| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 1:57:32 PM | I must be missing something... I rechecked but maybe I still missed a post... Could someone help me out?
Where is it argued that matter is an illusion? I've seen it said many times that matter is just another form of energy but an illusion? I did say some believe change is illusion but matter? I'm gonna have to go and check again.
Everything is energy... Energy has no opposite that we have been able to percieve (unless new evidence came around that I missed)... To undo work still takes work. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 2:08:41 PM | LOL.
rhymes too.....apparantly, when our human body dies, there is a specific amt of weight / known as our spirit/ departing our body!!
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 3:23:38 PM | and yet the amount of matter in the universe doesn't change - those atoms are busy little things. Always lending a hand in constructing something else.
Ahh! The great circle of life! | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 3:24:53 PM | STONESTONGUE
According to the Buddhists reality as we see it is an illusion as everything same from nothing. Therefore everything is an illusion. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 6:39:31 PM | According to the Buddhists reality as we see it is an illusion as everything same from nothing.
Hmmm... I've been studying Buddhism for years... I didn't get that out of it... Buddhism teaches that separation is an illusion and that all is one.
One thing Buddha taught was that suffering is not an illusion, therefor, he did not teach that all is illusion.
One of the basic tenants of Buddhism is that emptiness is form and form is emptiness... This goes right back into the want of a vacuum.
There is no such thing as "nothing". | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 7:46:47 PM | | Thats strange cuz I've been quoting from what I have been reading. I do agree with you about the ONE thing, though. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:43:04 PM | The only absolutes are relationships. And relationships can go on forever.
Not even a blackhole, which considers itself pretty darn absolute, can withstand relativity eventually proving it's not.
Sorry blackhole. But you to be proven at some point, you don't actually exist. lol | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/2/2008 8:53:40 PM |
Thats strange cuz I've been quoting from what I have been reading. I do agree with you about the ONE thing, though.
Actually, we could both be right... Different people get different meaning from alot of what the ancients have said... That's why there's so many differing branches of Buddhism and any other type of spiritual way.
Being unique aspects of the one, we are bound to find unique meanings in some teachings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism
Some consider that the concept of the unreality of "reality" is confusing. They posit that, in Buddhism, the perceived reality is considered illusory not in the sense that reality is a fantasy or unreal, but that our perceptions and preconditions mislead us to believe that we are separate from the elements that we are made of. Reality, in Buddhist thought, would be described as the manifestation of karma, part of the process of impermanence, similar to the Hindu concept of Maya.
Other schools of thought in Buddhism (e.g., Dzogchen), consider perceived reality literally unreal. As a prominent contemporary teacher puts it: "In a real sense, all the visions that we see in our lifetime are like a big dream [...]".[1] In this context, the term 'visions' denotes not only visual perceptions, but appearances perceived through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes and tactile sensations.
So I guess it depends on how you look at it... The Buddha was Hindu before he enlightened himself and is a reincarnation of Krishna in that religion so I tend to go more with the description I bolded as I believe it sounds truer to what he would have said... I'll also point out that I don't find the idea of an unreal reality confusing, just meaningless... Illusion or nay, we are here... Wherever here is.
My way mixes Buddhism, Taoism and even a bit of Hinduism so I got a different meaning than many from Buddhism... I will not really call myself a Buddhist because of the label itself... The Buddha said not to cling so why should I cling to Buddhism type thing. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:32:36 AM |
Actually, we could both be right... Different people get different meaning from alot of what the ancients have said... That's why there's so many differing branches of Buddhism and any other type of spiritual way.
Being unique aspects of the one, we are bound to find unique meanings in some teachings.
LOL! I was saying similar to a friend of mine about it. I guess its like those three wise men analogy or whatever you call it. BLIND men, sorry. One on the tail, on e on the trunk one in the middle. The elephant thing or whatever. (Sounds like that start of a joke!) | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 5:48:15 PM | The overbearing attitude of man continues, we basically have no idea how the Universe started, it's limits or it's purpose. We only know what we grasp or basis of fact as we understand at this given moment in time. Scientists have found only newer questions behind the answers to each problem.
Some things are absolute, some are only theory.
Fact the universe is expanding, conjecture what it expands into.
