| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:55:00 PM | I could do 5 at 150lbs, and after about 2 years I was doing 10 with an added 60lbs at a bodyweight of 200lbs.
I've seen Squelchy's before and after pics. I believe every word he says. The proof is in the results. If he posted them, people would probably take it wrong, imo.
15 pound gain is amazing, Thomas. Gratz.
I still can't do a freakin pull-up unassisted. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:41:05 PM |
I still can't do a freakin pull-up unassisted.
Well with your torn hip-flexor leaving your lower-body effectively benched, it's the perfect time for you to get on an upper-body specialization program! :^D
Christopher93 | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:09:36 PM | It's not torn! Just pulled it.
I think my back is my weakest area. I would love to have a strong sexy back like BP's. I haven't trained in a while, so I need to re-commit.
Takes time and gasoline. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:47:33 PM |
It's not torn! Just pulled it.
Torn! :^P
A "pull" is a nice, fuzzy name we give to a first to second-degree strain; a tearing of the muscle tissue.[/smartypants] | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/18/2008 8:52:30 PM | i recommend losing weight first. there is great strain on the wrists and elbows.
i like to do upside down pullups, leg lifts, forward and reverse spins. i wouldn't worry about counting in as much as staying on the bar as long as you can doing as much as you can. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/18/2008 9:35:53 PM | if you can't do a regular pullup, use bands attached to a power rack to assist you until you can do them unassisted(taken from starting strength). Another option is to perform horizontal pullups(also called an inverted row) with a barbell on a rack where its stationary(can be done with feet on the ground or elevated on a bench).
Implenting any of the above is sure way to build strength in the posterior chain and increase your pullup strength overall. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:52:56 AM | I agree, I worked out like a MF'er this winter. Went from summer weight 193 to 224. I have an at home way to check my body fat, well anyway now that I am leaning out again it looks like I gained about 5 pounds of muscle out of 21 pounds.
Oh well, slow and steady wins the race. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:34:40 PM | | knew it was pointless posting on here if i had pictures i would show me and to all the flamers on my post you dont know me or anything about me so who are you to say that i didnt.. and no the girls aproach me asking about what to do for this muscle or that one not to hit on me | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/19/2008 8:30:26 PM | There is some good information here...
I don't find a reason not to believe the weight gain though... I can put on some serious muscle weight myself but I have tremendous genetics. I have been able to maintain my weight at 285lbs for over a year with pretty intense weight lifting. I have been doing some "standard" exercises and not been doing dips or pull ups. People have noticed the significant change in body shape and ask me how much weight i have lost. Recently I stopped going to the gym for 2 months because of a hip flexor injury and I dropped 20 lbs.. I think a small portion of it was from muscle loss and the rest from fat loss.. Had I been maintaining my workouts I doubt I would have lost much more then 5 lbs total.
But realize In a years time I have dropped from consistently wearing a XXL or XXXL shirt and 40inch waist pants to an XL shirt and 36 inch waist pants but been maintaining my weight through out. I have NOT changed my diet for the past 3 years but have only been modifying my workout routine.
I expect that for me it is not an unrealistic goal to go from my ~ 270 lb 16.9% body fat to 300 lbs 10% body fat within a year. The biggest changes? I will be enlisting a personal trainer and paying more attention to the work I am doing. I will also be changing my diet as I can. But I do realize that if I DO get my 300 lb goal I will likely not get any bigger.. May take another year to add another 5-10 lbs if I am lucky and then only if I decide to try to build to be a body builder.. I plan to be more of a power lifter. I fully expect to max out at that weight and just maintain a weight near there. I don't have people wanting me to train them but I do get accused of using steroids because of my rapid progress.. I hope to add Creatine and some other suppliments to my regime as well to speed up the process..
So although it is common for people to "exaggerate" their gains lets not forget that when you make major changes to your routine you can make tremendous gains ... (Almost as much as when you first start out..) Its not until you have built up that base that you add weight on slowly. A change in simply doing exercises right can make a HUGE difference..
I expect the majority of my weight gain to come from my long neglected legs and my long neglected chest. Since both of those are very large muscle groups I don't think my adding a few lbs is out of the question. I have trainers now that have watched me grow and offer if I wanted to compete I could and do well within a very short period of time at the local events they could definetly help me out. I have been blessed as being a very easy gainer...
So I look forward to absorbing information off here to help speed up my growth.
