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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:19:01 PM | | LoL dont bring God into this. Jesus wont save a man when he going broke divorcing. You can talk a man into signing a pre-nup easily bc it doesnt mean much to us- well it doesnt mean anything to me. I dare any man to ask a woman to sign it. Haha damn! They can talk alright. lol | |
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jurupa
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Joined: 2/12/2008
Msg: 52 | |
| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:26:18 PM |
jurupa; you are brilliant; we should close the post; you said it all.
I appreciate your short ass post; even though I think its one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while. Mthomjmark what I said may be consider dumb, but that is what marriage is isn't? | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 7:40:49 PM | You know that old expression, "put your money where your mouth is"?
There are things that people do, to publicly affirm their ideals and commitment. Marriage is one of those things. It's a symbol of a commitment, as well as legal obligation to another person. You are taking a risk for a lifetime gain of love and support. It behooves you to choose very carefully.
I was with a man for three years exclusively, and when I finally asked where the relationship was going, and mind you, it had been a peaceful and happy relationship until then... He replied, "Well, I don't know, I am not sure how I feel about you."
I thought that was pretty lame. So I ended it there and then. I could have been with someone who did want to commit and his total lack of ability to do so prevented me from being with that person.
I am just another human looking for a connection. I am not a fun time toy for anyone. I am not someone's meal ticket. I am not going to put my time, energy and emotion into something that returns nothing tangible. No one should have to do that. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:20:53 PM | He's bashing my opinions. Quote one post where he has bashed your opinions. Like he said himself, he is merely asking for opinions. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he's bashing you, and I defy you to quote where he did.
On the other hand, in your very next post you said:
It's sad that some would rather live in sin and raise and corrupt children by doing so. Then you go and bash the opinions of all those who disagree with you by making the ludicrous claim that they are "living in sin" and "corrupting children."
I may not bash your opinions, but I'm certainly bashing your hypocrisy. You claim he's bashing you yet all throughout this topic you've been doing the lion's share of the bashing. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 8:48:37 PM | ""There are things that people do, to publicly affirm their ideals and commitment. Marriage is one of those things. It's a symbol of a commitment, as well as legal obligation to another person. You are taking a risk for a lifetime gain of love and support. It behooves you to choose very carefully.""
A symbol of commitment with an almost 60% failure rate.
And out of that nearly 60%, 85% was the choice of the woman.
Marriage may symbolize love and commitment to women, but no longer to men.
Why enter into a "one sided" commitment that will be broken when she finds a BBD??? | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:04:56 PM | | Marriage seals the deal...the ultimate commitment..and I don't think guys are that resistant to marriage...I've been informally proposed to 8...I think even 9 times now...I think it's more an issue of the guy not wanting to propose to the girl they're currently with...but when they feel they've found the "one", it's easy for them to propose. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:09:19 PM | Once upon a time, when I was...oh...about 20 years old, I got sucked into that ideal lifestyle that was spoon fed to me by my parents: find a nice boy, date him, fall in love, get married, have babies and live happily ever after. 
Now, 25 years later...things have changed. After reading through the many posts in this thread it seems that the majority of those with the strongest opinions are the younger people with their lives still before them. Some may declare TODAY that they'll never get married (hey, I once said I'd NEVER have kids - but I have 2 wonderful sons, both over 20) but...people change, they evolve, they grow and with that growth and evolution SOMEtimes they change their minds about marriage (or kids) too.
Marriage, just like having children, is something that should be discussed when a relationship has evolved into a comfortable partnership. If one partner is adament about NOT being married or NOT having children, then their opinion should be respected. If it's not something that the other partner wants to compromise and/or give up (meaning the other partner DOES want marriage or children), then there should be an agreement and a parting of ways instead of manipulation, trickery or coercion to try and change the other person's mind.
