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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:10:20 AM | socialism is an economic term not political and it concerns the dispersement of wealth in our society the best example to give of this is the welfare state, unions and local councils.
Socialism my dear friend, is a Political system which encompasses an economic system. See definitions below.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ism Audio Help /'so????l?z?m/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
yes I do that is why I wouldn't compare the two
Please name ONE socialist Democracy? (actually, there are a couple, in practical terms, but this is the joining of two political ideas)
I never suggested there was no investment in the country
yes you did with the statement
All done by their own industrious hand
Just because (some) investment was made, this detracts not at all from the hard work and entrepenerial spirit of the Tiawanese.
This wasn't funding to piss off the Chinese, this was pure investment
then explain the military presence in and around the formosa strait?
The American government was protecting the interests of it's own economy, and making a stance against china's expansionist policies.
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.
Is there a point debating with you? you are one of those types who isn't interested in realities, only your own political viewpoint. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:39:04 AM | zihuatanejomexico
using a dictionary to define a concept is not a good idea and arguing a point based on reading a page off the internet is not a good idea either
Please name ONE socialist Democracy?
the UK and France - there I named two
Just because (some) investment was made, this detracts not at all from the hard work and entrepenerial spirit of the Tiawanese
I can't see where anybody has said that
The American government was protecting the interests of it's own economy, and making a stance against china's expansionist policies.
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.
how was (and still is) the American government protecting the interests of it's own economy?
making a stance against another countries "expansionist policies"? why are America in Iraq? and the Taiwan/china issue isn't about expansion as Taiwan had been a part of china for nearly 1000 years or so, it's more to do with Taiwan wanting independence recognised
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.? I think you will find that is incorrect. first, US companies and citizen need permission from the government before trading with a foreign country and secondly, there was direct financial aid by the US government and there still is direct financial aid as well as military aid.
Is there a point debating with you?
then why are you?
you are one of those types who isn't interested in realities, only your own political viewpoint.
and what political viewpoint would that be? or who's reality? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:54:04 AM |
using a dictionary to define a concept is not a good idea and arguing a point based on reading a page off the internet is not a good idea either
Could you explain why it's a bad idea to paste the definition of a dictionary? You are arguing a point, I have shown your point is not correct. Is there some difference between the definition I would find in my Oxford English dictionary on my shelf to the perfectly serviceable dictionary online?
You say Socialism is one thing, the dictionary (paper and virtual) say otherwise. Should I give them your email so they can contact you for advice?
You need to demonstrate that you are right, not just say it.
the UK and France - there I named two
Please show me WHERE the UK and France are described as such?
(if you'd named Venezuela I'd have accepted.)
I can't see where anybody has said that
You implied it when you questioned my statement that it was their own WORK (note, not ALL their own investment, a claim I never made)
how was (and still is) the American government protecting the interests of it's own economy?
making a stance against another countries "expansionist policies"? why are America in Iraq? and the Taiwan/china issue isn't about expansion as Taiwan had been a part of china for nearly 1000 years or so, it's more to do with Taiwan wanting independence recognised
The financial investments were from private American companies, not the American government.? I think you will find that is incorrect. first, US companies and citizen need permission from the government before trading with a foreign country and secondly, there was direct financial aid by the US government and there still is direct financial aid as well as military aid.
American companies have interests in Taiwan, as Taiwan has interests in American companies. Whether Taiwan is part of China is debatable, and is in fact being debated. Most hotly by the Taiwanese (note, not chinese, Taiwanese, a seperate state.)
To answer the other points, permission to invest possibly, but that is not the same as putting up the cash. Aid is aid, not ivestment, the two are very different.
then why are you?
Because I'm dogged, and enjoying seeing what you'l come up with next. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:12:38 AM | zihuatanejomexico
Please show me WHERE the UK and France are described as such?
the previous post
the UK and France - there I named two
You implied it when you questioned my statement that it was their own WORK (note, not ALL their own investment, a claim I never made)
i don't see what you are trying to argue here, you agree that taiwan has seen heavy investment from outside sources?
American companies have interests in Taiwan, as Taiwan has interests in American companies. Whether Taiwan is part of China is debatable, and is in fact being debated. Most hotly by the Taiwanese (note, not chinese, Taiwanese, a seperate state.)
so you are agreeing with me
Aid is aid, not ivestment, the two are very different.
for somebody who
spent 10 years living with a Politics graduate, surrounded by people who work in Politics, not to mention a few who report on it, I think it is a bit naive to argue such a point. the FACT is america is investing in taiwan, if you want to argue over terminology such as "aid" I'll get my dictionary out.
