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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/11/2008 8:16:09 PM | To wit on PF's earlier points .....
" The electric motors have only about a dozen moving parts compared to a combustion engine having 1,000's. Wouldn't that eliminate oil changes, tune ups and all that other crap? Then again it will cost several thousands every 100,000 miles or so to replace the batteries. "
Less parts doesn't mean lower cost overall. Many of these motors have limitations on the environment you can use them in not to mention that these components also have unforseen failures. Not to mention that being a new technology there will be fewer people that are properly, or by attrition, able to repair these vehicles. Meaning that when you do find someone to work on them the price will often be higher than normal due to supply and demand.
" At the current fuel cost that would be $16,000 in fuel to drive 100,000 and $8,750 in tune-ups. Totaling $24,750 to run your car 100,000 miles compared to an electric car at $6,000. "
So while you are adding most of the costs in here, you are omitting the costs of the electricity to charge the batteries every night. Not to mention if you are out and the battery runs low then you have to stop and plug in your vehicle .... they both take specialized plugs for this to happen in a speedy manner. Do you think people wont charge for this service the same as when you put gas in your tank at the gas station?
" In the next 5 years I would guess that Fisker and Tesla will both have cars that are in the average consumers price range. "
Even at the lower costs its proven many times over that major changes in lifestyle are not easily adapted by the mass population. It would mean no more simply deciding at the last minute to go travel across the state. You would have to plan the distance, find some place to recharge the car after a certain point and then to boot that where you did stay would have to have the proper utilities set up as well. The best average time either manufacture was talking was to charge the batteries in 3.5 hours you needed a 220 volt connection. Even though it also had a 110 adaptor for the vehicle, it would take the recharge time to 7 hours in the simplest form of equation. How many people do you know are going to willingly take a 3.5-7 hour break so there vehicle can make the rest of the trip or to the next waypoint? Also when they are making changes to lower the price of the vehicle what are they changing? Battery capacity- directly effecting the range of travel- or the quality of the materials in the entire vehicle? Where do you stop trimming corners to lower the cost so that more people can afford to get the vehicle?
This is why the hydrogen project is taking hold as it has, its a bit more feasible and has better range, not to mention that recharge stations resemble the traditional gas stations. But it has its hurdles to overcome yet that are more numerous than I care to go into at this fine hour. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/12/2008 4:11:09 AM | The current situation will only become worse. Imagine when workers earning the minimum wage are using most of their income just to get to work?
Imagine what will happen to the retail, restautrant and entertainment sector when people stop spending because the money is going into the gas tank?
Imagine the rapid rise in unempolyment as the economy collapses ?
Imagine what happens when shortages of goods in the market place as a result of transportation costs and other shortages turns into run away inflation?
Now imagine how the electric car is a part of the solution. Not all of the answer, but part of the solution.
We are just beginning to see the breaking point. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/12/2008 6:36:39 AM | Less parts doesn't mean lower cost overall. Many of these motors have limitations on the environment you can use them in not to mention that these components also have unforseen failures. Not to mention that being a new technology there will be fewer people that are properly, or by attrition, able to repair these vehicles. Meaning that when you do find someone to work on them the price will often be higher than normal due to supply and demand.
Understand the batteries themselves will cost an astronomical figure, plus will likel;y be a nonstandard part propriotary to a certain car.... unlike pretty much standardized car batteries. ... if you can imagine I proportional to what you would pay for a new cell phone battery (I don't have one of these but I know likely you would be better off scrapping the phone for the cost).
So I'd have a 10 year old (likely rusted out) car, the battery would likely cost more than the market value of the car itself. Right now not many mechanics are willing to work on the specialized hybrid components of the cars now, so dealer & $$$$$$$!
Economical for those who can afford this technology, & for those who still drive a lot, but not for everyone.
The current situation will only become worse. Imagine when workers earning the minimum wage are using most of their income just to get to work?
Imagine what will happen to the retail, restautrant and entertainment sector when people stop spending because the money is going into the gas tank?
Imagine the rapid rise in unempolyment as the economy collapses ?
Imagine what happens when shortages of goods in the market place as a result of transportation costs and other shortages turns into run away inflation?
By George, now wasn't raising fuel prices a surefire way to 'stimulate' the economy?
Well it's stimulating someones economy. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/12/2008 9:25:42 AM |
" At the current fuel cost that would be $16,000 in fuel to drive 100,000 and $8,750 in tune-ups. Totaling $24,750 to run your car 100,000 miles compared to an electric car at $6,000. "
So while you are adding most of the costs in here, you are omitting the costs of the electricity to charge the batteries every night. Not to mention if you are out and the battery runs low then you have to stop and plug in your vehicle .... they both take specialized plugs for this to happen in a speedy manner. Do you think people wont charge for this service the same as when you put gas in your tank at the gas station?
True I did miss that in my numbers, however I included in the price the solar panel roof. Otherwise it's about 2 cents per mile to charge. Both cars plug in to a standard 110-120 outlet. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/12/2008 1:54:13 PM |
True I did miss that in my numbers, however I included in the price the solar panel roof. Otherwise it's about 2 cents per mile to charge. Both cars plug in to a standard 110-120 outlet.
