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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:37:20 AM |
I believe in the Big Bang ..........but what questions my mind,,,,,,is if God made the earth and all ........Why was every thing that was made , was made so imperfect....All animals will attack one another or their own kind, same for man..... and everything living must die.......Same as the big bang,,, what was started will end, and no one knows when.......
people create god and the definition of perfect.
you suggest it is imperfect - thats a judgement of the whole universe
take a look into a clear night sky,
how can you describe the beauty of that with one word as such and from such an earthly perspective and the judgement to be fair?
the duck
from
west ozz | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 11:50:21 AM | Just to clarify... the Big Bang does not claim that the Universe came from "nothing." The Big Bang claims that the Universe came from a big bang, that's all. Most scientists, to my knowledge, interpret that it started as a rapidly spinning singularity. But a singularity is not the same as "nothing;" a singularity has a finite mass / energy. So I see no reason to disregard claims that the Universe may have been something else before being a singularity, just as black holes were not always singularities, either... and eventually will no longer be singularities again.
As far as "matter"... I'd have to agree that the word "matter" has become rather outdated, and is more a human perception than anything. Perhaps we should stick to using the word "mass" in place of it, somehow, at least when speaking in scientific terms. After all, "mass" is at least widely accepted as a type of energy. "Matter" is just used to refer to anything that has mass and, generally, is made up of atoms... it's kind of a vague and nonsensical definition. Using the word "matter" is like using the word "stuff." | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 4:37:23 PM | Do not confuse spiritualy with matter!... Matter (mass) I believe is a masculine truisum, and Spirituality (Light) is a Feminine truisum. Without Mass ...Light cannot be created...without light...mass is a blind Nightmare...
If you get this ( I reckon ....0.0001%) of the population...Enjoy... As for the rest of you... Argue amongst yourselves! | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 4:38:36 PM | It's strange how I can relate with most views here but that mine conflict with all of them in one way or another.
Now I don't understand how folks can say there was no thing or time (change) before the big bang... Unless you think this universe is the only universe which would be very odd... If one can exist all possible variables have potential to exist... This is true about any thing ever witnessed and at the same time every thing ever witnessed is unique... Every snowflake, fingerprint, rock and tree are unique but there are an infinite amount of possible snowflakes, fingerprints, rocks and trees... Why would universes be so different than absolutely everything else?
Why would change or time be considered not to exist before our particular big bang? If there is more than one universe (which is most likely in my opinion) then obviously there was change before ours... Just because our version of time didn't exist doesn't mean nothing was happening... I guarantee things were changing somewhere.
No offence abarzac... I end up disagreeing with everyone on some point or another.
if everything is so cyclic, wheres is your proof?
The evidence is in comparison... There isn't anything ever observed which doesn't go in cycles but that something may not go in cycles isn't proven.
give us a proven and tested example of perpetual motion then.....
I believe we're living in it my friend... Behold the multiverse.
No thing stays the same, every thing is unique and the stuff things are made of cannot be destroyed, only changed... Sounds like infinity to me. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 6:32:22 PM | nitefever;
if God made the earth and all ........Why was every thing that was made , was made so imperfect.
Imperfect? What is perfect? Could anyone be more you than you? If not then you are the perfect example of you... You are perfectly being you just as everything else is perfectly being what it is.
We are learning the only way we know how... Perfectly. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 7:44:39 PM | EVERYTIME I LOOK UP AND SEE THE STARS AND THE SKY. I THINK THAT I AM PART OF THE BIG PICTURE OF LIFE, I DON'T CARE HOW IT ALL STARTED. THAT IT ALL CAME FROM NOTHING, IT MAKES NO SENSE, THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM SOMEWHERE. WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHERE. WE ARE HERE, THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:53:50 PM | | I'm interested in the thought that our capacity to think evolved in an environment where there was no answer to the question "where did I ( the world/the Mass) come from? perhaps it is only possible for our kind of intelligence - or any for that matter - to evolve and or exist in such an environment where there are permanent unanswered questions. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/4/2008 10:06:15 PM | I recently tried to pick up Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History In Time"..
