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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:00:38 AM | | I think it's a terrible put down for curious George if I was him I'd sue..I don't think Obama looks anything like the friendly fun loving monkey..On the other hand if he becomes president there's going to be all kinds of jokes and it will be intresting to see how he weathers the storm. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 77 | |
| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:05:47 AM | | Yeah I'd say a depiction of a black man ("half" black, whatever) as a monkey, eating a banana, would definitely qualify as a racist cartoon. There would be plenty of other ways to mock Obama, if this guy wanted to do so , besides making it a monkey eating a banana. What about just regular caricature?? Why turn it into a monkey? Good for MDA at least for telling him what to do with whatever money he makes peddling these. Anyway, let's do a comparison; Obama, 1st-gen American son of a black African immigrant father, a graduate of Columbia and then magna cum laude from Harvard Law, a practicing lawyer, a university lecturer, a senator, and now a US presidential front-runner. The guy who made the shirts (I don't even remember his name from the original article)..... his (white) family has probably been here on both sides for generations and generations, and he is ....... a bar owner. Yeah I guess if I were him I might be reduced to drawing racist pictures as well at this point... | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:07:23 AM | if this is offensive, then so is spike lee's movie "white men can't jump." that is a racist stereotype.  it offends me greatly.
face it, you can only be offended and cry racism if you are a minority. who cares about a freaking t-shirt. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:56:41 AM | I think a lot of people are reading too much into things. Not too uncommon, it is one of the problems of those who cry racism.
Look, there is racism, and then there is fun. And this is fun. This isn't racism.
If anyone out there is an evolutionist, you would be saying we all evolved from monkeys anyway, so who really cares.
But this to me is just absolutely absurd. To me, this is like saying that because my entertainment center is white, my dishes are white, my pots and pans are white, my television is white, and basically everything else in my house is white I must be a racist.
Or maybe I am discriminatory against the Amish because I don't own any of their furniture.
If I "Buy American" I must be racists against the Chinese and other manufacturing areas.
I say get over yourselves. This is absolutely pathetic to call this racist or anything like that. It's a freaking T-shirt. If you don't like it, guess what, no one is forcing you to buy one. It's like a television show. If you don't like it, turn the freaking channel. Don't ruin what others may call fun or entertainment because you don't like it. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:28:50 AM | acutally, i wouldn't. you want to know why? BECAUSE THE INSULT DOESN'T APPLY TO ME!! it would only apply to those who are sensitive or guilty of it. so why make an issue of it? someone wants to think of me that way, that's their business. not everyone is going to like everyone else. i've been called a $lut, etc., by people in the past and i just shrug it off because i know it doesn't apply to me. in the words of eleanor roosevelt "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent".
yes it would apply to you actually. If a racial slur is made about YOUR race, wheather you take offense to it or not it still applies to you. (not to mention that it is your face on the shirt) And what would you be guilty of? Are you saying Obama is GUILTY of being a monkey?? I am confused. And I am assuming that noone ever made Eleanor Roosevelt sit on the back of a bus or drink from a different water fountain. why don't you quote Nelson Madella or Martin Luther King ?
i'm a caucasian country gal...as dudleyh45 stated, should i get offended by all redneck jokes? well, i guess i should get upset only if someone of another race or ethnicity said it, not if a fellow cracker did right?!
Were you not just complaining that you hear to many colored people call each other ****ers and you have just used the term "fellow cracker"????
look, i'm not racist (if anyone thinks i am you're wrong). i look at the issue the same way i look at my community...a large percentage of the population where i live is on income assistance and most of them whine and cry about it. some are friends of mine and are constantly trying to make me feel bad because i have a new car, live on my own, etc.
you don't like whiners and complainers and yet you have been defending the only person on here who has whined about mearly haveing to hear about other people's pain. I think that maybe if you were not so fortunate with a car, a job, food in your belly, a home, maybe you would have something to whine about as well. I am not trying to emply that you have not worked hard for what you have, I am sure that you have. But why not try to have some humility and actually be greatful for the fortunes you have had, rather than judge those who have not been as fortunate. People don't always choose their situations and who are you to tell them they haven't worked hard enough to be as fortunate as you?
when i was in college, i did a presentation on september 11th (because it happened when i was nearly finished). i focused that on that day, race, creed, color, or language did not exists.
911 wasn't about race????? really???? I know that there is absolutley mare to it than race but I disagree.
Free speak is only a right to those who are willing to stand up for it.
unfortunatley it is a right for everyone
Look, there is racism, and then there is fun. And this is fun. This isn't racism.
is it "fun" when people are mocking the disabled or is that ignorant because it applies to you???