I also have issues with one of my shoulders due to past extreme dislocation. I have to do rotator cuff exercises to stabilize it and I have to use dumb bells presses as opposed to barbell presses. They want to do surgery but I can not afford the year of rehab at this point.
Rodney | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:09:29 PM | ^^^^^ So you think you are going to gain 46 pounds of muscle and drop 7% bodyfat in a year?
No way, won't happen. If it does get your body fat tester calibrated. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:40:57 PM |
Recently I stopped going to the gym for 2 months because of a hip flexor injury and I dropped 20 lbs.. I think a small portion of it was from muscle loss and the rest from fat loss.. Had I been maintaining my workouts I doubt I would have lost much more then 5 lbs total.
If the vast majority of the 20lbs was from fat lost and not muscle, you think you would have lost LESS weight by doing MORE exercise? What?
I expect that for me it is not an unrealistic goal to go from my ~ 270 lb 16.9% body fat to 300 lbs 10% body fat within a year.
270lbs, 17% bodyfat:
Lean mass = 224.1lbs
Fat = 45.9lbs
300lbs, 10% bodyfat:
Lean mass = 270lbs
Fat = 30lbs
As someone else said, if you can gain 46lbs of muscle and lose 16lbs of fat in a year then you are the son of God or have been blessed by the Easter bunny or something. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 2:39:07 AM | Yup, I am a freak of nature...
About 7 years ago I was playing football and started out at about 285... I had somewhat stronger legs at the time. With my only supplement being creatine I was GAINING 2-3 lbs per week but yet loosing fat. Topped out at about 305 but probably more like 20% body fat at that time.
I FULLY expect that 45 lbs in a year is NOT unreasonable.
BUT you have to realize I expect the MAJORITY of that weight to be gained in my Legs and Chest which are two areas I have neglected. That is also taking in supplements such as Creatine and any other legal supplements. It also includes getting a trainer and getting my program more in line.
That is also getting my legs and chest to a position I could compete locally very well in power lifting competitions. Right now I would be happy if I was doing bench presses of 250lbs and squats of 400lbs... In a year I could easily come close to doubling those numbers with the proper training and diet.. (Atleast a 50% increase minimal.) Again you have to realize I used to squat 700+ when I was younger and I am depending alot on muscle memory and such. I never worked out that hard when I was squatting 700 lbs.. I rode my bike alot. With the proper training tweaks and diet it is very realistic for me to obtain those things. However the only thing that MIGHT slow me down in that quest is that at age 40 I don't know how much testosterone I have lost.
Rodney | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:27:08 AM | Darn, Squelchy! I was just going to post those same calculations! 
45lbs of pure muscle in a year?
No juice?
Pics plz. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:34:42 AM |
Darn, Squelchy! I was just going to post those same calculations!
45lbs of pure muscle in a year?
No juice?
Pics plz.
45lbs of muscle in a year even with juice is pretty much impossible to.
I'm fairly certain the only person I know of capable of gaining that much muscle that quickly tends to turn green and become angry at the same time. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:52:07 AM | | Rodney you obviouly know what you are doing when you lift and are big and strong. But your expectations are unrealistic. But what the hell shoot for the moon and get what you can. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:15:07 AM | | Good advice. I would add: do the reps slowly, about 4 sec. positive and 4 sec. negative, so you'll reach failure in 60 to 90 sec., depending upon how many reps you do. And you don't need multiple sets; one set to failure is all that's needed. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:20:32 AM | | The best thing for a weak or sore back is the MedX Healthy Back machine or, at least, the MedX Lumbar machine. Many people mistakenly exercise the hip flexors when they think they're working the spinal erectors. The aforementioned machines isolate the erector spinae, eliminating the problem. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:20:44 PM |
do the reps slowly, about 4 sec. positive and 4 sec. negative
I think this is poor advice for most people. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 3:51:15 PM |
And you don't need multiple sets; one set to failure is all that's needed.
Is that true? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason? | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:43:23 PM | OH YA...I jumped on the "body weight" workout bandwagon back in November...
...it takes a spotter at first...when I started I could barely do 2 wide grip pull ups and maybe 3 dips....in 3 or 4 months I jumped from 133 to 145 lbs....I've kinda leveled off...haven't seen much gains lately...but I'll admit I've been slackin' on my carlorie intake....my food burns up before it hits my f*ckin' mouth....
