| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/11/2008 2:35:40 AM | "Out of all of this ...
The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Ever Taken
(The Size of the Universe, dedicated to Carl Sagen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw&feature=related
Also worth a look-see, The Very Best of Hubble:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Fs8oIdD7o&NR=1 | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 1:19:47 AM | Very interesting flick on youtube from expat57 in previous post and I believe that anyone who has not viewed it should do so before they even think of making another comment and I for one am grateful for having been made aware of it. And you will never guess why. It only seems to make my theory, and I repeat, theory and nothing more, even more believable at least to me. And the cool thing is the portion of the clip that it appears to me from my perspective. That is to say, what it looks like to me. If you would look at the very beginning you will see something that I have already proposed. Good old mother Earth is not spinning at all. Take another look and unless I am seeing things, I can see one of what I am calling a sphere or big big loosely formed group of galaxies or stars or just pins of light of various sizes rotating or spinning slowly. I have no idea of the time frame suggested on this flick. If true to what we can actually see in real time, the rotation or spinning would not even be visible. It would appear stationary because of the massiveness of the view. As I have stated previously, you kind of have to remember that movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind or whatever the name was. Now when this unreal an huge alien ship appeared in the sky it just was all one could see as they looked up. Now imagine that what you see when you look up on a clear night away from city lights is the same type of roundish type object. Do not concern yourself with distance as you look. Now if you could be on the opposite side of the planet Earth it would be daylight so you wouldn't see this. But imagine that it is also dark outside and you get a clear view with no city lights. You see the same thing, only different galaxies or stars or pins of light in the sky. Now imagine it is a completely different sphere or circle or Close Encounter type object but as described previously. Now you go to another point on earth, and another and another. You will get different views but the same thing. I have not looked into the direction of rotation or spinning of these spheres or circles or whatever they could be named. It appears to me as if it is spheres or whatever that slowly rotate and even intertwine or mesh with each other. I haven't gotten into how many spheres there are and really it isn't all that important to be exact for the sake of my "theory" but the rotation direction is a bit more important. Now I know what the first comment will be. "From the space station or with the Hubble lenses focused on the Earth , the earth is seen rotating around the Sun. But is it really? Or is the sun rotating around the Earth. The moon may be an exception because it is close enough to not be able to escape Earths pulling or gravity effect if there actually is such a thing. Whoever came up with the entire universe being 78 billion light years across is full of it. Do they see a wall or a big sheet of glass or something. If the Hubble was 78 billion light years away and looked further out than would they see the end of the universe or would they see another 78 billion light years of distance. This is what I mean about believing what someone else state. Who came up with the 78 billion light years away. Probably Ghoulardi -Please type his name into youtube video search and you will see who most likely came up with this arbitrary figure. This guy is an absolute genius and he is even from my home town of Cleveland Ohio. Let me know what you think. If you believe the 78billion year thing I am sure he could have explained it to a barmaid as Einstein suggested, and I intend to at least attempt to do. Before anyone decides to rip on my thoughts, at least have the decency to view this fine lady's previous post and take a look at the most important photo ever taken and then take a look at a genius at work on my Ghoulardi site. I am not good at creating links to post but if I get time I know how to do it, but I normally like to make sure it is a good link that will direct you to the site. Ghoulardi is way too cool. I guarantee you that you will not feel you have wasted your time. It is about 9 minutes so be sure to watch the whole thing----Daniel | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 9:11:29 AM | | Large astronomical distances are derived by measuring and quantifying light spectra from type 1A supernovas. Shorter distances are derived by triangulation. What hubble would see if it was at the edge of the universe looking out is a good question. What I can tell you is the universe or the sun or any other major body(except the moon) does not revolve around the Earth. Two thousand years ago people believed that, now there is way too much evidence to believe anything remotely like that. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 10:39:13 AM | KaptDan .. I did *not* read through that big, fat, giant bunch of .. uhmmm .. words. If you would like me (and perhaps others) to give honest consideration to your posts, please use paragraphs with spaces between lines.
From what I skimmed of what you wrote, I'm not sure I want to comment .. there are people who post in the Science Forums that are way more educated and analytical than I will ever be. It's why I browse here. (Just love to listen to dem smart mens .. *wink* ..!) I often lurk but rarely post as I usually have not one thing to add to conversations other than a distracting 'AWESOME INSIGHT! ... or 'Any chance a smartypants-sort such as yourself would consider a tropical vacation with intent to meet an adores-smartypants-sorts Lady like me?' or something that would be equally annoying for those interested in the thread topic to read. So I refrain from littering the threads.