Yes, it will be painful but heartbreak does heal. It's better to let someone find happiness without you if you are unable or unwilling to provide what they "need" to be complete and happy in their life. If being married or becoming a parent is esential to someone's interpretation of happiness, then they shouldn't be condemned for wanting to leave a relationship that fails to provide what they want. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:26:47 PM |
Marriage seals the deal...the ultimate commitment...no going back
Then why is the divorce rate so high, eh? Clearly it's not the ultimate commitment you're claiming it to be.
I don't want to give the impression that I'm as opposed to marriage as some on this thread are. In fact, I'd like to be married someday. But I do have to call into question this idea that many here are espousing that marriage is any more a sign of commitment than a common-law arrangement is. Clearly, the facts utterly disprove the notion that people who are married are any more committed than anyone else. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:48:54 PM | Then why is the divorce rate so high, eh? Clearly it's not the ultimate commitment you're claiming it to be.
From my perspective it is...and perhaps for others it is as well...thus the reluctance to get married. I can't speak for the other thousands who do get married and divorced ...if not multiple times. Those who perceive marriage as the ultimate commitment are less likely to jump into as it represents something more serious...whereas the stats you propose are perhaps more indicative of those people who, I can't really speak for them, do not take the "marriage commitment" thing as seriously, consequently, they'll simply cheat or divorce down the road...thus it is easy for them to jump into it as it is to jump out. From my perspective...it is a one shot deal with the intention of doing it right the first time and only one time and staying committed to that one person ...so to me it is the ultimate commitment. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 9:55:49 PM |
whereas the stats you propose are more indicative of those people who do not take the "marriage commitment" thing as seriously...thus it is easy for them to jump into it as it is to jump out.
That being said, then, how do you really know which kind of person you're marrying? I may be the type of guy who wants to get married only once and have it be for life, but no matter how much discussion I have with my future wife on the issue, I have absolutely no way of knowing that she won't one day decide she's sick of me and walk out the door. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/15/2008 10:55:33 PM | rune has a point about the spiritual union and the legal understanding not having to be part of marriage per se. but there are a couple other points. first, on behalf of the children, an additional agreement with their "rights" in mind needs to be in place. this includes any future inheritances, particularly if there are prior or future children on the drawing board or if the child enters into the familial arrangement from another relationship--this would state just exactly how would all fit in the finanancial picture while together and if broken up later. much of marriage law has these and other related issues implied. after all , it had practical beginnings. also back then (when i was still in college), in some states (such as texas) when women married, they lost their property rights with the marriage and the name change. thus, the reason why many women held onto their names after the 60's (aside from the more obvious reasons like that was who they were to that point).
also in usa law, married people get inheritance tax advantages if one should die. this is related to joint tax returns. in essence the survivor gets the deceased's deductions et al and also this ties to the need for living trusts, wills, power of attorney etc. for some, it's cheaper to get married after all this. not every one has a fancy dancy wedding. i know my second wedding was very cheap and i had all the big wigs attending-- carrying something to contribute to the pot luck. everyone danced the nite away, said it was the most fun they had since they were kids. people came from all over the world. alas, it ended after ten years but that is another story! not sure they would come to a signing of our property agreement. it was all about ritual, integrating customs and ceremony.
especially if they start living together and the continuum between this experimental stage and the marriage alternative (without ceremony) is hard to identify over time, it may become unclear as to when these legal agreements should take place and if they are affordable to structure. here just a simple living trust can cost between $500 and $2000 w/o all the other attachments . i think marriage and ritual often offer a rite of passage that helps to label when the long term commitment begins, as well as having many backup laws to protect the children and the non working spouse (assuming s/he is family rearing or unable or maybe just a stepford spouse!). also, there are property assumptions which vary by state and also have different tax implications upon relationship dissolution, sale and rights to property.