Because I'm dogged, and enjoying seeing what you'l come up with next.
hope you enjoy it, what does "dogged" mean? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:16:44 AM | No, it's you who started the 'argument' but you refuse to do anything other than state your own (flawed) opinion.
Which makes this all pretty pointless.
Debate it or forget it. If you're going to debate it, make a point and show some proof, saying it isn't proof.
Endex until you adhere to the above. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:27:27 AM |
England WAS a democracy, but is no longer - quick correction there mate. If we don't act sharpish we'll lose all semblance of democracy as we currently understand it.
Divide and conquer - as espoused by machielavli (sp?) is working as a great distracting factor to blind us to this simple fact. Our current political leaders are obsessed by power, as opposed to ideals. Levels of corruption in public life are becoming unacceptable. The sense of fair play which outrages so many of us about this lady (basically she's saying she despises us but will take our money) bear no semblance to the value system of our rulers.
We are rapidly moving towards a totalitarian style state, under this current government, led by someone who does not yet have the public mandate, cast at the ballot box to lead us. Or am I the only one who sees that the freedoms so hard won by my Grandparents, and Great Grandparents is the last century are being steadily eroded by recent legislation?
I agree with you. Vast powers have been handed to the undemocratic EU "state" and they make legislation that DIRECTLY impinges on our individual freedoms.Those powers were given them by various PMs starting with the traitor Heath who admitted he lied to the British people about what exactly the European Economic Community was.Thatcher gave further powers away as did Major and Blair.Now we are faced with a situation where British regional states [the countries of Wales,Northern Ireland and Scotland] have their own parliaments but the English are denied one.Where an UNELECTED Prime minister can make laws that do NOT affect his scottish constituancy but do affect English taxpayers. How many of his cabinet and Heads of various Departments arescots with scottish constituancys? And how can he, supposedly a "socialist" ,defend taxing the lowest paid the highest amount per capita?
The English taxpayer now lives in a Tyranny not a democracy.We had no say.We should have.Mr Brown has risen to power under false pretences.Didnt Adolph Hitler do the same? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:28:38 AM |
Which makes this all pretty pointless.
it's a forum of course it's pretty pointless
Debate it or forget it. If you're going to debate it, make a point and show some proof, saying it isn't proof.
I am debating it - what proof would you like - stuff I can copy and paste of the internet?
Endex until you adhere to the above.
endex doesn't seem to be in my dictionary, what does that mean? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:32:43 AM |
Which makes this all pretty pointless.
it's a forum of course it's pretty pointless
Debate it or forget it. If you're going to debate it, make a point and show some proof, saying it isn't proof.
I am debating it - what proof would you like - stuff I can copy and paste of the internet?
Endex until you adhere to the above.
endex doesn't seem to be in my dictionary, what does that mean?
Ah, I see, you can't argue it so you've moved on to trying to take the piss, lol. Ok.
Re quoting from the internet (actually a dictionary, I have made this point so clearly that even a stupid person can recognise it)..........you've yet to explain why this is so terrible (assuming the sourse is reputable)
Endex simply means end of excercise :)
Come on, surely you can do better? | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:52:09 AM |
Ah, I see, you can't argue it so you've moved on to trying to take the piss, lol. Ok.
you were agreeing with me with most issues, so what point would you like to argue?
defining things out of a dictionary other than basic meanings of words is not a wise thing to do especially for social concepts. As any of your "political" friends will tell you they are just too complicated to define in one sentence.
after re-reading the posts the only evidence you have presented is a dictionary definition of the term socialism. would you like me to copy and paste essays by louis blanc, lenin, trotsky, anthony crosland, milton friedman etc. etc.
social democracy is usually considered
a Political system
socialism is about economics.
finally, why do you say I am not worth arguing with, but then continue and "endex" but yet still continue. If you want to stop then stop pressing those square things with letters on, it works wonders. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:06:10 PM |
you were agreeing with me with most issues, so what point would you like to argue?
I don't doubt that I agree with you on some issues. Just not about the actual issue we were discussing, which to refresh your memory was:
You postulate that th UK is a Socialist state, I say it isn't and can find nowhere where it's refered to as such.
You say that Socialism is just an economic system and not a political one, and whilst I understand what you mean, I disagree, it is part of a political system.
Some other things were brought up by you, but they are not the things I'm arguing.
