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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:48:07 PM |
is questioning cotter being anti cotter?
i think it isn't. couldn't be simpler than that. Wow, what's with all the personal attacks ... all the time?
your nation is an empire with a histroy of expansion. everything you have is built on the land of natives. give it back to them and then ask someone else to do the same, in that order. after all, "fair is fair", eh ;) That statement has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Why bother to make it?
in your case it's anti-semitism Nope ... being anti Israeli policies does not equal Anti-Semite.
i think you'll find in most cases that being anti israeli ties together with being anti jewish Maybe with some, but not with me. My Jewish friends are as adamant as I am about their feelings related to the current regime in Israel ... they abhor it. That doesn't make them Anti-Semite any more than I am.
most of the anti-israel terrorist groups tend to adopt nazi symbolism. A poor effort to once again label me as a "NAZI" which didn't work before and doesn't work this time. I'm not a Nazi.
OT ...
Again ... being anti-Israeli regime policies does not = Anti-Jewish and does not mean that one is "Anti-Semite" although as we see time and time again that people are labeled as such just because they challenge Israeli policy. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/19/2009 10:18:15 PM | RE Msg: 74 by cotter:
^^^The point was ... if a person is critical of American policies, that's not "Anti-Christian" or any other religion that is practiced in America ... right? In the same sense, if a person is critical of Israeli policies, that is not "Anti-Semite". Yup. But if your statements are to be followed in the same way, then you should be calling for every country in the world to put America on a trade embargo, and see how Americans like it when they cannot get water from Canada, or oil from the Middle East, or metals from Africa. That would make them stop treating Iraqis, Afghans and the rest of the world like slaves.
So staying with the topic of the thread ... questioning Israel does not = being an Anti Semite. Questioning Israel doesn't make you an anti-semite. Calling for their water to be cut off, making demands that the world should threaten them unless they do what Americans like you want, claiming they just want to take over the planet, just being a b1tch about Israelis, and not anyone else, not even acknowledging that the Palestinians have done damage as well as the Israelis like the UN has acknowledged, DOES.
I don't think it can be put any simpler than that.
No need to drag all that other crap in like you're always trying to do to draw the attention away from the actual topic ... okay? The Native Americans have nothing to do with it. There is absolutely no problem at all with my comparison. People do that all the time in every thread. You're the only one who complains about it, and then only when it's comparing what Americans do, to what you complain about, because America is much more abusive than Israel is. If you don't like being a hypocrite, then leave America. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/20/2009 5:16:21 AM |
There is absolutely no problem at all with my comparison. People do that all the time in every thread.
Well.....no....not exactly a good comparison of a wrong committed against indigenes.
Sure all those evil things were done to the native peoples of the New Worlds that were invaded and settled by Europeans. The one underlying fact that you miss is that all those things happened at a particular point in time in the planets history. That time has come and gone and can never be repeated. You cannot walk the corridors of the contemporary world with the impunity of Arnie’s “Terminator”, stomp, stomping your way through human beings just because you have the way with all power to do so. No my friend, those days are well and truly gone, the entire world watches and at some point will say “enough”.
In most recent earth history the last European settled country to stomp on its indigenes was brought to its knees by the world community. Oh yes, those European settlers were nuclear armed as well, it mattered not to the world as the situation had become a painfully intolerable festering sore on the psyche of the worlds conscience that simply had to be lanced, addressed.
”If one man says to thee, ''Thou art a donkey',' pay no heed. If two speak thus, purchase a saddle”.
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/20/2009 12:41:11 PM |
So staying with the topic of the thread ... questioning Israel does not = being an Anti Semite. Questioning Israel doesn't make you an anti-semite.
Calling for their water to be cut off ... It's okay for Israel to cut off the water to Palestinians, but not okay if someone points that out and calls for the same treatment in return on Israel? To do something like that is "Anti-Semite"?
... making demands that the world should threaten them unless they do what Americans like you want ... Show me where I have demanded that the world "threaten" the Israelis ... name the thread and quote the post.
I have only ever said that I think the US should cut off ties and support because of the despicable things they are doing. I think because we support them so unconditionally, and they are so despicable, that the world views us in the same way. To call for something like that is "Anti-Semite"?
