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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/12/2008 3:50:14 PM | Non-Refundable ^^^^^^^
Thank you. Glad to see there is someone else that takes on board the fact that white collar crime costs us far more. It really gets my goat that it is continually ignored.
OT
Have just had a read about the story (yes, I admit it was in News of the Screws). The marriage is actually more like a formal betrothal. No sex is involved (and won't be til the bride is 18 apparently), she continues to live at home with the rest of her family. The marriage is obviously not legal as it was conducted by a 'community leader,' unlikely to be licenced even if the bride and groom were old enough to marry. The bride herself said they will marry properly at 18.
So, no crime there then. Arranged marriages are common in many other cultures (actually, my mum tells me that when I was little and we lived in Cyprus, the local copper was trying to talk my dad into betrothing me to his son. We were both about 5).
As long as the arranged marriage is agreed by the parties involved (and the pair in question appear to), what can we say. Is our way of doing it any better?
As to the rest of the story, all I can say is I'm glad they don't live next door to me, they appear to be delightful neighbours! | |
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cargy
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Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 28 | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/12/2008 11:31:03 PM |
It's not a crime though if the tax system lets you do it! There are plenty of loopholes. It's just called being clever.
Tax avoidance is a crime... which is what I am talking about. Not loopholes. 'Cooking the books' and not declaring how much you earn is a crime.
And believe me if you were working hard and earning that sort of money only to be faced with paying 40%, plus NI contributions as well, of it back to the government just so some workshy doley scumbag could get paid for nothing. You would try and avoid it all too.
Im not talking about whether it is right or wrong to avoid paying tax... Im stating that white collar crime costs us much much more as a taxpayer than benefit fraud does.
You are ( rightly) complaing about paying a big amount of tax.... well a bigger proportion of that tax is pain because others don't, not because people claim falsely.
Oh and according to the Daily Mail, I am a "workshy doley scumbag"  After all... the Daily Mail is the font of all knowledge.
have paid a small fortune into the system in my time. Now I'm sick and need some help and support I am getting f**k all back from them! So when I'm better and earning again I will "bend" every tax law in the book to save a few quid!
Again Im not talking about the morals of it... nor am I talking about exploiting loopholes. I am talking about billion pound crime that goes on every day...unmentioned by the media.
Hula Moo
{quote]Thank you. Glad to see there is someone else that takes on board the fact that white collar crime costs us far more. It really gets my goat that it is continually ignored.
Cheers!!! You are the only person ever to have said that!! It costs us way way more than benefit fraud/scroungers but people are not bothered by it because the media don't make the same meal of it. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 12:17:11 AM | Weather or not tax avoidance is a crime is debatable however if the government were to crack down on it and close every loophole people would simply move to another country. Take Lewis Hamilton for example, now a resident of Switzerland and saving a reported four million PA in tax, how can it be right that someone in his position is expected to hand over such a monumental amount of money every year into a system he will never ask or be in a position to require anything from?
Maybe if multi million pound tax payers were allowed to use 40% of income to benefit good causes or even build the odd hospital they'd think twice about sticking around but having it snatched away and used to fund illegal wars or support gippo's and their illiterate spawn? I don't blame them and if i was lucky enough to be in that position i'd do exactly the same. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 12:32:32 AM |
I think the OP has mislead people who have contributed to this thread.
for a start the daily mail article says nothing about benefits.
You missed this bit.
Neighbours say the family, who live on benefits and do not pay rent | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 12:44:59 AM |
It's not a crime though if the tax system lets you do it! There are plenty of loopholes. It's just called being clever.
There's a big difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, one is legal the other, most definitely not
And believe me if you were working hard and earning that sort of money only to be faced with paying 40%, plus NI contributions as well, of it back to the government just so some workshy doley scumbag could get paid for nothing. You would try and avoid it all too.
No, they do it to line their pockets. Also, my principles lead me to believe that that who can have a social responsibility to those that can't. Yes, some people fiddle the system, like the delightful lady in the OP. But, as NR pointed out the 'workshy doley scumbag' costs us a lot less on the whole. The difference between what she would get as a worker and what she gets doing nothing isn't that much. It also pisses me off that someone who has had a few hundred quid in fraudulent benefits will be hounded down and quite possibly imprisoned for it, but businesses who fiddle that amount on a daily basis get maybe a little slap on the wrist.
Also, don't assume you are something better just because you pay 40% tax. You don't know the circumstances of others, so get down off that high horse.
I have paid a small fortune into the system in my time. Now I'm sick and need some help and support I am getting f**k all back from them!
Yep, that would be the same f*ck all that everybody gets. And some people have to live on that for some time. Did you not use your hard-earned to prepare for the future? Not everybody has that option.
