|
|
|
|
|
| |
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 1:11:21 AM | OK, Ezz ...
Although my Spidey Sense is telling me that you are baiting a trap with those questions, I'll take a stab at offering up my responsive opinion anyway:
Prejudice, Discrimination, and Racism.
Prejudice is an attitude; a mental posture; a belief or collection of beliefs created and maintained in connection with an object without a rational, objective, and critically-observed basis to support it.
Discrimination is the exercise of favorable or unfavorable discretion -- in action (as it has the intransitive verb "discriminate" as its root) -- for or against one group, to the detriment or benefit of another, on the basis of some group attribute or attributes.
Racism is the maintenance, abetting, incitement or facilitation of prejudice or discrimination on the basis of race.
Some disregard the aspect of "prejudice" espoused in the definition of "racism" proffered above, and more narrowly define racism as a practice of discrimination by one group against another for the purposes of facilitating or maintaining subjugation.
Those holding that view have argued that there can be no Black racism (in the sense of discrimination by one group against another for the purposes of subjugation or maintaining subjugation) because Blacks lack adequate power and control over the nation's operational resources (e.g., educational, financial, legal, correctional, etc.) to subjugate Whites (or any other group). In other words one cannot be a racist unless he has the power to subjugate.
As to whether prejudice is an inborn personality trait, I would argue that it is not; that, fresh out of the womb, we have no sense of danger, mortality, safety, superiority, or distrust or any other perceptions that we can conclusively characterize as "prejudice." Our attitudes towards one another are almost exclusively learned through personal experience, or training by others. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 2:05:47 AM | The government subjugates all who are less than fortunate. Or should I say the government does this to all in one way or another.
Those holding that view have argued that there can be no Black racism (in the sense of discrimination by one group against another for the purposes of subjugation or maintaining subjugation) because Blacks lack adequate power and control over the nation's operational resources (e.g., educational, financial, legal, correctional, etc.) to subjugate Whites (or any other group). In other words one cannot be a racist unless he has the power to subjugate.
Blacks lack adequate power
I can't agree with this, we have a lot of people holding offices in government and owning businessess. I can't argue the point from maybe 40 years ago.
I certainly don't have control over the nation. Sounds like an excuse to excuse yourself while you perpetuate hate.
Blacks lack adequate power and control over the nation's operational resources (e.g., educational, financial, legal, correctional, etc.) to subjugate Whites (or any other group). In other words one cannot be a racist unless he has the power to subjugate.
Excuse me, it isn't just for blacks anymore and it really never was. Oppression has always been unbias. By the blanket statements it would lead you to believe all white people have control or influence over the nation, it's operational resources, education, financial, legal and correctional powers or lack thereof. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 2:30:47 AM | Lily. I agree with you. Racism is an ugly sentiment no matter who harbors it and no matter whom they direct it against.
Institutionalized racism is a different matter. When White people seek to draw a parallel between Black (or Brown) vs. White racism, they conveniently forget that
the attitude of racism is a personal evil, while the institutions of racism are matters of public policy.
We can all choose to hate each other and shun each other if we wish, and we can do that based on whatever f*cked up ideology we happen to have been indoctrinated into. That's a matter of choice.
HOWEVER, we cannot allow the institutions that affect the public welfare to be influenced in any way by those attitudes--be they governmental, or privately owned when the public depends on those privately owned institutions for necessary or equal accommodation.
I can deplore racist attitudes of every color (and I do), but I cannot force people to change them. Nor would I want to try. HOWEVER, I can, and we all should, do all that we can to ensure that we destroy the last vestiges of institutionalized racism. Otherwise, no one's kids will ever get a fair shake. The pendulum will just swing around knocking over kids from first one group and then another until our kids all wind up in another Bosnia. So let's just stop the damn thing.
One vestige of racism that was once used to keep Black people from voting was to equate them with monkeys in order to demoralize them so that they wouldn't organize themselves and vote. Using such images in an election campaign is a dirty trick right out of the institutional racist's playbook. We can't let that kind of poisoning of the well just go by. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 3:13:47 AM | Black people are looking for anything to come along that they can use the "infamous race card" on. All you have to do, is look around...it's everywhere! Come on folks, all we're doing is giving them something to fuel their anger with. It's not raciest, until a black person says it is(which is every dam time). We have jokes thrown at Caucasian all the time...do you hear much about it being a raciest issue? Hell no!! So, the issue is with the African Americans, just looking for something to **** about.  | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 4:25:17 AM |
Black people are looking for anything to come along that they can use the "infamous race card" on.
So you're leading with a racial generalization.
