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| Universe Came From Nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 12:04:12 PM |
This isn't actually true. Relativity suggests that the Big Bang was a point of infinite density, not infinite mass.
Your right of course Other Dude, typo on my part.
The big bang is sound in theory, but it doesn't ask a deeper question of why it happened. I have heard a few people mention the multiverse which led to the existence of the big bang. The problem with that theory is quite obvious; Where did one of these parallel dimensions come from? The same argument can be applied applied to having a "universe before ours." We simple need to ask why instead of how.
Good point, so if we ask how then are we not going to ask how times infinity? For each answer we get there are more questions, and questions on top of questions. Suppose for example we find out that M theorys membranes work and do exist. Then where did they come from? Where do they exist and why? What is beyond them? We can never have the answer we seek, for there will always be another question to ask... | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 3:19:55 PM | I ask one question: To build a car, did it just come to be or was it engineered? of course it was engineered. We didn't throw a bunch of parts in a box, and it exploded into a car, there was a design and thought process behind it.
No. The car, like every other engineered object, did not just appear. It evolved into its present form as man invented better and better means of transportation. Complex objects like computers, clocks, radios, telescopes, etc., evolved as man's technical knowledge evolved. Complex objects do not just appear they evolve from the simple to the complex just like Nature. If anything complex engineering proves evolution, not creation. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 6:58:17 PM | I just think the universe is "timeless."
What I mean by this is that time does not matter to the universe, there was no beginning, there will be no end, just forever.
I like my theory, it's simple. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 8:35:35 PM | I just think the universe is "timeless."
What I mean by this is that time does not matter to the universe, there was no beginning, there will be no end, just forever.
I like my theory, it's simple.
Almost a hundred years ago there were two popular theories: A Universe like the one you describe, or a Universe that started at a specific time (the Big Bang). All evidence points towards the Big Bang theory. There was a point when the Universe was "created" and there may be a point when the universe ends (although this will not be by contraction). | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 9:43:30 PM | It begins with a state in which there could be no state before it.
It ends with a state whose nature cannot lead to any future states.
There is no end. You'll always have the possibility of more than one copy of the final state interacting with each other in order to create a new dimension, which in turn begins a new cycle of expanding dimensional interactions that are even more complicated, and more lengthy than the last.
There is no end to time, only a beginning.
There is no end.
No end.    | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/22/2008 10:31:08 PM | According to the creationist, a watch does not just appear it had to have been created by someone - a creator.
In Genesis God said let there be ____ and then it said he made _____. He did not say just "let there be." He said "let there be" and then he made it.
To make something requires that what is made is made out of something. Much like a the watch a creationist says must be made by a creator out of the parts that make up a the watch. Therefore, what god made had to be made of something - the things that make up what which was made.
6 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night 16 God made the two great lights,
God created the great sea monsters ( the only example of God creating)
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: 25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind,
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
According to the creationists, to make something means to make it out of something.
Therefore, according to them the Universe did not come from nothing. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/23/2008 1:50:28 AM | We know how to make virtual space.
We are on the path of creating virtual intelligences.
They may very well be eventually capable of creating their own virtual space.
One of them might succeed in creating a virtual existence that makes ours look like a children's puzzle. One that further creates virtual intelligence beyond our scope of comprehension.
If and when it does happen in this universe, was it the first time something like it ever happened in existence.
Will it keep going. It doesn't take much energy to do.
The use of time can be pretty efficient when the information used to calculate it is compressed enough.
Humans have already been working on ways of storing information using molecules.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7350281.stm
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/23/2008 10:09:31 AM | I speak and read paleo-Hebrew. The original language of the OT.
There is no such belief in the OT except where mistranslated and is likely where your question stems from. Something from nothing is entirely a Christian belief.
The word “bara” is often mistranslated to mean create.
It actually means “fatten”.
In the beginning, if one reads the text, the earth was void – It was already here.
The basis of your question is questionable, therefore all responses and conclusions are questionable. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/23/2008 7:20:43 PM | | Note: the big bang is a theory...an after the fact deduction you can never deem tangible...it must be reduced to an illusion as well. Big Bang Or primordial slime, it is impossible (No matter how you revolve or resolve the logics applicable) for something to come from nothing. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/23/2008 9:00:25 PM | Lucky Me: Never thought about it that way. You definitely have an abstract way of thinking. A very interesting theory.