...but don't stop at pull ups...my absolute favorite exercise is vertical (upside down) push ups....f*ckin' TOUGH when you first start out....just like all the other exercises...buddy and I were doin' about 1 1/2 each with a spot last winter...now we're both ready to start strappin' on ankle weights....
for the upper chest....high decline pushups with a weight on the back....f*ck the bench...neglecting your core is never a good idea.... | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:22:45 PM |
Is that true? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason?
There's a lot of evidence for and against it.
A single set of strength training exercises can build muscle as effectively as multiple sets. This has been reported in scientific literature for a number of years. But the "tradition" of three sets or more doesn't die easily.
In 1998, an analysis of multiple previous studies compared single-set and multiple-set strength training. Thirty-three out of 35 studies examined showed no significant difference between single sets and multiple sets in regard to strength gains or lean muscle mass increases. Another study found that using a weight sufficient to fatigue the muscle at about 12 repetitions is optimal stimulus for strength gain.
Based on this information, working the major muscle groups two to three times a week — doing a single set of each exercise — with a weight that tires the muscle at 12 repetitions is all most people need to do for an effective strength training program. That is great news for people who have been spending too much time in the weight room doing three or more sets.
Keep in mind, bodybuilders and some athletes MAY gain additional benefit from multiple-set weight training.
Source: Mayo Clinic
Single versus multiple sets in long-term recreational weightlifters
Center for Exercise Science, Department of Exercise and Sports Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
Purpose: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of increasing training volume from one set to three sets on muscular strength, muscular endurance, and body composition in adult recreational weight lifters.
Methods: Forty-two adults (age 39.7 ± 6.2 yr; 6.2 ± 4.6 yr weight training experience) who had been performing one set using a nine-exercise resistance training circuit (RTC) for a minimum of 1 yr participated in this study. Subjects continued to perform one set (EX-1;N = 21) or performed three sets (EX-3;N = 21) of 8-12 repetitions to muscular failure 3 d·wk-1 for 13 wk using RTC. One repetition maximums (1-RM) were measured for leg extension (LE), leg curl (LC), chest press (CP), overhead press (OP), and biceps curl (BC). Muscular endurance was evaluated for the CP and LE as the number of repetitions to failure using 75% of pretraining 1-RM. Body composition was estimated using the sum of seven skinfold measures.
Results: Both groups significantly improved muscular endurance and 1 RM strength (EX-1 by: 13.6% LE; 9.2% LC; 11.9% CP; 8.7% OP; 8.3% BC; and EX-3 by: 12.8% LE; 12.0% LC; 13.5% CP; 12.4% OP; 10.3% BC) (P 0.05).
Two of the studies (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5); 116 & 165, 1998) examine strength and size increases as a result of one set or three sets of 8-12 repetitions to muscular failure three days a week. Strength was assessed for both one rep max and reps at 75% of pretraining max, in the bench press, row, arm curl, leg extension and leg curl. Muscle thickness increases were measured by ultrasound in eight locations covering the upper and lower body.
The researchers found almost identical increases in upper and lower body thickness for both the one-set (13.6%) and three-set (13.12%) groups. Increases in one rep maximum were also essentially the same, for all five exercises, but the principle of specificity asserted itself on one exercise when it came to maximum reps or endurance. Both groups showed significant across-the- board increases in endurance, but the 3-set group showed significantly greater improvement in the bench press. At 25 weeks, the one-set group averaged 22 reps in the bench press compared to 27 for those doing 3-sets.
The third 6-month study by the Pollock group (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5): S163, 1998) focused on increases in knee-extension strength in three different modes: one-rep max, isometric peak torque and training weight. Again, there was no significant difference between the one-set and three-set groups. One-rep max increased 33.3% and 31.6% for 1 set and 3 sets, respectively; isometric increases were 35.4% versus 32.1%; and training weight increases were 25.6% compared to 14.7%
Even though the researchers apparently didn't find it significant, note that the one-set group gained slightly more strength in the first two modes and substantially more in training weight (25.6% versus 14.7%). It seems to me that specificity is at work again. When you do only one set there's nothing to keep you from doing your absolute best; but when you plan to do three sets it's natural to hold back and pace yourself. I believe that's probably why the one-set group gained more strength. They triggered more muscle fibers than the 3-set group, where pacing probably reduced intensity somewhat.