... claiming they just want to take over the planet ... Again, show me. Show me where I have claimed that "they" (whoever you mean by that?) just want to take over the planet ... name the thread and quote the post.
I may have noted some quotes that could have provoked a person (who is hell-bent on proving I am an anti-Semite) to interpret my words as such, and here are some quotes I have been known to use ...
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." -- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998
... just being a b1tch about Israelis, and not anyone else ... I b1tch about things the US does too. For that matter I was very verbal about what the US did by marching in on a sovereign nation. It's new to me that just being a b1tch about Israelis qualifies a person to be "anti-Semite"? Here ... let me get you a fresh glass of Kool-Aid ... that stuff you're drinking is tainted somehow.
... not even acknowledging that the Palestinians have done damage as well as the Israelis like the UN has acknowledged ... And that makes me an "anti-Semite"?
OT ...
Being anti-Israeli regime policies does not = Anti-Jewish and does not mean that one is "Anti-Semite". | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/21/2009 12:06:33 PM | RE Msg: 79 by cotter:
It's okay for Israel to cut off the water to Palestinians, but not okay if someone points that out and calls for the same treatment in return on Israel? It's OK to call out for the same treatment to everyone, including Americans. It's perfectly OK to point out that if it's not OK to cut water off to Palestinians, then it's also not OK for companies in the US to cut off water from poor people, or to reduce it to a trickle, and it's also not OK to cut off water to the Taleban. It's not OK to single out one group, and not everyone who deserves such treatment.
... making demands that the world should threaten them unless they do what Americans like you want ...
Show me where I have demanded that the world "threaten" the Israelis ... name the thread and quote the post. http://forums.plentyoffish.com/4902223datingPostpage5.aspx
Msg: 120 by cotter:
Cut off their water ... give them one hour per week to get all the drinking water they can carry.
While they're on their way to work, stop them and make them sit and wait for hours at a time ... for no damn good reason.
If they are hurt and need to get to a hospital ... stop the ambulance and don't let the ambulance take them to the hospital. That's a threat. Doesn't matter how you cut it.
I have only ever said that I think the US should cut off ties and support because of the despicable things they are doing. I think because we support them so unconditionally, and they are so despicable, that the world views us in the same way. You are WRONG. The world sees America as unfairly controlling things to suit themselves.
The biggest news in the world, just before the second Iraq war started, was that America was putting heavy import charges on foreign steel imported to America, while at the same time pressuring many countries to not put any charges on American steel exported to their countries. As you can imagine, this kind of inequality put everyone up in arms. However, that was forgotten by the world media once there was bigger news, that of a full-scale war between America and the Middle East.
That had an additional effect, though. Oil is traded in dollars and nothing but dollars. That is unlike almost every other product or resource since the beginning of time. It also gives those who control the production of dollars, huge control over the production of oil. The world would hate America, just because of extremely unfair control over the one resource that every country in the world relies on. However, Sadaam was attempting to change that. He was calling for trading oil in Euros instead of dollars, in 2000. America launched a full-scale attack on Iraq. It attacked Iraq right at the beginning of the summer, when the weather would be a nightmare for US soldiers, and against the advice of military experts. Yet it attacked anyway. But ever since then, even though there is great demand to trade oil in Euros and not dollars, everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room. No-one wants to become another Iraq at the hands of US soldiers.
That has been the state of play until now. But this month, there are news reports that the Arab states are doing deals in secret with China, Russia and France, to move to trade oil in other currencies, among them the Euro, the Chinese Yen, the Japanese Yen, gold, and a possible new unified currency for the Middle East. These sort of talks are usually public, as they would help trade, and not hurt it. The only people who stand to suffer, are the Americans, because they will no longer control the production and supply of oil. The fact that world nations as large as Russia and China feel a need to have secret talks, shows just how much the world feels that America would try to crush these talks if it could.
It might be news now, but Chinese banking sources believe the discussions have gone too far to be blocked now. They also believe that with America in the grip of a financial crisis not seen since the Great Depression, that President Obama is too busy fixing the American economy. So the US doesn't have the resources to put to blocking this, and if it did, they would be put to fixing the American domestic economy anyway. So it was probably released to the press now, because now, America is no longer in a position to stop it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
FYI, Americans are considered generally stupid by the world, and arrogant, and to have no interest in what is going on in the rest of the world. When news reports reveal that 2/3 of teens in America can't identify Iraq on a map, the world just feels sick, because the reason they would be expected to know where it is, is because they were the ones to attack it in the first place, and their own boys and girls are dying.