And so far what I have read here seems to make more sense. Well, less numbers and physics!
What I would like to know, do our brains which have electrical synapses strong enough to transcend space, time and light?
If our brains had the capability to learn and ask and answer a lot of these questions concerning our Universe and Earth, then surely there must be more potential for the brain?
Or are we all just wasting that potential in our electronic age? | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:50:26 AM | re: stonestongue
No offence abarzac... I end up disagreeing with everyone on some point or another.
no offence taken.
mostly, i find it frustrating not to be able to looking at things from the same perspective as others.
i think i probably have the same view of the whole thing as you, only from a different perspective.
The evidence is in comparison... There isn't anything ever observed which doesn't go in cycles but that something may not go in cycles isn't proven.
i agree that there seems to be a cyclic nature to everything. the way time and space are curved, etc among other things.
however, there doesnt appear to be anything in this universe that has been discovered that exist in a cycle that is stable and without change.
for example the dinosaurs among other creatures are extinct.
they have no birth/life/death cycle anymore as part of the evolution of life on earth.
I believe we're living in it my friend... Behold the multiverse.
No thing stays the same, every thing is unique and the stuff things are made of cannot be destroyed, only changed... Sounds like infinity to me.
i also believe there is a multiverse, and only one. also that it exist as muliple universes.
if there is such a thing as perpetual motion, then it would exist in the multiverse as a whole i suppose.
but this is where i different somewhat to what you have presented, i believe that we are trapped in a single universe as part of the living human experience.
which is only the tiniest slice of the single mulitverse. the multiverse collectively consist of countless numbers of universes. all the individual universe's have at least one common imaginary (imaginary in terms of known science) dimension linking them together as one multiverse.
it is within that imaginary or pseudo dimension where the mysterious force or wind behind the beginning of the multiverse predominantly resides.
however i dont belive that the multiverse will continue to exist forever necessarily, it could end completely and then be rebirthed again.
regards
the duck
from west ozz | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 6:59:21 AM |
mostly, i find it frustrating not to be able to looking at things from the same perspective as others.
i think i probably have the same view of the whole thing as you, only from a different perspective.
To me, having a unique perspective only reinforces my viewpoint... And yeah, it sounds like our vantage points are fairly close... Pretty cool considering how far apart we are on the Earth.
however, there doesnt appear to be anything in this universe that has been discovered that exist in a cycle that is stable and without change.
for example the dinosaurs among other creatures are extinct.
they have no birth/life/death cycle anymore as part of the evolution of life on earth.
In a cycle that is stable and without change... May I suggest that up til now we have missed the obvious? The cycle of change itself is the cycle you speak of (in my opinion) and the potential for change is eternal... Even if everything stopped changing or moving, the potential for change and movement would continue to grow until it needed space to continue... (Or in my more romantic view, until the Tao has another bout of self discovery)... I see it all as a fractal with the potential for the fractal to exist as the starting point and not the physical beginning of the pattern.
i also believe there is a multiverse, and only one. also that it exist as muliple universes.
if there is such a thing as perpetual motion, then it would exist in the multiverse as a whole i suppose.
That's pretty much what I mean except for our multiverse being the only one... I believe infinity eternally grows to accomodate change.
but this is where i different somewhat to what you have presented, i believe that we are trapped in a single universe as part of the living human experience.
Actually, I do too... This is the chunk we are meant to explore just as other parts of Us are exploring others.
it is within that imaginary or pseudo dimension where the mysterious force or wind behind the beginning of the multiverse predominantly resides.
I just call it the Tao and sometimes the realm of potential.
however i dont belive that the multiverse will continue to exist forever necessarily, it could end completely and then be rebirthed again.
And the very notion that it was rebirthed would make it different by default... It wouldn't be the same multiverse simply by way of experience.