All you have to do, is look around...it's everywhere!
*looks around* I don't know about where you are, but it doesn't happen all the time where I am.
Come on folks, all we're doing is giving them something to fuel their anger with.
Yes, being racist fuels people to be angry.
It's not raciest, until a black person says it is(which is every dam time).
Uh huh, except there was a heck of a lot of white people in here saying that it was racist before the first black person posted.
We have jokes thrown at Caucasian all the time...do you hear much about it being a raciest issue?
Well yes actually. I'm just curious, are you now arguing that "they do it to" is a great defense for caucasian racist behavior?
Hell no!! So, the issue is with the African Americans, just looking for something to **** about
Oh really? the "issue is with the AFrican Americans" is it? Tell me, any other issues you have with this population you want to tell us about? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 10:04:02 AM | My personal opinion is that the t-shirt is racist, and I think it was intended to be. But who knows, as I am not in the owner's head. I think once people point out to him that it has offended blacks, he should pull them off the market, if he really cares about not hurting people.
I didn't know until reading this thread that monkeys were used to portray blacks, so of course something that goes back to that would be racist.
Thanks for telling your story. What you experienced was racism and it was wrong.
Guess who they learned it from? People who looked like us.
I do have an issue with this statement! Basically you are saying that white people are responsible for their own racism, and also for all black racism! Why is it that whites should be accountable for their own actions, but blacks shouldn't? Isn't that saying that somehow blacks are inferior, and that they can't control and aren't responsible for their own thoughts/emotions/actions? I mean in that issue with Dixie there were black ADULTS throwing rocks at her!
I really agree/respect everything that you have said up to that point Ace. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 2:31:16 PM | I wonder how many of you know anything about Curious George, or have read the stories that feature him. Obviously, the people who are expounding racism on the basis that George is a monkey, haven't.
Curious George is an adorable cartoon monkey. He isn't identifiable as any particular type of monkey. He's smart, mischivous, and has been granted all the attributes of a human. He doesn't have a high, broad forehead, a flat nose, heavy lips, or course hair that is usually associated with insulting characterizations of black physical features. The books have stories that are designed to teach children life lessons.
Here is an exerpt from the official web site:
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/features/cgsite/
"Make Curious George your mascot! Find printable fliers, event suggestions, logos, reading lists, and more in our comprehensive resource center, created in conjunction with the American Library Association. "
So what many of you are saying is that any organization that has blacks shouldn't use this book or Curious George as a mascot because it would offend those of African heritage. It is interesting that the American Library Association doesn't see using Curious George as politically incorrect.
Had the bar owner truly meant to make a racist statement, there are many more pictures of monkeys that would have been far more explicit in their meaning.
If anything, I would think Mr. Obama would be pleased to be compared with such a lovable, enduring, and sometimes very smart, little character. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/29/2008 5:37:12 PM | Mascots are something you adopt for yourself, not label on somebody else.
If they'd used a slug or a troll, or a toad for Obama '08, i'd say it's childish, but I wouldn't say it was Racist.
Once again, the use of Monkeys to portray blacks has a very racist history. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 12:11:07 PM |
It's not raciest, until a black person says it is(which is every dam time).
That is not true at all, I am 100% white and I believed that this was racist the second I read it, I did not need a person of color (or any other white person for that matter) to tell me this was racist. How did I know? Through BOOKS. You know, those things with knowledge in them? i take offence to the idea that those who feel the shirt was racist just jumped on some sort of anti-racist band wagon because some black people must have said it was racist. Give me a break, i don't need anyone of color to tell me that this is racist, it should be common knowledge.
We have jokes thrown at Caucasian all the time...do you hear much about it being a raciest issue?
Please post an example that you have seen in the media, such as this one, and I will be happy to claim it as racist just so all the white people that keep whining about their own mistreatment on here will feel like they are being treated as equal.
Curious George is an adorable cartoon monkey. He isn't identifiable as any particular type of monkey. He's smart, mischivous, and has been granted all the attributes of a human. He doesn't have a high, broad forehead, a flat nose, heavy lips, or course hair that is usually associated with insulting characterizations of black physical features. The books have stories that are designed to teach children life lessons.
Do you honestly think that the guy who made this shirt was really trying to portray Obama as cute, mischivous and clever?? Come on you can't possibly be that naive!
It is interesting that the American Library Association doesn't see using Curious George as politically incorrect.
Reading the books to children is not racist, we are not trying to be so sensitive that a person of color cannot LOOK at a monkey or read a childrens book featuring a monkey. But I am sure the lirary association might have a problem if the librarian starting using the book in comparison to the black children, as the shop owner did. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:51:08 PM | You know, it is really interesting to see how far people will reach to justify their own unadmitted racism.
