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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:57:10 AM |
I am also of the opinion that you may be slightly jealous of Tall Graham No, MissSelf, I am not jealous of TG at all. I have my own business as well & doing ok. I just choose not to broadcast how I help others less fortunate than myself. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:00:03 AM | I completely agree with Kobayashi, whats the need for the conversation, it in no way relates to the topic really...
Anyway back on topic, It to me seems as though this is just another sign of the country going to shit. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:11:46 AM | The need for conversation is where I and others get slated over my opinion/statements. Someone who calls me naive or borned yesterday when they have agreed to what I have just said is obviously patheticaly trying to boost their ego at mine and other posters expense by making them seem as accused.
That is not constuctive to the thread nor appealing. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:15:31 AM |
looks like the show's over
AH! Bollocks! I have missed the whole bloody show..
OP I agree with.. hang on.. i havent read the whole thread. I agree with the most gobby one over there.
 British values? What are they,please? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:11:55 PM | British values? What are they,please?
tea
queuing
fish and chips
being runner-up
being polite to peoples faces
b*tching about people behind their backs
apologising
fair play
cabbage
being better than the germans
kebabs
chinese restaurants
not being able to speak french
the archers
bobbies
the weather
talking about the weather
moaning
moaning about the weather
sinclair c5
jade goodey
helping the underdog
whinging about helping the underdog
coronation street
hating the government
going on about our wonderful past
ignoring the bad bits about our wonderful past
curly wurlys
and helping the less fortunate understand what british values are | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 6:40:05 PM | hmmm underlying british racism at it's finest. You enjoyed having the sun not set on your land still brag about it, but arent ****ing enough to rejevunate your population ie the problem with britains aging population, also you complain about immigrants but if it wasnt who would sell the bootleg dvd's keep the shops, brush the street and take the abuse you guys? hmmm i doubt it. Next person i hear complaing about the benefits system im gonna give a quick lesson as to why the current global trade system is desgined for most third world countries to stay in positions of eternal subordantion while guaranteing access and profits to cheap goods for most westerners, so what about those benefits? do you hear me complain when you enjoy our coffee bananas and other fruits of our labour while we see minimal profits?
Oh btw im glad they are immigrants in this country it could otherwise be quite the stuffy place, also yea round us up put us in a boat send us back safe just give us back a substantial potential of what was earned of us and ill be gone who needs all this rain in their life? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:47:37 PM | I haven't noticed any underlying racism in the thread.
Karlblanco... who is the "WE" you talk about? Do you run a struggling banana or coffee plantation in South America or Africa? Do you run a sweat shop in Thailand or China paying pennies a day to kids to provide these cheap goods? Please take into account that it is profit seeking companies that dictate that production be moved to cheap labour areas, not the end consumer balloting for it. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:18:23 PM |
Next person i hear complaing about the benefits system im gonna give a quick lesson as to why the current global trade system is desgined for most third world countries to stay in positions of eternal subordantion while guaranteing access and profits to cheap goods for most westerners, so what about those benefits? do you hear me complain when you enjoy our coffee bananas and other fruits of our labour while we see minimal profits?
Karl, I totally agree with you here that this is indeed what the west does to the third world. It's used to keep our lifestyle viable.
Having said that, isn't it up to these countries to stand up for themselves? Democaracy and trade were not given to the west, they were taken. If you want them badly, you should take them too. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:19:09 PM |
Next person i hear complaing about the benefits system im gonna give a quick lesson as to why the current global trade system is desgined for most third world countries to stay in positions of eternal subordantion while guaranteing access and profits to cheap goods for most westerners, so what about those benefits? do you hear me complain when you enjoy our coffee bananas and other fruits of our labour while we see minimal profits?
Karl, I totally agree with you here that this is indeed what the west does to the third world. It's used to keep our lifestyle viable.