So when I'm better and earning again I will "bend" every tax law in the book to save a few quid!
Good luck with that. I trust I won't be seeing you post about the state of the country in the near future.
Don't worry, taxes for high earners will be going down once the Tories get back in. Then we can watch the news and see schools with no books, hospitals with wards lying unused, watch the 'jobs lost' counter every Friday night; all those joyful things we used to enjoy under the Tories.
My ex used to be the long arm of the taxman, he did many searches and said it was amazing the number of times Mr fiddler had a prominent pic of him and Thatcher/Major on the wall. Says it all imo. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 1:00:37 AM |
No, they do it to line their pockets. Also, my principles lead me to believe that that who can have a social responsibility to those that can't. Yes, some people fiddle the system, like the delightful lady in the OP. But, as NR pointed out the 'workshy doley scumbag' costs us a lot less on the whole. The difference between what she would get as a worker and what she gets doing nothing isn't that much. It also pisses me off that someone who has had a few hundred quid in fraudulent benefits will be hounded down and quite possibly imprisoned for it, but businesses who fiddle that amount on a daily basis get maybe a little slap on the wrist.
Yup. People also forget that some of the 'workshy doley scumbag' have also previously ben hardworking people. The Daily Mail loves me...because not only am I a single parent whose income is suppoted by benefits ( yes I do work, but I am also a 'freeloading student'. So not only am I a scrounger I am also lazy by putting myself through 4 yrs of Uni  Oh and dont forget all my kids will inevitably end up as lazy scroungers and criminals too!!
Whereas some fat cat business man evading paying his tax for years and years is quite ok.
My original point, as you say isn't whether not paying tax is right....its just that tax evasion costs us more, that *us* the taxpayers, that benefits do.
But its never mentioned because of the 'oh its ok to avoid paying tax' mindset. I wonder if people actually knew what the cost was to them personally whether they would still feel the same. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 1:58:51 AM | Ladies I'm not going to start a row with you on here. I'd surely get banned, and not going to lose a nice lifeline to the outside world because you seem to have taken it upon yourselves to have a go at me.
No, they do it to line their pockets. Also, my principles lead me to believe that that who can have a social responsibility to those that can't. Yes, some people fiddle the system, like the delightful lady in the OP. But, as NR pointed out the 'workshy doley scumbag' costs us a lot less on the whole. The difference between what she would get as a worker and what she gets doing nothing isn't that much. It also pisses me off that someone who has had a few hundred quid in fraudulent benefits will be hounded down and quite possibly imprisoned for it, but businesses who fiddle that amount on a daily basis get maybe a little slap on the wrist.
Also, don't assume you are something better just because you pay 40% tax. You don't know the circumstances of others, so get down off that high horse.
Just for the record a "workshy doley scumbag" is someone who has never worked, has no intention of ever working, and wants to just bludge off the state to get by. By using the very word "workshy" I would have thought you could have worked that bit out. Someone who has previously been employed by that very reason can't be workshy can they!?!?!?!
I would need very a high horse as I'm 6ft 4, but sadly no I am not on one. I am no better than anyone else. The reason I was in the 40% bracket was because I spent years working my arse off to become one of the best in my chosen field. I then started a company which employs about 200 people in an area of very high unemployment, bringing much needed money into the town.
Yep, that would be the same f*ck all that everybody gets. And some people have to live on that for some time. Did you not use your hard-earned to prepare for the future? Not everybody has that option.
Not that it's any of your business, but yes I did plan very well. However, any plans like this are long term. When they get interrupted in mid flow then you are in trouble. And when they get illegally interrupted in mid flow and no one will do anything to help you, then you are "royally screwed" for want of a better term!
Good luck with that. I trust I won't be seeing you post about the state of the country in the near future.
Don't worry, taxes for high earners will be going down once the Tories get back in. Then we can watch the news and see schools with no books, hospitals with wards lying unused, watch the 'jobs lost' counter every Friday night; all those joyful things we used to enjoy under the Tories.
Comments like that about the Tories are so short sighted. The country is already in the state you claim, and remind me again how long the Labour party have been in power now?
I will always moan about the state of the country because it is crap and no political party we currenty have will ever fix it. They just want to stay in power as long as they can and milk all their expenses. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 2:13:52 AM | Ladies I'm not going to start a row with you on here. I'd surely get banned, and not going to lose a nice lifeline to the outside world because you seem to have taken it upon yourselves to have a go at me.
Graham, sweetie, I think you will find it was you who jumped in and ranted on about the tax you have had to pay and what you don't get back and that tax evasion is ok , in reference to my point regarding tax evasion costing us more than what benefits do.
If you don't like the POLITE answers I have given back to you in my reply, and see that as myself having a go at you, then I respectfully suggest you do not partake in the discourse.