We were all raised in a racist culture, and for anyone to dismiss a charge of racism out of hand is just ludicrous. You can't kid a kidder, and we're all racist enough to know it when we see it. Cute little monkey my *ass. And y'all know it.
It is so much easier to say, "hmmm ... maybe so," and then make an effort to see it from the other person's viewpoint than it is to degrade oneself with such ridiculous denials and evasions. --as if one was still a little kid trying to put one over on mom & dad. Puhleeese!!!
Somebody took me to task the other day for comments about my own fear of becoming disabled one day. It sounded to them like I was disparaging the disabled.
Yes, I resented it, and I must admit that I snapped back. But you know what? I'm still thinking it over because if it's true, it means I've got some more growing up to do.
What a shock!!!!!!!!! OMG, I might not be so perfact after all! O ... M ... G!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't we all have some growing up to do?
The question is, do we have the character and dignity to do it? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:32:00 PM |
We were all raised in a racist culture, and for anyone to dismiss a charge of racism out of hand is just ludicrous. You can't kid a kidder, and we're all racist enough to know it when we see it. Cute little monkey my *ass. And y'all know it.
Racism is learned at home, not in the culture. That poster that K1ngmaker(hope I have the name right) manged to rip a new one (not that he made it hard lol) Didn't learn racism from your culture or his culture he learned it on his daddy's knee or his momma's.
Two kids of different races that don't learn this behaviour at home will play together with never a racist thought entering either kids head.
Ace the day we quit growing is or should be the day in which we die. Life is a learning process.
I am going to have to check back when I have time and catch up on all I've missed.
The shirt is NOT racist though, it is an image only and has no value other than what value we attribute to it. Now if you ask if the person selling those shirts was USING the image to get across a racist message, well now you have a whole new ball of string to bat around.
People really should stop focusing on the symbol and expend more energy eradicating the source of the problem. Mandatory sterilization of anyone that wants "the south to rise again" or is a member of the Black Panthers and so on? That seems a bit over the top even if effective, so I'll hold out for education, it is slower but with some forethought will have the same effect, since illogic cannot forever withstand reason. And let's face it racism is about as illogical as anyone can get. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:26:23 PM | so being that you have experienced so much racism personally in your life you would think that you could have some sensitivity and recognise that this is NOT a joke.
So you still haven't realized that her wording of it being just a joke was a statement of what the caucasians would be told to take it as if it had been perpetrated on them? Are you just a poor reader or blinded by your own bigotry?
If it were in a well known racist comment pointed in the direction of a white person i for one would defend that as well.
So you admit you defend racism IF it is against whites. That is all i've been arueing against throughout this thread. Affirmative action IS racism against whites and one of the racist actions you defend. I don't defend racism in any form and would prefer nobody did. I accept people as equal human beings no matter what their lineage or gender or wealth, priveledge,title, physical or mental condition why will you not? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:33:53 PM | It's not just mommy and daddy, though their influence is undeniable. But kids also learn things from older kids, and a white kid will certainly get the message when the neighbor kids call him a n*gg*rlover or some other racist slur. --not to mention the racist jokes that suck kids in when their parents aren't looking. Families occur in a milieu, not in a vacuum, and that milieu also has its influence.
Symbols aren't just interpreted, they are also intentionally created and used. So, to say that interpretation is only in the eye of the beholder gives ill-intended people who try to hide behind purported ambiguity an unwarranted pass. People who display symbols interpret them when thenever they use them. The people who took offense read the message that was most likely intended given the context in which the symbol occurred. A lack of clarification lends credence to the claim that the ugly intention behind the symbol was read correctly.
But I do agree that racism is illogical and that education is the best course of action for dealing with it. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:36:51 PM | So Dudley,
What's your alternative to AA that puts a stop to the institutionalized racism that preceded it?
If the best we can do is equalize the impact of injustice across all segments of the population, that's still pretty damned poor, don't you think?
So let's do better. What do you propose?
You say that you're against racism in any form, but passively accepting racist practices merely abets them. So, since you feel such urgency about denouncing the injustices of AA, you must have some idea of a system that would work better.
Or are you only against racism when it bites White people?
| |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:46:50 PM | | Come on now. The shirt is racist, cause it was made with a racist intent. Plain and simple. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:12:15 PM | Guess who they learned it from? People who looked like us.