We cannot comprehend nothing, we cannot comprehend existence before time, we struggle with the concept of time parsay.
Divine power, accident, purpose?
If divine why a universe so vast just for us?
If accident, what was the cause?
If purpose, whose or what?
I agree on one thing, we in our lifetime are not going to know | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 6:01:33 PM | hmm, now it got me thinkin about..."accident", what was the cause?
if accicdent?/ what was the original course?
way..../to many variations / for my mind .
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 8:39:16 PM | This is a fun thread... I'm just having more fun and I don't claim to know anything absolutely.
The overbearing attitude of man continues, we basically have no idea how the Universe started, it's limits or it's purpose. We only know what we grasp or basis of fact as we understand at this given moment in time. Scientists have found only newer questions behind the answers to each problem.
Well, to be fair, we have many ideas on how the universe started... We don't however have any clue if the presently feasable ones are true... But yeah, for every answer you get, you make way for more questions... That's kinda part of the fun... Could even be a clue.
We cannot comprehend nothing, we cannot comprehend existence before time, we struggle with the concept of time parsay.
We cannot rightly comprehend what doesn't really exist... The only reason we can't comprehend an existance without time is that we live in a world of change (we measure change partially by using time... Time is a tool)... Even if you could "freeze frame" a moment in change, you wouldn't notice because there would be no chance for recognition.
If divine why a universe so vast just for us?
I wouldn't say it's for us as much as it is Us... But then even divinty is meaningless as we're all just as much a part of it all as whatever created us.
If accident, what was the cause?
I guess it depends... If infinity is real, it was bound to happen eventually anyways once the potential for it couldn't remain hidden in our "nothing" and had to actualize in space... If infinity isn't real, "change" is not absolute in our universe (Evidence says otherwise... Everything changes and is unique that has ever been witnessed).
If purpose, whose or what?
There are alot of possibilities... If we all took the time to think about it and come up with a detailed and original possible purpose for a God/force/singularity, each one would be unique in some detail or other... I think that's part of the purpose.
I agree on one thing, we in our lifetime are not going to know
But we don't even know that... There could be a world wide awakening right around the corner... I have a feeling stranger things have happened... No matter where It all came from, we came from the same place if you look back far enough... It only makes sense that we should realize it. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:12:39 PM | | I would like to repsond ok I know you said "the big bang is the starting point for everything" you also mention in your opinion that there was "no before" but in my opinion where did the big bang originate there is no way to resolve this matter for the simple fact that something always comes from something else there are many theorys on this topic but frankly everyone can say oh this came from this and then that came from this and so on and so forth but in the end no matter what conclusion you may have come to on how something began is always going to end in whatever made the beginning for something ,began from something. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 9:27:42 PM | We're all Doctor Samuel Beckett from that show Quantum Leap. 
Although my brain is so swiss-cheesed I honestly don't remember which one I am.  | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:02:09 PM |
cannot prove my belief about the start of the universe
Don't feel bad. No one else can either.
BUT, since the man asked, here's my theory for the "for what it's worth" department.
It is my belief from my infinitesimally small knowledge of black holes, that the big bang is simply the other side of (or end result of) matter from elsewhere being sucked into a black hole and spit out the other end - i.e. big bang. Now the reason I think that is as follow. We know black holes have such an incredibly strong gravity pull that it can even pull in light at the event horizon and compress all matter it pulls in to infinitely small size. So it's theoretically possible that all matter (from elsewhere) was sucked into a black hole and because it was so highly compressed, it was spit out at the other end with such an explosive force, that it allowed for the spread of matter throughout our universe. The reason that makes sense to me is that it has been stated that EVERYTHING needed to form our present universe was contained in that big bang. It must have been so for everything to grow from that. I think there are an infinite number of dimensions and universes and we were just formed from the leftovers of the destruction of another universe. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
But I guess we'll all find out in another 500,000,000 years or so when our sun dies out, forms it's own black hole and we'll all get sucked into. Fasten your seat belts please. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:25:41 PM | Bluesman2008, I could be wrong but I believe black holes disipate over time, and everything they suck in, is belched back out in some form or another. They don't transport energy far away, they simply attempt to contain it.
