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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/6/2008 7:02:17 PM |
Some could argue that legally it could be construed as rape, but we all know what it was...a drunk who made a poor choice, contracted something because of it, and now feels remorse for said poor choice and wants to villify the "perp", while assuming ZERO personal accountability.
Any Lawyer worth a shit would just need to see your "#5" entry and there'd be no case. The rest is immaterial. Actually, no Lawyer I could think of would touch this case with a 10 foot pole just because of that one point. No one ever just "went along" with rape.
Also "#3" is a red flag against you.
This case likely wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell.
Sorry.
Well, you're 100% wrong about no lawyer touching it, Sparky, and here's why:
3. Feel very very drunk after one drink...... Very intoxicated by this point...... Still maintaining that you don't want to have sex with him, and tell him you're leaving..... Try to change the subject several times.
5. Shocked, in disbelief, mentally very confused. Attempt one more time to leave. He starts kissing you, and you at this point are SO drunk, you just go with it.
Everything stated there points to 1) diminished capacity, 2) refusal of advances, 3) attempts to disengage from the situation. If there is even one witness who will say that she was blitzed and that he was Octopus Man, the case is a a very good one.
I find it truly disturbing the number of men who voice an opinion on this thread that if a woman "goes along with it" that it can't possibly be rape. I suspect most of it is because trolling for hot drunk chick is a favorite sport, not because of any righteous belief in "personal responsibility."
If a woman is scared enough, confused enough or intimidated enough, she'll consent to a great many things. Coercion of sex is rape, plain and simple, even more so when you use intoxicants to break down a person's judgment and will. You don't need a weapon, you don't need to tie her up or hold her down. The simple act of putting her in a position where she believes she has no choice IS RAPE.
Best way to avoid problems in this area: Refrain from trying to have sex with drunken strangers. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:36:35 PM |
If you feel youre in a position of danger, you're going to do what he says...willfully.
Yeah, but a woman needs to take responsibility for not putting herself in that position to begin with. Accepting drink after drink from a man who you already had to tell you didn't want to have sex with is NOT a responsible decision. Did she deserve to be raped? NO! Could she have prevented the rape by making responsible decisions from the start? Yes. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/6/2008 10:46:48 PM | Everything stated there points to 1) diminished capacity, 2) refusal of advances, 3) attempts to disengage from the situation. If there is even one witness who will say that she was blitzed and that he was Octopus Man, the case is a a very good one.
I find it truly disturbing the number of men who voice an opinion on this thread that if a woman "goes along with it" that it can't possibly be rape. I suspect most of it is because trolling for hot drunk chick is a favorite sport, not because of any righteous belief in "personal responsibility."
If a woman is scared enough, confused enough or intimidated enough, she'll consent to a great many things. Coercion of sex is rape, plain and simple, even more so when you use intoxicants to break down a person's judgment and will. You don't need a weapon, you don't need to tie her up or hold her down. The simple act of putting her in a position where she believes she has no choice IS RAPE.
Best way to avoid problems in this area: Refrain from trying to have sex with drunken strangers.
NOLA, maybe she should just get a Lawyer involved then and be done with it if you're that confident of the outcome. Soon as this case gets laughed outta court, fill us in, k?
She coulda left - didn't.
She coulda refused the drinks - didn't.
There was no bondage or being held against her will, and no rubber hose to ply her with liquor. She made a series of poor choices and now has remorse and a medical condition as a result. Poor choices don't constitute rape.
Any defence attorney would rip this case to shreds in 5 minutes or less with her own written words.
I still say no Lawyer worth a damn would touch it.
It sounds like you are the type of woman that puts an innocent man in jail because you regretted it the next day and cry rape.
Well said Rusty.
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:14:12 AM |
If a woman is scared enough, confused enough or intimidated enough, she'll consent to a great many things.
But doesn't that statement in itself prove what many of us in here are saying.
she'll consent to a great many things.