i think people feel safer and view the commitment of marriage as comforting so they don't always have to walk on eggshells fearing the worst or not thinking they are "good enough". i suppose i could go either way. but my man needs time out a lot--not to screw around but to just be with himself. so that is also a whole other story! i had friends back east living together with a similar problem. the noisy one (the male) drove the female partner nuts with his chattering. so they agreed that when either wanted alone time in their very small apartment, that person would put on this atocious looking bonnet and there would be quiet between them for a maximum three hour period. still, they never got married and eventually broke up. it was sad, they made me laugh my butt off! yet here i am, not living with him, and yet thus far an implicit commitment or shall we say a monogamy agreement. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 2:54:13 AM |
I'm wondering (and speaking purely logical here) - what exactly *does* a woman put at risk to show her love and commitment in a marriage contract - that is equivalent to what a man puts?
While I agree with you and another poster, that more often than not ..men get cleaned out in the divorce. But I have to also point out that not all women do this, and I do not appreciate being lumped into this category by your stereotypes.
I walked away with my children and some furniture. That's it. No half the house, no anything. So becareful who you blame for your financial situation. Just because one woman did it, doesn't mean all do. Treat every person as an individual, and base their actions on that.........not what someone else did to you.
With that said, I lost something more valuable than anything he could own. I lost myself. I lost respect for myself, I lost my "fire" for life, I lost alot. But I got it back when I left him. And I will never give it away again....doesn't mean I won't get into a long term again, but a pieces of paper isn't necessary to tell him I love him.
And to the other poster who said that 85% of women file for divorce...you are not using that stat truthfully. How man of that percentage file because their hubby left due to cheating (on his part) and he is too lazy/cheap to file the paperwork even though he wanted out? How many are cases of the man just disappearing and the woman has to file to move on with her life. Again becareful how you stereotype all of us, it can hurt your chances for what you seek...a relationship. You are on a dating site after all. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 3:43:02 AM | Ya know...I think its interesting...that men blame women for what they effectively "lose" during a divorce.
Am talking specific to men here, cos it was a guy who started the thread on marriage and mostly guys who've been using the monetary argument against it.
Two things I wanna say here.
1. Unless a woman sits on her ass all day, not working, not doing housework and not raising children...then she's contributing
The Law(s) were written to factor her net worth as a contributor; the Law(s) were written (for the most part) by men, are judgements more often than not handed down by men...and are considered fair, even if you dont.
And...IF these Laws werent considered fair...they would have been changed a loooooong time ago.
2. Its not the WOMAN who takes all your money...its the Law, Lawyers and the Judges
People hire lawyers in a divorce << logical.
They hand them over all the information, the lawyer then does his/her job and the woman has effectively nothing to do with it until the judgement is handed down.
Its completely irrelevant to the woman and while you're jumping up & down, and blaming her...she usually has nfi she's "done" anything at all.
Now since the Law(s) were written by men, most Lawyers are men and most Judgements are by men who have absolutely no vested interest in giving anything less than a fair and equitable judgement...
...arent you guys blaming the wrong person and the wrong sex?
Im not saying some men dont get taken to the cleaners by some women.
But I gotta be honest...Ive never seen it happen. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:20:45 AM | Nah........Iam happy just to stay a sinner
Married?....been there... done that | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 4:32:15 AM |
rune has a point about the spiritual union and the legal understanding not having to be part of marriage per se. but there are a couple other points. first, on behalf of the children Hi Serenity :) I think that children should have rights regardless of the relationship status of their parents. Both parents are responsible whether they are married or not. Getting pregnant may be a joint effort but I feel strongly that neither person should participate in this act without being willing to take on 100% of the responsibility of having a child. There are always circumstances (including death) that can lead to the child having only one parent in their life and if that parent was only able or willing to give 50% of the care that child needs, they shouldn't have taken the risk of having one (the risk is not theirs to take, the one at risk is the child). I really see having children and co-parenting agreements as something separate to marriage, but you're right that it could certainly be a 2nd legal agreement in addition to the cohabitation one.