They are stubborn ones, but if Hawking was right, they aren't infallible.
A cosmic calculator number crunched enough relationships, that it thought it had found the ultimate shortcut, and a sun turns into a black hole. Unfortunately it didn't take into consideration everything else out there. And through asserting itself on everything else out there, the resulting interactions eventually prove the shortcut did not to work.
And everyday I meet people who exhibit this same type of behaviour.
We are as what we are a part of.
The only way to survive indefinitely, is to relate to anything flawlessly.
Or I'm just being silly and naive. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 12:18:37 AM |
everything they suck in, is belched back out in some form or another.
That's my point. The black hole, if it did dissipate over time, wouldn't really be needed any more once it did it's thing.
The only way to survive indefinitely, is to relate to anything flawlessly.
I wouldn't want to survive indefinitely. My social security would run out much too soon then I'd REALLY be in a black hole LOL. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 12:41:24 AM | | I believe in the Big Bang ..........but what questions my mind,,,,,,is if God made the earth and all ........Why was every thing that was made , was made so imperfect....All animals will attack one another or their own kind, same for man..... and everything living must die.......Same as the big bang,,, what was started will end, and no one knows when....... | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 3:43:15 AM | [Actually, it's tied together with Space, Matter, and Energy. Can't have any without all of them.]
Beau-G ;
This reads a lot like Christianity, ( The Father, Son and Holy Ghost) You can't have one without the other. 
Just thought I would like to throw my 2 cents in, besides this is some of the best thread reading I've seen in a long time.
Personally I like to go with the Theosophy point of view. Mind you I don't follow or believe everything they have to say, but for the most part a lot of it makes sense and it does follow a more diverse attitude. I like the way they include science and religion in a cohesive manner. I tend to believe that who, what and where is all cyclic.
They don't stand-by nor ignore all religions and quite a few of their theories blend well with what we know from a scientific perspective, some of which were theorized long before the modern scientific community even drew up their theories. Such as multiple universes, parallel realities and other demensions etc, etc, etc...
If anyone is interested just look into the writings of Madame Blavatsky and if nothing else her books make make for very interesting reading. Like I said earlier I don't take it all to heart, but for a Free Thinker some of it makes more sense than what have as far as leadership goes in our country or world for that matter.
The more mistakes I make the more I learn, so I will continue to learn for the rest of my days.
Enjoy your Life.
Later,
Bob | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 6:40:48 AM | | The big bang was only the starting point for everything "from our perspective." We can only observe what is around us -- like a fishbowl, this universe reflects us. The fact that we can imagine something outside of the fishbowl lends credence that there is something outside of this universe and beyond our time. So "before" the big bang is just as likely as the here and now. What that "before" entails is completely up to imagination. So is the right question, did we come from nothing -- or -- are we just a small part of everything? | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 8:15:51 AM |
You all seem to comtemplate this topic on Einstiens theory of relativity.
well i ceratinly dont, quantum physics and string theory goes a long way to explain things.
The debate that the universe came from nothing is rather very interesting. Matter is only an illusion?
"At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe" Thus matter does exist.
natter exists, i agree, sure does - perhaps the person should have said that
matter is a human perception rather than an illusion.
there are ways human perception can be confused.
also if nothing comes from nothing, then perhaps illusion comes from illusion...
the baryogenesis reaction that you refer to, is certainly very logical and based on sound scientific knowledge.
from the duck
in west ozz | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 8:39:59 AM |
I would like to repsond ok I know you said "the big bang is the starting point for everything" you also mention in your opinion that there was "no before" but in my opinion where did the big bang originate there is no way to resolve this matter for the simple fact that something always comes from something else there are many theorys on this topic but frankly everyone can say oh this came from this and then that came from this and so on and so forth but in the end no matter what conclusion you may have come to on how something began is always going to end in whatever made the beginning for something ,began from something.
you dont seem to know much about quantum physics, the nature of time or anything,
you seem to believe in denying that anything has truth unless it able to resolve everything else.
some buddhists deny themelves and also deny that they believe in anything else either.
whats wrong in not being able to have a single explanation for everything in the universe?
if everything is so cyclic, wheres is your proof?
give us a proven and tested example of perpetual motion then..... | |
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