Oh and I will just reiterate my original point that tax evasion costs us more, as taypayers ourselves, than the benefits system does. That was my original point Graham, not what you personaly have or havent paid out. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 2:18:49 AM | Since when has there been such a universal idea as a British value system? It's simply non-existant. You cannot say that every British person, or even near, believes in 75% of the same ideals.
People all hold their own values in life and should never follow a set of guidelines set out by an arbitary forum if it clashes with what they believe is right for their families and themsleves. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 2:18:50 AM |
Ladies I'm not going to start a row with you on here. I'd surely get banned, and not going to lose a nice lifeline to the outside world because you seem to have taken it upon yourselves to have a go at me. Graham, sweetie, I think you will find it was you who jumped in and ranted on about the tax you have had to pay and what you don't get back and that tax evasion is ok , in reference to my point regarding tax evasion costing us more than what benefits do. If you don't like the POLITE answers I have given back to you in my reply, and see that as myself having a go at you, then I respectfully suggest you do not partake in the discourse. Oh and I will just reiterate my original point that tax evasion costs us more, as taypayers ourselves, than the benefits system does. That was my original point Graham, not what you personaly have or havent paid out.
Ditto.
Although, perhaps I could have been more polite. My apologies if the way I framed my response caused offence. I do however, stand by my points. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 3:58:16 AM | That's cool ladies. Apologies accepted and duly returned from me as well 
These forums are all about having our own personal opinion. It's just that as simple text, it's difficult to pick up exactly peoples tone etc. So things can be read a various number of ways.
Look forward to seeing you both again on another thread soon   | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 4:12:39 AM | Did anyone else find themselves wondering if this family were driven out from wence they came for having such a god-awful attitude to the society around them? That mother sounds like the sort of B%*ch our mothers warned their sons to stay away from!
They aren't stupid, the girl will retain her virginity till after she's 16 to avoid prosecution and she'll at least be able to name the Daddy, which is more than can be said for some UK born women nowadays. In the eyes of the law until the marriage is consummated, as it wasn't offiicated at by a real UK registrar, it's just a family party.
Home education is legal, so these children aren't breaking the law, as I'm sure their parents will know more about the legalaties of it all than you or I. (Education Otherwise is the legitimate UK group to google for more info).
Sadly these people know how to play the system. However the one consolation is that they haven't conned the authorities as yet into giving them more than a 2 bed. I wouldn't fancy living crammed on top of one another like that.
Perhaps the council is hoping they'll move on, if life here isn't made too cushty? I can't imagine them getting on with the neighbours! | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 4:45:34 AM | Do you know I have respect for those that pay a higher tax bracket as obviously they are earning more as they have got themselves educated and worked hard throughout their lives. (Not those that had just had a windfall etc.) Especially if they have created jobs for others.
What an acheivement! Deffinatley deserves respect. Furthermore I'd be more inclined to value the opinion of such persons.
With regrads to the post:
People should have the right to bring up their children as they see fit, many different social groups have different ways of living, that should be respected as long as no one is harmed etc.
People have the right to belive in what ever they choose in this country, and personaly I think the actual values of most (not what they claim, what they do and say) in this country stink too.
Well you can't claim this group in one house of 14 people is taking council houses!
I can see where she is coming from, I didn't sign any peice of paper to confirm I'd abide by any laws, no one asked me my opinion or whether I would nor did anyone say that if I stayed here I'd have to!
Without knowing the full situation we shouldn't realy comment, nor is the News of the World gonna give us all the facts to base a true reflection of the situation, only what they think will sell and they are very good at it, as look at all the kerfuffle it has caused in here!
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 4:57:53 AM | Furthermore I'd be more inclined to value the opinion of such persons.
Im intrigued.... why is that???
Does the financial or class success of a person make their opinions more or less worthwhile??
EDIT-actually don't worry.. I've started a thread on it! | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:05:59 AM | The Daily Mail seems to love recruiting for the brainless wonders of the extreme right. It brings out the worst in people by highlighting stories like this and twisting facts, telling half truths etc. Yes they all do it but this bloody rag is the worst.
The results are clear, normally rational posters have bitten on here, giving one of our favorite right wingers the chance to tell them they are hypocrites etc. and he has a point to an extent.
Aren't all those rich millionaires that do the country out of even more money by evading tax with brilliant auditing worse? They steal more off you every month than people like this do every year, but the Mail won't highlight their friends that do this because it is easier to stir up the masses with crap like this. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:15:12 AM | Because he's bothered to get off his ass and do something worthwhile, plus improve the lives for others, surely it proves he has a good clue about what makes the world go round. As I already stated with different words. My post does kinda cover why but I shall continue if that wasn't enough for you.
