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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/21/2008 9:00:40 PM | FYI Wacko, I did NOT "edit" the OPs post....I proposed exchanging pronouns (if you don't know what those are...consult a dictionary) as a means of demonstrating the hypocracy being displayed.
Where was your indignation when Mac wrote:
Message 56
My guess is that those asking (more like demanding) us not to make judgments are attempting to justify their own selfish treatment towards other's in their lives and fear being seen as unwanted. Implying that anyone who didn't join his lynch mob was refusing solely on the basis that refraining from making a judgement they were themselves undoubtedly guilty of their own selfish treatment of loved ones in their lives?
While we're at it....you have yet to clarify (via your crystal ball) how it is that you knew that the women was living high on the hog on HIS exclusive property, propping her feet on HIS exclusive furnishings and sucking up HIS hard earned benefits. Both yourself and Mac have STILL refused to comment on the issue of hypocracy demonstrated by condemning "selfish" behavior in THIS thread.....and yet praising it in other threads.
I do however agree with you on 1 point. She has a track record of only living up to her promises for "double digit years". And this differs from men......HOW? Indeed, the answer for her is simple......don't make ANY promises......not expecting any in return has always been a given. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:57:58 PM | --- NOTE -- At this point we're quibbling syntax and attitudes instead of the original post. This thread may be closed at any moment ---
BooBooMa -- When you change any words, that's editing. When you change the story, the points being argued are no longer the same. Better to just start a new thread if that's the issue you want to argue.
I have no prob with Mac's Msg 56. He didn't declare a law, he just gave his opinion, clearly indicted by the words "I guess". I'm not going to guess what he guessed at when someone else posted their opinion. That's a pretty weak trail to fry someone for. Besides, he didn't raise the idea of lynch mobs, you did. Mac speaks for himself, and when asserting someone else's concept usually cites the source. I got no prob with that.
I have no crystal ball, and I don't want yours. Show me the post where I said she was living high on the hog and we'll go from there. Neither I nor Mac condemned selfish behavior in this thread. Mac said he agreed with a certain definition of selfish. I said nothing at all about selfish behavior. I see there's a thread about selfish behavior, but I have not posted in that thread thus far.
As for the woman at issue's track record, no one said that it differs from men. Why would you think that it differs? | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/21/2008 11:42:19 PM | And I said the pedophiles and serial killers were dishonoring those wedding vows and good reasons to dissolve the relationship.
So essentially your initial absolutist premis was false?
I guess you didn't see that part.
Bad guess!
What is the sense of making a vow if it's not absolute?
None. Good point. Best therefore not to do it since no one can predict the future and all humans are imperfect, yes even you! The marriage ceremony is therefore a proven farce and a futile attempt to contract "love" - how absurd, though even more absurd to rely upon it.
Love is fleeting and if it should possibly last a lifetime (which it rarely does) it won't be on the basis of "vows" taken but moments shared. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/22/2008 12:38:05 AM | Luv2Ski -- Dude...you're being quibblesome and deliberately thick.
Mac has already pointed out that a criminal such as a pedophile or serial killer would be dishonoring the wedding vows and thus breaking the union. That's a no-fault on the part of the person marriage to such a criminal.
The OP's scenario shows the caretaker as desiring to break the vows for reasons that are in direct contradiction to her vows. It is that intent that is causing doubt and disdain from would-be suitors.
You ask why marry when people are imperfect and fallable? The vows do not declare people to be perfect. A marriage does not grant perfection on a couple. Indeed, those who expect a piece of paper to magically safeguard their relationship are living a fantasy. It is the concepts behind that paper and the ceremonies and kinship involved that are important. Yes, the standards are high, but living up to the standards is what ennobles us. Love may be fleeting, but the relationship does not have to self-destruct because of a lapse of romance, heath, fortunes or bad weather.
This is where the line has been drawn on this topic. Shall people stand tall and meet the very standards they swore to, or shall they falter and list any of a host of ills as the cause of their lack of resolve?
If they should fail, yes, we understand life can be hard, but don't expect a reward and a pat on the back. Expect people to know and adjust their behavior toward you accordingly. Failure does not mean the end of your chances at happiness. Failure means you know what doesn't work for you. So the OP's friend should fess up and instead of wailing at the men who leave, she should be happy they didn't walk away when she was in need. Okay, so her road will be tougher. Now how about offering ways for her to rebuild her life and find men that won't mind her prior history instead of passing out rose-colored glasses and sending her off into the mine field?
