| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 1:43:36 PM | yvanth, despite the "canadian" post after yours, you still seem to be having the same problem as some usa people, let alone your age. i'm almost 60 and i never had pressures to marry or have a big wedding. my first wedding had me in a t shirt at and he in his overralls at my grad school--an ivy league one at that! my second as mentioned was a riotout potluck with many "important" people attending.
this is a complex world today, with many more pressures. or maybe, like my mother used to say, it was "always" there and we just didn't know it. if you are a person of substance, you will need to find someone of similar bent. i know they do exist. unfortunately too many younger people are falling for increasing commercial hype. many are learning the hard way.
that being said, there is never a guarantee. people change, some hearts are broken, some have great marriages or partnerships, some have great work, some have great kids and family. this is about life. often you learn the most from the transitory things. if one thing is secure, another may not be.
just be committed to the learning and also to the serving of others. if you do, your life will be well spent and hopefully you will find a great partner in the course of it all. whatever your spiritual connection, be it a formal G-d, mother nature, the larger picture, the big bang--just don't miss that entire forrest (withing the pattern of nature) while you worry about some of the trees.
i have no doubt you will find the right one. but it takes practice. if it turns out not to be permanent, it means a better possiblity afterwards. just take the risk and don't live in a life of fear. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:27:11 PM |
When women can provide the same legal obligation for men as we currently do for them (according to law), then we'd consider it. All debts accrued in a marriage are shared 50/50 in a divorce, as well as the assets. This includes taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me.
The idea that men somehow get "cleaned out" comes from the idea that in the marriage partnership, they own everything and women make little or no contribution. In a community property state, everything accrued from the date of marriage is held equally by both parties. The partners share equally. Inheritances are exempted. They belong to the party who received them, as long as they are not comingled with community assets.
This is only fair to both parties involved. If a woman is staying home caring for children and a home, she is not lazing around doing nothing to contribute. I have had a career and been a stay at home mom, I assure you the latter was a lot more work, and it's not like you get off at the end of the work day and get to become a vegetable either.
The reason that women file for the majority of divorces now, is that most of them are not completely financially dependent on men. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:38:00 PM | All debts accrued in a marriage are shared 50/50 in a divorce, as well as the assets. This includes taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me.
50/50... riiiiiiight. 
Here's another shocking revelation (for those who haven't seen):
Divorce Myth 10: It is usually men who initiate divorce proceedings.
Fact: Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women.
Bottom line is - the courts are biased towards the women... and from the sounds of it, women have a real difficult time committing to "'til death do us part".
The whole deal is a joke from a man's perspective. Especially knowing that the majority of women (that's two-thirds, mind you) cannot be relied on the commitment to stay in a marriage.
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:43:39 PM | I'd like to meet some of these men who were cleaned out in their divorces because I've never met any of them. Most of the divorced women I know get NO help from their exes with child-rearing expenses, didn't keep the house, and hardly got anything.
And superlizard, that may be the case, but something I've noticed is that men will stick around in a bad marriage because he doesn't see how much it sucks. Once some (not all, of course) men get married they stop trying to show the woman they used to romance and show their devotion to so much that they are loved. It goes stale, and they don't see it.
Also, if you try to talk to them about what you are unhappy about (I've had to deal with this with boyfriends), they get defensive. They say you're being dramatic, stupid, and high maintenance. If someone stops giving one person what they were giving before the vows were exchanged, and they refuse to fix the problem, well... you see where that is going... | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 6:54:27 PM | The only reasonable need to have any sort of legalities between a man and a woman is to protect the kids (if any) and make sure they're provided for... that's it. And obviously, that doesn't involve fleecing the male so the **** ex-wife can drive around in a new car and live off alimony checks while she's lazing around all day watching Oprah.
Both men and women today should be able to pull their own weight, pay their own bills and manage their own finances... separately.
Have marriage, but keep the damn legal system and the gov't out of it. No-fault divorce is a cancer on our society, and it affects everyone. Yeah, that's right: marriage is ruined. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:07:03 PM |
Once some (not all, of course) men get married they stop trying to show the woman they used to romance and show their devotion to so much that they are loved. It goes stale, and they don't see it.
And to that I have to say, "for better or for worse".
That's no excuse for a schlub, but if you made those vows, you'd better stick to them.
And vice-versa for men.