I do have an issue with this statement! Basically you are saying that white people are responsible for their own racism, and also for all black racism! Why is it that whites should be accountable for their own actions, but blacks shouldn't? Isn't that saying that somehow blacks are inferior, and that they can't control and aren't responsible for their own thoughts/emotions/actions? I mean in that issue with Dixie there were black ADULTS throwing rocks at her!
I was reminding her about how it started because she was White. If I were speaking to a Black person I would remind her about how undignified and useless it is to repay evil for evil--tempting though it might be when one's own children are still being oppressed.
Dixie wasn't a bully and didn't deserve that, but for her to discount the context in which her harrassment occurred leaves her without any basis for compassion for them.
How sad it must be to be an adult of so little dignity that you would throw rocks at a little girl. What happened to reduce those people to such a miserable state?
And what happened to the fellow who printed up that T shirt to reduce him to such a miserable and undignified state? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:38:25 PM | What's your alternative to AA that puts a stop to the institutionalized racism that preceded it?
There is no perfect answer to this and racism will always exist as long as people are different and people will always be different. I do know that creating more racism or "justifying" racism of one segment of the population over another is not an answer and is actually worse than doing nothing. As far as i'm concerned if government has a policy of promoting racism that is institutionalized racism. The only thing that can be done is return to having all equal under the law and having it illegal to not hire or promote someone on the grounds of race, religion, gender,etc etc. The best man for the job not the whitest not the blackest not the cripple or the whatever just the best man for the job.
If the best we can do is equalize the impact of injustice across all segments of the population, that's still pretty damned poor, don't you think?
I agree that would be poor but i don't agree that AA equalizes anything.
You say that you're against racism in any form, but passively accepting racist practices merely abets them. So, since you feel such urgency about denouncing the injustices of AA, you must have some idea of a system that would work better.
Why would my denouncing racism disguised as AA mean i have any better idea than you would? You denounce racism but have not given a better idea than AA yet call on me for an answer because i am against AA wich you also said is unjust. I will at least admit i see no way to end racism and that creating more racism is not and will not work.
Or are you only against racism when it bites White people?
Yes that's it exactly! If i am against AA i must be a white supremacist/pro anarchist the same as you by the same reconing must be a Back Panther or some other anti white/pro anarchy group. AA is far more than black and white or whites against everyone else. It promotes gender bias, racism, religious bigotry, and other social diseases. The true reason for the existence of AA is not equality rather purchasing votes from select groups.
With the mixed ancestry most of us have in North America racism only causes us to hate ourselves our families and our friends. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:39:59 PM |
Do you honestly think that the guy who made this shirt was really trying to portray Obama as cute, mischivous and clever?? Come on you can't possibly be that naive!
I am not a psychic or mindreader. The bar owner said he did not mean it as racist. He said he thought the monkey looked like Mr. Obama because of the ears.
I am equally as ready to accept the perception of the bar owner as I am those who protested the shirts. To him, it was not racist. To them, it was. To me, because of what the bar owner said, it did not seem that it was intended as racial slur.
So far, not a single thing has been presented in this thread to indicate that the bar owner meant anything but what he said. He did not reprint the shirts, his intention (so he said) was to give the money to charity, and he used a cute, little, humanized, cartoon monkey instead of a real picture of an ape or monkey.
Many people like drama. Until I see proof to the contrary, I prefer to believe that a mountain was made out of a molehill. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:58:17 PM | Uh if AA is not institutionalized racism what is it?
This form of racism will only serve to drive unsuccessful uneducated people to embrace more racist views, to see themselves as victims of racism rather than victims of poor schooling or their own lack of ambition.
And worse it creates brand new mild racists. Upon seeing a minority in a position of power or influence, people that would have thought nothing of it may not be inclined to ask themselves, "did this person really earn the role or did we end up with the 3rd or fourth best because we could tick off 4 boxes on the checklist?" Frankly I would expect many successful minority individuals to be quite upset at having their success in something they may have worked their a$$ of to get to questioned in that manner. But only because of that law it becomes a valid question.
Honestly though AA deserves its; own thread. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/30/2008 11:29:19 PM |
It's amazing that such an ignorant and racist thread has not been pulled by the mods. Are they blind to this too?
The utter stupidity of these people saying that they don't see how comparing a black man to a monkey is racist reflects poorly on Canada. Can we all say "duh"?
Is Canada stuck in the 1950's? Have Canadians still not yet met anyone who doesn't look just like them? Do they think that its OK to call black people n'ggers, or burn crosses on their lawns while hiding inside white robes. or keep them as slaves?
This is a complete no-brainer and I'm very disappointed in all these Canadian racists. Canada should be embarrassed to have them in their midst.
| |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/31/2008 12:06:58 AM | The only thing that can be done is return to having all equal under the law and having it illegal to not hire or promote someone on the grounds of race, religion, gender,etc etc. The best man for the job not the whitest not the blackest not the cripple or the whatever just the best man for the job.