But this to me is just absolutely absurd. To me, this is like saying that because my entertainment center is white, my dishes are white, my pots and pans are white, my television is white, and basically everything else in my house is white I must be a racist.
if you did this specifically because black appliences somehow remind you of a colored persons skin, therefore you refrain from buying black things than yes. If not than this is a rediculous comparison.
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:39:31 AM | the only ones being racist are those calling it racist, as they are the ones who drew the connection between monkeys and blacks
does obama look like a monkey? yes
that's all that matters | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 11:00:13 AM |
is it "fun" when people are mocking the disabled or is that ignorant because it applies to you??
Depends on what you are talking about when you are talking about Mocking disabled people. There is a difference between mocking someone because they are trying to be mean and truly be injurious to someone, and then there is the type of mocking that I do between myself and my friends.
Even the MDA in this article is completely leveling a hypocritical standard. They won't allow this money coming from the sales of this T-shirt because god forbid someone may interpret it as racists, even though I feel that is completely absurd, but yet they'll allow Jerry Lewis to come out, parade around disabled people, make them completely helpless, and portray them as half people and they'll take all the money that he raises? If anyone needs to be thrown off TV, it's this idiot. But that is my view of him, and I can back it up with scholarly articles. So if anyone in this article should be criticized, besides those racist hysteria followers, it should be the Muscular Dystrophy Association. What a joke they are becoming. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:02:11 PM |
Depends on what you are talking about when you are talking about Mocking disabled people. There is a difference between mocking someone because they are trying to be mean and truly be injurious to someone, and then there is the type of mocking that I do between myself and my friends
and what exactly is that difference? Discrimination is still discrimination wheather you are dicreate about it or not. And I agree with you that the fact that a wealthy comedian is cashing in on ridiculing others is appaling. I just find it amazing that while it is being done to those of color you feel it is "fun" but when the discrimination is turned to something that hits home for you it suddely becomes a serious moral issue. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:17:09 PM | So the essential argument I am seeing put forward by the pro-T-shirt crowd seems to consist of this:
I've never seen the association of black people to monkeys and I haven't personally been a racist...and furthermore I'm sick of being put on a guilt trip for something my ancestors did...get over it, it's just meant to be funny.
Is that it?
So hundreds of years of blatant assocation of black people as "untermensch", as apes and monkeys in popular then underground racist literature and art...you have somehow never come across it once in all of your education either in books or television. I'd call that a massive failure of the educational system or television. I've seen it countless times. If you've even flicked past PBS near MLK day you've surely seen it once.
But for someone to say they'd never once seen this association, they'd have to have the attention span of a gnat or be lying.
In any case charlesedm is absolutely right, the context is all important. But it is so disingenuous to imply or suggest that people should just "move on" or "get over it."
The black experience in North America is one of the unique experiences of a people in world history, along with the North American aboriginals, and other oppressed victims of imperialism and colonialism. It should always be remembered and learned from by every succeeding generation. One does not need to feel guilt but one certainly does need to be reminded of the past so that they do not repeat it. People that start saying they get "tired of hearing about it" send up a red flag for me... that to me smacks of a spoiled smug and privileged generation that isn't interested in knowing how much blood and sweat bought them the life that they are too prissy to deserve. They especially need to be tied to their chair and made to learn their past...every painful minute of it. Maybe they should feel a little guilty for not feeling a little more thankful for what they have. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 12:46:48 PM | Actually, in case you haven't heard of the Jerry Lewis Labor Day MDA Telethon, the Muscular Dystrophy Association is cashing in on Jerry Lewis' ridicule of people with Muscular Dystrophy to raise money for their cause, but yet they won't accept this money. That is hypocrisy.
As far as my feelings, there are certain things I do cringe at. There are certain things that I have better things to do with my time. This, to me, is not racism. Neither is someone calling an official blind, or someone says "See you later," or other examples.
What I do get upset with is someone being limited because of their race, ethnicity, color, sexual preference, ability, age, or veteran status. That I do get upset about. I cringe whenever I hear the words , ****, slut, fag, retard, or any other discriminatory slur out there.
I do not get upset when someone takes a picture, in this case a monkey, and uses it to portray another person, in this case a politician, to raise money for charity because again, it was done in good fun in my opinion and it was an expression of free speech of who the t-shirt maker thinks of Obama's policies. The interesting thing about symbols and the rhetoric thereof is that you can take them and make them to mean whatever you want.
I think we need to stop looking for racist symbols. I think we need to stop searching for discriminatory symbols and then jumping on them. I think we need to grow some skin and stop pretending to be holier than thou.
