| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 6:57:12 PM | Vyper, I would propose to you that the Swastika is a bad example of what you are trying to prove as the Swastika has had several meanings over the years, including religious symbols for Hindu's, Buddhists, and several others. While I agree in modern day Western Society it is currently shunned, it still hs many other symbolic uses.
But again, I think you very well prove my point of symbolism and how people do not all interpret a symbol the same way. Whereas I see the Confederate Flag for many different symbols, the most prominent meaning to me is a time in this nations history which was the most trying and proved that this nation could stand up to anything, as well as the battle over states rights, which the civil war was truly about. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 7:17:15 PM | I attended two predominantly black school as a child and was subject to racial slurs by black students.I have always considered myself to be Native American and was also the recipient of racial slurs from white people.The blacks called me honky and the whites called me the
"n" word .Most of the instructors were black and when I was called honky nothing was done about it but if a white student used the "n" word they were sent to the office.
My point is that there are racists on both sides of this issue.
Now when I here the statements of the so-called Rev. Wright and I find out that Obama did not get up and leave or rebuke this man until he was running for national office,I know he is not fit to hold office.Race has no place in a church: black or white.You have that from someone who has been the victim of racists black and white. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 7:20:45 PM | Your complaints about Affirmative Action show me that you understand the concept of injustice. Your lack of concern about the disadvantages that institutionalized racism has imposed on other groups indicates that you might be less interested in justice than you would like to believe
At no point in any post have i said that i am not concerned about the welfare of any group or race. We all have disadvantages to overcome so why increase those of my children and grand children with the pretext of lessening the disadvantages of others based solely on skin color or gender?
My position is backed by logic, evidence, and compassion. If you can disprove my logic, show me any evidence whatsoever to indicate that my conclusions are wrong, or show how my position needlessly hurts anyone, I'll happily revise it.
What is the basis for your position, and what are you willing to do about it if it turns out that yours might be mistaken?
The basis for my position is a lifetime of change in society ,for the worse. I have seen little things change such as when i was first looking for work as a teenager it was unlawful and unconstitutional to refuse to hire someone based on race, religion, gender,sexual orientation, or handicap unless that handicap made it impossible for that person to do the work. Now there are more jobs advertising employment equity is a factor or prefference will be given to aboriginals, women, or persons of a visible minority. Manitoba Hydro when advertising for linesmen will list several courses wich are needed before being considered for employment then will state that aboriginal applicants who don't have the required courses may receive a training program to update their skills before full employment. This sends 2 messages, the first being whites shouldn't bother because we are not the "flavor of the day" and the second is that aboriginals don't need to bother with educating themselves as that is not a prerequisit for them so they may as well slide through life. In my opinion this hurts everyone in the nation. I am not and have never advocated anything except keeping everyone on an equal footing. The color, religion, gender, or whatever else you think is your handicap is irrelevant. If we are all created equal than we are all equal and should be treated as equals even in employment practises. If you hold back one group of people in the hope that other groups will catch up or what ever your concept is then all you do is lower your national standard for the time it takes for those groups to catch up. Helping them to reach a higher standard while maintaining a high standard is far better than lowering standards to make it easier. Probably not the best explanation but that's what i've got right now.
All this garbage about black rights, white rights, women's rights, men's rights, individual rights etc have destroyed community in society. The individual has become more important than the society in wich he lives and that, to me, is dead wrong no matter what color you are or how your ancestors were treated. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 8:10:19 PM |
Whereas I see the Confederate Flag for many different symbols, the most prominent meaning to me is a time in this nations history which was the most trying and proved that this nation could stand up to anything, as well as the battle over states rights, which the civil war was truly about.
 Come on, Ezz!!!
The flag of dixie represents to you exactly what it represents to the rest of us, despite your gestures to the contrary!  The sheerness of any contrary pretext is what makes that pretext so comical, yet pathetic.
The most prominent meaning is a time in this nation's history which is largely behind us as a result of progress. The confederacy lost! Our national federation necessitated that the states give up some rights to empower the federation to advance and protect its collective interests on a international stage. Everybody was fine with that until it came down to the festering issue of treating coloreds like humans, rather than chattel, and a few other issues. Those under the confederate banner, like those romantically reminiscing on that "fonder time" felt that giving that up was too much to give and was worth fighting for. So they fought. And, despite forcing the coloreds to fight the union soldiers on the front lines to protect slavery, they lost.
Still, everyone in this country knows that the confederate flag is about the inhumane treatment of coloreds and the social culture and climate that was present in the south at that time that enabled its persistence, rather than any principled positions on sweet tea or states rights.