See, that's what makes marriage "Marriage"... but unfortunately, according to stats (which I previously posted) women aren't capable of sticking to their vows... their word is crap, their commitment is crap. And it's all too easy for the self-proclaimed "unloved wife" (whether real or imagined) to cut and run with no-fault divorce, and to stick the man good with the female-biased court system.
That's why marriage today isn't really "Marriage". | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:15:23 PM |
See, that's what makes marriage "Marriage"... but unfortunately, according to stats (which I previously posted) women aren't capable of sticking to their vows... their word is crap, their commitment is crap. And it's all too easy for the self-proclaimed "unloved wife" (whether real or imagined) to cut and run with no-fault divorce, and to stick the man good with the female-biased court system.
Well, some people don't have that bitter, jaded view.
Men leave women for reasons like that too. If a woman is going out and having sex with a random guy every weekend, wants to stay married, refuses to touch her husband, and refuses to change, should the man stick around because he said "for better or for worse?" How many men would stay in a situation like that? I don't know any. It's important to work at it, but sometimes you have to realize that it's gone to hell and you need to find your own happiness.
If I ever get married it'll hopefully be for life, but if the man cheats, beats me, or anything like that you're damn straight I'll leave. If that makes me a bad person who can't keep a commitment, so be it. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:36:14 PM |
Well, some people don't have that bitter, jaded view.
Correction: Factual (and therefore realistic) view... the statistics are right there under your nose, so no use trying to deny them and pretend they're not there by calling my view "bitter". It's also a disgusted view.
but if the man cheats, beats me, or anything like that you're damn straight I'll leave.
Infidelity and abuse are definitely marriage-breakers. Feeling out of love cuz your hubby forgot to bring you flowers, or cuz you're having a particulary rough "time of the month" isn't. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 7:36:26 PM |
See, that's what makes marriage "Marriage"... but unfortunately, according to stats (which I previously posted) women aren't capable of sticking to their vows... their word is crap, their commitment is crap. And it's all too easy for the self-proclaimed "unloved wife" (whether real or imagined) to cut and run with no-fault divorce, and to stick the man good with the female-biased court system
Statements like this are 100% stereotypical.... So, your going to blame women for divorces and say men have no responsibility? Come on.... It's equal between both sides... What do you think is going on out... Guys go to work, come home... Be perfect and the wife immediately leaves and goes out and cheats... Grow up... Geesh... Exactly how naive do you really think the world is? | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:22:51 PM | Cohabitation=Renting month-to-month. Marriage=Buying a house. See the difference?
Prenuptial agreement=Making sure that Nobody gets taken to the cleaners in case of a divorce. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:29:03 PM |
Prenuptial agreement=Making sure that Nobody gets taken to the cleaners in case of a divorce.
Unfortunately, so many pre-nups get nullified during divorce proceedings that you almost have to wonder if they even do what they're supposed to. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:32:09 PM | | women by nature tend to be insecure. They have to be in order for them to need fiancial securitty, to look for marriage, and to look for long term versus casual sex | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:40:00 PM | An unpleasant divorce has not made me bitter and cynical...call me crazy..
and where are all these women that ended up with houses, cars and the ability to stay home and collect alimony and watch Oprah...Dang, I will have to get a new lawyer for my next divorce.... | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:46:07 PM |
Unfortunately, so many pre-nups get nullified during divorce proceedings that you almost have to wonder if they even do what they're supposed to.
Yeah, I used to think a pre-nup would cover my ass... and lo and behold...
Some girl here mentioned something about putting divorce lawyers out of a job - I'm all for it. | |
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| GoodDancer:
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:47:28 PM |
women by nature tend to be insecure. They have to be in order for them to need fiancial securitty
Really?
Actually it's more instinctual. Women find men attractive who can provide, and Men find women attractive who are young and beautiful. This is actually thought to be a remnant of the instincts of our early ancestors who developed these traits in order to survive and perpetuate the race.
So by your logic, do successful men by nature tend to be *shallow* because they like young attractive women? No....
