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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/16/2008 5:21:59 PM | Yes I agree that religion is toxic, and I also agree that God instituted religion to be toxic to mankind. The topic is quite deep, and when a person grasps what was in the mind of God, then they will see why He commanded no images to be made of anything in heaven or on earth, and then right after God commmanded this, He commanded the Israelites to make graven images and place them in the ark. Sounds like a contradiction, but there is a reason to what seems like madness.
Good luck in your quest. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/16/2008 10:00:24 PM | | In pragmatic terms you see that what matters is how people treat one another. Their beliefs can be ignored. The thoughts are internal to the person's mind. It is how they act that has an effect. I know of no religion that directs people to go out and wreck everything. Most if not all religions teach people to be good, in some way, to at least favor good effects in their choices, considering the actions they take in terms of the results. A religion is a school for values. It is the values that matter. Going by how people act, religion has no role whatever in determining how people act. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 3:39:04 AM | RE msg 22 by Mind Freak:
Hate??? I think this poster needs to read the entire thread and the comments I posted along the way. I think you ought to read your own posts. You first talk about how toxic religion is. But then you add later on:
This post is about the extremists out there who make religion a dark and fearful thing.. The forum rules state that the topic is that which is addressed in the Opening Post, not what you added later. Maybe if you'd put this in your Opening Post, you might have avoided confusion.
I would agree that extremists are uncomfortable to be around, in any subject.
However, I cannot judge religion as being toxic, just because someone made my life uncomfortable. That's just colouring my view of religion based on the actions of one person, out of millions, or more.
You see, if I am going to judge religion to be toxic by the existence of extremists, then I have to judge anything that has extremists to be toxic. Some Americans believe in protecting America against invaders by killing everyone else. Some people are extremists in the Free Market, believing that anything is OK in the Free Market, including trading in women as sex slaves. So I would have to judge America and the Free Market as both toxic. Practically anything successful attracts some extremists.
But I don't blame America for its extremists. I don't blame the Free Market for its extremists. So it's unfair of me to even describe religion as being toxic, just because of its extremists. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 6:58:33 AM | Yes i was just reading a thread about lesbian relationships... and this guy calling himself a catholic was launching in with all the usual prejudice..
So I said "Catholicism is just a method of ****ing children and getting away with it, while feeling guilty about everything else". I think as soon as you believe that there is a god who created the world according to his cosmic plan, then it is inevitable that you see anything that strays from that mindset as wrong.. and anything that operates in his name as beyond reproach. Religion can be by its very nature narrow minded and anti love..
Then after my coment somehow the thread disapeared.... hope that does not happen with this one..  | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 8:20:24 AM | Religion could be a good thing.. And it's not all bad. But there is a lot of toxic ideas in it. It's just not people killing one another in the name of God, that's bad enough. But you also have the lesser evils that are terrible too.. Like telling someone it is God's will to give them cancer, it was God's will that someone die young. It was God's will and plan that a poor innocent child died.. and we can't know all the ways of God but one day we will... The list goes on and on about God doing these terrible things like giving people aids or sending a hurricane to some city, town or state as an act of divine judgement... If these Ideas aren't toxic and negative, fear filled and dangerous to the human mind.. I'll eat my hat..
Fear and guilt are negative emotions.. And alot of religion pumps people full of these things. I can kind of see where bunny is coming from.. Her words are a little strong..lol.. But I see her point..
It's like one character said in the Stephen King movie, The Mist... He said, " I believe in God too lady. I just don't think he's the A-hole you make him out to be."
I couldn't have said it better myself.. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 9:01:44 AM | My favourite religious quote from a film is from "Cross of Iron" when a female russian soldier has just found herself stabbing to death a very young german soldier. As she does so she is crying. then this guys last words to the german hero/anti hero Stiener are "do not hurt the women"... an other german soldier asks "Steiner, do you believe in God?" Steiner replies "God is a sadist, and he does not even know it..." | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 11:04:51 AM |
Fear and guilt are negative emotions.. And alot of religion pumps people full of these things. I can kind of see where bunny is coming from.. Her words are a little strong..lol.. But I see her point.. I think that a lot of people claim to speak on behalf of religion, for their own purposes, and make it look very bad for everyone else. An example is how the Dalits are treated in India. Karma is used to make them do work that is illegal, and the police look the other way.