At least Mac has the courtesy to tell her she's in a mine field instead of sugar-coating it. Can you offer her a way out? Or are you just here to yell at Mac for alerting her to the danger ahead? | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/22/2008 5:29:29 AM | None. Good point. Best therefore not to do it since no one can predict the future and all humans are imperfect, yes even you! The marriage ceremony is therefore a proven farce and a futile attempt to contract "love" - how absurd, though even more absurd to rely upon it.
Love is fleeting and if it should possibly last a lifetime (which it rarely does) it won't be on the basis of "vows" taken but moments shared.
Arguing a point based on thinking all humans are imperfect is an empty argument in my mind. It's just a way to avoid talking about the issue at hand and dismissing the argument at hand.
Your argument says no one should never seek a long term relationship because no one is perfect.
I can and do predict the future in that I realize how some people will react. I can predict that I will be accused of leading a lynch mob, lying, and making judgments.
I did marry a woman that had depression show up soon after. She had 2 children and I was the sole provider for 13 years because she wanted to be a stay at home mom for her kids. I left the house at 4 am and got home usually after 8 pm to make ends meet. I stayed because I vowed to even though part of her behavior was to deride me for not being able to draw the income she expected me to.
Even though I saw my own health failing, I did it for as long as I could and when I had no ability to continue she finally got a job and divorced me because she 'didn't sign up for that'. She expected that I would fight the divorce because her family was extremely wealthy and thought I wanted the inheritance but she, her lawyer and family were totally surprised when I said she could have her divorce.
Being that we only had 35K in assets and I had become a ward of the state due to being in a coma she had to pay half of that to me and she had to pay for the hospitalization from the time she abandoned me (taking those assets with her) till the time the divorce was finalized, about a year.
So I do believe people can and do take vows seriously because I did it. I know others that have done it too and I know others that have left their marriages because they didn't get what they thought they deserved from it. I can truly say those that make vows and keep them are much happier with themselves than those that use excuses to abandon them.
Can you offer her a way out?
I was wondering if anyone would be astute enough to ask this question.
This woman has seriously hurt someone, her sick husband. I think he is the only one that can give forgiveness after she acknowledges what she did to him.
BooBooMa -- When you change any words, that's editing. When you change the story, the points being argued are no longer the same. Better to just start a new thread if that's the issue you want to argue.
Actually she didn't edit the original post, just interjected a lot of BS to make her points that have more to do with her attitude, that men suck, than the topic at hand.
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/22/2008 9:35:13 AM | Six pages of this ..... my head hurts.
I have “walked” ...and will not bore all of you with the details. ( who needs more examples of Human Misery?) Death and disease is not fun. We all will get their eventually.
A suggestion : Start talking about how YOU would react to this situation, because in the end that is
what you are revealing, yes ? This is a date site. You are stating how you would react to, or would expect a partner to react to, this kind of situation. That makes this thread very educational.
I will not judge, any choices the OPs friend ,or any who have posted here. It really doesn’t matter to
them what i, a stranger on a date site, thinks, does it ? Instead I’ll simply say what i think
i would do when faced with these dark days again.
You never leave a buddy behind. You never abandon a friend in need. You NEVER turn your back on Family. There are ALWAYS “Special Cases”. They should not be confused as excuses for future
behavior. I do not think that one has to take vows to realize that we all owe the people in our lives
Locality. Our ability to rationalize bad behavior is limitless. There is no need to prove this by citing
examples of Special Cases.
IF you disagree, i will not argue. I have my way of looking at Life. You have yours. I may choose to
avoid you and your way of thinking, but I will listen to it first. The joke of it is, if i haven’t run from you before i have heard your views and you are hit by that bus that is waiting for all of us, I’ll stick around and help you back to health or make sure your last days are not spent alone. Dumb, huh ? Yeah, but that is what friends do for friends....in my little world.
In yours, you do what you wish, again, no judgment on my part. I can not live by your rules/ethics and be happy. I assume you could not live by mine. Yeah, i admit it. I LIKE the idea that we should take care of each other. I am happier living that way. It may be selfish of me, but i can not change. I’ll assume you can’t either. 