Re what you post, that's up to you, though I'd have chosen Marx......however, even he would say socialism is the next step from capitalism toward collectivism. Which would prove my point that it's a political system.
Socialism is about economics, yes, as part of a political system.
We are actually a capitalist Democracy, not a socialist one.
I said end of the argument, and it was, the next statements I made were not arguments.
This is an argument (in the debating sense) because you have said something worth replying to.
P.S. your sarcasm really needs as much work as your logic. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:06:57 PM |
after re-reading the posts the only evidence you have presented is a dictionary definition of the term socialism. would you like me to copy and paste essays by louis blanc, lenin, trotsky, anthony crosland, milton friedman etc. etc.
I would  But not for the same reasons. And you might get banned for bumping threads or something... | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:28:37 PM | zihuatanejomexico
it is part of a political system
now you are changing what you said, but glad you are agreeing with me
though I'd have chosen Marx......however, even he would say socialism is the next step from capitalism toward collectivism. Which would prove my point that it's a political system.
didn't marx say that socialism would be the socioeconomic system that is practiced after a proletarian revolution. maybe you should read ALL the web page before quoting from it.
Socialism is about economics, yes, as part of a political system.
again nice to see you are agreeing with me
We are actually a capitalist Democracy, not a socialist one.
debatable, yes capitalism is a large part of our society, but the political economics is still based on socialism.
I said end of the argument, and it was
that's a matter of opinion
This is an argument (in the debating sense) because you have said something worth replying to.
unlike some
P.S. your sarcasm really needs as much work as your logic
how am I doing?
PS: I'm going out for dinner in a moment, but I will respond and continue to educate you (for free) when I return. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 12:36:57 PM | I never said it wasn't part of a political system.
What you're doing here is meandering around the original argument because you can't back it up.
So, I'll refresh your memory.
I typed:
Whoever told you that England is a socialist state was playing with you, we are most definitely NOT. We are a democracy.
Then you typed:
we're a socialist state. democracy and socialism work well together, do you know what each is?
So I typed:
Nowhere are we described as socialist.
So in answer to how you're doing on logic, badly I'd say because you have yet to argue your point at all.
Not once have you shown where or why we are a socialist state.
So no, I do not agree with you. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:08:06 PM | | I see people arguing about whether socialism is an economic term or a political term.... but is economics a part of politics? After all, politicians keep harping on about the economy (like I give a shit about the national economy when in their terms it means UK businesses). What I care about is having enough money to live in my own house (which I currently can't afford). | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:35:39 AM |
Not once have you shown where or why we are a socialist state
that was answered in message 96. If you do not wish to accept reality for what it is then that is your choice or if you are having trouble understanding the answer then you should have just asked politely for me to explain it to you. Alternatively, you could try picking up a book and reading it.
book - noun
1. a written or printed work of fiction or nonfiction, usually on sheets of paper fastened or bound together within covers
as it is, I see we are in violation of a number of thread rules. So, unfortunately I will not be able to respond to your inane dribble any longer, I do apologise. However, if you wish to make any other absurd statements concerning foreign gypsies claiming benefit then I will be glad to respond.
so in your words:
Endex until you adhere to the above
I said end of the argument, and it was | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:52:22 AM | that was answered in message 96. If you do not wish to accept reality for what it is then that is your choice or if you are having trouble understanding the answer then you should have just asked politely for me to explain it to you.
in message 96 you typed:
'socialism is an economic term not political and it concerns the dispersement of wealth in our society the best example to give of this is the welfare state, unions and local councils.'
This is (depending how you view it) partly correct, or partly incorrect. Socialism is an economic system implemented by a political system, it forms part of a political system. Nowhere still have you shown where the UK is described by anyone other than yourself as a socialist state, which was your original argument.
Regarding reality:
We ARE described as a Capitalist Democracy, practically everywhere. Having a welfare state does not constitute socialism.
Alternatively, you could try picking up a book and reading it.
You do yourself few favours here. The amount I read would put many scholars to shame, over the course of my life subjects have included flying, sailing, Engineering (which my degree is in) psychology, politics, post modernist feminism, most of the classics and lots of poetry. Including those in storage and still at my Ex's place, I probably own in excess of 500 books, most of which I've read.
How about you?
