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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:11:44 PM | | I read through most of the responses on here and there was one thing that I didn't see. What ever happened to the marriage vow "in sickness and in health"? I can't imagine why the husband had a terrible bout of depression just because his wife tells him that she isn't happy and needs more in her life come on get real. This poor guy is sick and needs someone to take care of him and I'm sorry but I think it was extremely selfish for the wife to ever mention how she felt to him. I can't imagine why an new budding relationship would go south when the man hears about what happened with her and her husband. Hum if she's done it once why wouldn't she do it again. I haven't been in the situation with the husband but I did take care of my mom until she took her last breath. I put my life on hold until I was almost 42 years old. And let me tell you if I had a chance to do it all over again I would NOT hesitate one minute to put my life on hold and take care of my mom. That's true love. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:20:40 PM | I met a lady whose husband had Hodgkins disease, a cancer of the lymph glands. She was separating from him because he would not stay on his treatment plan when he was well and she was so tired of taking care of him when he was sick when, in her mind, he would not take care of himself. There were other problems in the marriage that contributed to her distress, there always are. She moved out, he died and I married her. In hindsight it was a mistake. It was her own selfishness that lead her to leave and that same selfishness contributed to the destruction of our marriage.
However I do not generalize from this, the details of each situation are different. We should all applaud the caregiver who sticks with it to the end, but we should withhold judgment of one who does not until we know the whole story. And we hardly ever do. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 3:36:37 AM | Very good advise Wayward. I stand with those who decide NOT to judge this woman; as you say....we do NOT know the whole story.
We can't possibly know whether PERHAPS, there were OTHER problems in the marriage. Long term illnesses or as the OP put it...."debilitating diseases" effect not only the person with them....but everyone who cares about them as well.
I have to question, aside from physical impairments....what mental and emotional affects did the man suffer? Did he become resentful and hateful toward his wife because she could and did do all the things that needed done? Did it appear to her that he blamed her for his misery? Did he take things out on her because she was able to be involved with the children and he wasn't. Did he APPRECIATE any of the sacrifices she made to care for him during those "double digit" years?
We like to push the "for better or worse, til death do us part" stuff down the throats of OTHERS....but how many have been able to justify breaking those promises.....let's say...if she gains 300 lbs.....or if he becomes an alcholic and loses his job?
Don't judge this woman unless you've walked a mile or 6 in HER shoes. And don't give me that nonsense that you cared for an ailing PARENT. It is NOT the same. Not unless you dependend on that parent for a "marital" relationship, and all the DIFFERENT kinds of support and affection that the term implies. (Then you're one sick puppy!) | |
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| He is sick, she left him...Into Thin Air
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:26:16 AM | 3 similar scenarios:
1) my father couldn't get out of the car to go visit my sister when she was institutionalized (mentally retarded, with epilepsy)...it was too emotionally draining. The handicap issues put numerous strains on our family. He dealt with this for 15 years until he contracted brain cancer and died at 53.
2) sister's (first) husband told her he would divorce her if she "got fat." The second one says the same thing (she's a size 4). Her 2nd husband's sister weighs abour 375.
3) Into Thin Air is a book written by 1 guy who survivied an ascent of Everest--but 4 or more of his friends perished.
In #1, he stayed in the marriage--yet--did he "check out" because of the stress?
In #2, I find the concept mind boggling--how many women DO acquiesce to weight or money issues in a prenup? That's a happy marriage. In #3, I found the author's survival instincts distinctly distasteful.
I'd guess a large portion of divorced folk on this site were in marriages they left because of an illness--alcholism, anger/rage, gambling, fidelity, or other addictions, mental illness. Some may have simply left; others may have been deeply disturbed, gotten counseling, but nonetheless went forward with certain "absolutes" about not tolerating that situation...again.
The way ikiera describes this situation, her friend showed a lot of compassion, yet recognized her own health was at risk (my gawd, I didn't know so many think sex is the only motivator). It sounds as though there's some kind of lingering emotional grief, guilt, sadness. Why do some divorced folk start over so successfully and others can't seem to? It seems this woman put a lot of effort and love into the marriage. How many of us have stayed in emotionally or even physically unhealthy circumstances because we were 'committed'? We don't know the details of this one, we don't know others' tolerance levels. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...Into Thin Air
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:06:44 AM | | My husband was very ill for the last ten years of his life ( Some brain damaged included ) . Leaving him was never ever on my mind, because I was just happy that he lived through it. If your child was hurt and had to be taken care would anyone ditch them? No because you love them and that is the way I loved my husband. Now i'm not saying it was easy or that I didn't feel like life was passing me by sometimes but there are alot of hard knocks people has to go through and that is just one of them. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:37:22 AM |
However I do not generalize from this, the details of each situation are different. We should all applaud the caregiver who sticks with it to the end, but we should withhold judgment of one who does not until we know the whole story
Withholding judgments is impossible. So I don't now the whole story, so what, I don't need the whole story to judge the incidents that are being described.