Try flying a swastika ANYWHERE in this country -- let alone on a governmental structure -- and arguing that it flies for ANY of its "other symbolic uses." | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 8:58:18 PM | Wherefore Art Thou?, with all due respect to your ex-husband, standards absolutely have been dropped for every fire department nationwide for the purpose of allowing more women into their ranks. Fire fighting is a very physically demanding job that men do better than women.
If you plot the distribution curves of physical strength among men and women and compare them, you will see a considerable area of overlap. The strongest men will always be stronger than the strongest women, but is it really necessary to limit firefighting to the absolutely strongest 0.5% of the population? If so, would _you_ qualify? I probably wouldn't.
If those entrance-barrier qualifications were lowered, that does not necessarily mean that safety on the job has been reduced in any way. Agility, stamina, and circumspection all play a part in both firefighting and combat. The Israelis did just fine with women in their military.
I get the impression that your mind is made up and that you would prefer to go back to the days when being White was a meal ticket. I'd prefer to earn my keep but that's just me I guess.
Good luck to you sir. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 9:02:01 PM | At no point in any post have i said that i am not concerned about the welfare of any group or race. We all have disadvantages to overcome so why increase those of my children and grand children with the pretext of lessening the disadvantages of others based solely on skin color or gender?
I hear you, and I hate it that something like AA was ever made necessary by people who could care less about your kids or the kids of others. It is really too bad that the advantages of racism weren't even equitably distributed among White people, but that doesn't mean we can allow institutionalized racism to persist.
If you have a positive suggestion for another way to stop rewarding people who practice racism in hiring, I'd love to hear it!
All this garbage about black rights, white rights, women's rights, men's rights, individual rights etc have destroyed community in society. The individual has become more important than the society in wich he lives and that, to me, is dead wrong no matter what color you are or how your ancestors were treated.
Is it really that these things have gotten worse, or is it just that they're now out in the open--whereas before people didn't dare discuss them for fear of reprisals?
Sometimes long-festering wounds have to drain for a while before they can heal. I agree with you that it is ugly, nasty, and it stinks. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 9:12:07 PM | If it was a picture of Hilary Clinton in a KKK uniform, it would be just as Racist and yes, should be protested just the same. Imo, it crosses the line.
- that's where I disagree - to truly have free speech in this country, there must never be
arbitrary lines drawn by peoples' morals. simply put, there are too many people and too many varying degrees of what one considers moral, what one considers racist, what one considers 'appropriate.' Essentially, while it can be universally agreeable to call some things racist, racism alone is not enough to be considered crossing the line - indeed, unless there is a physical threat incurred by such speech (ie crying fire in a theatre), there are no real rules being broken, except maybe common decency.
Indecent speech however, is not prohibited. In fact, given the context of our Nation's history - borne of rebellion - such speech should be cherished and safeguarded. Yes, referring to a black Presidential candidate as a monkey is deplorable....but to call one form of speech indecent, places ALL forms of political speech at risk. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 9:24:55 PM | Indecent speech however, is not prohibited. In fact, given the context of our Nation's history - borne of rebellion - such speech should be cherished and safeguarded. Yes, referring to a black Presidential candidate as a monkey is deplorable....but to call one form of speech indecent, places ALL forms of political speech at risk.
I totally agree with this. The remedy for indecent or racist speech is not censorship. Quite the opposite! It is a full and vocal and public denunciation of the offensive speech.
You can say anything you want to so long as you don't incite violence or panic. But you also have an obligation to hear and take seriously the responses of others who see things differently than you do. If I was the sort of person who couldn't stand to see my own views accurately chracaterized as racist, ugly, or offensive, then I'd probably feel a whole lot better if I were to just shut the hell up. But that wouldn't make anyone wrong for criticizing me or my bullshit attitude. --now would it?
When people didn't speak out against racism in the past, they made themselves accessories in a criminal conspiracy. No more! | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 9:48:41 PM | | There is nothing wrong with that t-shirt. I say suck it up and get over it. If it were a racial joke towards a caucasion that is what we would be told. That it was all in good fun and get over it. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 10:09:40 PM | So let me get this straight. The statement.
If it were a racial joke towards a caucasion that is what we would be told.
Implies you understand it's racist implications... but this statement.
There is nothing wrong with that t-shirt. I say suck it up and get over it
Implies that there is nothing wrong with that.
niiiiiice. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/26/2008 11:28:57 PM |
You just answered your own question. If the NAACP and Bnai Brith are in place to openly represent one segment of a society based race and heritage they are no better than any other racist group. If that doesn't fuel racism than nor would the workings of the KKK, by the same definition. It has absolutly nothing to do with opression it has to do with race or in the case of the Bnai Brith religion.