Frankly, America is one of the least liked countries in the world, and 90% of the reasons for that dislike is because of extremely unfair American economic practices. Support of Israel is more of an afterthought.
Again, show me. Show me where I have claimed that "they" (whoever you mean by that?) just want to take over the planet ... name the thread and quote the post. I can find where you claimed that Israel just wants to take over more and more land, just like I found the post above. But do I really want to sit here and search for hours, just to lick your a**? You're just p*ssed because I called you on something you know that you wrote, because you know it's part of your beliefs about Israel.
I may have noted some quotes that could have provoked a person (who is hell-bent on proving I am an anti-Semite) to interpret my words as such, and here are some quotes I have been known to use ... I have a few problems with these quotes, as I am unable to substantiate any of them from any reputable sources, or just any sources that appear to take an unbiased point of view. Seeing as you quoted these in public talks that would undoubtedly have been covered by journalists of reputable and reasonably objective newspapers, such as Reuters, or other reputable news sources, then I would be able to accept them. As it is, the only sources that I've come across that aren't using them as a platform for attacking Israel, and that might be objective, seemed to say that these quotes are fraudulent.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." -- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989. Can't find anyn reference to this on the net in a formal article of the journal Hotam, or any such news report.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998. Same for this. No source to AFP. Tried to find it, but I just cannot find anything that corroborates it as being reliably true. The best I have is Wikipedia, but with no source to cite, and that's the only way that Wikipedia is reliable, because anyone could change it, but you could always check it out by following the links.
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." -- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998 Same.
For all of these quotes, I can find a dozen conspiracy sites. But I just haven't been able to find a single reputable and reliable news source. That's very, very iffy, because these events are just the sort of thing that news sources covered in the 1980s. So before I accept these as truth, and not just someone making things up to suit their own agenda, and passed on by yourself, I'd like something that I can trust on the issue.
I b1tch about things the US does too. For that matter I was very verbal about what the US did by marching in on a sovereign nation. It's new to me that just being a b1tch about Israelis qualifies a person to be "anti-Semite"? Well, I wonder, because whenever I bring up treating the US in the same way as you suggest treating Israel, you seem to try to never agree, and always try to dodge that bullet. If you really did agree, then I would not have an argument against you treating Israel equal to America.
Here ... let me get you a fresh glass of Kool-Aid ... that stuff you're drinking is tainted somehow. Kool-Aid is something that I've never even seen in the UK. Yet another example of American insularity. The least you could do is offer me a diet Coke, or a Pepsi, or a Pepsi Max, or a Tango, or a 7-Up, or an Irn-Bru (a Scottish drink that can be found here), or any of the tons of drinks that are available worldwide.
... not even acknowledging that the Palestinians have done damage as well as the Israelis like the UN has acknowledged ... And that makes me an "anti-Semite"? | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 10/25/2009 8:40:23 PM | I am not anti-Semite just because I speak out against Israeli policy... no more than anyone might be anti-Christian, or anti-any other religion that is practiced here in the US just because they might despise American policy.
It's okay for Israel to cut off the water to Palestinians, but not okay if someone points that out and calls for the same treatment in return on Israel? It's OK to call out for the same treatment to everyone …
It's not OK to single out one group ... It is when that's the topic of the thread!!!!
If someone wants to talk about Americans cutting off water from poor people ... start a thread about it. But even if a person were to do that … they would not be accused of being anti-anything that has to do with a single religion.
... making demands that the world should threaten them unless they do what Americans like you want ... A partial post was posted from another thread. Conveniently … only part of it was posted to try to make a point and one of the most important parts of the actual post was left out. Of course only part of the post does not make sense and naturally it would look like it supports the point the above poster is trying to make.
I have never demanded that the world threaten Israel. I have pointed out some of the despicable things that Israel does to the Palestinians and still feel that if someone did that to them they might be more willing to sit down and negotiate.
I have only ever insinuated that turn about for Israel would be fair play given what they do to the Palestinians …
Cut off their water ... give them one hour per week to get all the drinking water they can carry.
While they're on their way to work, stop them and make them sit and wait for hours at a time ... for no damn good reason.