Should we say it's was OK for someone to cheat on a spouse because they had an argument?
My guess is that those asking (more like demanding) us not to make judgments are attempting to justify their own selfish treatment towards other's in their lives and fear being seen as unwanted.
Even if I knew the whole story, I'd still judge the incidents within that story. Overall, I may have some compassion for the woman's plight but the fact of the matter is that she made a promise when they exchanged rings and then decided there was a good enough reason to break it.
Telling people not to make judgments is the same as telling them to 'please be stupid'. | |
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| I was sick, I left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:42:51 AM | My ex-husband figured he was set for life. He had a sick wife who needed taking care of. So, although his primary neurotic fear was of abandonment by a central female figure (starts with his mother), he figured I would never leave him. The little misbehaviors that had always infuriated me - such as hiding money away, community property money, and spending outlandishly on things I wasn't supposed to find out about - escalated. He figured I would never leave him.
I left him anyway.
And now - sicker and more disabled than before, and alone - do I regret it? Well, I think 7 years of him getting psychotherapy and antidepressants, becoming quite sick himself, and being stuck with the less pleasing traits of the first woman he could connect with on the rebound, STILL have not made him into the man I want to grow old with. I think he'd still annoy the piss out of me. If I met him on a dating site, would he get a second date? Hell - when I was married to him - before either of us got sick - I remember sitting with him in a movie theater, waiting for the show to start, not a WORD of communication, thinking "If this were a date, I wouldn't see him another time."
So this is an example of "in sickness and in health" still resulting in a divorce, and never mind either party being to blame. We just weren't compatible, and the stress of a serious illness just made that more obvious and impossible to ignore. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 7:47:23 AM | | let only those who have experienced the same demanding situation as she, judge her. | |
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| I was sick, I left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:22:54 AM |
My ex-husband figured he was set for life. He had a sick wife who needed taking care of. So, although his primary neurotic fear was of abandonment by a central female figure (starts with his mother), he figured I would never leave him. The little misbehaviors that had always infuriated me - such as hiding money away, community property money, and spending outlandishly on things I wasn't supposed to find out about - escalated. He figured I would never leave him.
Did you make a vow and break it? Yes. Did you marry someone you didn't know very well? Sounds like it.
Will your next relationship feel secure that you will be able to make and keep a promise to love in sickness and health? Probably not.
My ex thought I was hiding money too, even though we had a joint checking account and she deposited my paychecks and controlled the check book.
I've learned my lesson about trying to have a relationship with someone easily annoyed and infuriated, especially when those emotions are allowed to dictate behavior.
let only those who have experienced the same demanding situation as she, judge her.
another judgmental statement! | |
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| When the going gets tough, the tough get going...
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:55:17 AM |
let only those who have experienced the same demanding situation as she, judge her.
Morality is not dependent on personal experience. What is wrong remains wrong whether a person has had direct experience with it or not. If I was in the same situation as OP’s friend and did the same thing -- and I really have no idea whether I would behave differently or not -- all my talk about my hardships, how difficult it was for me, asking people to ‘walk a mile in my shoes’, would not change the fact that what I did was wrong – in the opinion of what I define as my own morality, that is. Yes, it would be convenient if the definitions of morality could be changed to fit individual circumstances. Unfortunately though, it doesn’t work that way. What is wrong, remains wrong, no matter what the circumstance.
cdn guy | |
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| Re: Msg 59
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:17:37 AM |
another judgmental statement!
Well, I declare! If pot ever called kettle black ..... MacKevinized you are one of the most paranoid and fixated forum participants I have ever seen - anywhere! | |
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| and after moral failings, comes ...
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:29:25 AM | cdn guy wrote,
Morality is not dependent on personal experience. What is wrong remains wrong whether a person has had direct experience with it or not. If I was in the same situation as OP’s friend and did the same thing -- and I really have no idea whether I would behave differently or not -- all my talk about my hardships, how difficult it was for me, asking people to ‘walk a mile in my shoes’, would not change the fact that what I did was wrong – in the opinion of what I define as my own morality, that is. Yes, it would be convenient if the definitions of morality could be changed to fit individual circumstances. Unfortunately though, it doesn’t work that way. What is wrong, remains wrong, no matter what the circumstance.