The fourth study by the Pollock group (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5): S274, 1998), also 6 months long, showed significant increases in circulating insulin-like growth factors (IGFs) in both one-set (34%) and three-set (30%) groups. Dr. Carpinelli, who teaches the neuromuscular aspects of strength training at Adelphi University (Long Island, New York), says, "IGFs are multifunctional protein hormones, whose production in the liver and other tissues is stimulated by growth hormones." They are important because, "They stimulate glucose and amino acid uptake, protein and DNA synthesis, and growth of bones, cartilage, and soft tissue."
The researchers concluded: "The elevation of IGFs is no greater with high- than low-volume resistance training." That's noteworthy, because it's generally believed that high-set training results in more growth hormone secretion. (See Growth Hormone Synergism by Douglas M. Crist, Ph.D., 2nd Edition, 1991.
(Unfortunately this book is no longer in print.)
The final study by the Pollock group (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. Supplement 30(5): S115, 1998) addresses the training experience issue. As you'll recall, some have suggested that experienced trainers might benefit from higher volume. In other words, after you've been training for a while, you need increased volume to continue progressing - more is better. According to this study, those people should think anew.
The researchers recruited 40 adults who had been performing one set to muscular fatigue, using nine exercises, for a minimum of one year; average training time was six years. The participants were randomly assigned to either a one-set or three-set group; both groups did 8-12 reps to failure three days per week for 13 weeks.
Both groups significantly increased their one-rep maximum strength and endurance. There was no significant difference in the gains made by the two groups in the leg extension, leg curl, bench press, overhead press and arm curl. The researchers concluded: "These data indicate that 1 set of [resistance training] is equally as beneficial as 3 sets in experienced resistance trained adults."
Another research group, K.L. Ostrowski and colleagues, tested "the effect of weight training volume on hormonal output and muscular size and function" in experienced trainers. (Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 11(3): 148-154, 1997) Thirty-five males, with one to four years weight-training experience, were assigned to one of three training groups: one-set, two-sets, or four sets. All participants did what I would call a periodized routine; they changed the rep range every few weeks. They did free-weight exercises four times a week for ten weeks using 12 reps maximum (week 1-4), 7 reps max (week 5-7) and 9 reps (week 8-10). All sets were performed to muscular fatigue with three minutes rest between sets. The only difference between the three programs was the number of sets.
As in the Pollock group studies, no significant differences in results were found. The authors concluded: "...A low volume program ... [one set of each exercise] ... results in increases in muscle size and function similar to programs with two to four times as much volume."
Significantly, regarding hormone output, they concluded: "High volume [four sets of each exercise] may result in a shift in the testosterone/cortisol (anabolic/catabolic) ratio in some individuals, suggesting the possibility of overtraining." In other words, high-volume training not only doesn't produce better results, it may also lead to overtraining.
The Bottom Line
After considering this new evidence, Dr. Ralph Carpinelli sums-up: "The lack of scientific evidence that multiple sets...produce a greater increase in strength or size, in itself, provides a rationale for following a single set training protocol."
That seems to be where we are today based on the latest peer-reviewed scientific evidence. Unless you're training to accomplish a task that must be repeated over and over, there appears to be no good reason for most people to spend hours in the gym doing set after set. Volume training works, as my last article concluded, but in most cases the strength and size gains are no better than result from warming-up and performing one hard set.
The choice is yours.
http://www.cbass.com/NEWEVIDE.HTM
Hopefully that explains some of it for you.
Try both, see what works best for you. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/23/2008 11:39:23 PM |
And you don't need multiple sets; one set to failure is all that's needed.
Is that true? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason?
Nobody ever won a medal at the Olympics, or won a single strongman, weightlifting, powerlifting, or bodybuilding competition using this method.
There are many anecdotal reports of the pro bodybuilders endorsing Mr. Mentzer's "high-intensity training method" with its one-set-to-failure philosophy, actually working out at their gyms using typical 5x5 and 4x8-12 training methods. They were just endorsing the training method for money. It actually isn't very good.
Just my 2c.
Christopher93 | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:51:00 AM | | I personally know a few giant MFer's using the doggcrapp method, I don't think it is the only way to go, but it is a viable alternative. | |
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| dips, chin-ups and pull-ups...
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:52:50 AM |
I personally know a few giant MFer's using the doggcrapp method, I don't think it is the only way to go, but it is a viable alternative.
Yeah, but Doggcrapp isn't doing one set to failure, it's doing one set to failure three times.
Rest-pausing is a fantastic way of experiencing superb gains, but that's not what he was talking about originally, I don't think. | |
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