Having said that, isn't it up to these countries to stand up for themselves? Democaracy and trade were not given to the west, they were taken. If you want them badly, you should take them too. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:02:08 AM | | Supply is determined by demand therefore you as a customer hold the ultimate power(in theory), so if people decided to boycott starbucks they would be forced to reconsider their trde pratices, as an educated customer one has to realize that the system doesnt work unless the goods are consumed ,so while you may not directly own a sweat shop the pair of nikes in your closet support the labour of said child, the goverment which you elect which allows for companies to conduct "unethical" buisness and still enter there local market also support this labour therefore what ballot are you not casting? some countries such as sweden have forced companies to review policies or face heavy fines, while the swede like to pride themselveson being a socialist model this self awarness is not magic it's simply understanding one's rol in the chain. As for "gypsies" and other benefit abusers this dicourse sounds quite similar to that used by Nazi's and supporters of the Eugenics movement, if that's not underlinning racism i dunno what is. The real question should have been how come in this modern day and age in a modern developing country that many people still have to endure such horrible living conditions but it quickly turned into an E-Hate fest, or maybe im just too pessimistic?? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:06:49 AM | | We would gladly take them soon as the g8 stop providind arms to evhery despotic leader that helps then settle their position of power, actually apllying things like WTO rulings etc etc, while some would advocate war that solution doesnt so viable to me. Best solution in my book the indian or chinesse approach attack from within. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:17:20 AM | Supply is determined by demand therefore you as a customer hold the ultimate power(in theory), so if people decided to boycott starbucks they would be forced to reconsider their trde pratices, as an educated customer one has to realize that the system doesnt work unless the goods are consumed ,so while you may not directly own a sweat shop the pair of nikes in your closet support the labour of said child, the goverment which you elect which allows for companies to conduct "unethical" buisness and still enter there local market also support this labour therefore what ballot are you not casting?
And what if I simply don't care? what will you do then?
Don't lobby me to get you out of a bad situation, get out of it yourself. Change your government to one which has effective ideas for increasing trade and reducing poverty, or adopt a different model. I am quite happy for anyone to be equal, but equality by it's very nature is not something which can be given. When given, it simply isn't equality, it's tolerance.
As for "gypsies" and other benefit abusers this dicourse sounds quite similar to that used by Nazi's and supporters of the Eugenics movement, if that's not underlinning racism i dunno what is.
Now hold on one minute.
I TOTALLY respect this woman's right to live as her culture dictates. I happen to think that there are different ways of living, BUT where this all falls down for me is that she SAYS she does not hold my values, but wishes to live in the house I provide with my taxes and buys her food with money I provide in my taxes.
If she were in some way supporting herself, growing her own food, living on land not used for anything, I would suppoirt her 100%. WHERE is the racism in this view?
She lives on handouts. THEN complains about it!
The real question should have been how come in this modern day and age in a modern developing country that many people still have to endure such horrible living conditions but it quickly turned into an E-Hate fest, or maybe im just too pessimistic??
No one in the uk has to endure horrible living conditions. There ARE rough council estates, but you'll find those living in them were put there because they do not live well in pleasant society. I know this because I was brought up on council estates. If you were uncivilised, you were moved to Moulscombe, the roughest estate. If you were just a bit rough, you lived on Whitehawk estate. If you were half decent and clean and tidy, you generally lived on Bevendean estate. Why should the people who wish to live decently put up with people who have zero manners.
These people CHOOSE where they end up in life.
Whilst I respect that you (by the sound of things) are a foreign student and have to pay your tuition (my ex works in this field so I do know it can be hard) UK residents are entitled to an education. Free until 18, and although paid for in higher education, it is still funded.
There aren't any excuses in this country.
EDIT
We would gladly take them soon as the g8 stop providind arms to evhery despotic leader that helps then settle their position of power, actually apllying things like WTO rulings etc etc, while some would advocate war that solution doesnt so viable to me.
Then don't vote for the government BUYING the weapons. If you don't live in a democracy, rise up and fight for what you beleive in. It's what everyone else has had to do at some point in their history. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 3:30:01 AM | Wow! While we are completely 'off topic', this thread has moved into a more interesting discussion. (Certainly much more interesting than the personal attacks launched against me!)