No actually i didn't. So are you saying that there would not be anymore racism if we just pretended like there never was in the first place? Yes they are in place to represent one segment of society that experienced hardships that others did not. Take Aboriginal people and residential schools for example. Simply recognising the hostory is not racist, it's more racist not to.
But again, I think you very well prove my point of symbolism and how people do not all interpret a symbol the same way. Whereas I see the Confederate Flag for many different symbols, the most prominent meaning to me is a time in this nations history which was the most trying and proved that this nation could stand up to anything, as well as the battle over states rights, which the civil war was truly about. Go for a walk in a predominatly black neighbourhood waving that flag over your head and see how many people share your views on symbolism.
There is nothing wrong with that t-shirt. I say suck it up and get over it. If it were a racial joke towards a caucasion that is what we would be told. That it was all in good fun and get over it.
So racial jokes are just "good fun?" | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 12:41:13 AM |
That it was all in good fun and get over it.
Dear pixie,
Have you ever been threatened, I mean really threatened? Have you ever seen
the smiles and the sly looks that bullies use to cover their tracks so that other
witnesses might be fooled while the target is isolated in the knowledge that the
threat is real?
If that's your idea of good fun then you can keep it.
Until you've had that experience and recognize such "fun and games" for what it is, you come across as a fool--or a criminal. Take your pick. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 3:30:02 AM |
If you plot the distribution curves of physical strength among men and women and compare them, you will see a considerable area of overlap. The strongest men will always be stronger than the strongest women, but is it really necessary to limit firefighting to the absolutely strongest 0.5% of the population? If so, would _you_ qualify? I probably wouldn't.
And affirmative action is not a textbook case of institutionalized racism? Under the guise of "making previous injustices right" or not this is exactly what it is. And oddly enough some of the biggest opponents of AA are competent successful people that could have used this racism themselves to launch their careers with less effort, but instead chose to go on merit alone. There argument being that they are in no way inferior and therefore never needed any special protection. Do you seriously think that a great number of CEO's hail from trailerparks where outdated racial superiority concepts might possibly still hang on?
Atleast most of us agree that the shirt was in bad taste. As I stated before that doesn't mean it must be racist, it simply means that it is insensitive to how some may take its' statement. Because a racist sees one thing in a symbol doesn't mean that is the only meaning of the symbol. Let the restaurant owner parade around in a white sheet and a goofy hat if he wants, it will just make it easier for many to decide to spend their money elsewhere and drive his business into the ground. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:07:23 AM | Now I am going to approach this from a somewhat radical viewpoint. I have a biography of george W (aka: little boots) where he is depicted as curious george the monkey. I also used to have an image of W composed entirely of smaller pictures of monkeys.
Obama being in possession of a larger quantity of melanomin than georgie boy makes this something completely different? This is what I argue is at the core of the issue. We attach a value to this image because we have learned to make this association between ethnicity and species. The spirit of eugenics lives on when we allow this image to mean anything different because of the ethnicity of the individual to whom it is being compared.
In short the man selling these shirts achieves his desired outcome when we become offended. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:37:08 AM |
And affirmative action is not a textbook case of institutionalized racism? Under the guise of "making previous injustices right" or not this is exactly what it is.
I don't like AA. But if your alternative is to do nothing about institutionalized racism then you are supporting its continuation. So propose something else that will stop racist employers from continuing their unjust practices and we'll all be happy to get rid of AA.
What do you propose? | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:39:40 AM | xosampson01xo,
It is not racist to Bush because Bush's race has never been subjected to racial discrimination in comparison to a monkey. Have you never herd the term "porch monkey?" If I am not mistaken that was not directed at a white man from Texas. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:40:56 AM |
Obama being in possession of a larger quantity of melanomin than georgie boy makes this something completely different? This is what I argue is at the core of the issue. We attach a value to this image because we have learned to make this association between ethnicity and species.
We learned that association because it was historically used to demean people who were blessed with abundant quantities of melanin. And, there are still people who use those images in that way. This appears to me to be just another instance of that long and nasty historical practice. That is why it is offensive and racist, whereas your pictures of Dub are parody.
You know the history. Why are you giving political cover to such mean-spirited BS? | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 3:01:22 PM | I am just posting these because all of this discussion has raised some interesting questions and peaked my curiosity as to others views. When I was in college I took a class called Race and American Politics. Fascinating class taught by an even more fascinating man by the name of Dr. Fred Lee. One of the handouts we were given at the beginning of the class, as he does with all of his classes, were something he called Leading Questions. So I thought it would be interesting to take this handout and propose these "Leading Questions about Race and Politics" to anyone who cares to respond.