I don't blame religion for that, because I see that sort of behaviour in secular people too. I blame the corruption that seems endemic in our society. I believe that if could be vigilant to eliminate corruption, we could eliminate it from religion, government, business and relationships, all at the same time. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 4:35:49 PM | First of all, the OP does not respect all beliefs as he claims, or he would not have came on another thread calling Jesus of Nazareth by the name of Jimmy Christ. It was childish and showed a lack of respect for people who believe in Jesus Christ.
That being said, yes religion can be toxic. The Church can be toxic. The problem is, there is no copyright on the Christianity. There is not one voice that speaks for all people who claim to be Christians. That is a good thing, but it also opens the door for all kinds of craziness. I would say that about 80 percent of Churches in America are failing to live up to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Are there power hungry men leading Churches and doling out dos and donts? Absolutely. Yes, unsuspecting people turn to the Church for answers and sometimes come away worse off by picking the wrong place. Yes, the Church has been dysfunctional, but I have not seen any other part of society that can claim to be any different. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 5:06:42 PM |
First of all, the OP does not respect all beliefs as he claims, or he would not have came on another thread calling Jesus of Nazareth by the name of Jimmy Christ. It was childish and showed a lack of respect for people who believe in Jesus Christ.
First of all, Jimmy Christ was written as a joke.. It was posted on a thread where a person claimed to be highly educated about the bible.. But he miss quoted alot of things. Everyone on the post realized this.. And so I made a joke..
And secondly, the individual quoted above said it was funny and imaginitive.. or some such thing.. and ended his comment with hahaha...
If this person believes in Jesus Christ.. Then a poor example has been put forth.. Does not the bible teach against those who speak with forked tongues.. or as we would say in modern terms.. Talk out of both sides of their mouth???? I believe it does...
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/17/2008 6:31:19 PM | I concur with RDtoo on this subject.
No one who knows or works with Muslims , thnks they are all the same as the Fundementalists who advocate suicide bombing. Yet, on this site, I notice a trend that puts all believers in Christ into the same camp. Hey, I differ with my so called fellow Chritians at times more so than I do a friend who happens to be a Muslim.
The point made by RD about other institutions also being corrupted, is dead on I think. Yes, some churches and so called Chritian are " toxic " . But then again very few institutions, other religions , governments, even charity groups, also have had there own causes corrupted.
You have to divorce the false churches from what Jesus of Nazerith preached I think. His message, has never been perverted, but how some interpret that message has been is my opinion. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 6:09:58 AM | I have to ask...
What do Christian's believe then?
Do they not believe in the original sin and Jesus dying to save us from this?
Isn't it a central theme of the Christian faith that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god and it is only though his grace and gift of life provided through the last sacrifice of his son Jesus that we may enter the kingdom of heaven?
Without this there is no need for god is there? If there was no original sin and hell wouldn't there only be one place to go when we die? If there was such a place as heaven and a god?
wikipedia say the following about the Christian hell.
Hell, in Christian beliefs, is a place in which the souls of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin. In the New Testament, hell (Gehenna or Tartarus) is defined as the place or state of punishment after death or last judgement for those who have rejected Jesus. In many classical and popular depictions it is also the abode of the devil and of evil spirits.
Without the above jesus would just be a man (if he even existed) that gives us a good message interwoven with sexism and slavism. there are other such people that have come and given us a more peaceful and harmonious message but didn't condemn us to hell if we didn't head their words. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 6:42:38 AM | Crazy Tilting has given us an example of how Religion can be toxic when she/ he states { QUOTE "Without the above jesus would just be a man (if he even existed) that gives us a good message interwoven with sexism and slavism. " END OF QUOTE} .
See it is religion , misinterpreting the teachings of Christ, that is toxic. It is certain religions, sects and faiths that teach sexism and slaverism not what Christ taught at all. It is when Gods word is perverted and taught as being from Christ that religion turns toxic.
Take sexism for example. There are many who like to quote the verse " Woman honour your husbands " , and use that as example that men are somehow superior. However the neglect to add the following passage , for men to treat their wives as they would a member of their own bodies. In other words, the left hand is neither better or worse than the right, both hands are just as important when doing a job.
Christs teachings were never toxic, sadly I think, many religions are toxic when they preach their own beliefs rather than his. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 7:06:57 AM | I have to agree with you on that. religion is toxic. church people are way out there sometimes. they dont even use their own mind anymore. granted I bleive in God fully but my mind in not fogged by crazyness. And i dont go to church. you know not everything they teach is true either. everyone thinks adam and eve were first two people here ..well they wasnt. if people would jsut read the bible instead of taking some preachers word for everything they would see it. god made people on day 6 rested on day 7 and adam came after that on i think day 8. it says so in plain english in the bible. in fact i showed this to my brother last night.