Sorry to interrupt. Please go back to the bashing. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:32:07 PM | | Yes Esad I agree with what you say..somewhat..but have to add people in glass houses should not throw stones. Until I saw the other part of this world where people struggled daily just to find food I thought I was one of those persons that would help no matter what...what I found was that you can only do so much as a human. You cannot save them all. We have our limits even with family. You can only do what you are capable of. To call this bad behavoir is just us judging something we really don't know anything about 'cept a few sentences on a dating site. I cannot also help but noticing that the majority of the nay sayers for this womans predicament are ..hmmm male..I as a female would not ever.. and I mean that..ever want to be a burden to anyone..I could not imagine doing that to someone I loved. I have a plan and pact already in place with my oldest daughter if this situation should ever arise. Its just who I am. As is the OP's friend. Mere humans all of us... | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:29:19 PM | QUOTE: "As her friend, I understood her dilemma and supported her decision, while other friends did not, they judged her and condemmed her for deciding to leave and to top it off, her partner eventually decided to leave the matrimonial home and go into a centre that cared for people with the disease."
Gosh yes, that would be very tough.
BUT, isnt that where the line "for better or for worse. during sickness or health. till death do us part." comes in??
This kind of situation is augmented by our modren push-button, get what i want when i want it, divorce crazed generation.
My mother went through such an ordeal.
My father suffered a stroke some time ago. And his condition slowly deteriorated with time.
But Mom stayed by his side. Even as he became delusional, and needed assistance to merley get from one room to the other.
And he passed away in his sleep one night, with her at his side. 
But he had made sure that with his retirement and insurance that she would be able to live a comfortable life should he pass on before her.
THAT'S what marriage REAL marriage and true love are all about kiddies.
Not just ditch him when he outlives his "usefullness".
Like we do so often in this divorce crazed modren society.
In fact, her 80th birthday is next week.
And i'm so glad she's still around to remind me of the "greatest generation".  | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/24/2008 10:40:03 PM | I am thinking of how I would react if a man I was starting to date told me that he ditched his wife because he couldn't handle it when the "going got to tough to handle". One of the jobs I have is working in a care home, and I see the difficulty that spouses, daughters, sons, etc. have of putting their loved one in 24/7 care. There are resources, support groups, and social workers for caregivers who will guide them in what they can do for themselves to handle the extreme stress of being a full time caregiver, or even dealing with the guilt of putting their loved on in care, and what to do to nurture themselves. My mother had a terrible accident last year, and I did what I could to support her while in hosp. and out. Had she continued to need assitance with her daily activities long term, I would not have been able to help her, as I still have one child in school, and she is 2 hours away. At the most, she needed someone to assist her with bathing for safety purposes for about 2 weeks after family support left, and a housekeeper for a month after that. If it had meant putting her in a long term care facility, I would have bit the bullet and moved in and been the caregiver..because she cared for and supported me unselfishly for 18 years. Not everyone is strong enough to do what we say we would do, or have done to care for a loved one. However, that being said, there are resources available( care aides to assist in the home, respite care, housekeepers, counselling, etc) for caregivers who have a hard time coping.
So, would I get serious with someone who only wants to be around for the good times, and who would exit when things got tough? Nope!
If the shoe were on the other foot, would your friend have been happy if she had been the sick one, and he got fed up?
Treat others the way you want to be treated...what goes around comes around.
Enough said,
Heavenscent1 | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 12:34:56 AM |
However, that being said, there are resources available( care aides to assist in the home, respite care, housekeepers, counselling, etc) for caregivers who have a hard time coping
Not all areas have these resources, and often those being taken care do not wish a stranger assisting them. The CLSC in Quebec gives some limited aid, told me that my mother needed to be in a home for medical reasons and that we - my sister and I, were enabling her to avoid that. It's a catch-22 - she should be there, she doesn't want to go.
She keeps falling down and breaking bones, having mini heart attacks. What is going to end up happening is she will either become really ill or seriously injured and then the hospital will force into the 1st home ( not necessarily the best home) that comes available. In Quebec, she could land in one where the staff does not even speak English. We are now trying to talk her into a home that she picks - we have also had to harden our hearts a little, and not be as readily available for her.
I still hold to not judging someone doing caretaking, where I do not know all the circumstances - it is all you can do sometimes, just to survive being the caretaker. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 3:44:28 AM |
I still hold to not judging someone doing caretaking, where I do not know all the circumstances - it is all you can do sometimes, just to survive being the caretaker.