As an adult, not being able to stand up for yourself is not a defense.
And for the record, having this position on the matter does not automatically make me or any other man in here someone who pursues drunk women in bars to take advantage of them. It simply means we disagree with you.  | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:26:56 AM |
that's VERY good advice, but do you know how many men hook up with women just BECAUSE they've had alcohol? In fact, they're all too WILLING to buy her drinks and get her drunk for the express purpose of trying to get her to lose whatever inhibitions she may have.
Sure we all know there are people out there with this in mind. But lowering someone's inhibitions is not brainwashing them or drugging them or forcing them or breaking the law.
Its offering them something , they choose to accept, and make dumb decisions because of the prior, also dumb, decision. The fact is they are still making a decision and is the root of this issue.
You argue while even though she has made a decision she is not responsible for her own decisions. Then you could say well she didn't have a choice, he made it for her. no he didn't . That is clear.
It is , put simply.....lowering their inhibitions. Does it make it morally right? Personally for me, no. I find drunk anyone unattractive especially a drunk women , classy ladies only please. =) | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:54:31 AM | Screw the legalities and political debates .
I say this ***hole STILL DESERVES A GOOD OLE DOWN HOME OLE FASHION COUNTRY SHIT KICKING TILL HIS EARS BLEED.
with the stern warning that if you EVER go near this woman again it will be worse .
so she didnt have the fortitude or the faculties to stop what was happening .
she said NO numourouse times. DONE. END ____OF _____STOREY | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 5:29:53 AM | | i don't care how much you've had to drink, how much he sweet talks, or even if you can't argue anymore and just go with it, if you said no JUST once and he ignores you? I's rape. A real man would hear the word no, give you a ride home, and make sure you were safe with no hard feelings, and wuld call you the next day just to make sure you were ok. NO MEANS NO...don't forget that ladies.....and guys, don't forget that either | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 5:38:34 AM | | as a woman who was just recently in this type of situation....when the ****er told me he was going to **** me whether i lked it or not...i told him ok lets get it on.....because i know rape is about power and control and i figured if i acted like it was no big deal he wouldn't pursue....fortunately i was right. Once he thought i was into the act he lost interest. however, if he'd have chosen to rape me anyway? I didn't ask for it, i was attempting to protect myself. If he had done what he set out to do it still would have been rape in spite of me telling him to lets get it on....I had already told him no repeatedly, and NO MEANS NO | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 7:27:47 AM | If you get into a car and drive while intoxicated, it's your fault. If you consent to sex with someone while intoxicated, it's their fault. Makes perfect sense to me.  | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 8:38:32 AM |
mishy71: "as a woman who was just recently in this type of situation....when the ****er told me he was going to **** me whether i lked it or not..."
I really wish you girls would tell your guy friends the name and location of this jerk. I'm sure they can pursuade him to think twice the next time. Even if you wanted to tell the police they could open up a file on him and get his photo on record. It then would be available for searches by rape victims in the future. Don't let this scumbag get off quietly. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 11:29:24 AM | I wouldn't quite use the word rape, however yes you were taken advantage of. I agree with the posters who have suggested you talk to a legal representative to get a more accurate assessment of the legal aspects of the situation and not my or anyone else here's word.
We all have the responsibility to protect ourselves from predators. That does NOT make it ok for predatory people to prey on vulnerable people. In my opinion they are two different issues. On your part you need to be VERY CAREFUL when out drinking. Also, change jobs, immediately. What is your companies dating policy? Many places ban sex/relationships between employees and bosses.
In any case, don't interact with a guy like that again and don't go drinking with a guy alone. Even if it's your boss and you feel pressure to comply because of the boss thing. Quit the freaking job if you have a boss that won't understand your refusal to go drinking with him. Another piece of female advice. Don't drink with guys.
Period. :)
That doesn't make it ok for someone to take advantage of you if you get tipsy and let your guard down, it just makes it very likely to happen. And that's bad! So don't let it happen!