As this is your thread and not that of someone actually discussing science or philosophy
(you're instead contemplating 'junk-science .. which has me pause here and suggest: Have you phoned George Noory lately? He would get a kick out of hearing from you and you could keep a logbook documenting each time you got through and how long he let you pontificate before going to the next caller .. ?! .. just a suggestion as to where you might meet like-minded conversationalists)
.. but .. as this is your thread .. well .. here are my thoughts (humble and without super-charged-intelligence as they are):
Coming up with your own version of 'the way things are' .. a way-cool way to spend time together while sipping adult beverages on a starry night in the tropics .. but a waste of time if you expect people with educated answers to enter into your conversations .. much of what you 'theorize' and/or debunk has already been contemplated and moved past ..
(example)
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html
After wading through as much of your hard-to-read writing as I'm going to .. did you have a point you were trying to make? a question? .. something .. and can you express it with brevity? Otherwise, not necessary to post a comment back to me. I won't be reading through any more long, rambling .. uhmmm .. paragraphs posted without the courtesy of spacing. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:05:02 AM | As a donor to over 10,000 hours of computer time at SetiAtHome, I'm equally disappointed about having no contact. But if you think about it, intelligent civilizations have to be in the same stage of their technological evolution to communicate over the vast distances of space. This is in addition to all the other low probability factors such as ideal distance from a star, not "to big" planetary neighbors like Jupiter, presence of heavy metals from third generation supernovae stars, etc. (Check out the Drake Equations). I'd really like to learn of some contact in my lifetime, but the distances are so large that it'd be unlikely to ever exchange information in my life time. (May we shouldn't respond since more advanced civilization might likely be hostile to us protozoa!) Stephen Hawking is beginning to believe that maybe we are alone since no evidence has come our way. Maybe it's the search that counts and not the actual contact that counts. Given that the time line of human civilization is like the last three seconds of a year (Carl Sagan), perhaps we're merely impatient. Now that signals from earth have traveled by 90 star systems since "I Love Lucy" was on TV, maybe we should be concerned what we are sending out! Any civilization of our level would presumably be capable of picking up our rather strong signals in space. It's a big universe but we're just getting started -- we didn't know about the existence of other galaxies until 1923, we've got a lot to learn about the cosmos. After all, WE are a part of the universe that is become aware of itself! Think about it.
PS:
(I urge to to research the concept of the Anthropic Principle also). | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:16:55 AM | We'll be able to show up on their doorstep long before that signal ever gets there anyways.
Browsing your thread again I came across this opinion .. to which I reply:
Humans will eventually become extinct and this planet uninhabitable .. Homo sapiens from Earth existing in the universe 'forever' will only happen if we can figure a way off this planet and onto others. There is not enough humans-on-the-planet time remaining to come up with the technology to do that (to leave this planet as colonists seeking a destination to save our species from inevitability of a dying planet.)
Perhaps the same is true elsewhere in the universe. Fun to contemplate civilizations with technologies born of extreme intellegence .. but the universe being what it is, wouldn't it make sense that other life forms would have the same/similar building blocks and the same obstacles as we do? | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:25:47 AM | expat wrote:
Humans will eventually become extinct and this planet uninhabitable .. Homo sapiens from Earth existing in the universe 'forever' will only happen if we can figure a way off this planet and onto others. There is not enough humans-on-the-planet time remaining to come up with the technology to do that .. to leave this planet as colonists seeking a destination to save our species from inevitability of a dying planet.
why do you say that? we have already left our planet, the planet itself has at least 4 billion years left in it. even if it take us 50 years to our nearest neighbour it can be done. Humans may evolve into another species so homo sapien sapiens will become extinct but humans won't necessarily.
and to other posters - isn't feasible that a "aliens" that are more advanced are using another form of technology to communicate with us, other than radio waves, and are sitting at their computers talking on a forum discussing the ignorant earthlings who won't respond to their messages? | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 12:57:05 PM | even if it take us 50 years to our nearest neighbour it can be done
Fairly recently discovered, the closest known (potentially) Earth-like planet to us revolves around Gilese 876, a red dwarf star located nearly 15 light years away. Technology to leave this planet and to travel the hazards of space (just getting outside the outer ring of this solar system, even!) ... to something that far ... there is simply not enough time to develop it. Seems this is an idea young, graduating physics majors are taught as a challenge to overcome. Almost makes sense to figure out how to continue living on a dead planet with extreme temperatures .. as that is what earth will eventually become. Even then, the sun will expand and consume it .. eventually dying out itself. But .. does that take the conversation to a thread-drift? Perhaps developing a self-sustaining craft .. bio-sphere-style is the answer .. because the distance involved is more than we will overcome.
My reply to your other question about 'homo sapiens evolving' into the world our technologies and the damages our 'intelligence' is inflicts on our environment .. would be another major thread-drift. The probable timeframe for human extinction is not a scientific given .. but a google search would be much more informative than anything I have to say. As I'd already pointed out, I am not smart enough (fascinated, YES!) but not educated enough to be considered a source of any real info. I show up to learn.
