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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/16/2008 11:22:50 PM | I think if we argue that God is made of some physical material, that implies pantheism. God is just then the physical universe, and he is made out of the same essence or 'stuff' as that which makes up the universe (or one might take Spinoza's view, that all that exists in the universe is one mode in which the divine essence of God manifests itself).
I prefer the classical theistic view that God's essence is absolutely transcendent and therefore unknowable, and 'what' God is, is best described only in negative terms. Positive terms like those attributing form or body to God, are not literal truths about what the divine essence is or how the divine essence exists, but are metaphors or symbols which tell us something about some divine attribute traditionally abscribed to God, such as wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, and so on.
There has been a lot of debate by theologians down the ages, from Augustine to others, whether or not Moses actually saw the divine essence. I think what the scripture implies is that Moses did somehow 'see' God, but this did not mean in the process God was reduced to a finite object or subject knowable to the human intellect. The scripture seems to try and retain the sense of God's mystery. The same seems to occur in the analysis of God in the theological traditions of Islam and Judaism; scriptures tell us the truth about God, but they don't unveil the ultimate mystery of God, or what God's essence or nature is. If this were possible, it would reduce the infinite God to something finite and knowable by human understanding, in other words, reduce God to an object. All three monotheistic religions seem to try and eschew speculation about the divine essence, and instead focus on the divine attributes and what we need to know about God's relationship with us so we can be saved.
I personally think it is foolish to try and understand God's essence, which is absolutely infinite. What seems more enlightening from a spiritual perspective is to try and understand the divine attributes and how they co-exist in the oneness of God's nature, and how we can see the different divine attributes in different ways. We should also approach the Absolute with a degree of humility, keeping in mind the gulf fixed between the infinite and finite. As Nicholas of Cusa said rightly I think, no matter how high you ascend in trying to contemplate God, we will only see God as an enigma or as a distant image dimly reflected in a mirror in this life. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/17/2008 12:47:05 PM | this is not so much my opinion as my personal expereince
God is real and yes He did manifest Himself thru His Son Jesus Christ - in the flesh.
That is a very direct answer, and again, is not my opinion - but is in the Bible which is the Word of God.
Im ready to be 'hit' from all sides here - so bring it on! Just to anyone who may be anti God/Bible - please dont be rude, that is all i ask and thanks. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/17/2008 10:32:23 PM | This is how I formulated this opinion from my youth and not any specific doctrine though I was raised a Baptist.
Either we had a purpose prior to this earth or we don't and either we will have a purpose after this earth or we won't.
Now in the various forms of the Trinity doctrine of God, there is no explanation for what could have been prior to this earth and there is no explanation for what might be after this earth. The reason for this is because the basic Trinity doctrine teaches God is nothing and everthing and is without form or substance. In human terms...God, to Trinitarians, is a "Nothingness of intelligence." That base definition will not allow them to scripturally elaborate on what was or what will be because that information cannot exist because of the definition. But my opinion does give definition to the possibilities of what might of been and why things are now and just what the future will hold after this life.
That information explained through the Trinity doctrine never gave me comfort. The terminology of the scriptures thus became irrational to me in regard to me being a "son of God." Or he being "my Father."
What became explainable was how God regarded himself to a single species upon this planet and not to any other species. He said he was the creator of ALL THINGS that are. But over and over again in the scriptures from the OT to the NT the human species was THE ONLY species with whom he declared a closer connection to then any other species. We were the ONLY species that he called "SONS and DAUGHTERS." Now that gave me comfort. But a question remained; if form is not an issue with God because he has none, then why create one form above all others on this planet? Why create one form and call them sons and daughters but not do it with the rest of the living creations? Why was God such a respecter of living creations in this capacity?
Well I found my answer in the opinion that as I have form, so must also God have form. We were created in his image and likeness. We were then told our purpose was to become "...perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." In Col. 1:16 it states....."For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" The part of "...visible and invisible...." cinched it up for me. We can't see the wind but it exists. It has substance. We can't see certain light waves but we know they exist. They have substance. We can't see sound waves but we know they exist. They have substance. You can't see a smell but you know it exists. They do have substance.
Well, we can't see God and a few of the authors of the Bible have declared him invisble. To me that does not mean he does not have form or substance. And form and substance is not restrictive as Consiq demonstrated as God being Jesus in a body of flesh was able to continue being a God of influence in all aspects of his being. God also showed he could have a form after his death but before his assension to God the Father....(see the story of his appearence to Mary in Luke.) He then showed he could still have a form and still be God when he appeared to the twelve in a body of flesh and bone minus the blood as the apostles touched his non-bleeding wounds. He even ate and drank in that form. Then he assended to heaven in that form. So even that shows that God could have a form/image like us and still be God.
My opinion.... | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/18/2008 1:14:48 PM | "I AM, and have ALWAYS BEEN."......GOD[/]
Seems if one believes in GOD, one must also view that HE is not an 'essence'
as we perceive , but as Creator He must be of the same essence as the universe.