I don't know... This part I especially recommend reading with a grain of salt... I was suffering from untreated (I was too stubborn to go to hospital) salmonella poisoning and was without food or rem sleep for over 5 days... I had what you might call a vision of what I believe is the source and I felt like I downloaded information from It.
I posted it in the religion section when it happened and have posted it a couple of times since so if it's not the first time you've seen it, my appologies.
I have changed a bit of the message towards the bottom as I'm constantly updating my beliefs... Just because of the nature of this thread and that I value all of the views presented, I'd like to share it here... You guys can call me a nut if you like... You wouldn't be the first and it kinda makes me smile anyhow.
THE LAW OF INFINITY
David Adamson
**Sameness and difference must be observed in all things absolutely from a perspective neither subjective or objective. In other words, you have to feel it.**
There must be something everything has in common. (uniqueness or change)
There can not be two things exactly alike. (snowflakes, sand grains, universes)
One must be able to accomplish all.
All must accommodate the one.
Every(one)thing eventually must become the one(sum of all things).
Every(one)thing eventually must become nothing (no thing).
No thing can dictate to the one or the all.
No thing can be better than anything else.
When one thing is added, everything must change.
As soon as there is change, there must be difference.
No thing may stay the same forever.
For all to be enlightened, one must stay in the dark.
For one to be enlightened, all must have been in the dark
There is always and will never be all paradoxes.
Paradox is the realization of absolute confusion or change of set patterns.(One is truly the loneliest number).
When confusion(chaos) is added, everything changes(moves, grows, ect…)
A new cycle continues for the new change as all accommodate the one and one accomplishes all.
The many universes equals one multiverse. Conservational laws are saved in a multiverse and do not apply to universes one by one.
Multi mutiverses are covered by the paradox.
Potential energy is the great constant (or "nothing" is absolute). It makes way for change (or space for time).
“Have fun and don’t hurt anyone, but let no one hurt you.
We have learned all we need to about the Age of Suffering."
This is pretty much what I believed anyways, but was never able to communicate it before I was sick.
Sorry for the long post again! | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 11:04:07 AM |
I just call it the Tao and sometimes the realm of potential.
interesting comments from you stonestongue. there could be multiple multiverses i suppose, but i cant get myhaed around that one.
find it too hard to comprehend.
isnt tao the same as jesus christ - just that it is personalised?
according to christians jesus is the alpha and the omega - meaning the beginning and the end - is it the same as tao?
isnt tao what others call god, allah, etc?
or is it that tao is that common domain where mysterious force exists?
regrads
the duck from
west ozz | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 12:47:37 PM |
The only absolutes are relationships. And relationships can go on forever.
I thought death and taxes were the only sure things in life | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 4:40:08 PM | Thanks abarzak.
isnt tao the same as jesus christ - just that it is personalised?
Not really... The Tao can be said to be the Way of all things... Now Jesus said he was the Way, but he also said no one may reach the father except through him... According to Taoists we are all just physical manifestations of the Tao meaning Jesus was no more closer to the source than any of us.
The Tao has been called the ultimate reality in which all things are born... It is called the universal energy which makes up and maintains all... It is also the relationship between the inner world and the outer world (self and universe).
according to christians jesus is the alpha and the omega - meaning the beginning and the end - is it the same as tao?
The past is just the path to Now and the future is just Now before change.
The Tao was always there and had no beginning... Where would the original speck of potential for anything come from? And then where did the potential for that come from?
The Tao has no end yet as the future has not been created yet... Taoists maintain that if there is a creator god that the Tao was there first... So it wouldn't be Jesus Christ that is the personalized Tao but any creator gods... The philosophy is very different here as well... Christian belief implys that the future is set which leaves little room for decision making whereas mine says that our free will is what creates the future and that it is not set.
isnt tao what others call god, allah, etc?
The Tao would be the stream which gives birth to God but while God is searching this new found consciousness, the Tao continues on.
or is it that tao is that common domain where mysterious force exists?
It's the domain and the force which resides in it.