Prettydola: The Big Bang Theory does not imply that something came from nothing. It only implies the beginning of the universe as we know it today. It has been proven that energy cannot be created nor destroyed which is why I think you made your statement. It can only be converted into different forms so who's to say the Big Bang wasn't just a transition point in which the universe underwent a dramatic change. It has been theorized that the energy was always there and the Big Bang was just a transition to the universe as it is today. Nobody can say that this theory is impossible because the truth of the matter is that mankind does not possess the intellegence to prove or disprove much of anything pertaining to the universe and you must remember that "proven" theories do sometimes change. For example the Newtonian Principle of absolute space and time was disproved by Einstein's Theory of Relativity. On top of that some theories work in some places and do not work in others. For example many of the laws proven in the quantum world do not apply to the macroscopic world. There are way more factors involved here that we are qualified to recognize and we are a long way from ruling out the Big Bang Theory or any other one for that matter. Just out of curosity are there any theories out there that you particularly see as a possibility? Please note that I'm not trying to be condisending or argumentative I just like to hear different views and perspectives. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:23:15 AM | | Chris: Make it phosphorous, nitrogen or any other element that could have been...it was something...and you were right. I didn't assume the big bang presumed nothingness,void or absence of matter...just that there has to be some intiating source for those elements powerful enough to have caused a big bang that initiated transforming matter and intiating it as we know it...i am definitely not a big bang fan...but science, as amazing as it is, has created a fairy tale of its own...as the big bang theory can not be proven(Hypothesize it all you want OR can you?)...Yes, i said it. IT Can not be Proven...disproving it is therefore out of the question...i'm not saying it should be ruled out as probable...but pointing out that it should recognized for the fairy tale after the fact deduction that it is. There goes my point of view Chris...thank you for yours...feel feel to refute it. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/24/2008 5:27:15 PM | The early hot, dense phase is itself referred to as "the Big Bang",[21] and is considered the "birth" of our universe.
Maybe it would help if we didn't think of it as a "Bang".
Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle-antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[25]
This is where all the matter in the Universe came from (Theoretically).
...few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion Kelvin..
That's hot!!!!
After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen);....
379,000 years before atoms where created!
Quotes from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
It's fascinating if you can grasp the Theory. Personally I need to read it again, then re-read it, then re-read it... you get the idea.
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/25/2008 11:01:11 AM | | Prettydola: I guess I somewhat misunderstood the point you were trying to make cause I 100% agree with what you said in reply. I thought the point that you were trying to make was that the big bang was impossible which was clearly not the case and I agree that pretty much every theory out there is somewhat of a "fairy tale" theory until it is proven (which will probably never happen). I can by all right's claim and theorize that the universe was created by some sort of magical leprechauns (a bit extreme I know. haha) and no one could really disprove or prove that theory which makes this topic of conversation such an interesting thing to discuss. Although if I made that claim I'd probably be some sort of crazy idiot. haha. Anyway I would love to prepare some sort of rebuttle for your last statement but unfortunately I totally agree with it. haha. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/26/2008 2:01:33 AM | I this article of mine might contribute to this discussion. If we say that the universe comes from nothing, I would say that it comes from something called Zero dimension.
I tried to make it short so, first off since Einstein we have 4 Dimensions (See chart below). Everyone thought it was a little strange to have time as a dimension. Now again we are confronting the same learning and reshaping of our values and knowledge.
Known Dimensions
Length
Width
Height
Time
New Dimension
Zero Dimension
I realize geometricians and physicists have called “point” a 0 dimension with no measurements except time. However, the word point is misleading. Giving us an image in our mind of something actually existing. Whereas if it were 0 dimensions then there would be nothing at all. A point being a highly misrepresentative word, and also confirming in peoples minds the wrong thing. I understand any word is going to misrepresent nothing but I will carry on with 0 dimension.
Just like everything comes from something else or on another’s back so to speak. This Zero dimension would be the universe’s building ground. Metaphorically of course. I only use the word “ground” as an analogy. Really there would be nothing at all. Therefore everything could take place. Do you see my reasoning? Nothing at all would exist, therefore everything could come, or happen in that.
So this dimension less place, being totally free of all conformity to laws, space and time. Would be absolute freedom. The building ground and productive maker of all the rules and discipline of the Universe. If it wasn’t total freedom then it couldn’t be the productive maker of the Universe.
Some philosophers have said that the Universe is 1. This is wrong because if you divide the 1 in half, then you get all kinds of tiny little pieces. 0 is indivisible. 0 is the number of the universe. 0 is not reductio ad absurdum because there is nothing further to go back to. You have finally reached the end which is pure nothingness, and pure potential. Without dimension Zero nothing could exist. No laws, dimensions, time or space could exist without a back drop.