Considering one can travel as far as we are able to imagine to the outer boundaries
of the Universe, only to wind up back at our starting place [theoretically]
I then would conclude that God's essence is all around us, He appeared at will
in forms known and recognized by mortals .
Ancient texts and writings could explain it all only in their limited mentality,
though one wonders.....have we really advanced that far? | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/18/2008 11:02:11 PM | | i,m not going to quote bible versus i,m just assuming you,ve read the whole thing god is spirit and we must worship him in truth and spirit so he has a spiritual form and it must be an image somewhat like ourselves because he made man in his own image moses wanted to look on gods face up the mountain but god told him no man can look on his face and live that he would die so he allowed moses to see his hind parts so god must have a spiritual image as far as the holy trinity and the seven spirits in revelation that he sends out to the seven churches god must be able to partially separate himself in the spiritual form and bring it all back to himself in his spiritual form this is a hard thing to fathom since were in a physical form and cannot separate part of ourselves like he can anyways that,s my own interpretation anybody wish to debate on this feel free terry | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/19/2008 8:33:36 AM |
And form and substance is not restrictive as Consiq demonstrated as God being Jesus in a body of flesh was able to continue being a God of influence in all aspects of his being.
montanon its not that I don't understand the form and substance of God as a reality, I just disagree with your opinion of what this spiritual form and substance is.
Faith also has form and substance as God does.
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Have you ever pondered the form and substance that faith embodies?
Ancient texts and writings could explain it all only in their limited mentality,
though one wonders.....have we really advanced that far?
The scriptures were not written with the purpose, that a race of mankind with a limited mentality could understand. They were written by men who were inspired by the Spirit, and it wasn't to make people understand better, it was so people wouldn't be able to understand them unless the Spirit allowed them to understand.
The scriptures were written in a way for the purpose of keeping the meaning hidden from the world, and the worlds ability to understand.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:50:54 AM | 1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ah! That's very evident
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/19/2008 10:27:43 AM |
The scriptures were written in a way for the purpose of keeping the meaning hidden from the world, and the worlds ability to understand.
Hidden meaning?
Quite clear are the old testaments writings that actually makes one not able to
follow the 'laws' as written.
Should we follow the writings verbatim, one could expect to wind up in jail.
Some dastardly resolutions written in there, of course, should fanatical minds
insist on Draconian interpretation, as we have seen over time, Koresh, Jones
come to mind.
I can only conclude the writings as written to reflect their time of mental back-
wardsness, seems those who proclaim to be 'enlightened' are only interpreting
as written, the results quite horrifying . | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/19/2008 12:33:39 PM | "montanon its not that I don't understand the form and substance of God as a reality, I just disagree with your opinion of what this spiritual form and substance is."
Ok so just consider what I consider.
God created all things visible and invisible. By human terms (the only thing we have to work with) that would insinuate that as we know for a fact (all things are made up of some form and substance of matter) that all things visible and invisable would have some kind of form and substance in the physical aspect.
I now take this matter back to things pre-discussed by myself. God took time after his death on the cross to shown himself in a image of substance that Mary could see but was not allowed to touch BECAUSE he had not ascended to his Father.
It was only AFTER his resurrection and ascention to the Father that he came back and allowed the apostles to see he dwelt in a body of flesh and bone. Blood did not flow through his resurrected body because blood is the lifesource of mortals, not a spiritual body as he was now in. He walked in it, talked in it, ate with it and allowed the apostles to feel his non-bloody wounds. The afore-mentioned has a strong connection to Matthew 27: 50 to 54. The main reason these verses were recorded (the only instance in the entire Bible) was to show that those spirits who departed their earthly bodies in death would again be reunited with that body in it's purifyed state so the spirit would become a spiritual soul instead of an earthly soul. I know you don't believe that but consider the angels that appeared to Abraham that were fed and given drink. Consider the angels that appeared to Lot and the other people who saw them as humans and not invisible spirits.
That fact remains that there is more in the Bible that alludes to humans and God looking like each other then there are verses that speak contrary to that belief. And it is not a blasphemous thought.
God is not the author of confusion nor does he decieve or lie. He said he is our Father and we are his sons and daughters. He created humans after that same pattern he expects us to believe about of him and us. It was so important for us to understand this connection that he made a law....honor thy father and mother.....he created us intelligence and physical and linked the two together as a soul and then showed this connection would continue sometime after our physical deaths. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/19/2008 2:11:03 PM | Thank you Montanan!
The Ascension is a good bit of evidence to help us understand to a limited
degree the mystery that will surely elude us.
The New Testament certainly translates way differently than the Old.
Spiritual is how I can best understand The Almighty.
He transcends physical form, yet at will takes any form to visit those few who
recorded it.
The OLD TEstament is rife with confusion, The Christ came to save the world,
thus His story recorded as The NEW Testament.
He spoke with clarity, albeit 'Parables' but His message always the same. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:49:13 AM | God created all things visible and invisible. By human terms (the only thing we have to work with) that would insinuate that as we know for a fact (all things are made up of some form and substance of matter) that all things visible and invisable would have some kind of form and substance in the physical aspect.
Absolutely incorrect!