I had a dream once where the Tao was shown to me as a bucket filled with an infinite amount of buckets of water knocked over by its own growth. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 7:13:57 PM | There was no "before the Big Bang." Time didn't exist until after. Neither did Space, Matter, or Energy.
The Big Bang event created Space, Time, Matter, Energy, and everything else.
To repeat- there was no "Before."
The Big Bang is the starting point for Everything.
Actually, that may not be true. The Big Bang was the start of our universe, but its being speculated that it still had to 'come from somewhere' and it may either be the result of what comes out of a white hole or the remains of a universe that existed before this one. (Or I suppose both).
I recently tried to pick up Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History In Time"..
And so far what I have read here seems to make more sense. Well, less numbers and physics!
What I would like to know, do our brains which have electrical synapses strong enough to transcend space, time and light?
If our brains had the capability to learn and ask and answer a lot of these questions concerning our Universe and Earth, then surely there must be more potential for the brain?
Or are we all just wasting that potential in our electronic age?
Hawking isn't light reading, especially if you have poor math skills. If you want to tackle the same subject matter broken down into (relatively speaking) layman's terms, you should check out the books by Dr Michio Kaku or visit his website at mkaku.org | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/7/2008 10:34:38 PM | If brains had the power to transcend time and space, then how come we choose to take our time in remembering where we left our keys.  | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/8/2008 8:07:11 AM |
The Tao has no end yet as the future has not been created yet... Taoists maintain that if there is a creator god that the Tao was there first... So it wouldn't be Jesus Christ that is the personalized Tao but any creator gods... The philosophy is very different here as well... Christian belief implys that the future is set which leaves little room for decision making whereas mine says that our free will is what creates the future and that it is not set.
thanks.....
the tao philosphy is very good,
although what you have said suggests that all gods are created or born from tao.
this does not make any sense and is not logical.
if tao is so powerful to create all things, then why couldnt tao manifest itself as a single force of creation or entity as such described as god or allah or jesus (tao having given up power to exists as a human on earth).
what has birthed or created tao? this just isnt logical....
tao must be the same as god/allah - the creator of all things...
afterall, the one true god - if it exists - isnt supposed to be created.
how could any created god be anything else but a false one? | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/8/2008 9:17:05 AM |
although what you have said suggests that all gods are created or born from tao.
this does not make any sense and is not logical.
if tao is so powerful to create all things, then why couldnt tao manifest itself as a single force of creation or entity as such described as god or allah or jesus (tao having given up power to exists as a human on earth).
That's actually what I just said... Creator gods are manifestations of the Tao.
According to Taoists we are all just physical manifestations of the Tao meaning Jesus was no more closer to the source than any of us.
By us, I am including God.
what has birthed or created tao? this just isnt logical...
Ok... And what birthed or created any gods? Potential existing on its own merit makes a heck of alot more sense than saying a diety does.
if tao is so powerful to create all things, then why couldnt tao manifest itself as a single force of creation or entity as such described as god or allah or jesus (tao having given up power to exists as a human on earth).
Because the Tao has no cravings... When it folds in on itself, a paradoxical form of curiosity makes it aware for a time, but the Tao isn't constricted by frames of time so it may do a self examination in a frame of time and it can keep going at the same time... God exists only in that specific frame of time.
tao must be the same as god/allah - the creator of all things...
Yes... And so are we. But the Tao is unpersonalized... When the Tao folds in on itself and becomes self aware, gods are born but only the personalized part of the Tao (God) will stop to examine the self... The true Tao keeps going.
God is part of the Tao but is not the original Tao... The Tao has no need for self awareness and holds no attachments to anything.
The Tao is no more self aware than water in a stream.
afterall, the one true god - if it exists - isnt supposed to be created.
Really? And you say I'm being illogical? Well, I'm sorry but I will never see a "true" god as one that had a personality which had no time or chance to develope.
how could any created god be anything else but a false one?
So by this line of reasoning are you a false man? My contention is that God (if It exists) came from the Tao becoming self aware... I didn't say the Tao created anything... The Tao is creation itself.