Christians are something else. i have not met one yet that is as good as a non christian. they are in fact outrageious. my neighbor i use to have was christian..that damn woman hated blacks, called them mean names and then had the gall to tell me i was going to hell for using internet becasue the devil put it here when she was using internet too. so i siad well i guess i will see ya there and she siad no im in a church chat room and i siad but u jsut said the devil put it here. christians think they are abouve the rest of us. they are not | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 9:21:46 AM |
And i dont go to church. you know not everything they teach is true either. everyone thinks adam and eve were first two people here ..well they wasnt. if people would jsut read the bible instead of taking some preachers word for everything they would see it. god made people on day 6 rested on day 7 and adam came after that on i think day 8. it says so in plain english in the bible. in fact i showed this to my brother last night.
My understanding is the 7 days of creation in Genesis 1 is prophetic and definitely not literal, and is speaking of the spiritual race of mankind made after the image of God in Christ. I see Christ as the beginnnng of the creation of God, not Adam. Adam and Eve were the rough draft of mankind in the flesh, but they are not the finished product.
Some points to consider....... quoted from a magazine article written by A P Adams, circulating march 1885-Feb 1886 :
1. The first account shows a perfect order, system and method, of which the second account is entirely destitute. In the first account the time is divided up into regular intervals. "The evening and the morning were the first day." "The evening and the morning were the second day," and so on. Here also the work of creation is systematically arranged and graded; it moves on majestically from the lowest forms of being to man, the image of the Creator. There is nothing of this kind in the second account. There is no order or system here, but rather a sort of an off hand mingling of all the events together in one short narrative.
2. According to the first account the work of creation occupied six "days"; whether the day be days of twenty-four hours, or days of a thousand years, or vast geological periods, we need not now stop to discuss; it is enough for our present purpose simply to notice that the periods are each called a "day." According to the second account the whole work of creation seems to have occupied only one day. See verse 4. "In the day that the Lord God made the earth, and the heavens, and every plant," etc.
3. The six days of the first account are followed by a seventh day of rest. No rest day is spoken of in the second account.
4. In the first account everything that God makes is pronounced "good"; and at last when His creative work is crowned with man in His own image, all is stamped with the divine seal as "very good." Nothing is pronounced good in the second account.
5. In the first account two beings are spoken of as being engaged in the creation of man. "Let us make man," etc. In the second it is the Lord God alone who creates male.
6. In the first account man is created in the image and likeness of God. In the second nothing is said of his being thus created.
7. In the first account man is given dominion over all God's creation. In the second no such authority is bestowed upon him.
8. In the first account the creation of the man and the woman seems to have been simultaneous and is blended together in a very curious way, as indicated by the use of the singular and plural pronouns in verses 26 and 27. "And God said let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them [the man and woman evidently, though nothing had been said about the female] have dominion. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." In the second account the creation of the male and the female is very distinct and explicit; and it appears that the former came into existence sometime before the latter.
9. Thus in the first account we see the male and the female blended together as though they actually were one, although nothing is said of their being one. In the second account we see just the opposite of this; the man and the woman appear as very distinct and separate. but they are said to be one.
10. In the first account the man and the woman are commanded to "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it." No such command is given in the second.
11. In the first account man has full permission, without any restriction whatever, to partake of every herb and tree "upon the face of all the earth," verse 29. In the second account a restriction is placed upon him. "Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
12. Finally, and perhaps more significant than all the rest, in the first account everything that is done is God's work. Man has nothing to do with it. God does the whole work from the beginning until he creates man in His own image and likeness, and rests because everything "He has made" is very good. In the second account, the prohibition laid upon him, man is made a party to the work; and he spoils it all, as he always has, by his disobedience. The first account is rounded out, and perfectly completed, bright and glorious, by "everything very good," and God resting "from all His work" (2:2) . The second account runs sadly on into the devil's disastrous work, man's disobedience, and the apparent ruin of the race. When we see it thus we feel like exclaiming, O that the first account might have been the true and only one! where there is no law, no serpent, no sin, no death. But many who would thus express themselves little think that without this second account, with all its disastrous consequences, man would never have reached the perfect state, and God's work would never have been completed.