The rest of your post seems to me you trying to have the last word and not argue any more, which is fine, but if you DO reply, I'll simply ask again:
Please justify your original statement which I'll yet again refresh your memory with:
we're a socialist state. democracy and socialism work well together, do you know what each is?
hope this helps. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/28/2008 6:43:13 PM | not all countries expect visitors to behave like the indigenous population. I went to the states the other month and I wasn't forced to wear stupid shorts, talk loudly and eat macdonalds even at the border crossing. Thank the Lord.
But it does stink a bit that someone could live here and expect to have benefits but not obey any of the laws that govern the tax payers who provide the benefits. However if we start using racial terms in the same sentences as words like scum, work shy, criminal, abusers etc etc then we are starting to get racist. There are plenty of british people who have no intention of working during their lifetime, and who want loads of children to bump up the benefit payments. They commit considerable numbers of minor crimes and repeatedly stick their finger up at traditional british social values. But we can't deport them anywhere except Gainsborough  so certain honourable organs of the press highlight migrants instead so to stir up racial hatred.
As to the merits of the tax system, why not do away with money - currency all together.
Everybody gets paid in hours. It doesn't matter what you do for work, road sweeper, nurse, MP or factory manager, you get paid in hours. and at the same rate of one hour for one hours work. and you pay tax at the same rate. everyone (able to work) pays say 12 hours a week in tax. and we all pay the same for food and accommodation. We no longer own our houses beyond the grave. We just pay say 15 hours a week for a room located nearest our place of work. If you want kids then you have to work more hours and then pay more hours for more rooms for the kids.
You get the idea. The essential bit been that people are equally responsible for paying their way and just because they have a fancy job like footballer or popsinger, they still have to put in the same time to pay taxes etc.
Thats unless you really think that just because someone is a more ruthless baastard in business and employs chinese child labourers to make el cheapo clothing to sell at vast profit in britain, and so earns more in a day than the average working person does in a year that they only have to give up 2% of their income on life's essentials where as the average working person has to give up 70% of their income to pay for the essentials. I mean accommodation, basic food, power, taxes etc and not eating out, holidays, entertainment etc.
And as to the bollshite retort that if you dont like working for someone else then set up in business. firstly, if everyone did, some people would be well peeved that they couldnt so easily make such great profits out of the labour of others. and it wouldnt happen anyway because those ruthless baastard business types would use any dodge they could to squeeze the smaller guy, bankcrupt him, control him. Thats what they have always done. Before the mid C20th if you tried to go on strike you risked been beaten up, imprisioned and maybe even killed. And as most accommodation was owned by the factory or mine owners you'd also have your family thrown out into the street. And I am not talking about secondary action or picketing, just simply refusing to work which surely is anyone's right to do, and the factory and mine owners would bribe the local magistrate into sending in the hired thug bootboys.
So there you have it, a quick guide to revolution.
hug someone new today
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/29/2008 1:07:51 AM | | whats wrong with gypsys..? they are ok..even though they pay no tax and national insurance..badger bait.fight there dogs,and put a strain on the nhs..they sell us cheap clothes line pegs and tarmac our drives...so there is good and bad in everyone... | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/29/2008 2:03:29 AM | Bit of a thread hijack going on here. How did the blatant racist story of this gypsy woman turn into a thread on politics and economics?
I say blatant racist because that is what it is. If this was an English woman doing the same thing the derogatory terms would still be there but without the emphasis on her being a gypsy or an immigrant. The way this piece was written is to put emphasis on her race and immigrant status and thus imply that all of her race and all immigrants are of the same ilk. Go back and look at the replies before the thread got hijacked ansd you can see how it works. "They should be sent back" "bloody gypsies" and "there's is a reason for stereotypes" There is yes, it's mainly so that you can feel superior to them and feel better about yourself. In times of conflict it's the first step in "demonising" the enemy in order to make easier to kill or accept their deaths.
When will you understand people are people whatever their race, religion or whatever? The majority are ok, some are very good and others are total c*nts. Thankfully most are ok.
So yes she and her views maybe despicable, although as it was a Daily Mail report I would question the veracity. But that doesn't make all gypsies and immigrants as bad. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/29/2008 5:37:19 PM | open mouthed and saddened im wif the fookn gypsy gal, BRITISH VALUES !!! why dont you read the last few pages take a good look at yourselves in the mirror and pretend the whole argument isnt about something long gone. mythical has replaced ethical ,i just hope these responses are not actual widespread public opinion.
LET a conservative cabinet dismantle uk industry infrastructure for decades, let the fatcat invite and exploit thousands of lower paid immigrants then spit them out (after blaming them for uk,s social and economic failings) but if one gipsy women dares to be a true tradionalist in a democratic society and has the audacity to claim benefits ,bring out the witching stool,sure sells papers .