I really think that judging someone without knowing circimstances is dumb but we are judging the choices someone made. We only know a few circumstances but what this woman did to her husband will be judged. To ignore that act because she did that other stuff for 'double digit years' is, well, ignorant.
Your stories of taking care of your parents will be judged too. I judge your actions in that very frustrating situation as highly honorable. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 6:01:38 AM |
That's what you're not getting, MacK. It's not your place to judge.
When someone posts something on a forum and asks what people think, they will get judged when they respond. Everyone on here is judging. Some are judging Mack for his remarks. That is like calling the kettle black. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 12:53:03 PM | I got sick with an adult onset genetic problem...he left me....
I got better by natural means...he never came back. Moral to the story...if he cannot hang in there through the troubled times..He is not worth it!
And the men I date...if they cannot handle the things I have to avoid....they are not worth my valuable time.
I have a lot to offer...but most do not want to take the time to find out...I find at my age (57)..if the woman is not a size 2 to 12...financially well...the guy looks elsewhere...his loss! | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 4:22:45 PM | In spite of what is said here, discussed, opinions given, etc., the real problem with OP’s friend is what people (generally) will say and think that know about her recent relationship history. Because people judge. Right or wrong, it is a fact, and is something that she will continue to run into trouble with for as long as people remember. Yes, she could lie and not mention it, but for obvious reasons, that’s not really a good solution.
There was a young married couple quite a few years back, friends of one of my bands, that used to come out regularly to our gigs. He got MS (I believe it was) and quite a few years later, when he was becoming severely disabled, she left him, dissolved the marriage, and went her own way. He lived a few more years, finding care in the professional institutions, then passed away – and very emotionally alone, as well. She still comes out to see the band and as entertainers, when she does, we are ‘trained’ to be polite and not show how we really feel – but we all feel the same way down inside, myself included.
One day a few years back, she was out at the club with some of her girlfriends, sitting over at the other side of the club from where I sat. I overheard a table of guys talking next to me, guys that I’d seen before and that seemed to know some of the women sitting at this woman’s table. One guy was remarking about how pretty this woman was to his friends (she really was a very attractive woman) and was asking his friends if anyone knew who she was ...
One of his friends spoke up: “Yeah, we know her.”
Another interrupted: “Yeah ... nice woman. Just don’t get sick.”
That’s what OP’s friend will deal with for a long time. And there’s very little that can be done about it. Inevitably, we hold the responsibility for what we do.
cdn guy | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 4:52:34 PM | | Cdn ...nice to know that you gossip...and that is all it is when you only get one side of the story..In life there is always at least two sides. I really just want to do a primal scream here....I cannot abide people that think that they are better than others and that "they" would always do the right thing...How dare you judge someone elses behavoir. How could you not have empathy for someone in a difficult situation. AND if you all go back and look at the original post you will see it for what it is. It is a cry for help not to be judged but some wise advice needed and also a pat on the back for the person that has to make these chioces...so gratefull not to be in OPs shoes anymore. And to the rest of you that gave this OP's friend a chit kicken...hope ya all have your ducks in a row...Oh and will also add again it seems the men have more difficulty with this womans choice......We women are not here to take care of you..we are not your Momma's... | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/25/2008 6:10:23 PM | iwanttobehugged, you are so right.....and most of the men who jump up and run aren't prize packages of wealth and health themselves...... | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 4:41:43 AM |
Cdn ...nice to know that you gossip...and that is all it is when you only get one side of the story..In life there is always at least two sides. I really just want to do a primal scream here....I cannot abide people that think that they are better than others and that "they" would always do the right thing...How dare you judge someone elses behavoir. How could you not have empathy for someone in a difficult situation. AND if you all go back and look at the original post you will see it for what it is. It is a cry for help not to be judged but some wise advice needed and also a pat on the back for the person that has to make these chioces...so gratefull not to be in OPs shoes anymore. And to the rest of you that gave this OP's friend a chit kicken...hope ya all have your ducks in a row...Oh and will also add again it seems the men have more difficulty with this womans choice......We women are not here to take care of you..we are not your Momma's...
Thanks for the judgments here It just demonstrates the hypocracy of those that some will portray to hold themselves up as above the norm.