Potential energy is the true constant (As shown in vacuum creation)... Not the speed of light (We can manipulate it) and not any gods (No gods have been proven to exist). | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/8/2008 5:32:08 PM |
Just to clarify... the Big Bang does not claim that the Universe came from "nothing." The Big Bang claims that the Universe came from a big bang, that's all. Most scientists, to my knowledge, interpret that it started as a rapidly spinning singularity
Actually the theory states that the beggining was a point of infinite mass not finite mass. Another way to look at the theory would be to point out that if all the matter in the known universe were contained as energy in a point smaller than a grain of sand, then there wouldn't be much room for anything else, not even for atomic structure to form. And since the area where the universe will exist is currently empty and has no material existing in it what so ever then this place, wherever that may be, is not even considered space is and certainly devoid of time. Since the basic meaning of space is an area of distance between two objects and no objects currently exist then there is no space as we know it. Since the basic meaning of time must be measured as movement of said object and there are no objects moving to measure time, then time has yet to exist as well.
As others have already pointed out this does not negate the possibility that something did already exist before our universe came into existance. And as other theorys suggest there can be more than one universe.
If you have read my previous posts you will know that I do not neccasarly agree with big bang, I am only trying to explain the basics... | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/8/2008 6:06:59 PM | | Did you guys ever do the experiment in school where you had at least two balloons connected, but only one at a time could be inflated? The Big Bang could be something like this. Dont forget the dark matter and dark energy and that most of the stuff science is getting into know is stuff our senses cant pick up. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/8/2008 6:59:39 PM |
Dont forget the dark matter and dark energy and that most of the stuff science is getting into know is stuff our senses cant pick up
Great point Adam, perception and illusion are points this thread is great at exploring, how about a look into my dark and twisted mind....
At one time our perception of the world was completely different. Using our senses we determined that since the ground was flat and stable and the Sun, Moon and Stars moved over our head we knew that the earth was flat and that we were the center of the universe. Keep that in mind for a moment...The Center of the Universe...
What are the observations that lead us to big bang? What we do know is fairly simple, the moon orbits us, the earth orbits the sun along with 7 other planets, (Use to be eight)
the sun moves along with other stars in the galaxy around a galactic center. Now here is where big bang starts to lose me. By using our expert observational skills, the same skills that gave us the earth is flat, we are making measurments that are telling us that the universe is expanding. We see clusters and super clusters of galaxies forming into super structures with expanding bubbles of empty space between the structures. We see all of this expanding away from us. Read the last statement again, All of this is expanding away from us. Okay, we are not exactly claiming that we are the center of the universe, but it sure does sound like it.
Problems? We can't see the edge of it, we are dealing with data that took billions of years to get here, big bang itself implies a finite amount of matter, that means the universe should be measurable yet....
The Universe has no center, no edge and no shape.
Do we understand gravity? No
Do we undersand electromagnatism? No
Do we undersand the nuclear strong force? The weak force? No...
We see these four forces as something that is measurable and because we can measure them we believe we understand them, but we do not. We don't know why atoms stick together or what drives them apart, we only know the measurable interactions that cause them to. All of our instruments are designed to measure the flow of electricity from positive to negative, yet recent science has said that it flows the other way, who is right? We can take a three dimensional graph and describe gravity, but we still don't understand why mass causes this.
We have a better understanding of things and this understanding has lead to many advances in technology, but to me the four forces and expansion itself is in no way any better than calling the earth flat. It is all still mearly an observation, these have only to have changed our perception of reality.... | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/9/2008 8:37:50 AM |
God is part of the Tao but is not the original Tao... The Tao has no need for self awareness and holds no attachments to anything.