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 9:48:14 AM | first day god said let there be light and dark second day god divided the waters. third day god made grass and fruit trees. fourth day god divided days to be seasons, days and yrs fifth day god created whales and all living creatures and told them to be fruitful and multiply. sixth day god created man in his own image both male and female. day 7 god rested. adam came about after all this above was already created (including people God made on day 6.) therefore i do not undertsand how people can say adam and eve was here first.
This is what it says in my bible. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 10:00:13 AM | This is what it says in my bible.
No it doesn't, no where does it say Adam was created on the 8 th day, nor does it say that there was man before Adam. However you are entitled to read into it whatever you choose....
Genesis 2:5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,
Genesis 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 10:14:06 AM | you are wrong. it says got created both male and female on day 6. adam came aobut AFTER god rested. well god rested on day 7 therefore adam came after day 7 ...does nto mean day 8 does not mean day 9 but teh point being is he was created after god rested on day 7. so you figure it out. there were people here before adam came about. you can deny it until the cows come home but its written right in front of your face in the bible. someone else told me day 8 but it doesnt say day 8 in my bible. but the bible makes it quite clear there were people here before adam and eve. are you trying to tell me the bible is lying when it says god made male and female on day 6 in his own image and told them to be fruitful and multiply? is that what ur saying? read genesis chapter 1 versers 26-28
sir what im telling you is read genesis chapter one verses 26-28. and then tell me god did not create people on day 6 .it even says day 6 in the bible. adam came about later. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 10:24:26 AM |
you are wrong. it says got created both male and female on day 6. adam came aobut AFTER god rested. god rested on day 7 therefore adam came after day 7 ...does nto mean day 8 does not mean day 9 but teh point being is he was created after god rested on day 7. so you figure it out. there were people here before adam came about. you can deny it until the cows come home but its written right in front of your face in the bible. someone else told me day 8 but it doesnt say day 8 in my bible. but the bible makes it quite clear there were people here before adam and eve.
I think you missed the entire message in my post, so lets talk about God's rest.
Is Jesus a liar I must ask you?
If day 7 has already passed and it is meant as literal, then why does Jesus say that the Father has not yet entered into His sabbath rest (7 day rest).
John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."
Jesus says the Father has always been at work til this very day. Yet you expect me to believe that because you think the 7'th day of rest is complete, we should believe you...when Jesus says the rest of God has yet to take place??? | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 10:31:03 AM | | no god was not finished he continued to make adam...after he rested on day 7...other people were created on day 6. no point in arguing. Its written in the bible in genesis. I would write it out here for you word for word straight out of my bible but it would take too long. just read it yoursefl i have gave u the verses alreayd. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 10:52:27 AM | no god was not finished he continued to make adam...after he rested on day 7...other people were created on day 6. no point in arguing. Its written in the bible in genesis. I would write it out here for you word for word straight out of my bible but it would take too long. just read it yoursefl i have gave u the verses alreayd.
Actually I have given an explanation regarding the prophetic creation of mankind spoken in Genesis 1, you just don't understand what I wrote.
You claim that church leaders refuse to look at the truth in scripture, but I see this as quite hypocritical in your own postings, Genesis 2:5 says no man was formed before Adam, but you just reject this verse and carry on your merry way under your own private interpretations and ignore the scriptures that contradicts your personal theology and shows your theology in error.
Your theology does nothing to explain why Jesus said the Father has yet to enter His sabbath rest in the verse I shared from John...in fact you reject what Christ has said and cling to your own l interpretations.....
so far you have refused to addrsss the scriptures I have shared,
like you said
"No point in arguing" ........and this is probably because you don't even have an argument in the first place. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 11:24:03 AM | | dont care what anyones take is on it. they can read it for themself and if they still dont want to believe what is written that is their choice. I cannot make them. re read agian .. male and female was both made on day 6 in the his own image. Its not what I'M saying its what god has written in the bible. techincally no one knows. not u not me not the man next door. we do have our own understanding of what we were either taught by someone or read. who's to say its right or wrong? You nor I really know. we jsut have our own opinion based off what we read or hear. my opinion is based off what i read. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 11:34:57 AM | dont care what anyones take is on it. they can read it for themself and if they still dont want to believe what is written that is their choice. I cannot make them. re read agian .. male and female was both made on day 6 in the his own image. Its not what I'M saying its what god has written in the bible.
Then by your theology the bible contradicts itself, by saying that God created man on the literal 6'th day, and then it says that no man was yet formed on earth in Genesis 2, which you say is after God created mankind.
well which is it? Did God already have man formed when He craeted Adam as you assume it says, making Genesis 2:5 a contradiction? Or is your theology contracdicting what the bible teaches.