The reality is, a successful guy with a beautiful woman is just a good match. It works quite well for me :) And trust me, I'm the farthest thing from insecure that you have ever seen. | |
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| GoodDancer:
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:57:03 PM | yes it's instinctual but an emotion or logic has to drive behavior. There is no logic in wanting only long term relationships because by definition sex feels good, so emotion of insecurity has to come into play so she is insecure that he will leave her after sex so wants long term to nail him down.
insecurity explains many female baheviors, pettiness, jealousness etc. however i will say that american women are much less insecure than women from other countries, they are more assertive whichi like | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 10:59:45 PM |
Statements like this are 100% stereotypical.... So, your going to blame women for divorces and say men have no responsibility? Come on.... It's equal between both sides... What do you think is going on out... Guys go to work, come home... Be perfect and the wife immediately leaves and goes out and cheats... Grow up... Geesh... Exactly how naive do you really think the world is?
Point me to one post where I claim men have no responsibility for a divorce.
You're obviously making incorrect (and ridiculous) assumptions for the sole purpose of telling someone to "grow up" or equivalent.
Yeah, like I believe men are perfect in a marriage. Whatever, bubba. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:32:43 PM | Holy crap!
Reading all these posts makes me hate the world all of a sudden!
I think the OP's altered point is that some people get married for the wrong reasons and I agree with that 100%. You get married to someone because BOTH people love each other and want to make a commitment to work through whatever problems and continue to be the best versions of themselves for themselves and for each other.
It is sad when people get married because "we have been together the customary 2 years" or "All my friends are married so I want to as well" or many of the bad reasons to get married. Doing something because you "should" is never a good reason to do anything.
I think a lot of people both male and female have such a bad perception of marriage because over half of the people have bad experiences and they are highly emotional situations. You get them back in the dating field along with the media perception out there about marriage and you get people out there with unrealistic and emotionally idealized perceptions on both side of the debate. This post is no different.
I think people should get married for the right reasons not out of obligation or some artificial time table or because everyone else is doing it. I think that was the original gist of the OP and that is a valid point. Maybe just maybe if people got married for the right reasons we wouldn't have this feeding frenzy of divorces and bitter / highly emotional views on something that is supposed to be a positive thing. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/17/2008 12:01:53 AM | Most women have it drilled since we were young.
Like sports are to most men. Marriage is to most women. It's like a man getting with a women who tells him... now that we are dating you can never go to a sporting event or watch one on T.V. ever! A man would feel the same, as a women would feel when she discovers that her man is not EVER going to marry her.
A man would leave! So a woman might also leave. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/17/2008 9:41:17 AM | | I was flipping a coin the other day......... and it hit me, these are the same odds that a marriage will ever work out,lol. Why bother? Especailly for men who own businesses or have more than average assets | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/19/2008 8:59:47 PM |
Basicly it seems a lot of women would ditch a perfectly reasonable loving guy after a certain amount of time if he hasen't propose. Why? I'm not against marriage in any shape or form. But why would you leave a guy that loves you and treats you right because he doesn't want to marry or hasen't ask within a certain period of time.
Is it insecurity? Control freak? No trust? Extremely religious?
OP: While it is certainly possible to have 100% committed individuals over the course of their lifetimes, it's not likely. Marriage is a contract that protects either party (usually the wife) from exploitation as the relationship grows.
So to answer your question, it is due to the uncertainty of the future. So insecurity and trust play a large role, but there's nothing wrong with that. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/20/2008 10:47:50 AM | > Marriage is a contract that protects either party (usually the wife) from exploitation as the relationship grows.
I'm not sure what the basis is for a statement like that because the state will not enforce the terms of the contract (whatever they are), and instead will aid the party who wants to abrogate said contract whenever that person feels like it.
So it's not much of a "contract", to say the least. It's really little more than notarized shacking up since in most of the substantive areas covered by family law it makes no difference whether a couple is actually married or not. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/20/2008 10:51:14 AM |
now that we are dating you can never go to a sporting event or watch one on T.V. ever!
That's no big loss to me. | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:00:27 AM |
Just date exclusively and live separately, so that nothing gets mixed. That way no gets taken...and if someone wants to leave, well they're already not there. Voila!
I'm so clever.
hey wait! That was MY idea!!!!
damn it IS clever, isn't it? | |
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| Why the need for marriage?
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:10:33 AM | ^^^What can I say Ms. Ravenstarr - you sometimes inhabit my brain. I really swore I thought that up myself!
What I did think up was the duplex idea. But I realize in this day and age, even a duplex is a bad idea if things don't work out. Too close, and even if you both own it together, it's a hassle.
Better to keep your property, belongings and addresses separate. Living separately (about 2 blocks apart so you save on gas but can't spy on each other) guarantees that. | |
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