The Tao is no more self aware than water in a stream.
sorry stonestingue but i dont agree...
this is quite false, and is without any logical basis.
you are getting god/ allah etc mixed up with tao.
tao is spirit, it does not consist of any created thing as water in a stream as such.
so there is no thing as tao as such as how you perceive it.
tao, god and allah, etc are the same thing, call it nothing if you will.....
people created their own belief/non-belief, whether they believe in religion or not.
and tao does have awareness, tao is the conciousness of everything and where everything had originated.
beauty is perceived within the mind of living consciousness never by anything else.
if it does, give me an example then.... how could tao ever possibly create the beauty in all things without awareness?
everything that exists actually cames from a single infintely powerful and creative conciousness (tao or god/allah or mysterious force).
the gods or deities you refer to are all created by man just as are all other spirits created by men to divert man from the one true spirit (tao, god, allah, etc).
regrads
the duck from west ozz | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:26:38 PM |
Actually the theory states that the begining was a point of infinite mass not finite mass.
This isn't actually true. Relativity suggests that the Big Bang was a point of infinite density, not infinite mass. Consider: If the Universe had infinite mass, then it would have an infinite number of stars and galaxies. If it had an infinite number of stars and galaxies, then it would have an infinite amount of light. If it had an infinite amount of light, we would all be blind. This is known as Olber's Paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox
I'm pretty sure all our best models work with a Universe of finite mass. But at the moment of the Big Bang, it was of course all compressed into a single point (singularity) of infinite density, or so I've heard the theory goes. I agree that the "space" surrounding the Big Bang would be devoid of any actual space or time. The way that I prefer to think of this space outside the Universe, whether or not you're talking about the moment of the Big Bang, is simply as the future.
My reasoning: Einstein described the Universe as an expanding balloon, but expanding in the fourth dimension, which is time. We are ants living on the surface of the balloon, and can only see the Universe around us which is also on the surface of the balloon. Other galaxies could be dots on that surface, and as the balloon expands, we can see the dots moving away from us in all directions. But we cannot look below the surface and see the true center of the Universe*. To apply this model to reality, we simply add a dimension: Instead of a two-dimensional Universe plane that is curved into a three-dimensional balloon, we imagine (to the best of our ability) a three-dimensional Universe that is curved into a fourth-dimensional shape, the fourth dimension being, once again, time.
So essentially, the center of the Universe is not the location of the Big Bang but the MOMENT of the Big Bang, and the space into which our Universe expands is the future.
* While the center of the Universe may no longer exist in our current timeframe, I do agree that we can nearly see it by looking farther and farther into space. After all, "looking" is only a term for our eyes collecting photons of light. Photons that have traveled a longer distance left their respective stars a longer time ago, which shows us an older view of the Universe the farther we look. But we are not getting any closer to seeing the true outer "edge" of the Universe; rather, we are getting closer to seeing the center of it.
Anyway, I agree with much of what is being said. But I guess I don't agree with all of it. | |
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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/10/2008 5:44:15 PM | All of this theory of where our universe came from...
We can speculate forever, but I believe a better question to ask is "why," and not "how?"
The big bang is sound in theory, but it doesn't ask a deeper question of why it happened. I have heard a few people mention the multiverse which led to the existence of the big bang. The problem with that theory is quite obvious; Where did one of these parallel dimensions come from? The same argument can be applied applied to having a "universe before ours." We simple need to ask why instead of how.
I see two possible conclusions about what happened before the "beginning" of the universe. Both of which lead to a higher power which we cannot understand.
The first of which is quite simple;god created us. Further discussion is a moot point.
The second, which I believe is a bit more sound, requires further elaboration. Prior to the universes creation, there was a period "before" it. The most natural name I could up for this time period would be the chaos dimension. The chaos dimension would have no concept of time, space, or matter. This time frame would represent all existence prior to the universe's creation. Since time is not a part of this chaos dimension, we can simply qualify for the entire period prior to the universe's theoretical beginning. Of course, something must caused the chaos dimension to collapse into a single point and create the universe. Either god, or some quantum event we cannot grasp, must have been the cause.
Of course, if we follow this line of thinking, one would need to ask the question "Where did god come from?"
Perhaps there are some things we will never understand... | |
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