Any way you slice it your theology contradicts Genesis 2:5 which you will have to explain now to refit into your theology..
Your church leaders obviously taught you well....and that is, in how to ignore scripture and make up your own toxic religion. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 7:59:05 PM | | yes actually your right. the bible does contradict itself. Ya know sometimes meanings to a sentence can be took more than one way. who's to say which one is right. you sure dont know and neither does anyone else. only God himself knows. then u got the bible been re-written what only god knows how many times. how do u or anyone else know if it was reworded in a slightly diff way which would change its meaning from the original meaning? no one does. here is something to look at concering people being here before adam. adam and eve had sons so if there were no people before them how did the world mulitply. the only way it oculd is if eve slept with her sons. which is a sin for mom and son to be together. but in the bible since it says he made male and female in his image on day 6 then that would make more sense becuase sons dont have to sleep with mom. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/20/2008 11:48:50 PM | yes actually your right. the bible does contradict itself. Ya know sometimes meanings to a sentence can be took more than one way. who's to say which one is right. you sure dont know and neither does anyone else. only God himself knows. then u got the bible been re-written what only god knows how many times. how do u or anyone else know if it was reworded in a slightly diff way which would change its meaning from the original meaning? no one does.
Interpreting the scriptures requires a balance in translation methodology in order to conclude the proper exegesis. Anything short of applying this, is poor scholarship leading to false doctrine, that is based on false teachings of those who have been deceived.
Now if you claim that the bible contradicts itself, that makes you consider that you are smarter than the author, and that your level of undestanding is what rules on truth. The scriptures are for those who are of the Spirit and no one else...they were written for the sons and daughters of God to gain wisdom and insight, correction and reproof.
Whenever someone who calls themselves a christian, and then makes claims to invalidate the scripture and place it below thier own personal revelations, they expose themselves a false prophet and teacher.
And if you truly were honest with yourself, you would acknolwedge that your theology has no foundation of truth when it disqualifies the scriptures as you have done, and that by disqualifying the scriptures as truth, is proof that your theology is based on your own imagination. | |
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| TOXIC RELIGION Posted: 5/21/2008 4:46:56 AM | { QUOTE "Christians are something else. i have not met one yet that is as good as a non christian. they are in fact outrageious. my neighbor i use to have was christian..that damn woman hated blacks, called them mean names and then had the gall to tell me i was going to hell for using internet becasue the devil put it here when she was using internet too. so i siad well i guess i will see ya there and she siad no im in a church chat room and i siad but u jsut said the devil put it here. christians think they are abouve the rest of us. they are not' END OF QUOTE }
Talk about "outrageous statements, Kittenshere sure has stroked every Christian with the same brush, I find it hard to believe she has never met a good one yet. All Christians are racist because one who might have professed to be one was one?
Well I know lots of Christians who are good people, not that being a Christian gives one exclusivity in that area, I do know non Christians who are " good people as well". For sure I know Christians who are not racist, was raised by one. In my home as a child, we learned at a very young age that you never made any negative comments concerning race in my Dads presence, and that was way before political correctness was in vouge.
Christians are like anyone else, face the same temptations, some are brave some are not, some are nice and some are not. But I do know some that became better people after conversion to belief in Christ. Not that all become better I admit.
One particular Lady I know is an example of this. She came to believe while on death row down on PA ( She served 7 years on the row) . Her sentance has since been vacated to life , she will die behind bars. I use this person as an example, for she has absoloutly nothing to gain by her " jail house conversion", she is quite aware she will die there , has no possibility of using her belief in order to get early parole for example. In her case, she was by her own words, a bad person who became a better one after her conversion. Today, she spends all her time helping other inmates, improve themselves, and places all the credit for her work on her Lord and Saviour.
Conversly, I know unbelievers who do good work., and I think they are good people. Sad that Kitten shere doesnt know one Christian who is a good person , or perhaps she paints all the ones she knows with the same brush as that racist nehibour of hers? Just as some faiths and religions can be and are toxic, some who profess to be Christians are toxic people. Not all though !
In fact, while we are not suppose to judge, I will go as far as to say I have a hard time believing anyone racist can be a true Christian, how can one hate a whole race of humans and follow Christs example of tolerance for those who are different ?
Most of the " false prophets " who start these toxic religions, probably describe thems selves as Chritian. Doesnt make them one though does it? Surely, anyone on dating sites like this one, knows that what people claim they are is not necessarily true,lol. | |
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