There is a lot of truth in what both zihuatanejomexico & karlblanco expounded. I come from Malaysia; had it not been for the price of oil, M'sia would not have been able to extricate herself out of the developing world group of countries as fast as it has. And, yes, M'sia has not followed the exact economic model left by the British.
Like karlblanco intimated, the established world economic order tends to favour the 'old western economies' - afterall, it is in their interest to maintain the 'rules' to ensure they are always in a more powerful economic trading position. Why else would the USA, etc. maintain such a strong & tight control on the WTO, World Bank, IMF, etc.? If the developed world really believes in fair trade, why are subsidised crops (like rice grown in the USA) allowed to compete against local farmers in Africa? Why is the EEC not doing anything to mitigate the price disadvantage suffered by the developing world sugar export when pitched against EEC subsidised sugar beet?
Whilst I accept that changes/development must come from within, the odds are stacked against the developing nations. (Corruption & despots do not help either.) Globalisation is just a 21st Century terminology for 19th Century exploitation. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:30:38 AM | Then don't vote for the government BUYING the weapons. If you don't live in a democracy, rise up and fight for what you beleive in. It's what everyone else has had to do at some point in their history.
We do but either old european backed canditates dont leave office or when they do some generals always seem to get better guns and kill them i dunno maybe its the air.
We do but mysteriously rebel groups with better guns or generals with odd alliances always seem to pop up out of nowhere I swear somebody's funding them hmmm.
No one in the uk has to endure horrible living conditions. There ARE rough council estates, but you'll find those living in them were put there because they do not live well in pleasant society. I know this because I was brought up on council estates. If you were uncivilised, you were moved to Moulscombe, the roughest estate. If you were just a bit rough, you lived on Whitehawk estate. If you were half decent and clean and tidy, you generally lived on Bevendean estate. Why should the people who wish to live decently put up with people who have zero manners.
These people CHOOSE where they end up in life.
Whilst I respect that you (by the sound of things) are a foreign student and have to pay your tuition (my ex works in this field so I do know it can be hard) UK residents are entitled to an education. Free until 18, and although paid for in higher education, it is still funded.
There aren't any excuses in this country.
Observant man and u speak sense while i fully agree on most point some politics teacher was telling me about england being a socalist state? isnt welfare included in the notion socialism?
and finaly your point of view is a sound and economical one that i must respect but the problem is not enough of these stories come out without the person being villafied the way i see the ability to pass judgement doesnt need to enter this equation econmically speaking sh'es blowing your tax money but what aout both the princes photo op military outings? with the high cost of fuel going to visit your gf in a state funded helicopter seems to be just as reckless yet i hear no one speaking of backing him back to germany and thats where i feel the racism comes in in capitalism segration is based on capital therefore quickly passing judgement on someone else's life from behind our financially better life is just as bad a calling him a Derrogatary name and when the travelling people stereotypes get added upon i feel the soup is deffo sour.
Just my thought.
Btw no preaching I just want you to realize so when wheel spins you understand the reaction.
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:39:11 AM | Whoever told you that England is a socialist state was playing with you, we are most definitely NOT. We are a democracy.
Very different things.
With the priveledges of the welfare system we operate come responsibilities. If those responsibilities are deliberately not met, the welfare should be removed, but it isn't.
This woman is abusing the system.
And you my dear sir see racism in everything. I don't care what colour you are, I judge you on your attitutdes, and you seem a little too whingey to me!
it is in their interest to maintain the 'rules' to ensure they are always in a more powerful economic trading position.
Very true, but look at Taiwan, they have my full respect. They started by taking away labour jobs from this and other countries, then built on the technology it brought. They are now key providers of technology, leading shipbuilders and have a bouyant economy. All done by their own industrious hand. Respect to them! | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:52:37 AM | England WAS a democracy, but is no longer - quick correction there mate. If we don't act sharpish we'll lose all semblance of democracy as we currently understand it.