If they are hurt and need to get to a hospital ... stop the ambulance and don't let the ambulance take them to the hospital.
Do everything to them that they have been doing to the Palestinians over the past 60 + years.
Even if they only get a taste of their own medicine for one month ... they would be willing to sit down and negotiate!!!!!! That is in no way, shape, or form demanding that the world (?) should threaten them. That's just my way of being against another despicable Israeli policy and does not make me anti-Semite.
Again, show me. Show me where I have claimed that "they" (whoever you mean by that?) just want to take over the planet ... name the thread and quote the post. I can find where you claimed that Israel just wants to take over more and more land…
Or better yet ... show that they have brought in the rightful owners of the land and made them comfortable in the "new" settlement housing that was erected illegally on the land? Any proof of that? NO? I didn't think so.
BTW ... claiming that Israel just wants to take over more and more land does not make me or anyone anti-Semite. Again ... just shows nothing more than anti-Israeli policy.
You're just p*ssed because I called you on something you know that you wrote, because you know it's part of your beliefs about Israel. Correction ... not just beliefs ... part of what we know Israel is doing and I speak out against it. That does not make me anti-Semite ... that just means I'm against the despicable behavior of the Israelis.
So I repeat … I am not anti-Semite just because I speak out against Israeli policy... no more than anyone might be anti-Christian, or anti-any other religion that is practiced here in the US just because they might despise American policy. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/12/2009 3:05:57 PM | Someone smarter than me had said it before: criticizing Israel is not antisemitism; singling it out is. Unless you happen to have a rational explanation of WHY you are singling Israel out, i.e. how Israeli policies bother you more than about everyone else's in the region.
When an international board comes together with the purpose of condemning Israel's (admittedly problematic) record on human rights, and almost everyone sitting on that board has committed much, much more heinous violations, but they are somehow OK... it makes me wonder what's going on.
When a bunch of people on the 'net, to whom Israel, a country so puny you can't even see it on the map, that has never done anything to them, spend hours of their valuable time bashing Israel, and only Israel, resisting any attempt to focus their attention elsewhere, they make me wonder.
By the same logic (and many will disagree with me) when a Palestinian hates anything Israeli, that, to me, is not antisemitism.. it's just normal consequences of a normal conflict. Even when Mein Kampf becomes one of the best sellers in Palestine, that, to me, is more acceptable than elsewhere. I mean, at least we've given them some reasons to hate us, right? We've won, we are back to our ancestral land to which they have some very serious rights, too, but which they can't have... let them have whatever solace they find. They don't hate us as Jews, they hate us because they have a real estate dispute with us which they lost. They are hurt, they are going through their denial-anger-grief-acceptance like we've been doing for 2,000 years before them.. I sympathize, but we were there first, our ancestors have given a name to every tiniest rocks or cave there, and, unlike them, we have nowhere else to go, and they have as much land, compared to Israel, as a football field compared to a match box... hopefully, with time, they will build a good life on their football field, we'll build a good life on our matchbox, and the dust will settle. Europeans on the other hand.. I am somewhat more suspicious of European anti-Zionists, German in particular, they do make me wonder exactly what they are hiding behind this newer, more fashionable facade.
We are more than religion or a culture by the way.. we are an ethnic group... so comparison with Christianity has no merit. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/15/2009 10:21:34 AM |
We are more than religion or a culture by the way.. we are an ethnic group... so comparison with Christianity has no merit. Anyone is free to define it any way they want ... and they are certainly entitled to their opinion.
Pertaining to the topic of the thread ...
Questionning Israel = antisemitism? It's my opinion that questioning Israel ... specifically the Zionist regime's policies ... is not anti-Semitism.
"Dubya"/"The High Functioning Moron" was (I think, although he didn't act the part) a Christian. His political party affiliations are (from what I'm told, although they didn't act the part) predominantly Christian.
Questioning his regime's policies does not make a person "anti-Christian" ... right? Questioning his party's policies does not make a person "anti-Christian" ... right?
Questioning the Zionist regime's policies ... (in my opinion, which I believe I'm entitled to) does not make a person "anti-Semite".