We've all done things we knew - at the time, or in retrospect - were wrong. Every last one of us has.
The question here - for the OP's friend - is what do you do then?
I'd recommend the friend forgive herself, stop telling dates about the basis of her breakup, and resolve to be a better person in the future. The fact that she is still telling everyone about this mess tells me she hasn't come to an ethical resolution, seeks forgiveness in all the wrong places, and probably isn't ready to date just yet. | |
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| Re: Msg 59
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:57:19 AM |
Did you make a vow and break it? Yes.  Ya gotta love those self serving 1/2 answers Royal Pain. Never mind the part of the vow that said....."to love, HONOR and cherish".....it's like some "disabled" persons are so busy feeling sorry for themselves that they expect everyone else to cater and sacrifice for them....and THEY feel that breaking THEIR part of the vow is justified...because they had some illness as an excuse. Yes, when they drive their partners to the brink of sucide with their bitterness, they NEVER see that as equally debilitating.
You (Royal Pain) have shown us the OPPOSITE side of the coin....a person who decided to live a WHOLE life.....as much as you're able...without complaint and whinning. You are able to see past your disability, even to separate it from consideration when you determine what behaviors are acceptable, and NOT acceptable from BOTH sides of the fence.
When I tossed out the example of men who divorce their wives because they gain weight....I neglected to mention those who will also divorce their wife.....or physically or mentally abuse her if she loses weight...or is attractive in any way to other men. Sounds like the mentality of your ex.....he wanted you disabled so that you were easier to take advantage of. Funny....but that certainly does NOT sound like "love or honor" to me. Those who uphold their double standards as the only way to not "be stupid" should be pitied......they will never find the peace....or the integrity that you have found. | |
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| Re: All Messages
Posted: 5/17/2008 12:34:04 PM | MacK does make alot more sense then the people who claim to "walk in my shoes". There will be judgements, as another poster stated, we judge ourselves and others every day, for good or bad. There is a reason for educating our brains. Its not just merely to make intellectual conversations, be flirtatous and seek employment, it is also to make good choices in everyday life. You cannot compare walking with a cross on your back for the ultimate sacrifrice, to walking a mile of illness...now try walking in those miles, most of us would punk out. But if we had a clear plan in our heads on how this sacrifrice will enrich your life, strengten character and make you a better person, I would think we could do it.
People here seem to think that they are a weak and worthless, certainly not worthy of having a partner who should quietly and reverently choose to take care of us when we are ill or dying, no matter how we would act. Being in a relationship is not always about fun and games. Because those who say, "don't judge, walk in her shoes", you know what, I don't have to walk in her shoes...her shoes are universal...she's not the only one walking them but I'll observe and I will judge her according to my morals or our mode of conduct, which we all have. Those who don't want others to judge, what they're really saying is, "I've done quite a few dozies in my lifetime and don't want anyone to point out to me what I already know...I wasn't a worthwhile person".
One would have to be a total idiot to believe that at the time of saying vows, people won't age and become ill to such an extent that one or the other will have to be a caregiver for the spouse. Especially for those who marry older partners. Are we that shallow or what? We are not getting any younger, tell me that having someone who loves you and cares about you, will not impact you better than some stranger at a facilties center who doesn't give two cents about you. We've all heard of the many abuses in nursing homes, haven't we.
Yes, ill people can be hurtful, resentful, angry and verbally abusive. But my gosh, have any of you thought about how scared, fearful and angry they must feel. They were healthy, being the man of the house, or woman and now they cannot...correct me if I'm wrong but aren't marriages suppose to be a partnership.
All anyone has done is pat Ms. Flight risk on the back...oh poor baby...she had to go to work, earn money, care for her kids (which many a single mother/father have done for ages, and it hasn't broken them), run the house...she had to step up to the plate and show what kind of wife she was really made of. She could not be the Suzy Homemaker anymore, she had to now support her family and care for an ailing husband...oh please. She's never experience a war, never had her children blown up from underneath her, has never experience hunger of the magnitude of India, or doesn't live in proverty of the magnititude of Africa...
People who bail out on an ill spouse don't have a clue about relationships and marriage. Marriage is where the real work of selflessness really starts. I believe God created it, not just to bind people together, but to create an environment depicting the gift of sacrifrice, charity, endurance, and fidelity, not unlike the the Son carrying the cross for all humankind, in this case it would be just one person, your children, your family. When you fail in this most important relationship...you fail yourself, your spouse, your family, any other relationship that comes after (because as she's learning, others have their mode of conduct even if they are not religious in any way). And this is why second marriages after, never work...we don't learn that to sacrifrice means exactly that, to think of the other person as you would want that person to think of you.