I also would love to know how we can be so pissed off about this kind of stuff when if you listen to rap music, or a lot of other music, you hear nothing but , ****, slut, ho, words of violence, words of hatred, and words of sexual supremecy, but yet we don't care, for some reason. People still support it, but we are going to get upset about Curious George on a shirt? Please. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 1:01:36 PM | i have never heard african americans being referred to as monkeys. it must be the comany i keep. i need to go out and get myself some white trash friends. of course said in the spirit of free speech.  | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 1:17:10 PM | what on earth is an african american? you mean a black person? you think they call blacks african americans in france? african american frenchman?
in a world where we try to be so PC, we just end up looking like fools. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 1:29:51 PM | If one is somehow truly unaware of the really old history of blacks being compared to apes and monkeys...although I really don't know how it can be not known in this day and age...a casual Google under any of the search terms "blacks compared to apes" or "blacks compared to monkeys" will show how utterly pervasive it has been in culture and language since the days of the slave trade began, fostered on xenophobia, pseudoscience, plain old bigotry and fear.
"A tough monkey..."
"Monkey suit" for usher's uniform or tuxedo...
The drawings of "pickaninnys"..."Sambos"...
It's not just in English either...most European cultures have something like it and it's equally disgusting. Ignorance of it makes it no less so. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 1:52:26 PM | Racist, for sure. The fact the bar owner wanted to give the money to charity only come out after the mass media scrutiny he received, which is what he was looking for in the first place. It it not the first politically incorrect statement this man made...he is racist.
Those trying to use the Freedom of Speech argument have to look a little more closely at that point. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it ok. Think about who you are affecting by the decision to make T-shirts that MAY upset/attack other people or groups of people. The T-shirt obviously is making a reference that black people and monkey's have a lot in common, definetely a shot at blacks that has been used for many decades/centuries.
To think that this would be not though of as racist is ignorant imo. Just because it is not racist to you specifically, or doesn't offend you, doesn't mean that another group is not affected by it...learns to look at things from more than one perspective and you will see that racism is a large problem and can be taken way too lightly sometimes. Pull your head out of the sand and see the issue at hand. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 2:44:46 PM |
I also would love to know how we can be so pissed off about this kind of stuff when if you listen to rap music, or a lot of other music, you hear nothing but , ****, slut, ho, words of violence, words of hatred, and words of sexual supremecy, but yet we don't care, for some reason. People still support it, but we are going to get upset about Curious George on a shirt? Please.
How people are upset and screaming racist that own the T-Shirt with Obama and Hillary....
"Bros before Hos."
Misogyny is not a problem????????? | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:10:22 PM | THANK YOU themadfiddler!!!!!!!!! Finally, someone who is talking some sense and some real knowledge in this thread. The OP asked a simple question...is the shirt Racist? The answer is yes.
Just because SOME of you claim to have never known the stereotypical association, does not make it NOT!!!
And like I mentioned before, in Soccer stadiums to this day in Europe, Black star players are constantly subjected to monkey chants.
The OP states in his intial post:
Can't we have some good fun here? It's kind of funny, and well, it makes a statement too. There is nothing racist about this in my opinion. It's just poking fun at a public official and using his freedom of speech to make a statement. Talk about ridiculous.
To all who agree, refer to Msg 84 by themadfiddler!!! | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:24:33 PM | Ezzee says:
I also would love to know how we can be so pissed off about this kind of stuff when if you listen to rap music, or a lot of other music, you hear nothing but , ****, slut, ho, words of violence, words of hatred, and words of sexual supremecy, but yet we don't care, for some reason. People still support it, but we are going to get upset about Curious George on a shirt? Please.
Have you ever listened to a lot Hip Hop/ Rap/ RnB?? If not, then don't generalize an entire genre of music based on a few bad apples. Not every artist is an Eminem. That's like saying all Country music makes me want to kill myself. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:37:46 PM |
Freedom of speech is a right! Not a privilege! Are we supposed to compromise our rights because someone reasons negatively? No one should dictate boundaries for freedom of speech. As I have said before, with any right (this one included), there is also the responsibility that inevitably comes with it. Everyone is so up in arms asking the question of "if I can...." they fail to ask themselves if they should . This brings to mind the quote from John Lydgate:
"You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time." | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:40:53 PM | madfiddler...
I've never seen the association of black people to monkeys and I haven't personally been a racist...and furthermore I'm sick of being put on a guilt trip for something my ancestors did...get over it, it's just meant to be funny.
Is that it?
yes you hit the nail on the head!