It IS to me like walking down a dark alley in a bad part of town. Is it your fault if you get beat up? NO! But is it more likely to happen? YES!
So be careful! | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:04:51 PM | Yes! on all counts!
The oxford english dictionary defines rape as
• verb 1 (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will.
Using an underhanded Advantage such as alcohol or drugs, to render the victim unable to adequately verbalise their will to elicit sexual activity is unforgivable.
At best it is a criminal abuse of trust.
Minbari1 | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/7/2008 12:11:38 PM | If you did not want to sleep with this guy and he still forced himself upon you IT IS RAPE!GO TO THE COPS!I tell my sons NO MEANS NO! I total resent women who play the no means yes game. It gets ladies like you in trouble all the time. And makes men think they can do whatever they want. if you are stillunsure, visit your local rape crisis center.they will help you out. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/8/2008 6:02:10 PM | There is an old thread with similar scenarios and other examples that came to light during the discussion of modification of the law regarding rape and consent.
The reason was the binge drinking habit of British women that is already a social problem, the proposition was to considered a drunk woman as unable to consent to sex, the argument was to make easier rape convictions (considered low) compared to allegations (considered high).
The center core of the prosecution and the defense for all arguments about rape is to prove criminal intent and lack of consent.
Taking advantage of you, as in drunkness stage, it might be regarded as the criminal intent.
If you never were forced to drink, nor unconcious, then it can't be proved the lack of consent.
The law didn't pass.
For implications, to legislate that a drunk woman is unable to consent to sex means than any man having sex with any woman, regardless circumstances, at any moment she is above the legal limit, is by the statute considered a rapist. No exceptions.
It's interesting to note that women's groups backed up that idea.
For extentions, if a woman is legally impaired to consent to sex in all circumstances, then her free will to decide is restricted.
It's interesting to note that same women's group backed off from that idea.
OP: just your comments 'about no way being sober' and 'regretting next mornig' would be a reason for any lawyer to tell you "you can't be on the stand".
The case will come down to accountability by your choices as Duke Lacrosse case comes down to mind.
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/8/2008 6:42:08 PM |
Regretting it heavily and "just going with it" does not constitute rape. Sexual assault is when one of the parties does not consent to the intercourse or sexual penetration.
This says it all right here. She openly admitted to consenting. This thread could actually be used to acquit the guy if it ever went to court. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/8/2008 11:43:32 PM | Sorry sister but you will get no pity from me. Unfortunately it is women like you that make it difficult for other women that say no to be taken seriously. IT DEFINITELY WAS NOT RAPE!! You stated earlier in your bulletin that you had absolutely no desire to sleep with this man, then why did you stay, why even have the first drink. Surely this is not your first rodeo..so why even drink if you know it lowers your inhibitions and standards.
I wont apologize for being hard on you, It is because of women like you that men think that "No really means yes".
Alcohol is no excuse for stupidity. You had a clear head before you began drinking, you should have left...plain and simple..then if he refused to let you leave and forced you to have sex...then you would be well justified to call it rape. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:36:21 AM |
Alcohol is no excuse for stupidity. You had a clear head before you began drinking, you should have left...plain and simple..then if he refused to let you leave and forced you to have sex...then you would be well justified to call it rape.
The problem is that she felt intimidated by him. She stated that in her originally post. While I agree that she made some bad choices, those bad choices do not negate her right to be protected from a crime.
I presented this case to a friend of mine who is an attorney, and she wholeheartedly agreed that legally this is rape! | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:51:16 AM | The guy was so intimidating that she felt comfortable enough to have a "friendly chat over a drink or two" with him.