Wonder if this is why (With PUCO's Blessing) the power companies are doing away with 'All Electric' rate discounts & 'Winter Rates' The shape of things to come. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/14/2008 7:41:17 PM | I know we're already cutting way down on extra driving and outings. Staying home most of the time and if we do go out its to the dollar theater or something similiar.
Carpooling is another great alternative. My company has setup a bulletin board for employees to say where they live and what hours they work. They can then find people close to them with siniliar schedules. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/15/2008 2:45:53 PM | | We will have to become creative and flexible to overcome the high prices of gas and everything effected by gas. Perhaps a message to send to oil companies is buying gas at the gas stations and nothing more. Cut off all purchases of the pop, newspapers and anything else we buy at the local BP or whereever. We need to send a message to the oil companies that is loud and clear as our elected( bought ) officals will not act on our behalf. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/18/2008 7:22:20 AM | Well as we were out riding yesterday we found stations were closed or out of premium gas because they just can't afford to fill their tanks. The smaller mom/pop, independent companies can't stay in business with these increases.
We may start finding that there could be shortages and no matter what you are driving there won't be gas to put in the tanks. | |
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tmvg76
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Joined: 5/16/2008
Msg: 35 | |
| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 5:19:38 PM | | Someone on our biker site Diesel, suggested not buying gas from EXXON or MOBILE...start out with these 2 large companies and just maybe they will lower their prices and the rest will follow...also only buy from Sunoco and BP....I haven;t checked into it yet but there are several more stations that the gas comes from the U.S. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:13:28 PM | Sunoco is usually what I get....
I'm actually planning on getting a horse this weekend so I'll have that as my back up! Lots of hay around here so I can fuel it! hahaha | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:16:57 PM | Ok as far as fuel prices for my p/u ive found that if i run 70mph i get 16.5 and if i run 60 i get 20.5 guess whos foot got lighter. I have tips for getting better mpg.
1) Take off slower
2) brake early and try to pace the traffic lights well
3) use cruise as much as you can.
4) lower you highway speed
5) take out any extra weight not needed. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:20:43 PM | Boycotting gas stations is chasing the flys on the tail of the horse. The oil companies do not set the policies in the countries that control the oil supply. It is the countires that control the oil supply that detremine what the price will be. This is why President Bush wanted the Saudi's to increase the level of oil production to cut prices. Saudi Arabia a memeber of OPEC declined to increase the oil production. There you have it .
In addition the issue is if you don't buy from one major oil company you will have to buy from another. Boycotting alone wil not decrease the way we waste oil products in the United States. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:31:18 PM |
Saudi Arabia a memeber of OPEC declined to increase the oil production. There you have it .
If thats the case why are we coddling & defending them with our military at no cost?
In addition the issue is if you don't buy from one major oil company you will have to buy from another. Boycotting alone wil not decrease the way we waste oil products in the United States.
Any way the major oil companies will use this as a excuse to further cut production, & leading to more increases, either way they've got you by the balls.
I haven't seen a Mobil or Exxon station around here anyhow. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:34:30 PM | 2) brake early and try to pace the traffic lights well
Noticed that I've sat idly at traffic lights here at non peak hours when little or no traffic is out... colplete with the Local PD hiding looking for light jumpers.
Ohio is one of the worst states for traffic control. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:37:26 PM | | I know your right just thought i would add some pointers i have the best mpg out of a fleet of 180 trucks. and its only 7.24 mpg | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:44:11 PM | | Are there numbers that back the statement about Ohio being the worse for enforcing traffic laws? Is this fact? Is this opinion? Is this myth? For that matter if left to our own devices would we run each other off the road every chance we got? Think of the loved ones that are safe from drunks because the over aggressive law is keeping us safe from those individuals that care not for our safety. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:05:51 AM | Are there numbers that back the statement about Ohio being the worse for enforcing traffic laws? Is this fact?
Re read the post please, but since you brought it up, I Actually had a warrant issued on me for no front plate, mind you that it can be rusty, unreadable or have a 'get out of jail free' badge covering half of it, & it's 'OK'!
Go figure?
& yes I read it recently, Ohio was amongst the worst. Florida, Georgia & California had the smothest flowing traffic considering.
Wanna know who has the worst roads in the country too?
Think of the loved ones that are safe from drunks because the over aggressive law is keeping us safe from those individuals that care not for our safety
Really? This same 'aggressive' force refused to come out when I reported teens / young adults sitting on the street in their cars drinking & then smashing bottles. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:06:15 PM | Ohio cops are horrid. They hide around where I work (which employs 25,000 people or so) at the start and the end of our shifts. It annoys me because I think there are better things they can be doing rather than trying to get a buck out of someone trying to get home before their kids get off the bus. Okay, so I guess you've gotten all the thugs off the streets then since you are just hiding around here. Anyway back to the subject...just when you think it can't get any worse as far as gas prices, it's time to start mowing. It takes about the same amount to fill up my mower as it does to fill up the CRV. I'm thinking of investing in goats. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/24/2008 3:10:06 PM | | What better things can cops do? Think of the tens of thousands of Americans that die in car accidents every year. The cops as you call them are keeping us safe from people that have no regard for the safety of others. The day people think before speeding then the cops won't be needed. Ever consider how a person running late to work places many, perhaps your loved ones in harms way only to avoid arriving to work late. Too bad for those motorists involved in deadly accidents that never arrive. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/27/2008 4:07:34 PM |
What better things can cops do? Think of the tens of thousands of Americans that die in car accidents every year. The cops as you call them are keeping us safe from people that have no regard for the safety of others. The day people think before speeding then the cops won't be needed.
