are told that “this is that” of which the prophet Joel spoke. It was the destruction of the Jewish nation in AD. 70, and the symbols are used in the same way as before. This DARKNESS would be terrible, indeed, for this would be a final destruction of the old Jewish nation.
John saw in his vision the events that were soon to take place and recorded them in symbols as if it were then happening. He saw the earth – the people involved, or the Jewish nation – being shaken by a great “earthquake” of invasion and war. Their desolation and sorrow turned their DAY into utter and complete BLACK, as black as the inside of a bag made of black goat hair, because they were now utterly cut off from God. Their MOON was TURNED BLOOD RED by their own blood which was shed and their violent destruction and removal from their ancestral land.
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| question for christians
Posted: 5/18/2008 5:01:28 PM | andy 7372
Any english version of the bible - translations can NEVER be 100% accurate two different languages involved, do you speak a foreign language I'm guessing not as you wouldn't be asking that question if you did. i do not have to learn original languages to fully understand scripture, if you really wanted to seek the truth, you would see that the main concepts of scripture still exist to this day and anyone who can translate properly will not disagree. there are certain passages in english which we translate as love, however the original version may say phileo or agape, we understand that it is a form of love, however it is expressed in different contexts, does it change the translation? not at all, the concept still remains. so, when translating and they see the original word for love which could be one of the two i listed above, they see other passages in which the same word is listed, see the context in which it is used and can come to the conclusion that the best english word to represent the original word is in fact love. I guess will have to agree to disagree on that one you can disagree with my opinions but you cannot disagree with facts and sadly that is what you are doing right now. which bible? every bible has the same general message no matter what way you want to interpret it, the message still remains. there are word for word bibles such as the nasb, esv, nkjv that emphasize accuracy of original languages then there are ones that have more of a thought for thought version which is the NIV and the NLT. for example a word that may translate as mark may mean in hebrew to take note, so instead of putting the word mark in a translation as the nasb may put, the niv may put to take note, which still means the same thing. "God will mark our actions" vs "God will take note our actions" it's the same thing just different translation styles to help people understand it better, key points remain, you cannot argue that because it is a fact. I have already discussed this with, in my opinion, a much more more learned gentleman please look through the thread and read the previous discussion. the basic fact remains that the book of isaiah was found within the scrolls, it was dated nearly 300 bc and when found, they could translate it and see that we have the same text in our bible today, the same text exists in early bible translations such as the codex sinaticus as well as the greek septuagint which are dated in the 300 ad's. most of the basis of bible translations are based upon those early versions but to have the book of isaiah be found and see that it is the same as those early ones as well as the ones we have now is a testament to the accuracy of God's word. Isaiah 40:8 states, "The grass withers, the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever" No matter what translation you use, the key point remains, the Bible is accurate and it changes lives. | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:05:49 PM | This is the way I see it.
My primitive understanding of the Trilogy is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all One.
Can an insect understand the complexities of a human being? How then, can a human being begin to hope to understand all of the complexities of God? We can try, and we should, but we won't know while we walk the earth.
The Holy Spirit of God is alive in each and every human being. Being animals, we don't allow the Holy Spirit to guide our lives to the extent that we should.
Will Jesus Christ return in human form to earth? I don't know, but what if He is already here? How do you treat each and every fellow human being? What if that person was Jesus himself? Would you treat him differently if you knew? Shouldn't we treat each and every person with the respect that is deserving of the Holy Spirit inside them?
Each and every day, our free will allows us to make decisions. God's Blessings are continuously showered upon us, but we don't always realize it. Think of all of the opportunities you have had in your life to become closer to God. How many did you capitalize on? How many times did you choose a path that did not lead to Him?
Everyone sins because all of us are human beings. But we can be forgiven of those sins and we can always turn ourselves towards God in more ways than we usually do.