You say "return to" a time when employment was equal under the law. Exactly when was that? If you ask a Black or Brown person, they will tell you that such a time is yet to come for them.
I agree that would be poor but i don't agree that AA equalizes anything.
Do you deny that institutionalized racism existed before AA? Do you deny that AA is an attempt to remedy it? After all, it was a bunch of predominantly White legistlators who came up with it and Harry Truman was no liberal. Nor was Nixon, who took it beyond the military to civilian contractors with the federal government.
Going back, as you put it, means going back to the days when a Black or Brown person didn't have a ghost of a chance. If you don't have an alternative other than that then your position is the practical equivalent of a return to racism--not equality.
Yes, I whacked you a bit there, so please accept my apology. But the golden past that you want to hearken back to simply did not exist for people of color. If you want things to get better, you're going to have to help move things forward.
Do you want things to get better or not? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/31/2008 12:30:08 AM | I can't believe this thread has gone on for 10 pages.
I would have hoped that everybody with an IQ above 50 would have understood that comparing a black man with a monkey is racist. It is a slur that has been used so much in the past (and the present) that it should be an unmistakable insult by now.
But then again, as white people, we have to demand all our rights. After all, it wasn't us who benefited from the subjugation of other people, it was our forefathers (who conveniently bequeathed it to us). You can't even give up the symbolism of oppression without feeling that it somehow curtails your rights.
What's wrong with you idiots? | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/31/2008 12:49:43 AM | You say "return to" a time when employment was equal under the law. Exactly when was that? If you ask a Black or Brown person, they will tell you that such a time is yet to come for them.
It was that way before AA. Before the feminist and civil rights movements sold the minority vote to government for special treatment under the law. Before government legislated who you had to hire and gave hiring incentives for certain classes of people. Before freedoms started to be eroded by AA. And yes in 100 years the black,brown,red,yellow, etc will still be saying that time has yet to come and 100 years after that.
Do you deny that institutionalized racism existed before AA? Do you deny that AA is an attempt to remedy it? After all, it was a bunch of predominantly White legistlators who came up with it and Harry Truman was no liberal. Nor was Nixon, who took it beyond the military to civilian contractors with the federal government.
Raciism existed but it wasn't forced by the government upon us that i know of. AA is instiutionalized racism so no it is not an attempt to remedy it, it is an attempt by minorities to get revenge or get the upper hand. I don't believe the legislators came up with the idea at all they simply implimented the concept into legislation in order to pacify certain movements and buy votes.
You and i see the situation completly different mainly because Canada never had the same problems with blacks and racism nor women and feminism that the US did. We didn't enact AA until we watched it fail everywhere else in the western world. So it is a byproduct of what slavery in the US has done. That makes it more difficult for each of us to see the others point of view as valid or not. I see no reason why i or more importantly my children and grandchildren should be made to suffer an unjust law in Canada just because someone in the confederate states had slaves 200 years ago or that nothing was done about things sooner by your country. That to me makes no sense but is the essense of what has happened here.
AA has made a bad situation worse for impoverished whites as well as eroded the freedoms of all in society. | |
|
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/31/2008 1:56:24 AM |
Raciism existed but it wasn't forced by the government upon us that i know of.
You aren't aware of it because it didn't bite you directly. But you must have heard of Jim Crow laws, and in Canada the attempts to eradicate indigenous cultures.
It wasn't just the US South, but since you refuse to acknowledge that there might have been a problem for others, and aren't prepared to contribute a positive suggestion that would alleviate that problem, then I'm afraid I don't have anything more to say to you except that I hear your argument and I believe it is unsubstantiated, unsound, and unhelpful.
You appear to be looking out solely for your class interest and, unfortunately, public policy cannot rest solely on that. It has to take into account the interests of everyone. If there's going to be institutionalized injustice, then equalizing the harm and inconvenience by distributing it equally among all groups is marginally less awful than exempting certain groups from it and making other groups bear the full brunt of it. Just because your daddy was in the previously exempted group does not entitle you to that same privilege.
The remedy for you and your kids is to get better educated. A few courses in history might open your eyes. It's one thing to be poor. It's quite another to insist on remaining ignorant. Sorry, but by repeating your complaint you come across as a three year old who can only shout "it's not fair" when the parents say that it's time to go to bed. It's time to put "white privilege" to bed for good. Sorry that you don't like it. | |
|
|
| Page 10 of 11
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 |
|
Home
login 