Reading many of these ads from men and women, say the same thing. Someone who will treat me as I would treat them. This woman is not living up to the potential that she is and as such will never be happy because she expects others, circumstances to make her happy...yes, it is not easy taking care of an ill person, but attitude plays a big part in it and remembering that she choose to be a steward over her responsibilities when she said I do. She's leaving a heritage and examples to her family and friends that speaks volumes and that is sad. That people are disposal when not living the way we want them to live, that people feelings are not important as long as they are feeding mine first, that LOVE is conditional and if that is so, then most of us on these sites posting ads are liars and deceivers.
This kind of reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritian...a total stranger takes care of another total stranger, never whined, never complain, just took care of this stranger, because it was the selfless thing to do...no history, no knowledge of whether he was a murderer, sex offender, or thief...how much more will such unselfish acts be require of us with our lifelong spouses that we've actually made a covenant to when we stand to be really judged. I promise you, this woman will cry when she realizes what she's actually lost.
Paris | |
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| Re: All Messages
Posted: 5/17/2008 1:31:44 PM | | OP: Your friend made her choices and must reap her just reward. This is my judgemental answer. We reap what we sow! | |
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| and after moral failings, comes ...
Posted: 5/17/2008 2:54:53 PM |
I'd recommend the friend forgive herself, stop telling dates about the basis of her breakup, and resolve to be a better person in the future. The fact that she is still telling everyone about this mess tells me she hasn't come to an ethical resolution, seeks forgiveness in all the wrong places, and probably isn't ready to date just yet.
Yea right. When her dates ask what happened to her marriage, she should do what? Lie or tell them it's none of their business.
My ex wife did that she told everyone that I was a lazy creep that made her go to work while I slept on the couch for 24 hours a day.
That worked for her divorce lawyer until the judge made the lawyer read the medical report out loud. When my ex started protesting that I faked it all so that I could collect on her inheritance, her lawyer told her to keep her mouth shut. The judge told us he wished spouses had the same rights as animals because then he could toss her into jail for abandoning me the way she did.
Maybe she SHOULD find someone that walked in her shoes. Some one that had an ill spouse they cheated on.
Maybe POF should subdivide the Divorced status into the dumped and the dumpies to make it easier to recognize each other and avoid being judged for their treatment of their former spouses.
I'd be willing to wager the arguments justifying cheating on a sick spouse are coming mostly from those that dumped their spouse and don't want to be judged for their reasons for doing it. | |
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| and after moral failings, comes ...
Posted: 5/17/2008 4:30:57 PM | "I'd be willing to wager the arguments justifying cheating on a sick spouse are coming mostly from those that dumped their spouse and don't want to be judged for their reasons for doing it."
Exactly, if she is proud of what she did and feels justified why not talk about it?
I think what really happened is the OP's friend met someone and after that she tried to justify being with him. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:18:38 PM | Nobody should judge another for decisions that they make. My wife was sick for many years, the experts never could agree on what exactly she had, it was something in the auto-immune family where the body start attacking other parts of the body. Rheumatoid Arthritis, Lupus and Multiple Sclerosis all fall into this catagory. She was able to work until 1999. At first she wasn't bed ridden and able to do things for herself. I retired in 2000 to take care of her. We had some good times, went to Florida for 6 weeks and went on a cruise where she got to meet Suzanne Somers. That cruise was probably the turning point for her. She went down hill until they finally determined that her spine was deteriorating. She was going to spend the rest of her life in a wheel chair. We both felt terrible, she much more so because of the burden that her care put on me.
There were times that I thought I could not cope any more. What got me through that was remembering back to our wedding vowels, you know for better or for worse, sickness and health. I know this don't work for everybody but that is what did it for me. We were married for over 33 years and I always operated on my word is my bond. She finally got her release from this world and the pain in May of 2002. Do I miss her, sure. Would I want her back in that same condition, absolutely not. Everybody has to make their own decisions and others should simply butt out.
Personal note to sunshine: This really is not a response to your post. That is simply how I found this thread.-In The Wind | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 5:21:55 PM | I have to say I have mixed feelings about this subject.
I post as a man who was found to have Congestive Heart Falure 3 days after my wedding to my now EX!
3 Days! It hit her like a tone of bricks! Yet as I layed in the hospital she layed by my side, She stood by me as Drs told me this may get worse and it may not be repairable unless I had a Heart Transplant. Yes they also told me I may go for Yrs until any change would happen and that things could also improve.
So basically I was told 'I Dunno' its a craps game!