If a person does not agree with my opinion ... so be it. It will not change my opinion. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/15/2009 3:00:38 PM | we've been through this a hundred times, but i guess that's why we're here.
it's not the policy you're questioning, for if that were the case you'd be questioning them everywhere, not just in this very very speicific locality.
there is nothing about "the zionist regime" that hasn't happened and isn't happening elsewhere. questions are just questions. selective questions targetting a very selective minority are indicative of bias.
If a person does not agree with my opinion ... so be it. It will not change my opinion. no one is born with bias, so obviously something changed your opinion somewhere along the way. oh well, can't teach an old dog new tricks, eh. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/15/2009 10:38:55 PM |
Anyone is free to define it any way they want ... and they are certainly entitled to their opinion.
No, not everyone. Any group is free to define ITSELF any way it wants. For instance, I am not religious (and neither is the majority of Jews), but if the Jewish people says I am a part of them by birth, and I agree, that means I am.
They teach the difference between fact and opinion in 4th grade.. did you miss that? | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/16/2009 7:22:52 AM |
it's not the policy you're questioning, for if that were the case you'd be questioning them everywhere, not just in this very very speicific locality. Soooo how would anyone know if do or do not question such policies elsewhere?
Are they following me around and monitoring my every move?
Monitoring my every written word?
Not that I have found much of the despicable policy we're referring to elsewhere ...
... please prove that I don't question such policies elsewhere. This should be interesting ... 
there is nothing about "the zionist regime" that hasn't happened and isn't happening elsewhere. questions are just questions. selective questions targetting a very selective minority are indicative of bias. In this thread ... the topic is "Questionning Israel = antisemitism? ... so naturally, we are limited to talking about Israel and whether or not it's considered being an "anti-Semite" to question Israel. It would be off topic to discuss anything else.
Anyone is free to define it any way they want ... and they are certainly entitled to their opinion. No, not everyone. Any group is free to define ITSELF any way it wants.
Israel is ruled by a Zionist regime that is (apparently ) following a policy they feel is good for Israel and represents all of Israel (although I know lots of people who live there, even have friends there ... who find it just as despicable as I do).
Questioning that policy is simply questioning current "Israeli policy". That does not equal being an "anti-Semite". That's nothing more than questioning Israeli policy. (If that makes me "anti-Semite" does that make those who live there and who are opposed to the despicable current policy ... also "anti-Semite"?)
I sincerely do not care how anyone else sees it.
I'm entitled to my opinion.
If someone does not like it ... then too bad.
But that does not make me "anti-Semite". | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/20/2009 8:33:31 AM | RE Msg: 81 by cotter:
I am not anti-Semite just because I speak out against Israeli policy... no more than anyone might be anti-Christian, or anti-any other religion that is practiced here in the US just because they might despise American policy. I have every respect for people who speak out against those policies of Israel that are unfair. You cannot find any Jew who will not agree with that, because almost every Jew, in Israel or out of Israel, Zionist or not, who speaks out against some policies of Israel. Even members of Israel's own government sometimes speak out against their own government.
The same would be true of speaking out against unfair policies of countries in Africa.
It's the WAY you speak about it, though, that's the problem.
It's okay for Israel to cut off the water to Palestinians, but not okay if someone points that out and calls for the same treatment in return on Israel? They are 2 different subjects and 2 different peoples. If it's OK to compare different groups, then it's OK to compare all different groups.
In the last few years, America and Britain invaded Iraq, and as a result, the Iraqi people ended up with a cholera epidemic, without the access to drugs to cure it. IF you think your argument is OK, then it's OK to argue the same about America and Britain. Give the Americans and the British a cholera epidemic, and deny them the drugs to cure it. See how they like it.
I really don't think you're thinking this through.
It's OK to call out for the same treatment to everyone … I would, but it's not "everyone" who is doing it ... eh? It's the Israelis!
And being against such an Israeli policy (or against their despicable behavior) does not make me anti-Semite ... it just means I'm against what they are doing. If that's clear from your words, then yes. But frankly, that's not what they sound like. If they were a complaint against unfair behaviour of just that area, then you'd be complaining about all the Palestinian suicide bombers that killed innocent children.
It's not OK to single out one group ... It is when that's the topic of the thread!!!!
Understand that I'm not against complaining against Israel. I'm against complaining against Israel and not expecting the same of every other country, including America.