Does this mean that everyone should pray all day long and not work at something else? I don't believe that. I believe our calling is to learn and grow and love. Just as good parents want the best for their children, how much more does the Father in Heaven want for his children to excel?
The end of our earthly life gives us an opportunity to understand many mysteries that we cannot solve here. I believe that a huge epiphany will envelop us and we will understand more of the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Given that knowledge, we will have the choice to knock on the door of Heaven and seek entrance, or to turn away from God. Surely only the truly evil will choose to turn away from God.
What can separate us from God's Love? Absolutely nothing. He will always be there to welcome us back. Knowing that you have the opportunity to grow closer to God each day that you walk the planet, imagine the shame that you will feel when you remember all of those failed opportunities. But your shame pales in comparison to God's Love and Forgiveness.
It's all Good, so just try to make it better every way that you can.
This is the way I see it. | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:17:11 PM | | i believe the same as mona lee becasue of what the bible say im new to reading these types of quetsions haveing said that if you want to know the manner of Jesus seciond coming or who he is or what his job was read the bible the old testamnet and then the new . i have alos found it depends on what bible u use if for example a bible version has beena round aslong time usually it is ok kjv is east to read but haveing said that it is jsut my beliefs now . | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:20:36 PM | | unfortunatlye if u can read the jewoish script the niv differ widely and is off teh mark and eys literal passing of chirst going into heaven in like manner he willcome agian. that was his pormise to the people present wehn he departed all of teh bible writ4er form the earliest times all agree about his second coming . all eyes shallsee him and the earthe wiilmelft with fervent heat . so ther is something bout the older versions of scriptures which were not pararpahrases and dont by one main guy . not offending you i hope sorry lol but taht is sjtu waht i ahve found form readinig the original and then the old kjv kjv is veryu easy to read . | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:24:16 PM | part of the calamities sopikn of yes was symboic but also literal in the event to come taht is waht prophecy is litereal coming of chirst is real the destruction of sin and sinners is there written in bold letter by several of teh new testament writers and old
. even job wrestled with the powers that be and he we found favored becasue he followed what he believed more importnalty he say even thought worms destroythis body yet inmy flesh sahlli see christ, and i willbe know even laso as i am known. is thsi literally on looks or is it jstu anice way of asy8ng im going ot reconize you in the earth made new | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:25:36 PM | | LOL, well, I "have" read the entire book of Mormon, and I don't recall Jesus coming over here making friends with the Indians, nor preaching to them. Maybe you should have read it, to have known what it was about. No, Im not Mormon, but I do like to read and when a book is so misunderstood such as the Book Of Mormon, I read to find out for myself. It is just another testiment to the bible as given to the Prophet Joseph Smith. And no, it is not a Mormon "bible". Not being disrespectful here by any means... | |
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DazzyB
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Joined: 10/9/2006
Msg: 58 | |
| question for christians
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:33:57 PM | Well, I've read all the way through these posts and find this most interesting. There are two observation that I which to make in regards to this topic...
1) Faith is the key. And I'm not talking about personal choices or believes here. I am talking about DEEP faith as a gift which can only be given by the Holy Spirit, and maybe ONLY another Christian will understand where I am coming from because it requires that PERSONAL experience alone with Christ. It can not be understood via discussion or human intellect. Sorry!! Once I was sharing with the Spirit, and I asked Him what 'faith' (the 'biblical word) actually was. I could not grasp the concept that personal choice could move mountains - I was on the right track. His' response was: FAITH = 'F'inding 'A'ssurance 'I'n 'T'rusting 'G'od. And we can only trust God AFTER He has made the promise otherwise we would be trusting in someting that wasn't reality.
2) Revelation clearly states that (11:19) the Ark of the Covenant is witnessed by John. So far the Ark has disappeared. I firmly believe that this will be one of the signs that the time has come.