Are we ever going to hold anybody responsible for anything? Seriously. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 8:59:54 AM | | I admit that I didn't read all the other posts on here. After you said, " I just went with it" that defines that No it isn't rape! You made the choice to go with it, you made the choices to drink until hammered. You made the choice in the beginning to go out with someone that, in your own words, you never would have sober....Take a break, learn from this experience, don't repeat it, and you will learn something valuable about yourself..... | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 9:04:48 AM | | I agree Raphael. Accountability is hard to find. I hold myself accountable, with all my good and bad choices, and I have held others accountable (with love). | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:01:08 AM | This case screams rape to me for several reasons:
- first no is always no, this man refused to hear her or respect her and continued to pursue her with relentless, predatory, and increasingly scary intensity; i read it's her fault for not leaving - that's bullshit - some people are raised to be polite, some people are more submissive and easily intimidated by others, some people are born with less common sense, some people are timid, passive, mousy, etc - no matter - she could have been an aggressive kickboxing super****, the fact remains she stayed and it's not her fault
-the first drink bothers me - why was she so affected? was she drugged? was she drugged and even today, doesn't even realize that she has been drugged and is questioning where the fault lies in this scenario? she admitted to drinking, but four drinks doesn't seem like a lot to me. even if she was strictly drunk, this is a woman who stated she does not believe in casual sex, and she made the rapist aware of this right from the start. alcohol and drugs are WEAPONS. and don't forget, so is manipulation, coercion, using gender/size to intimidate, etc. most importantly, alcohol is the NUMBER ONE DATE RAPE DRUG used by rapists to lower the inhibitions of their intended target and reduce resistance.
-the traits listed of this man are consistent with sociopathy/psychopathy - thinking that violating the rights of others is okay, controlling, manipulative, in a position of power...go look up other traits of a socopath - impulsivity, inappropriate sexual aggressiveness, etc (not saying all rapists are psychopaths, but go look at stats and tell me there are no psychopathic rapists)
Victim blaming disgusts me. This woman has already been traumatized. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:12:39 AM | oh yeah: you people have to lose the attitude that rape is a brutal rapist lurking in the bushes looking to beat up up, rape you, and kill you. those are three separate issues. rape is about power and control, and about humiliating the victim.
your friendly neighbourhood rapist could be a fine, upstanding citizen; a good man or woman in your community that has some ****ed up ideas about stuff, made a poor impulsive choice with or without intoxicants, misread the signals he/she was getting from the target, or just plain didn't realize that feeding a girl drinks at the bar/picking up drunk tail and screwing them is a VIOLATION OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND A CRIME. whatever the reasons, there are no "takebacks" if it happens. when the damage is done, the damage is done. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:15:01 AM | Sorry guys, but perhaps this thread should be a lesson for you....having sex with an intoxicated woman IS SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Fair? In most cases...NO, but it's the law, like it or not. A woman can not give consent for sex if she is intoxicated...period.
No, in this case, it was not rape...she was not forced into having sex....but it was sexual assault.
That said, yes, the OP was stupid...very stupid. Yes, she got herself into this situation and did not, even though she had many opportunities to do so, get herself out of the situation before things got out of hand. It sounds like she went to his house or hotel room, since having sex outside the bathroom in a bar would be rather difficult to do. Lesson...do NOT accept an invitation to go to a guys house alone if you are not interested in him. Do NOT accept any alcohol in said situation....ever. As soon as sexual references are made or anything else that makes you feel uncomfortable...leave. Simply put....her choices were asinine and she put herself into a dangerous situation.
Stupidity however does not mean that anyone 'deserves' to be assaulted. And to the people who have stated that it had anything to do with how she acted or how she was dressed...grow the he11 up !!!!!! It doesn't matter how a woman is dressed....if she says NO....you can't have sex with her...period. Getting her drunk may well get you laid...but it could also get you arrested...like it or not.
99% of the time having sex with a drunk girl will result in nothing more than sex with a drunk girl...but guys have to be aware of the law. The law states that one can not give legal consent if they are intoxicated. | |
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| is it rape if...
Posted: 9/9/2008 10:23:28 AM | | Hum, if you Boss gave you herpes, You can take him to court! Michael Vick gave a girl herpes and she took him to court for damages. | |
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