John 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
montanon you are not reading what I have shared but yet you continue to debate this as if I have not already responded from scripture..
So I will chew my cabbage twice again in hopes that maybe you will read it this time.
The invisible powers and principalities do not have a substance matter in the physical aspect,
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The invisible powers and principalities have no physical aspects that we can war against .
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/20/2008 10:32:23 AM | "Absolutely incorrect!" Just like me...according to your thinking Consiq.  I do understand what you have been saying....I was raised with the thinking you believe with.
You wish to state that there are 'things' invisible that have no substance but according to the science of men (the only thing we have to work with in regards to form-substance) all things are made of some form of matter. Now it's well and fine that we as humans want to believe that nothing can be made into something but we have as yet not shown that to be. It always takes something to make anything. The base of that logic is what gives us ideas of how things were accomplished by God because we have nothing else to work with to figure out how God did create all things.
You stated...."The invisible powers and principalities do not have a substance matter in the physical aspect," I have been living with this teaching all my thought. The problem with it is that it is a thought. Not even the Bible backs it up because the Bible does not speak of matter or non-matter.
The very first verses of the Bible state God was there. It does not state God created himself, a nothingless intelligence form nothing to beome something. That is human thinking. Not what the Bible teaches. The first word used for what God did is the word "created." God created. We go by the words we understand. For us humans, the the author....Moses, he used that word 'create' to describe what God did in the begining with these heavens and our earth that exists. No where in the four books that are said to be from him did he ever restate that God revealed to him that all that is came from nothing. He never stated that. Neither did any other author. But men today and before our time insinuate that is what happened. They guess and surmize that is how all things came into existance, including God himself.....all from a nothingless to become a something. But that opinion, that theory, it has never, was never validated by a single verse saying explicitly that in definition. That is a traditional teaching of mankind to explain the unexplainable.
Ephesians 6:12
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
You realize that nearly all the points in the above verse deal with matter and form whether it be a ruler of darkness, principalities, powers, spiritual wickness? We see spiritual wickedness every day. Can you tell me the last time you didn't see spiritual wickedness? A ruler of anything insinuates a form of being that is in charge of other beings regardless of form or shape. We also know that power has form and substance like the rays of the sun, the force of the wind, etc. Even vibrations have substance that we will say we have felt from another person regarding how they were feeling and what we were picking up on. that is usually termed energy and we know energy in all forms has mass. This verse actually (to me) deals with the wrestle we have that deals with making choices that confront us daily as to whether we will choose to do well or good or we will choose not to do well or good. It does not deal with physical form or substance or lack of it.
"The invisible powers and principalities have no physical aspects that we can war against."
Not actually true according to a story that Jacob records that happened to him. I am aware this is probably a parable to you and others. But Jacob described wrestling with another man. At the end of the story Jacob tells that he had seen the face of God though many think Jacob meant he wrestled with an angel in physical form representing God. For the messenger never told him his name. This story corolates with a story in Revalations where John recorded a vision he was given that showed a war in heaven predating the physical earth wherein spiritual forms warred with each other till the war was done and one third of the heavenly host, (substance being used again) was cast to the earth as their place to be. I realize you will see this as a parable.
John 4:24
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
Have you really given thought to this verse and what it states?
Take this part only....."God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit." Let us say that is all the verse states. There would be no misunderstanding because we know as God is a spirit so are we but housed in flesh and blood. But though we be in a mortal form with an eternal spirit, we can still worship him by our spirit, not our body. But then John tosses in that word "truth." We must worship God not only in spirit but we must worship him in truth. Why did John feel a need to toss these two words together when it was not needed to be sone as he did it? All he had to say to make his point was....."God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit." That explains everything. But John did toss in another word to help us understand that not only as spirits (form and substance) were we to worship God but in the truth of what is taught of God, we are to worship him. This has more corolation to God creating us in his image and likeness and then telling us to be perfect, even as he is perfect then it has to do with the implyed....God is a nothingless intelligence and so also are we. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:13:06 AM | montanon
I understand that your entire agenda in this thread is to attempt to disqualify the reality of a triune manifestation of God. You think if you can prove that God is made of matter, that you can separate the matter in the father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which would verify that the triune manifestation is in error. Sorry won't work, even if I entertain your theology, this doesn't make any difference...... because you cannot prove that Christ is made of a different substance matter than the Father and the Holy Spirit.
I don't feel it necessary to explain what 'spirit and truth' actually mean, because I know you won't see what I see as being 'spirit and truth' in this case. | |
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| Does God have physical substance and form like us?
Posted: 5/21/2008 9:20:17 AM | | My only agenda for this thread is by what is in the scriptures, not so much of what our opinions are though they help, of what does the Bible teach of this matter? It is obvious if all verses and statements that give credibility to God having form and substance are seen as parables and having a directly different meaning then what they actually say, this train of thought would mean nothing in the Bible could be taken literally and the whole thing is nothing more then a great fictional story of some time era that was added to untill someone decided enough had been wrote so they took all the avalible pieces of this story, fit it together and we now call it the Bible. | |
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