I came out of lurking-mode and back into this thread after KaptDan there sent me a private message .. for no other reason .. I didn't quite understand the point he was trying to make in his private message .. so dropped again from lurk-mode, and only because it was he who started this thread. Otherwise I'd still be reading from the rafters. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 2:23:02 PM | expat - Yes I've heard the sun will turn into a red giant and "probably" consume the earth, but we could go to mars or titan? or the bio-sphere thing which is more than likely in my view.
....but not educated enough to be considered a source of any real info...I show up to learn...
sorry to disappoint you, but don't for one minute think anybody on here is an "expert". Most people quote stuff from the internet and they are only giving opinions and your opinion is worth just as much as anybody elses.
stay out of the rafters and join in. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 3:48:24 PM |
expat - Yes I've heard the sun will turn into a red giant and "probably" consume the earth, but we could go to mars or titan? or the bio-sphere thing which is more than likely in my view.
Only a fool would speculate on what mankind will do in a billion years. Expat posts are one of the more reasonable - why single her out? | |
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AK2FL
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Joined: 5/27/2007
Msg: 61 | |
| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 7:29:41 PM | | I think it is ego-centric to think that we are the only life ANYWHERE. The distances are so vast, and the time we are here is so short........that lessens the chances of proof being found in our lifetimes. I think are probably millions, if not more, life forms out there. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 9:49:03 PM | Further to post 39 about the Urantia book. I was skimming the posts to see if anyone would mention it. It is a very interesting read even if you just take it as a novel (which it's not intended as) and tells a story of why we seem to be alone. It's more a philosphy - no religious but quite a large science section in it too to explain how th planet and life got here.
The story goes that we are basically a prison planet in isolation because of the Lucifer rebellion. There is a huge network of celestial commuications but we are cut off from it. The Lucifer manifesto was not about eating an apple in the garden of Eden. It was about Adam and Eve choosing to do as they willed rather than following the instructions of the "god" the Urantia book speaks of (which is far more complex and mysterious than the one in the bible".) The premise is that only the eternal source can guide living beings into eternal life.Otherwise we perish. Lucifer says that's not fair and we should be able to do whatever we want and still be eternal. That's a very simplified version of it anyway.The catch is that the so called powers that be have the power to deny eternal life, Lucifer on the other hand cannot guarantee it to us. So whom would you believe.(It's a collosal mind fuk but like I said, it's a cool read).
It's a long story but basically it says we have been cut off from the rest of the multiverses so that the Lucifer rebellion does not spread to all the other planets. There are thousands like us spwning life which is meant to be eternal. Meanwhile we are evolving and learning from the consequences of our actionsindividually. If we listen to our inner voice or conscience we bond with it and that fuses us with our internal adjuster (conscience) whish is eternal as it is a spark from the eternal (god). If we choose to deny our conscience then the internal adjuster abandons us and we perish when our bodies perish. There are several types of death and also partial fusion with the internal adjuster which we can go on to develop further after we die in various spiritual levels of existence beyond "here". Apparently we all get an internal adjuster about the age of 9 - 11. Some of us reject it quite young and by the time we are adults have already been abandoned by it and we barely have any memory or concept of a conscience (sounds like someone I know LOL). Others have an acute sense of conscience and are fully fused with it (I think I know someone like that too). It says about 80% of people are somewhere in between, not fused, not abandoned. Sounds like most people I know.
Like I said it's a long story but a great read. If you are interested in the bible you may find the last third of it fascinating. It basically says Jesus came here to live as a human so that when he takes over rulership of earth he will have walked a mile in our shoes. It also says the miracles were accidents. He was not supposed to be able to have special powers but he couldn't help doing miracles because as soon as you fully believe something you make it manifest. Not hoping, but removing ALL doubt. I looked in the bible and I think that's what Jesus is reported to have said the most. Our real power to create and manifest is in our knowing our limitlessness.That matter is not limited to what we have come to believe. When we unbelieve we realise mind over matter is just a state of mind but most can't handle it becuae we are not eveolved enough to be that open minded. It also says he did not come here to pay for anyones sins. Everyone pays for themselves. Like kharma sort of.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convert anyone becuase it's not a religion but it's very interesting especially if you like philosophical "where did we come from -where are we going - WHY ARE WE ALONE" sorts of stuff but there are very few who have read it so it's hard to find anyone t talk to about it (hi sam spade).
I personaly don't think it makes sense that we're the only ones here but I'm not sure who else is out there and I'm ok with that. If and when I need to know and am ready to know perhaps then I will. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/12/2008 10:19:01 PM | If the universe is so big and so old, what are the odds that intelligent life will develop on the same scale within the same time frame that will allow them to communicate on the same level.