Divide and conquer - as espoused by machielavli (sp?) is working as a great distracting factor to blind us to this simple fact. Our current political leaders are obsessed by power, as opposed to ideals. Levels of corruption in public life are becoming unacceptable. The sense of fair play which outrages so many of us about this lady (basically she's saying she despises us but will take our money) bear no semblance to the value system of our rulers.
We are rapidly moving towards a totalitarian style state, under this current government, led by someone who does not yet have the public mandate, cast at the ballot box to lead us. Or am I the only one who sees that the freedoms so hard won by my Grandparents, and Great Grandparents is the last century are being steadily eroded by recent legislation? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:54:22 AM | karlblanco - sod all this respect stuff, it's far too polite.
you're right about the prince "wasting" money but you have to bare in mind that if he hadn't taken the helicopter then we, as a nation, would have had to pay a lot more in the preparation of the said visit and with the security of the said visit, using the helicopter was the most economical way of getting him there. So, there are different issues here.
passing judgement on someone else's life from behind our financially better life is just as bad a calling him a Derrogatary name
maybe, but what is wrong with passing judgement? and don't quote the bible in reply.
when the travelling people stereotypes get added upon
stereotypes come about for a reason.
Btw no preaching I just want you to realize so when wheel spins you understand the reaction.
don't want to sound arrogant but i've been waiting for a revolution for a long time, how exactly is this wheel going to spin?
welcome to england and most people have racists views and most people deny it.
Whoever told you that England is a socialist state was playing with you, we are most definitely NOT. We are a democracy
we're a socialist state. democracy and socialism work well together, do you know what each is?
Very true, but look at Taiwan, they have my full respect. They started by taking away labour jobs from this and other countries, then built on the technology it brought. They are now key providers of technology, leading shipbuilders and have a bouyant economy. All done by their own industrious hand. Respect to them!
talk sense, all done with american backing and american dollars . | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:20:50 AM | we're a socialist state. democracy and socialism work well together, do you know what each is?
Yes, as I spent 10 years living with a Politics graduate, surrounded by people who work in Politics, not to mention a few who report on it, I'd say I do know what both mean.
Nowhere are we described as socialist.
Do YOU know what the two are?
talk sense, all done with american backing and american dollars .
I never suggested there was no investment in the country, but those who invested did very well out of it.
This wasn't funding to piss off the Chinese, this was pure investment. The hard work was done by the Taiwanese themselves. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 8:33:04 AM |
Yes, as I spent 10 years living with a Politics graduate, surrounded by people who work in Politics, not to mention a few who report on it, I'd say I do know what both mean.
bully for you it doesn't answer the question though EDIT: sorry, it does answer the question I should have phrased it better
Nowhere are we described as socialist.
socialism is an economic term not political and it concerns the dispersement of wealth in our society the best example to give of this is the welfare state, unions and local councils.
Do YOU know what the two are?
yes I do that is why I wouldn't compare the two
I never suggested there was no investment in the country
yes you did with the statement
All done by their own industrious hand
This wasn't funding to piss off the Chinese, this was pure investment
then explain the military presence in and around the formosa strait?
The hard work was done by the Taiwanese themselves
so? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:10:20 AM | socialism is an economic term not political and it concerns the dispersement of wealth in our society the best example to give of this is the welfare state, unions and local councils.
Socialism my dear friend, is a Political system which encompasses an economic system. See definitions below.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ism Audio Help /'so????l?z?m/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
yes I do that is why I wouldn't compare the two
Please name ONE socialist Democracy? (actually, there are a couple, in practical terms, but this is the joining of two political ideas)
I never suggested there was no investment in the country
yes you did with the statement
All done by their own industrious hand
Just because (some) investment was made, this detracts not at all from the hard work and entrepenerial spirit of the Tiawanese.
This wasn't funding to piss off the Chinese, this was pure investment
then explain the military presence in and around the formosa strait?