On a lighter note these people have been shunned,blamed and persecuted for centuries ,they could teach you plenty about british value. | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/29/2008 6:00:01 PM | Papa Lazarou is a cool gypsy.
Teetotal, never tipsy.
Steals wives, sells wooden pegs.
Lives on boiled chicken legs.
NOW, I dare you to say gypsies are all scum!
The first human tribes on earth were believed to be nomadic, so, obviously its all the mortgage & council tax payers who have missed the boat. (or caravan, with Sky plus) | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 6/30/2008 2:58:30 AM | I THINK THAT WE HAVE ON EARTH GOOD AND NOT SO GOOD HUMANS,but for a start this gipsy woman claimed that she live the live she WANT.why she did not give her daughter the same choice?
most of the traveler gipsys from other countries are a huge problem to the British gov.
around 10 years ago i did translate (for emigrations).the most shocking one for me has afamily of4 adults& 2 kids.they entered from France(surprised?)2 weeks previous to the intervew,purchased a nice car the same day(no driving licence) and headed for IRELAND.
they had a benefit book individualy,kids clothes all M&S((PAID FOR?i dont think so)
and when asked how much money they had ,the shoking answer was
-ONLY£5000(cash)yes,the amount is corect,cos i broke the 'rules'by askins twice
they ,all,was sent back to France on next plane .
EC do all the 'ruling'now and this is the answer
i am originaly from east of europe and i did wait over 5 years for a legal visa,i have a British pass. and i am gratefull for the chance of my kids to grow up here.i adapted to this country's rules(even in our homes we have them) and learned the language as fast as i was able and i am proud to say that i never needed so spend the tax payer's money/special to have a intrepretor with me when i applied for jobs etc.
HOW CAN SOME PEOPLE LIVE HERE FOR YEARS AND STILL EXPECT THE OTHERS TO KNOW THEIR LANGUAGE?(but this is another story cos not only gipsy people are like this woman,some are even using religion to do this thingh)
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 8/10/2008 7:37:26 AM | I agree with you. Vast powers have been handed to the undemocratic EU "state" and they make legislation that DIRECTLY impinges on our individual freedoms.Those powers were given them by various PMs starting with the traitor Heath who admitted he lied to the British people about what exactly the European Economic Community was.Thatcher gave further powers away as did Major and Blair.Now we are faced with a situation where British regional states [the countries of Wales,Northern Ireland and Scotland] have their own parliaments but the English are denied one.Where an UNELECTED Prime minister can make laws that do NOT affect his scottish constituancy but do affect English taxpayers. How many of his cabinet and Heads of various Departments arescots with scottish constituancys? And how can he, supposedly a "socialist" ,defend taxing the lowest paid the highest amount per capita?
The English taxpayer now lives in a Tyranny not a democracy.We had no say.We should have.Mr Brown has risen to power under false pretences.Didnt Adolph Hitler do the same?
Hmmm this thread has went off on a tangient but i do detect a slight hint of isolation and identity crisis/nationalist ignorance in the above paragraphs.
Ok gordon cant cope with the false promise and blood spilled by his predecessor,But it was ok to have a Scottish chancellor who at the time did pull the uk economy from the depths of oblivion!!!
Devolution is a direct result of depravation,shouldnt a scottish prime minister be a positive situation , i dont know what the english press implies but the majority of scots do want a voice now and again but the union should stand,we have lived for decades united,we just dont agree with every westminster policy.
you seem to forget it was a union of many crowns,i wont ever make an issue of the uk citizen in charge region of origin(thats the sort of thing wee adolf would do) | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 8/10/2008 8:24:27 AM | | i agree with all u say on here ,,but also the government allows her to do this ,,nowadays the government and laws make it easier for the people coming in our country to live,,and harder for all the ones who were born n bred in this country,, the people who work for a living get looked down on by the government and the scroungers get everything,,i say if the government made it harder for these people to claim then maybe they will get off their asses and contribute | |
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| British values mean nothing to me, says gipsy mother......
Posted: 8/10/2008 11:49:24 AM | Take Lewis Hamilton for example, now a resident of Switzerland and saving a reported four million PA in tax, how can it be right that someone in his position is expected to hand over such a monumental amount of money every year into a system he will never ask or be in a position to require anything from?
In order to maintain a system under which he was able to acquire and hold onto his loot in the first place ? | |
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