And even if they could communicate, would they even wish to, considering how vastly different they could be from one another. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/13/2008 2:37:04 AM | | Actually given the immensity and scale of the universe and the tiny dot within that ocean that is the solar system, many scientists and philosophers have argued that the odds of there being intelligent life are extremely high...in others words something in the order of billions to 1 that there isn't. Put simply, it is far far far MORE likely that this computer screen I am looking at is a figment of my imagination than that there isn't intelligent life somewhere... | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:00:19 AM | And we are a tiny dot .. even tinier than you would first think if you'd not been exposed to size comparisons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRU43nbVaz8&feature=related
what mankind will do in a billion years
Earth has been inhabitable for about 4.5 billion years. It is guesstimated another .5 billion years will be inhabitable with a total of 7.5 billion before it is swallowed up by the sun and long before that happens the earth will again become molten.
Extinction .. there are scientists who predict human extinction is possible in the next 100-150 years based on global warming and melting polar ice caps .. other scientists are predicting thousands of years. (Not billions.) There is simply not enough time .. (this is not a global warming thread!) .. as we are not working on the problem of possible extinction, with it staring us in the face .. seems unlikely the whole world is going to devote resources on getting off this planet and into universal travel mode .. Considering the whole science of predicting how long we will be on this planet .. and how our own evolution might compare to the evolution of life on another planet. Would their 'intelligence' .. their technologies .. also find them unwittingly destroying their planet too?
Mars as an alternative? Possible but not probable. Easier to hunt down an internet source of why:
http://www.spacecentre.no/English/The_Universe/Mars/Can_we_live_on_Mars+/ | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/13/2008 10:56:48 AM | | im sorry but the spherical notion is still a little absurd due to the fact that the sphere would have to be ominesant | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/13/2008 11:02:07 AM | | hmm for some reson the end of my post after the ominecant has been cut... i wonder if i touched on something i shouldnt have... | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/13/2008 11:11:26 AM | ok i am trying this again but... heavily edited
in other words a single sphere has an outside and still a definate shape and there would still be a definate end... if we (humanity) dont know the first bit about it how can you form an educated guess with no education in the fact.. it is all pretty much a mute point... we should direct our abilitys to things we can grasp , update technology we have. we can advance towards an answer instead of strictly guessing... once we progress... the info to start that discussion might become attainable
... if the space between this and heavily edited are empty, sorry | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/15/2008 1:03:34 AM | | They may communicate on a much larger scale, using light. Think about it. If an entire star was used to represent one letter, they could more or less use an entire galaxy to communicate with photonic variations over millenia to say, "hello." | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:39:20 AM | "we should direct our abilitys to things we can grasp , update technology we have. we can advance towards an answer instead of strictly guessing"
But that's how we advance. It's the effort to understand that we develop the means to learn. Such developments lead to new discoveries as well as applications to other areas. Ironic but true. | |
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| We are all alone in space and time.
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:27:35 AM | Dear KaptDan,
Yes, there has been findings of complex carbon molecules (proteins or their bulding blocks) in meteorites. Also in polar caps, but that's on Earth, so no need to bring those into a question of extraterrestial life.
Regarding the radio signals: They have bombarded us for millennia or for billennia by now. It's just that we cannot read them. Our tools of analysis is incapable of separating them from all the celestial radio transmittals, such as pulsars and other stuff that give them out. There are an increadibly large amounts of this reaching the earth, from literally over a billion sources. How could we ever separate them out? Not to mention that the signals emitted by santient short-wave radio hobbyist aliens and extraterrestial radio- and tv stations are probably very weak, they're thwarted by the pulsation by at least a billion black holes in their vicinity.
But let's say we'd be able to separate out a signal and establish it's from the transmission of a santient being. What then? We don't know how to interpret these signals. Our radio and tv signals are only meaningful for us because the engineers that build the stations are also the engineers that build the receptors. Signals can take an infinite form and variety, and therefore finding one and trying to interpret them is impossible by all practical methods.
But even if we broke this practical code, what then? The aliens, if their signal is of their version of The Brady Bunch, speak a different language, and live, likely, under hugely different conditions. How can we, from a signal, learn their language? To learn a language we must attach meaning to symbols. When symbols have to be attached to unknowable meaning, we cannot learn their language.
Think of the dolphins and whales. They communicate in some sort of song and dance. We can record them. We can analyse the signal. We can turn it inside out and upside down, and still we haven't a clue what these aquatic animals are talking about. And they're right in front of us, in our faces! We see their actions! Putting meaning to their symbols should not be so hard then! But we cannot do it, still.
So I reject your argument that there are no signals from outer space reaching us. I assert there are lots, and I assert we cannot pick them out, recognise them for what they are, interpret them and understand them.
From a practical perspective, your and my statements are the same. From a philosophical perspective, they are very different, like night and day. | |
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