So this Dimension 0 is more important than any other dimension because it is the first cause because cause and effect don’t exist in it’s realm. This proof is proof by definition.
So to use this dimension in equations, we could use the number 0. Zero being the exact number to represent it because nothing can affect the Dimension 0. We could use + 0, or - 0 in all of our equations. So, for example,
(E=MC2) + 0
(E=MC2) - 0
Which still equals the same answer. So therefore dimension 0 is present in equations, but has no real effect until we start multiplying and so forth. I am a philosopher and not a mathematician so I will not go into detail in numbers for this paper.
So therefore dimension Zero would be completely not visible or recordable on any instrument, but determined to exist due to analytic judgment and a priori. Therefore we should include it on our list with time and the three other dimensions. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/26/2008 2:52:33 AM | darkknightofgotham, how would dimension zero sustain itself?
It's basically just 1 value, like a number. With no other dimension how can that value behave in anyway that it will be anything other than the same value? Time is essentially states whose inherit nature demand phase transitions. Because dimension zero has no dimensions to define states, it doesn't have any phase transition potential to change it's property.
I am not trying to shoot you down. I am just asking questions because I want to know what you think, as it is something I think about as well. And I want to understand your thoughts better.
Now I'm just speaking off the top of my head.
If you just had random values, or points, everywhere, like total chaos, somewhere logical dimensional relationships between values could occur.
And out of those, maybe some create dimensional states which demand phase transitions.
Then you might get a bubble of time, whose values could relate with other stationary values sitting in the chaos, as it expands. Even if the bubble stops because it's dimensional relationships don't allow any further states in it's phase transition, it's earlier expansion could have initiated other phase transitions or more bubbles of time. A chain reaction could occur.
I need to sleep. Everything I said is probably nonsense. bah | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/26/2008 10:27:22 AM | | Darkknightofgotham: I've thought about this "backdrop" idea of yours before. Of course it was a way more dumbed down version but it was basically the same idea. The part I don't understand about that theory is if time was the only dimension in the universe at that time where did the other dimensions come from? As many of agreed in this forum before something cannot be created from nothing. Something always had to be there. It may be a lot different now than it was then but the energy was always there. Now being that matter always has some kind of physical dimension how could those dimensions not have existed? Was it a completely matterless universe? And if it was matterless and the universe was composed of pure energy how would that energy be measured? It definitely could not be measured as a quantity of time. There would have to be other dimensions in my opinion. Also, I believe that certain physical laws must have existed. How would the universe create itself without these laws? I think it would be utterly impossible for the universe to compile itself without some sort of "guideline" to work off. For example: How could planets or anything with mass for that matter be able to build themselves without gravity? It seems impossible. Care to explain? | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/26/2008 3:42:46 PM | | I don't think what you're saying is nonsense Vancer. In fact it is the first time i can agree with you without laughing. But Zero can sustain itself, in every existence or world. In fact it is the one thing that can do so perfectly, always there but can never be. It will be when there is nothing. It will be when there is something...but the problem is...it is always out of reach, out of touch...intangible...invisible...a perfect cover for scientific limitation and a perfect god for whomever chooses. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/26/2008 10:45:20 PM | Perhaps the Homo Sapien brain is not sophisticated enough to comprehend the origins of the universe. Maybe, we're arrogant to even think that we could. I'm not sure.
Seems to me that everything must have come from nothing as the subject suggests. This is a thought that scares me in a way, but there's no real reason to fear it.
Why do I exist? Because something created me.
What created the thing that created me and all matter in the universe? What created this thing and why? Further, why isn't everything completely different and even if it were, why would it exist in this different state in the first place?
Our species will never know the answer. I truly believe that out two-lobed brains are simply not capable of understanding the TRUE origins of everything. I'm not talking about the big bang and electron degeneration and nuclear chemistry (that stuff is relatively easy). I'm talking about the creation of the laws of the universe itself. If space is a projection of higher spatial dimensions, then what determines the laws of these projections? And what determines that? And so on...a leap in biological evolution is necessary to grasp this. It would be like a dog trying to figure out why an electric current is produces a magnetic field. It's not that dogs have zero intelligence; they simply don;t have the capacity to understand such a "complex" phenomena. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/27/2008 1:15:24 AM | I think some Greeks thought it started with Void and Chaos.
Then they had babies. And then they had babies with their babies and/or their babies had babies with each other.