If someone wants to talk about Americans cutting off water from poor people ... start a thread about it. I'd be horrified if I saw a thread like that. What did YOU do to deserve you having YOUR water cut off, just because of what your government's politicians did?
But even if a person were to do that … they would not be accused of being anti-anything that has to do with a single religion. If you started a thread against ALL Americans, then no-one would accuse you of being anti-anything to do with a particular religion. But if you started a thread only against Christian Americans, then they would accuse you of being anti-Christianity.
Many Palestinians and Druze are Israelis. If you were against the policies of the Israeli government, and claimed they are complicit in those practises, then everyone would agree you're not against Jews. But if you are only arguing the the Jewish Israelis are complicit in the policies of the Israeli government, then people WILL say that you're ONLY targeting Jews.
... making demands that the world should threaten them unless they do what Americans like you want ... A partial post was posted from another thread. Conveniently … only part of it was posted to try to make a point and one of the most important parts of the actual post was left out. Of course only part of the post does not make sense and naturally it would look like it supports the point the above poster is trying to make.
But even then, I referenced the thread, and the message number, and the relevant passage. I gave you the chance to review your own posts, to look it up, decide if it's right or not. I've given that chance to EVERYONE.
But it was a lengthy post, that was part of an on-going argument that stretched over several pages. To put it in its full context, would require posting ALL of your lengthy posts, and ALL of the replies to them. That would take up several pages, just to prove that you did what I said you did. To do that, just to provide proof to you, or your own words, that you can look up anyway, would be hijacking the thread completely.
If you want to disprove me, and hijack the thread, that's up to you. But I'm not going to hijack the thread, just to suit you, and I'm NOT going to bend over to suit extreme demands of you, not when I've already provided you the tools to do all that yourself. I'm a Jew. I'm entitled to the same rights as you. I'm not your slave to kick around.
I have never demanded that the world threaten Israel. Then prove it. You asked me to prove it, and I did. If you want to disprove it, then do the same. I even made it real easy for you, by giving you the link to the thread and your message number. You have all the tools you need to prove me wrong. Either you can do it, and you will, or you can't do it, and you won't. Put up or shut up. You demanded that of me. I did it. Demand of yourself what you demand of others. Be fair.
I have pointed out some of the despicable things that Israel does to the Palestinians and still feel that if someone did that to them they might be more willing to sit down and negotiate. Americans made attacks against Libya, Grenada, Iraq, twice, and Afghanistan, and that's only some of the recent ones. America gets attacked once by the Japanese, and they bomb its cities out of all existence. America gets attacked once, and they have an 8-year war because of it. If giving America a taste of its own medicine never worked to get them to sit down and negotiate, why do you think it will work better with Israel?
I have only ever insinuated that turn about for Israel would be fair play given what they do to the Palestinians … Then demand that Americans get 2 of their cities nuked out of existence, like they did to the Japanese. That's fair play, given they did that to the Japanese.
Cut off their water ... give them one hour per week to get all the drinking water they can carry.
While they're on their way to work, stop them and make them sit and wait for hours at a time ... for no damn good reason.
If they are hurt and need to get to a hospital ... stop the ambulance and don't let the ambulance take them to the hospital.
Do everything to them that they have been doing to the Palestinians over the past 60 + years.
Even if they only get a taste of their own medicine for one month ... they would be willing to sit down and negotiate!!!!!! That is in no way, shape, or form demanding that the world (?) should threaten them. That's just my way of being against another despicable Israeli policy and does not make me anti-Semite.
Again, show me. Show me where I have claimed that "they" (whoever you mean by that?) just want to take over the planet ... name the thread and quote the post. Read the post you made just now, message 81.
I can find where you claimed that Israel just wants to take over more and more land… Can you find anything to prove that the Israelis DON'T want to take over more and more land? Show where they are not building more new settlements on stolen land? Show where they have disassembled any illegal settlements and given the stolen land back to the Palestinians?
It's not their land until the contract is fulfilled, and that doesn't happen until they cease and desist from ALL terrorist activities against Israel for a solid 2 years. To not do so, makes the contract null and void, like it would do for any contract in America. It's not much to do, to just stop killing for 2 years, to get your own state. If the Palestinian people refuse to do the thing that will help them, and keep killing and killing, even innocent children, even when it's against their own best interests, then they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Should you be required to fulfil the conditions of a contract, when the other parties refuse to keep their end of the bargain? If you agreed to buy a camera from eBay, and the other person sends you a broken camera, should you still pay for it?