She stayed by me as I regained strength (at no fast pace and helpless as a kitten) and helped to do the simplest things for me. Many many simple things I just could not do at the time.
I understand her shock, fears, dismay, and feelings of helplessness as she watched the person she had vowed to, instantly change into a different person. I understand she never dreamed in a million years for this future. And for that I respect and applaude her actions.
But once I was more stable and not as helpless and actually transporting her to and from work and caregiving our child all day. She decided she was unhappy and found other men to talk with.
She left me using the excuse that my illness was too much for her and she needed her happiness. (which she had with a new man in under a weeks time)
So while I can very much see that she got a hard deal out of our marriage that she never expected, I still see that she failed her vows and most of all she failed her child who will never be able to understand why 'mommy' had to go find happiness. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:44:29 PM | If all of the shallow people in Dateland only knew the chances that one partner 'will' get sick, at some point in time, they might think twice about getting together, if they don't have love and truth in their hearts.
True Love and compassion, is more evident, i believe , in times of stress or sickness.
But today, alas, all one has to do is look at your mate funny and you may be out of there. That is because we are patterned, perhaps by parentage, or by society that things must always be happy happy.
Well, that is not always the case.
My best friend of all time has recently contracted a fatal disease. After a longtime marriage, quite loveless, that ended years ago, he met a wonderful caring woman over the internet four years ago, She got more than she bargained for. For caregivers are often referred to as the 'second' victims of the disease. Watching the changes in her once vital man have been difficult, to put it mildly.
But, althought things are difficult, and the future is uncertain, she loves my best friend with all of her heart, and has been nothing but a positive, soulful, caring inspiration to him. I cannot tell you how I admire this woman. Just when you think she is running out of steam, she reaches way down and pulls up great handfulls of caring and love. She doesn't just talk the talk. She walks the walk. She is a rare and precious bird.
A person who actually left a mate that they once loved, especially due to an unforseen illness, is no one I would want to know, date, or be around her energy.
tsk tsk......."kimbo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 6:58:03 PM |
OP: Your friend made her choices and must reap her just reward. This is my judgemental answer. We reap what we sow!
That sums it up in a nutshell.
My ex could never handle sickness either and when I was in a coma, he was out bowling with his now wife! It was when I came home I decided I had enough.
I had made excuses for him throughout the years but was hurting myself by doing so. I don't resent the fact he couldn't handle it. Some people are just shallow.
Vows are vows, I know I took my vows seriously, but it takes two to tango! JMO  | |
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| Re: Msg 59
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:29:27 PM | Well, I declare! If pot ever called kettle black ..... MacKevinized you are one of the most paranoid and fixated forum participants I have ever seen - anywhere!
McK readily admitted to judging people and quite clearly said that everybody does, so that includes him. So.....I dunno what you're trying to slam him about. Do you disagree with his statements? Then address the statements. When he starts a topic about himself, that would be the right time to cut loose on him.
I seldom agree with what McK says, his attitudes or how he states them, but one thing is that he's pretty consistent, so when he paints with a broad brush and paints himself, mostly he admits it. I don't see him as paranoid. Fixed, yes, his opinions are very strong and I've never seen him flip his position.
Not saying props to McK, just saying why I think RoyalPain is out of line and mistaken in her comment here. | |
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| Re: Msg 59
Posted: 5/17/2008 8:41:07 PM | | ^^^^ Well, he cut loose on me. I will give as good as I get. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:48:56 PM | | People have different level of tolerance to pain and discomfort. Sometimes, I becomes a flight for survival. One never knows where the truth lies, therefore one should not judge without knowing the exact conditions that lead somebody to make a specific choice. Walk in a person shoes, before judging. | |
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| I couldn't turn my back.....
Posted: 5/18/2008 5:38:07 AM | The situation I was in was that my husband had finally agreed to give me a divorce and a week later he woke up and was paralyzed from the waist down. When the ambulance got us to the hospital, he was xrayed and they found that a tumor had compressed his spinal cord. He was diagnosed with primary lung/metastatic bone cancer. At that point, the years of heartache he put the kids and I through didn't really matter anymore...there was no way I could turn my back on him. So for the last 7 months of his life I became his nurse, as well as working and raising 3 kids. But I now can look in the mirror knowing that I honored every one of my wedding vows (sickness, health, richer, poorer, better and worse, till death we did part). It was my choice to stay, but that's the type of person I am. I'm not judging anyone for choosing their enjoyment over becoming a caretaker..to each his own. I'm just saying that I made the choice to stay and will never regret overlooking my enjoyment for becoming his caretaker. (I apologize if this posted twice...it didn't show up the first time I hit 'post')  | |
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