*head asplode*
I vote it all started with tinfoil and a microwave. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:36:51 PM | “adamf73”? - Regarding this subject making an interesting bedtime read. Strangely enough most people’s paranoia kicks in at around this time. And so as our ancestors stared into the heavens many moons ago, may our feverish rationalising content us also. Maybe that is what differentiates us from other neighbouring species on this great planet - That we question what is out of our reach.
The universe - the womb of all life in the eyes of man. The universe that came from nothing. Like most of us have said, perhaps we are asking a wrong set of questions. Perhaps we should be questioning our own consciousnesses instead. Perhaps this would be a more ‘relative’ answer to what “adamf73” is asking. And in a way, maybe that is his intention - as our human spirit and human logic are rivalling complexities in themselves - matched only by what we allow from them - albeit, the universe as we prefer to label it.
In regards to “ForumBloom’s” first post, I guess we are not as compatible as we would like to believe - with our current mindset we are playing with ‘primitive tools’ and the universe is too abstract for that.
Yet we can for certain agree, as “Friendlione” has said, that we are not the definitive reality in this universe, or rather, on this planet for that matter. So what are we discussing here at the end of the day? That we exist or not? As as the thread initially questions everything before its birth, we should never necessarily presume the universe came from nothing. Unregistered and unrecognisable to ourselves yes, and by ourselves I mean by human logic, but nevertheless not by human comprehension. Logic has its limitations because man has to believe in limits - a fundamental flaw of late man we can firmly say in our honest opinion, as it tends to only favour the material reality.
We have become a fickle species in real essence - conditioning ourselves to believe in a ‘reality’ only through senses we have made predominant. Is it any wonder modern man finds this concept challenging? (rhetorical) Arguably, we could say our habitat has conditioned ourselves this way. And in modern times, in which “somuchtosay” infers to being the wasting of our potential in an electronic age, though less primordially, who is to say she, being mother Earth has conditioned us wrong, and that we will not achieve the same ultimate answer in the end? (rhetorical and hypocritical)
Inevitably, the way we are carrying on as now - adopting a material mindset to a concept immaterial to our own will only muster, a mere pop-up book version of the ‘real deal’. The pop-up book being religion in the literal sense, and the ‘before the big bang there was nothing mindset’. As “angelah7” and many others have hinted, in order to grasp focus back to the thread’s broad question, nothingness is only what we would coin it as being, if we had no knowledge or comprehension of it - especially in prior to this so-called ‘big bang’... but I think if we just took a long ‘minute’, and turned off the distraction for a while, maybe we should give ourselves more credit where it is due. Perhaps we were and are, more intelligent than this. Conceptualising the mere ‘immaterial’ fabric of our own existence may still be an innate ability (as in the spiritual, antilogical sense here), and is something we have conditioned (unintentionally or not), to forget.
Communication has its compromises. Language fails to describe everything, but what all is out there, we are also. And as humbling as it may be, what “jerseygirl2007” has said here, “EVERY TIME I LOOK UP AND SEE THE STARS AND THE SKY. I THINK THAT I AM PART OF THE BIG PICTURE OF LIFE, I DON'T CARE HOW IT ALL STARTED. THAT IT ALL CAME FROM NOTHING, IT MAKES NO SENSE, THE UNIVERSE CAME FROM SOMEWHERE. WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHERE. WE ARE HERE, THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.” is indeed all that matters (albeit in capitals ). Someone once said the universe has made itself known to us - perhaps they were right, but it doesn’t change a single thing, because we have been it all along... as our innerspace and our outerspace are very much our, same thing. | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:08:35 AM | afishinthesea said:
Perhaps this would be a more ‘relative’ answer to what “adamf73” is asking
Getting there. Getting there . . . .  | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/4/2008 6:10:41 PM | | I'll take Vancer's Tinfoil and Microwave theory instead....It's almost there!...except...hmmm....how do you preclude some form of intellectual pre-existence from tinfoil and microwave...almost there.... | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:06:28 AM | | In a sense, the universe still is nothing. all the particles have antiparticles, all the forces have antiforces, etc. A physics professor once explained it to me as "The vector sum of the universe is precisely zero." | |
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| Universe came from nothing
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:27:47 AM |
In a sense, the universe still is nothing. all the particles have antiparticles, all the forces have antiforces, etc. A physics professor once explained it to me as "The vector sum of the universe is precisely zero."
I've never heard of an anti-force, but one large mystery about how our universe began is what happened to all of the anti-particles. Our universe is (as we now know it) is overwhelmingly matter. What happened to all of the anti-matter? | |
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