I don't think this was a cry for help as much as it was a cry for pity. The lady was not asking for help, she was asking how people could judge her after she left a sick man.
I don't recall anyone giving the OP a hard time except for someone pointing out that the op and her 'friend' may be one and the same.
I didn't see you giving the op a hard time about her one sided story and calling that gossip.
To me, it's obvious you feel you're better than the man you felt the need to admonish and don't want a lover that may get sick.
We men are not here to appease you and fall into your hypocritical judgments. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 7:51:24 AM | Dear OP unless someone has walked in your shoes, they have NO RIGHT to judge you. Even then, their situation can be different!
Did any of these people who judged you offer to help take care of your hubby when he was w/ you to give you a break? Did they lend financial support? Did they help w/ your job, home, kids & hubby?
Sounds like you should be APPLAUDED for your years of self-lessness, rather than get ripped a new one for being honest & brave enough to admit you were burnt out | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 8:16:50 AM |
One of his friends spoke up: “Yeah, we know her.”
Another interrupted: “Yeah ... nice woman. Just don’t get sick.”
That’s what OP’s friend will deal with for a long time. And there’s very little that can be done about it. Inevitably, we hold the responsibility for what we do.
cdn guy
Good story, cdn*guy, very well told.
The person who attacked your post missed your point, I think. It's not a matter of gossip. It's the fact that you are accountable for your actions, and people do hold you to that. Suppose the woman in your story had let her own child die of gross neglect... spent a few years in the pen for it, got out, was still good looking. Wouldn't friends warn friends not to consider her matrimony material? | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 9:41:08 AM | Both for the sick person and for the one who is not life becomes so
difficult that to comment on this or judge either one would be trite. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:39:14 AM | | I believe that part of the marriage vows state, "...in sickness and in health." She broke those vows. I don't blame the men for Not wishing to pursue a relationship with her. Her actions show she does not have the depth of charecter required to stay committed when things get rough. Why waste their time on someone like that? I certainly wouldn't. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:42:45 AM |
The Objectivist ethics holds that human good does not require human sacrifices and cannot be achieved by the sacrifice of anyone to anyone. It holds that the rational interests of men do not clash—that there is no conflict of interests among men who do not desire the unearned, who do not make sacrifices nor accept them, who deal with one another as traders, giving value for value.
It is good to see another Objectivist posting. Rand would argue that it is not a sacrifice to remain loyal to a loved one who is ill, rather she would assert that such action is an affirmation of one's values and a very selfish act. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:47:31 AM |
LOL - I gave you examples of situations where your absolutist premis was clearly false. They're not all that hypothetical - if you read the papers you'll see it happens quite a lot. Lot's of people enter into marriages and then find out that not everything was as it seemed at the time.
You did no such thing. You cited two examples which are invalid as in each case, the husband had already violated the vows. Molesting children and beating one's wife are violations of the marriage vows. A woman is morally freem to leave any husband who has already dishonored his vows. So, you proved nothing except that you are not very good at rational argumentation. | |
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| He is sick, she left him...
Posted: 5/26/2008 11:05:28 AM |
So essentially your initial absolutist premis was false?
First, the word is spelled premise, not premis. Second, no, his premise was not false. His premise was that violation of marriage vows is wrong. Thus, the only valid reason for abandoning one's spouse is that one's spouse has already violated his vows. One is not obligated to uphold a breeched contract.
None. Good point. Best therefore not to do it since no one can predict the future and all humans are imperfect, yes even you! The marriage ceremony is therefore a proven farce and a futile attempt to contract "love" - how absurd, though even more absurd to rely upon it.
So, lack of perfection is a valid basis for not making vows? This implies that you never feel obligated to keep vows as you are imperfect. You have just made yourself undesirable to all rational women on this site since no rational woman would ever want a man who sees no sense in vows and uses his own lack of perfection as an excuse for breaking them. Marriage is not an attempt to contract love. It is a solemn exchange of vows uniting a man and a woman as one. If I and a woman I love exchange such vows we are putting our personal honor up as collateral that we will keep them. One keeps vows because one values one's honor, not because of the law. Likewise, I don't commit murder because it is immoral, not because it is illegal.
Luv_2_Ski, you really need to take some lessons in basic logic before attempting to debate anything in public. You are embarrassing yourself. | |
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