The American government was protecting the interests of it's own economy, and making a stance against china's expansionist policies.
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.
Is there a point debating with you? you are one of those types who isn't interested in realities, only your own political viewpoint. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:39:04 AM | zihuatanejomexico
using a dictionary to define a concept is not a good idea and arguing a point based on reading a page off the internet is not a good idea either
Please name ONE socialist Democracy?
the UK and France - there I named two
Just because (some) investment was made, this detracts not at all from the hard work and entrepenerial spirit of the Tiawanese
I can't see where anybody has said that
The American government was protecting the interests of it's own economy, and making a stance against china's expansionist policies.
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.
how was (and still is) the American government protecting the interests of it's own economy?
making a stance against another countries "expansionist policies"? why are America in Iraq? and the Taiwan/china issue isn't about expansion as Taiwan had been a part of china for nearly 1000 years or so, it's more to do with Taiwan wanting independence recognised
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.? I think you will find that is incorrect. first, US companies and citizen need permission from the government before trading with a foreign country and secondly, there was direct financial aid by the US government and there still is direct financial aid as well as military aid.
Is there a point debating with you?
then why are you?
you are one of those types who isn't interested in realities, only your own political viewpoint.
and what political viewpoint would that be? or who's reality? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:54:04 AM |
using a dictionary to define a concept is not a good idea and arguing a point based on reading a page off the internet is not a good idea either
Could you explain why it's a bad idea to paste the definition of a dictionary? You are arguing a point, I have shown your point is not correct. Is there some difference between the definition I would find in my Oxford English dictionary on my shelf to the perfectly serviceable dictionary online?
You say Socialism is one thing, the dictionary (paper and virtual) say otherwise. Should I give them your email so they can contact you for advice?
You need to demonstrate that you are right, not just say it.
the UK and France - there I named two
Please show me WHERE the UK and France are described as such?
(if you'd named Venezuela I'd have accepted.)
I can't see where anybody has said that
You implied it when you questioned my statement that it was their own WORK (note, not ALL their own investment, a claim I never made)
how was (and still is) the American government protecting the interests of it's own economy?
making a stance against another countries "expansionist policies"? why are America in Iraq? and the Taiwan/china issue isn't about expansion as Taiwan had been a part of china for nearly 1000 years or so, it's more to do with Taiwan wanting independence recognised
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.? I think you will find that is incorrect. first, US companies and citizen need permission from the government before trading with a foreign country and secondly, there was direct financial aid by the US government and there still is direct financial aid as well as military aid.
American companies have interests in Taiwan, as Taiwan has interests in American companies. Whether Taiwan is part of China is debatable, and is in fact being debated. Most hotly by the Taiwanese (note, not chinese, Taiwanese, a seperate state.)
To answer the other points, permission to invest possibly, but that is not the same as putting up the cash. Aid is aid, not ivestment, the two are very different.
then why are you?
Because I'm dogged, and enjoying seeing what you'l come up with next. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:12:38 AM | zihuatanejomexico
Please show me WHERE the UK and France are described as such?
the previous post
the UK and France - there I named two
You implied it when you questioned my statement that it was their own WORK (note, not ALL their own investment, a claim I never made)
i don't see what you are trying to argue here, you agree that taiwan has seen heavy investment from outside sources?
American companies have interests in Taiwan, as Taiwan has interests in American companies. Whether Taiwan is part of China is debatable, and is in fact being debated. Most hotly by the Taiwanese (note, not chinese, Taiwanese, a seperate state.)
so you are agreeing with me
Aid is aid, not ivestment, the two are very different.
for somebody who
spent 10 years living with a Politics graduate, surrounded by people who work in Politics, not to mention a few who report on it, I think it is a bit naive to argue such a point. the FACT is america is investing in taiwan, if you want to argue over terminology such as "aid" I'll get my dictionary out.
Because I'm dogged, and enjoying seeing what you'l come up with next.
hope you enjoy it, what does "dogged" mean? | |
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