1. What is the difference between "prejudice" and "discrimination?"
2. What are some key components of a definition of "racism?"
3. What are the key components of a definition of "institutionalized racism?"
4. Why has it been argued that in the United States blacks can be prejudice and can practice discrimination, but there cannot be "black racism?"
5. Is prejudice an inborn personality trait, a case of children mocking parents, or is it a result of a complex combination of social factors? | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:18:03 PM | 1. What is the difference between "prejudice" and "discrimination?"
The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: making a decision before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event. The word has commonly been used in certain restricted contexts, in the expression 'racial prejudice'. Initially this referred to making a judgment about a person based on their race, before receiving information relevant to the particular issue on which a judgment was being made; it came, however, to be widely used to refer to any hostile attitude towards people based on their race. Subsequently the word has come to be widely so interpreted in this way in contexts other than those relating to race. The meaning now is frequently "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence". Race, gender, ethnic, sexual identity, age, and religion have a history of in citing prejudicial behavior.
Why has it been argued that in the United States blacks can be prejudice and can practice discrimination, but there cannot be "black racism?"
blacks "can be" prejudice and "can practice discrimination? Well anyone CAN if they want to....and what do you mean there can't be "black racism?" Are you trying to imply that they get away with it? Anyone can be racist or prejudice that doesn;t make it ok for ANYONE black people included.
Is prejudice an inborn personality trait, a case of children mocking parents, or is it a result of a complex combination of social factors?
This could be a whole thread on it's own, it really depends what theories you follow. There have been many studies done to support both sides. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:57:33 PM | | After reading your many replys on this thread vixen, I as a black man can not possibly believe that you have many friends of different cultures; and if you do, I am sure that they are not aware of your opinoins regarding Racisim. Now! Because you found one black man you call " friend " it does NOT justify your racist views lol lol. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/27/2008 10:18:56 PM | | Awesome reply Sarabara, you have restored my faith in humanity-:) | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/28/2008 12:21:26 AM | thank you, although the part about prejudce is wikipedia i cannot take credit for that definition.
And I very much agree with what you said to vixen, simply because one man of color does not see the shirt as racist does not make it so. (not to mention the credibility of the source) | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/28/2008 4:42:44 PM | | ok so yes i chose my words poorly in my last post I will give you that but yes I have sufferd from racism. I grew up in a prodominitly black naghborhood and i got the slurs my family was accused of being racist yet we were the ones suffering.when i was 5 i had rocks thron at me constenly, by adults. but oh no what we experinced was not racisim because the only ones in this world that can be racisit are white and of europen decent so i am sorry if I offended any one but like i said had it been a joke about caucasions that is all it would have been seen as, a joke. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:40:58 PM |
ok so yes i chose my words poorly in my last post I will give you that but yes I have sufferd from racism. I grew up in a prodominitly black naghborhood and i got the slurs my family was accused of being racist yet we were the ones suffering.when i was 5 i had rocks thron at me constenly, by adults. but oh no what we experinced was not racisim because the only ones in this world that can be racisit are white and of europen decent so i am sorry if I offended any one but like i said had it been a joke about caucasions that is all it would have been seen as, a joke.
so being that you have experienced so much racism personally in your life you would think that you could have some sensitivity and recognise that this is NOT a joke. If it were in a well known racist comment pointed in the direction of a white person i for one would defend that as well. Nobody is saying that black people cannot be racist, there are many who are. The question was, "is the monkey shirt racist?" Being that black peoplehave been compared to mokeys for centuries would mean that YES it is a racist comment. And you say you chose poor wording yet you still referr to it as a "joke." So tell me if you were a black person would you want to be friends with you? You were absoulutley a victem of racist acts, but that does not mean that the entire race feels the same way as those who harmed you. Just as you and I are both white but I don't feel the way you do. | |
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| Monkey Shirt Racist?
Posted: 5/28/2008 8:07:48 PM | Pixie,
Thanks for telling your story. What you experienced was racism and it was wrong.
Guess who they learned it from? People who looked like us.
So, let's just all of us stop it, OK? Since people who looked like us started it, perhaps we should take the lead in stopping it.
When we see some of "our own" picking up those rocks, perhaps we can remember what it's like to be a target and tell our pals to put them down. Rocks or T-shirts with racist images--it's just a matter of degree. Isn't it? | |
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