The point I was trying to make is that marriage is such a blanket "one size fits all and suits no-one" coat, that fails to address the very individual and unique dynamic of a relationship between two people and the importance of having them sit down together and discuss and think about the things that can go wrong and work out an agreement that they consider to be fair in that situation. People waste a lot of time obsessing over cakes, guest lists and dresses without thinking properly about the actual legal commitment they are making. So it should be separate... | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 5:19:56 AM | All great post everyone, had a lot to read this morning, appreciate the answers and experience
First @ 1missblueeyes : Well I have reread all my post, and I honestly don't see where I bash you but if I did offend you that much then I'm sorry.
Now I haven't fully posted my opinion on the matter so I guess I'll clarify what I think on the situation.
I do believe in marriage/wedding, but I do not think it is nessecary or something that should be decided on a whim. I think my main problem with the whole situation is how the society makes wedding/marriage looks like. I do not want to marry someone who think they have to marry me because society requires it (parents, friends, relative etc). Or to marry someone because they think we've been together "long enough" and it's time to get it over with. I want it to be a one shot deal, so it's definitly going to be a long tough (sp?) desicion between me and the person I love.
Call me old school or dreamer (lol I'm stilla kiddo so I'm allowed to), but I wanna marry someone out of love. Someone who actualy want to be with me for me, not just so they can live their childhood girl's dream of having a wedding reception (well they can, just as long as they do wanna be with me) or because their best friend just married so they have to also. And yes I know love doesn't last forever, but I'd like for it to start that way, after it can become a partnership, wich I think is something beyond love, it's respect and mutual understanding, I believe that if you can stand someone at their worst and they can stand you just the same, then you've probably found the right one. As far as spiritual goes well, I think we should leave religion out of the topic, because that's an entirely other debate :P
With everything tied up to marriage nowaday it's hard to find someone that wants to marry for those kind of reason or that actualy stick that reasoning. As far as legal binding goes I honestly have no idea how it works, haven't been that far yet in a relationship + I'm in canada, so it's probably different from what most of you guys say. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 9:16:32 AM | Now that you have explained yourself I understand; sometimes posts need to be longer because you can get the vibe of what someone is saying. But I think you are also not seeing that a girls dream of having a nice wedding with you in it IS special. I think you get the vibe of being just a puzzle piece in the wedding dream scene and that does happen. Especially with people in the U.S. so obsessed with topping each other with extravagance and keeping up with each other.
But I think being up front is the key. Canada is another world from the U.S. We usually are the worst example of anything in most cases unfortunately, but I know several Canadian woman and I can feel what you say. They are usually very beautiful but they also have good values and their desire for a good marriage is ultra high.
I would lighten up though. When you fall in love with someone totally, just enjoy it and let it happen. Remember they are there for you, not to just fit into their dream puzzle. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:25:35 AM | | I'll avoid all this mumbo jumo and just be bachelor for the rest of my life........I've talked to several older men and they've l told me that marriage isn't worth the hassle, and that when its all said and done a womans companionship is over rated............i'd rather live at peace by myself than with some old senile woman constantly nagging and cutting my lifespan short due to the hazardous stress shes placed on my health. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:43:36 PM | yvanth, despite the "canadian" post after yours, you still seem to be having the same problem as some usa people, let alone your age. i'm almost 60 and i never had pressures to marry or have a big wedding. my first wedding had me in a t shirt at and he in his overralls at my grad school--an ivy league one at that! my second as mentioned was a riotout potluck with many "important" people attending.
this is a complex world today, with many more pressures. or maybe, like my mother used to say, it was "always" there and we just didn't know it. if you are a person of substance, you will need to find someone of similar bent. i know they do exist. unfortunately too many younger people are falling for increasing commercial hype. many are learning the hard way.
that being said, there is never a guarantee. people change, some hearts are broken, some have great marriages or partnerships, some have great work, some have great kids and family. this is about life. often you learn the most from the transitory things. if one thing is secure, another may not be.