Ever notice tha a cop is little deterent in rush hour traffic when everyone is going 70 plus bumper to bumber? I don't like it either but setting up useless traps to get someone going 5-10 over in remote areas with little traffic is just a revenue booster, sorry.
I hope those kids I called on for drinking didn't kill anyone that night. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/27/2008 4:12:46 PM | Between the motorcycle and the Prius, we are getting somewhere around 46 mpg. We have cut out all non essential trips and do things so that we can make one trip and get everything done. Our breaking point was about$3.25 a gallon and we went car shopping for something better on gas.
The motorcycle is great, but you can't carry groceries on it and sometimes weatherwise it just isn't practical. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:11:21 PM | | Motorcycle is great. For my work purposes a high milage scooter will be the ticket. It will cut my gas consumption by alot. There are ways to make the situation work if we allow ourselves to try different solutions. | |
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/27/2008 8:36:29 PM |
The electric motors have only about a dozen moving parts compared to a combustion engine having 1,000's. Wouldn't that eliminate oil changes, tune ups and all that other crap? Then again it will cost several thousands every 100,000 miles or so to replace the batteries.
THOUSANDS of parts in a combustion engine? Seriously? Have you ever taken apart an engine? Probably not...the kind of person that would pay A HUNDRED GRAND for an electric car...oi.
At the current fuel cost that would be $16,000 in fuel to drive 100,000 and $8,750 in tune-ups. Totaling $24,750 to run your car 100,000 miles compared to an electric car at $6,000.
Since when do tuneups cost $8,750? WTF kind of car do YOU drive? You're talking about paying a HUNDRED GRAND for an electric car, and then you talk about what makes financial sense? Wow.
Let's compare my 2002 Jeep Liberty with your $100,000 Wunderkar.
My Jeep (lifted, bigger tires, yadda yadda) gets 14 mpg city/20-22 hwy if I baby it.
Every 5,000 miles, oil change. For normal people, that's $30.
Every 50,000 miles, it gets spark plugs, front/rear differential fluid changes, and a transfer case fluid change. Roughly $400 (high end price) for service/supplies
100,000/14=7,142 and some change. mulitply that by 4, that's $28,000. Spread out over a decade or so (what most cars take to accumulate 100,000 miles...mine take about 5) and i'ts REALLY not that unreasonable.
So, we have a $22,000 vehicle that after 100,000 miles will cost you a total of $51,400.
That was the price new. I bought used, didn't pay that much. Plus, it will do LOTS more than that overpriced slot car. Like NOT run up my power bill...and tow a 5,000 pound trailer...deal easily with Michigan/northern Ohio winters (although it doesn't have to)
The electric car is not a popular idea. It's something for people who think they're doing right by the world and have too much money to burn.
For $100,000 you could buy a 5 year old Viper and a late-model used VW TDI Jetta that gets 50 mpg, and a beat up old Toyota pickup to play in the mud and tow trailers and do...well...truck stuff. And, all three would probably cost less to insure than said electric nobody-mobile that will have zero parts support in 5 years.
Or buy a house....especially with the soft market.
Face it, an electric car does NOT make sense, and does not reduce our dependency on fossil fuels, and you will never convince the buying public that it DOES make sense. The GM EV1 (NOT called the "Impact" like all you that like to thump the "Who killed the electric car" bible think) proved that.
OOPS, forgot something! Your super high performance snazzy low profile tires are going to cost you about $400 EACH, and probably last around 25-30k miles. My Jeep can get 40,000 miles out of a set of $130 each mud tires (which kill gas mileage...a street tire would raise my fuel economy about 2 mpg-and they'd last longer)
This is a VERY extreme example of a VERY fuel-inefficient vehicle. Even if gas hits $6/gallon and you drive 12,000 miles a year in a 30 mpg car, you come out ahead.
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| Whats your breaking point?
Posted: 5/28/2008 3:45:04 AM | The present high cost of an electric car is a good point. Let us not forget that the first cars manufactured, including the combustion engine vehicles were so exspensive that only the very rich could buy the cars. In time the price dropped due to innovations by FORD and others. In time the cost of an electric car will drop as well. In addition as power companiers look to other clean sources of generating power the cost of driving an electric car will drop as well. The future of the electric car is as bright as the engineers willing to solve the problems. The future of gas hogs is past us.
As for gas hitting 6 dollars a gallon? Try 8 dollars a gallon by next year? | |
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