Or better yet ... show that they have brought in the rightful owners of the land and made them comfortable in the "new" settlement housing that was erected illegally on the land? Any proof of that? NO? I didn't think so. If you sell your house to someone else, do you have to pay for them to settle in? Do you have to pay for them to get their stuff moved? Do you have to pay for them to get their broadband moved? NO? I didn't think so. Why are you expecting the Israelis to do something that you would never do.
BTW ... claiming that Israel just wants to take over more and more land does not make me or anyone anti-Semite. Again ... just shows nothing more than anti-Israeli policy. Claiming that Israel just wants to take over more and more land, because it invaded America, or Egypt, or Jordan, or Syria, would not make you anti-Semitic, just like everyone agreed that Sadaam wanted to take over more and more land, because he invaded Kuwait. But refusing to use your own land that would only be given to another on conditions of the contract, when the conditions of the contract have NEVER been fulfilled, is no better than refusing to live in your own house that you agreed to sell to another on condition they would buy it at a fixed price, when the other person refuses to pay any money at all, is just being a sucker. Why do you want the Israelis to be suckers?
You're just p*ssed because I called you on something you know that you wrote, because you know it's part of your beliefs about Israel. Correction ... not just beliefs ... part of what we know Israel is doing and I speak out against it. That does not make me anti-Semite ... that just means I'm against the despicable behavior of the Israelis.
You did all that, by screaming again and again, with no solid arguments.
So I repeat … I am not anti-Semite just because I speak out against Israeli policy... no more than anyone might be anti-Christian, or anti-any other religion that is practiced here in the US just because they might despise American policy. Stop repeating yourself. Saying the same thing over and over again, when everyone shows your arguments are full of holes, just makes you seem like a fundamentalist extremist, who just refuses to examine and question their own views, if they are right or not.
RE Msg: 83 by cotter:
We are more than religion or a culture by the way.. we are an ethnic group... so comparison with Christianity has no merit. Anyone is free to define it any way they want ... and they are certainly entitled to their opinion. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/20/2009 6:46:21 PM | This thread is titled: Questioning Isreal=antisemitism. It is NOT: Is Cotter An Antisemite?
The rational that the zionist regime with its racist policies is not so bad because other regimes are equally immoral and murderous flies in the face of its founders who proclaimed that it would be a "Light Onto The Nations" .
The irony that the proclamation was made whilst standing on the still warm bodies of the original owners seems to have been ignored, perhaps they were only photographed from the knees up.
All and all, the state of isreal must be questioned because silence is complicity just as doing nothing is an act. In the spirit of Crazy Horse, Whiskeypapa | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/21/2009 11:05:56 AM | In 1944, Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jew unambiguously defined the meaning of “genocide”.
Lemkin wrote:-
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.
In the aftermath of WW2 and the discovery of all that happened to European Jews in that conflict, Lemkin dedicated his life to the campaign for the universal laws defining and forbidding genocide forever. In 1946 at the very first session of the UN, approval in principle was reached to the idea that genocide was a crime in international law. Finally in 1948 the UN adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and Lemkin’s dream, born out of the horrors endured by his people during WW2, was fulfilled.
How poignantly paradoxical it is that the descendents of Lemkin’s generation are now attempting the very same horror that he fought so hard for recognition of and against ever being repeated, has now been underway for 60 years against the indigenes of Palestine.
They mock you, Raphael...........they mock you.
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/21/2009 1:18:34 PM | RE Msg: 88 by whiskeypapa:
This thread is titled: Questioning Isreal=antisemitism. It is NOT: Is Cotter An Antisemite? Cotter is saying that any form of attack on Israel is not anti-Semitism. That's just not rational. There are limits to all things.
The rational that the zionist regime with its racist policies is not so bad because other regimes are equally immoral and murderous flies in the face of its founders who proclaimed that it would be a "Light Onto The Nations" . The OT says that the Jews are to be a "Light Onto The Nations". That's also what the indigenous Orthodox Jews of Israel wanted it to be. But they were ignored by the British under the British Mandate. Instead, the British gave it to some Eastern-European anti-religious communists to run. The founders of the MODERN State of Israel believed that Israel should be like any other land, with crime and with prostitutes. They achieved that, to everyone else's dismay.