Off Topic: What is interesting is that all through Scripture there is a pattern concerning the layout of the Garden (Tree of life to the west, entrance to the east - the only way in is through the flaming sword - shedding of blood (Jesus)), the layout of the Tabernacle (HoH to the west, entrance to the east - only way in is through the Altar (Shedding of blood (Jesus)), the temple of David (same layout as the tabernacle but with many more mentions of 'flowers and palm trees' etched into the walls (Eden restored in our hearts through Christ), and then we have the layout in Revelation - Tree of life to the west, entrance to the east - but funny enough it says in Chapter 4 'After these things I looked, and behold a door standing open...'. There is also no mention of Altars, flaming swords or any other form of shedding of blood in the heavenly tabernable. So, no blocked enterance or sacrifice. THE DOOR IS OPEN!! Jesus did it all and we can enter freely through Faith in Him!!
Sorry about the off topic bit, but I accidentally got a bit overwhelmed and excited!!
Dazza x | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/17/2008 11:03:21 PM | FAITH = 'F'inding 'A'ssurance 'I'n 'T'rusting 'G'od
I'm sure you meant "FAITH = 'F'inding 'A'ssurance 'I'n 'T'rusting 'H'im" but otherwise an interesting post.. well said I must admit.
As to the OP... I have one thing to say to you. If you don't know, you're not a true believer. There is a reason why religious and personal 'relationship' with God are different. | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/30/2008 8:00:23 AM | when he returns all people to include all people will be changed instantly into there spiritual bodies. So if some one comes and claims to be Christ and you can pinch yourself and it still hurts .........it is not him. Here are also other events which are laid out in the Bible that must come to pass before he, the one true Christ appears. It is a very interesting book, the Bible that is Oh and by the way..........Christ one rose one time and one time only and that was from his tomb. He will not rise again, he will RETURN in his glorified body. | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/30/2008 9:05:39 AM |
why do you people fill the forums with quotes from the bible?
Because it's what they are programed to do when they can't think for themselves... When people are raised & taught what to think instead of how to think they are incapable of original, rational thought & the default setting has them quoting fairy tales & myths etc.
The *rational* part of the brain just switches off & they become robots/drones. It's actually quite amusing in a sad sort of way...
hth. | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:47:15 PM | This was going to be my answer too:
Jesus said "My sheep know my voice" | |
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/30/2008 1:02:16 PM | To answer The limey:
People fill the forum with quotes from the Bible when they are citing a particular passage to make a point and back up their personal opinion. In reference to this particular OP and topic, there are many passages in the Bible that let us know that Jesus Christ will return to us. I won't bother citing them now. It appears that many have already done so.
We have been promised that He will return and according to Revelation in the Bible, there are many things that must happen first, before He can do so. Those things are happening according to His schedule, not ours.
There will be no doubt that it is He who has returned. It is clear in various passages in the Bible how He will appear. There will be no question that it is Him because no one could emulate something like that. The Bible says that He will appear in the clouds and I doubt anyone could miss Him as it sounds as if it will be a very loud arrival, not a mere distraction one could overlook or copy.
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| question for christians
Posted: 6/30/2008 5:41:16 PM | - In referance to Thelimey's post:
I'll have to assume that you've never included a reference to a text in any report, article, or paper you've ever written. Being able to quote from a source, regardless of what the source material is, is vitally necessary for any argument or thesis.
I think you're confusing "ignorance" with "Christianity". Many Christians can be ignorant and learned - the two are not exact opposite. The benefit to this day and age is that MANY Christians (pick your flavor) question their own church structure and either find new church families or endeavor to change the existing structure.
The "rational" part of the brain reads a book like the Bible and sees that there are principles and generalities. The "rational" person then looks at the context of the age/era and sees why some of the laws (dietary restrictions, for instance) were necessary. A person continues to learn more about the cultures of that era to see why the stories were shaped and recorded in that form.
Original and rational thought only comes through the understanding of pre-existing ideas and concepts. It's how we formulate our minds. We see something "in a new light". By your logic women's suffrage would never have come to play. | |
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