So hundreds of years of blatant assocation of black people as "untermensch", as apes and monkeys in popular then underground racist literature and art...you have somehow never come across it once in all of your education either in books or television. I'd call that a massive failure of the educational system or television. I've seen it countless times. If you've even flicked past PBS near MLK day you've surely seen it once.
ok, no sorry...when we learned about slavery, etc., here, we were not taught the derogatory terms...are you saying that school's should teach that? yeah, that's a great idea! look at what a t-shirt did! the dirty "N" word was removed from "to kill a mockingbird" because the naacp demanded it. so making a statement that derogatory terms should be taught in history classes doesn't make any sense when it was activists who want the words removed from our vocabulary. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:43:23 PM |
To think that this would be not though of as racist is ignorant imo. Just because it is not racist to you specifically, or doesn't offend you, doesn't mean that another group is not affected by it...learns to look at things from more than one perspective and you will see that racism is a large problem and can be taken way too lightly sometimes. Pull your head out of the sand and see the issue at hand.
I think SHE hit the nail on the head. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:45:58 PM | Gee-- don't remember what ol' George (of the Jungle that is) looks like. Unfortunately, I can't get junior out of my nightmares. Having said that---
when one runs for political office you put yourself out there/available for that type of commentary. Might it be in poor taste? That is subjective--as is much of what is considered satire. McCain with a walker and a bag of Aricept? Clinton as a ?
Is it offensive? racist? agism?
No one takes serious issue when cartoons about the other candidates are out there--or the jokes and even the tee-shirts. I can even laugh at some--then go 'ouch'.
What I find offensive is that lack of support for Mr. Obama is considered racist. I think this reaction is typical of those supporters having to use this as a ploy to gather identification with the black community.
I don't believe his struggles of 'being raised by a single mother' were not the same as those of many who had to live in substandard housing, survive on food stamps or have a mother who took crap jobs to survive. Nor do I believe the average black person was able to live internationally, attend private schools and travel the world as a child. As a matter of fact, not many of us did.
I am very proud of the diversity that is afforded in our political process. But, I would not vote for/against someone because they were a woman, non-white, young or old. But, do remember, black is not the only racial minority in this country.
Now, when we have a poor or average person able to run and be elected THEN we will really have equality! | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 3:50:46 PM | | heres a question. who cares? if it werent for some S.O.B. crying about the damn shirt, no one would even know. just the 50 or so people who bought the shirt. and last i checked, this was america. you, i, and this norman fella can say what ever the hell we want. if it offends you, DONT BUY OR LOOK AT THE SHIRT. theres always going to be rascism. theres always going to be someone with a grudge. theres always going to be someone with an agenda. YOU CANT PLEASE EVERYONE. thats whats so great about this country. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:00:20 PM | | I don't know if the bar owner is a racist but I would not wear one of those shirts because it's in bad taste,if a white person wore that shirt in a black neighborhood he/she wouldn't be welcome.The monkey reference is just as much a taboo as the "N" word in black society.I do find it ironic that Pres.Bush was compared to a chimp and nobody complained. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/15/2008 4:16:26 PM | the only ones being racist are those calling it racist, as they are the ones who drew the connection between monkeys and blacks
The people that drew the connection between monkeys and blacks are long dead. The people who perpetuate it like the makers of this t-shirt are also racist.
The people who defend it and attempt to project racism on the people who object to the practice are just ignorant.
I've never seen the association of black people to monkeys and I haven't personally been a racist...and furthermore I'm sick of being put on a guilt trip for something my ancestors did...get over it, it's just meant to be funny.
Is that it?
It's not a guilt trip over something your ancestors did, it's an acknowledgement that they did it, so maybe we shouldn't perpetuate the same bullshit on the next generation.
ok, no sorry...when we learned about slavery, etc., here, we were not taught the derogatory terms...are you saying that school's should teach that? yeah, that's a great idea! look at what a t-shirt did! the dirty "N" word was removed from "to kill a mockingbird" because the naacp demanded it. so making a statement that derogatory terms should be taught in history classes doesn't make any sense when it was activists who want the words removed from our vocabulary.
Nah how about not white washing some of the nastier parts of your history? By the way, I can point out one person who is WELL aware of this association, the maker of the t-shirt.
I do find it ironic that Pres.Bush was compared to a chimp and nobody complained.
Yes, a monkey he had the misfortune of sharing a name with. To be clear, I don't think thats really ok either, but it isn't racially charged.
heres a question. who cares? if it werent for some S.O.B. crying about the damn shirt, no one would even know. just the 50 or so people who bought the shirt. and last i checked, this was america. you, i, and this norman fella can say what ever the hell we want. if it offends you, DONT BUY OR LOOK AT THE SHIRT. theres always going to be rascism. theres always going to be someone with a grudge. theres always going to be someone with an agenda. YOU CANT PLEASE EVERYONE. thats whats so great about this country.
LOL wait a minute, are you claiming that it's America, it's free speech, so shut up and not complain about the shirt? Well guess what, you CAN'T PLeASE EVERYONE, and the people who are complaining? NOT PLEASED. So shouldn't you 100% support their right to complain and say how stupid and racist it is? | |
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