just be committed to the learning and also to the serving of others. if you do, your life will be well spent and hopefully you will find a great partner in the course of it all. whatever your spiritual connection, be it a formal G-d, mother nature, the larger picture, the big bang--just don't miss that entire forrest (withing the pattern of nature) while you worry about some of the trees.
i have no doubt you will find the right one. but it takes practice. if it turns out not to be permanent, it means a better possiblity afterwards. just take the risk and don't live in a life of fear. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:27:11 PM |
When women can provide the same legal obligation for men as we currently do for them (according to law), then we'd consider it. All debts accrued in a marriage are shared 50/50 in a divorce, as well as the assets. This includes taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me.
The idea that men somehow get "cleaned out" comes from the idea that in the marriage partnership, they own everything and women make little or no contribution. In a community property state, everything accrued from the date of marriage is held equally by both parties. The partners share equally. Inheritances are exempted. They belong to the party who received them, as long as they are not comingled with community assets.
This is only fair to both parties involved. If a woman is staying home caring for children and a home, she is not lazing around doing nothing to contribute. I have had a career and been a stay at home mom, I assure you the latter was a lot more work, and it's not like you get off at the end of the work day and get to become a vegetable either.
The reason that women file for the majority of divorces now, is that most of them are not completely financially dependent on men. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:43:39 PM | I'd like to meet some of these men who were cleaned out in their divorces because I've never met any of them. Most of the divorced women I know get NO help from their exes with child-rearing expenses, didn't keep the house, and hardly got anything.
And superlizard, that may be the case, but something I've noticed is that men will stick around in a bad marriage because he doesn't see how much it sucks. Once some (not all, of course) men get married they stop trying to show the woman they used to romance and show their devotion to so much that they are loved. It goes stale, and they don't see it.
Also, if you try to talk to them about what you are unhappy about (I've had to deal with this with boyfriends), they get defensive. They say you're being dramatic, stupid, and high maintenance. If someone stops giving one person what they were giving before the vows were exchanged, and they refuse to fix the problem, well... you see where that is going... | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:15:23 PM |
See, that's what makes marriage "Marriage"... but unfortunately, according to stats (which I previously posted) women aren't capable of sticking to their vows... their word is crap, their commitment is crap. And it's all too easy for the self-proclaimed "unloved wife" (whether real or imagined) to cut and run with no-fault divorce, and to stick the man good with the female-biased court system.
Well, some people don't have that bitter, jaded view.
Men leave women for reasons like that too. If a woman is going out and having sex with a random guy every weekend, wants to stay married, refuses to touch her husband, and refuses to change, should the man stick around because he said "for better or for worse?" How many men would stay in a situation like that? I don't know any. It's important to work at it, but sometimes you have to realize that it's gone to hell and you need to find your own happiness.
If I ever get married it'll hopefully be for life, but if the man cheats, beats me, or anything like that you're damn straight I'll leave. If that makes me a bad person who can't keep a commitment, so be it. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:36:26 PM |
See, that's what makes marriage "Marriage"... but unfortunately, according to stats (which I previously posted) women aren't capable of sticking to their vows... their word is crap, their commitment is crap. And it's all too easy for the self-proclaimed "unloved wife" (whether real or imagined) to cut and run with no-fault divorce, and to stick the man good with the female-biased court system
Statements like this are 100% stereotypical.... So, your going to blame women for divorces and say men have no responsibility? Come on.... It's equal between both sides... What do you think is going on out... Guys go to work, come home... Be perfect and the wife immediately leaves and goes out and cheats... Grow up... Geesh... Exactly how naive do you really think the world is? | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:22:51 PM | Cohabitation=Renting month-to-month. Marriage=Buying a house. See the difference?
Prenuptial agreement=Making sure that Nobody gets taken to the cleaners in case of a divorce. | |
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