I do feel that I would listen and take on board and probably favour someone's opinion that has made themselves over some one that was just born into money or just doing the daily grind like sheep with their eyes shut and being jelous of those who have made themselves (that also includes me at this point baa baa) Certainley over someone that hasn't ever worked because they can't be arsed.
There was a time in this country when people were embarrassed to take benefits, right or wrong. The tax payer should always be respected no matter the amount of tax paid.
Those that don't work as they are unfortunate due to circumstance, ill, etc is a different matter and for a different thread, along with your question. They however have the time to contemplate issues more thoroughly and perhaps the effects too. Giving a different angle and ways of thinking which are also essentialy benifical. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 5:38:20 AM | Quite funny reading all the posts regarding 'White Collar Crime'
Tax avoidance is legal and necessary. What the taxman does wrong is close loopholes which then (because they are brainless twits) opens another!!!
What would be the point of them putting the tax they avoid into the system? Where would it go? To all those who think cash should be given to them on a plate instead of getting their lazy butts and going to work?
Come on, they put enough into the system to not get done for evasion, is that not enough?
If you earnt say 500,000 per year, because you worked for it, would you really pay the whole 40% tax or would you hire a good accountant to reduce your tax bill?
I think everyone, no matter what you say, would try to avoid tax in these circumstance. Bearing in mind, you will have your own top private healthcare, great pension, unlikely to need benefits in the future, proably higher council tax due to bigger house in nicer area, more road tax due to bigger car etc etc etc
You forget, they still pay tax, enough to keep these losers like the OP in benefits.
White collar crime - pffft | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:01:39 AM | is tax credit not a benefit?
is child allowance not a benefit?
is reduced prescription charges not a benefit?
is seeing a GP and not paying for it not a benefit?
is cheap dental healthcare not a benefit?
is sickness 'benefit' not a benefit?
if you're unemployed - you're unemployed - doesn't make you lazy, a scrounger or a criminal - it makes you unfortunate.
however, tax "dodging" makes you a thief, cheat and a liar and the sentences for this are high, not because you are stealing from Her Majesty but because you are stealing from the nation, which makes these people enemies of us all. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:19:27 AM |
is tax credit not a benefit?
is child allowance not a benefit?
is reduced prescription charges not a benefit?
is seeing a GP and not paying for it not a benefit?
is cheap dental healthcare not a benefit?
is sickness 'benefit' not a benefit?
if you're unemployed - you're unemployed - doesn't make you lazy, a scrounger or a criminal - it makes you unfortunate.
however, tax "dodging" makes you a thief, cheat and a liar and the sentences for this are high, not because you are stealing from Her Majesty but because you are stealing from the nation, which makes these people enemies of us all.
Someone who earns enough to use tax avoidance schemes, would not claim tax credits, nhs dental health or use the NHS - certainly if they are in any normal state of mind.
Anyone need help with Tax avoidence, drop me a mail!
Tax avoidance is not a crime, Tax evasion is. 'White collar criminals' that are mentioned above, are avoiders and therefore clever, evasionists are the ones breaking the law.
As for unfortuante......... bah | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:29:08 AM | Tax avoidance is not a crime, Tax evasion is. 'White collar criminals' that are mentioned above, are avoiders and therefore clever, evasionists are the ones breaking the law.
Given that you are paid to help people avoid paying taxt Id say that makes it clear where your viewpoint is. You also support another of my theories...
Tax evasion is a crime, and costs us more to us as taxpayers than benefits system does.
If you can argue otherwise then please do. Or you can carry on trying to 'drum up business' | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 6:41:55 AM |
What the taxman does wrong is close loopholes which then (because they are brainless twits) opens another!!!
There will always be some smarty pants accountant looking for a loophole to exploit for their clients who can afford it. That's what they are paid for.
The difference between avoidance and evasion is a very fine line and one that is frequently crossed. As a former 'brainless twit' tax bod, one thing I always used to tell traders is that they should check with a fine toothed comb whatever their accontant told them because it isn't their accountant that would pay the price for crossing.
Still, I ask again, why is it so terrible the the woman in the OP is 'screwing money' out of the country, when it seems perfectly fine for avoiders and evaders to do it? The legality is not up for discussion, what she is doing is legal too. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/13/2008 7:16:29 AM | MissSelf, did you honestly believe that when TallGraham 'started a company which employs about 200 people in an area of very high unemployment, bringing much needed money into the town', he was just getting ' off his ass and do something worthwhile, plus improve the lives for others'?
Did you not think he was just making money for himself (which is perfectly ok and laudible) and the so-called 'improving others' lives' was just a by-product which he just wished to put emphasis on?
Gee.. were you borned yesterday?  | |
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