RE Msg: 89 by Chiny®™©:
How poignantly paradoxical it is that the descendents of Lemkin’s generation are now attempting the very same horror that he fought so hard for recognition of and against ever being repeated, has now been underway for 60 years against the indigenes of Palestine.
They mock you, Raphael...........they mock you. To YOU it's paradoxical. But what did you expect? The countries of the Allied Forces set up a government selected of people who had such virulent anti-tolerant ideas, that were totally against religion, and the Middle-Eastern mindset, and were highly oppressive of religious Jews and religious Muslims, it was virtually impossible for anything to result but conflict and intolerance. Stop deliberately picking leaders who are bound to cause conflict, and you might have a better chance of conflict. But then, since no-one could doubt that picking such leaders could result in conflict, it's impossible to know this, without accepting that people who would only start conflicts were intentionally chosen, because the countries of Western Europe WANTED continual conflict in the Middle East. You made your bed. Now you don't want to lie in it?
It is OUR countries that caused this mess. Put blame where blame is due.
WE are the ones who mock Raphael Lemkin for deliberately causing this to happen in the first place. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/22/2009 12:32:03 AM |
How poignantly paradoxical it is that the descendents of Lemkin’s generation are now attempting the very same horror that he fought so hard for recognition of and against ever being repeated, has now been underway for 60 years against the indigenes of Palestine.
They mock you, Raphael...........they mock you.
pffft. genocide. you mock yourself, chiny, you mock yourself. | |
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/22/2009 4:19:02 AM |
Scorps
To YOU it's paradoxical. But what did you expect? The countries of the Allied Forces set up a government selected of people who had such virulent anti-tolerant ideas, that were totally against religion, and the Middle-Eastern mindset, and were highly oppressive of religious Jews and religious Muslims, it was virtually impossible for anything to result but conflict and intolerance. Stop deliberately picking leaders who are bound to cause conflict, and you might have a better chance of conflict. But then, since no-one could doubt that picking such leaders could result in conflict, it's impossible to know this, without accepting that people who would only start conflicts were intentionally chosen, because the countries of Western Europe WANTED continual conflict in the Middle East. You made your bed. Now you don't want to lie in it?
Aha.....correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that it is the all out migration of Eastern Europeans (Slavic’s), to the neophyte state of Israel that has caused all the present day problems. By this do you mean that those Slavic’s have brought with them the Eastern European culture of political despotism, of authoritarianism, of totalitarianism, of tyrannical policies and of Stalinism? Those cultures would have been so ingrained in their psyches that, that is all they would know and so they would govern in the exact same manner?
This explains a lot about one of those “A Current Affair” programmes I watched that reported on this very problem. There are gangs of disenfranchised youth, the children that accompanied their Eastern Block parents to Israel. In their home countries they would roam the streets attacking Jews, Asians and African students just about anyone that looked different to themselves. Once ensconced in Israel they would continue the behaviour attacking orthodox Jews, Palestinians and anyone with darker shades of skin. They were called the skinheads, had tattoos of swastikas and posters of Hitler, most of the time they carried out their deeds with impunity and within eyesight of the Police and IDF Units whom took no action against them.
Many Israeli’s demanded action from the authorities but their demands were ignored, till a group of very old women, survivors of the WW2 German Camps demonstrated to the Israeli PM and were filmed doing so. The PM then issued orders for the apprehension and the curtailing of those gangs. The programme was allowed to interview one of the gang members that got caught. He looked pretty much like any other European except for his shaven head, Dr. Martin boots and denim jacket with shoulder swastika patches. The journalist asked him the reasons for his behaviour; he shrugged and said “We do this every night in Moscow, its ok, these people deserve it, they’re not like us and so we give them sh1t”. “Israel is my parents; I am from Moscow we don’t give a sh1t about this sh1tty country or the sh1tty people that live here”. The Israeli’s were in a conundrum as to whether to deport them back to their European Slavic origins or not.
I guess life in Israel would be a lot more attractive than life in the old USSR block countries given the level of US Fundamentalist Christian support as they await the Rapture, the public financial subsidisation by the US Gov’t and the private financial donations from North America. Added to all that financial benefit is the bonus of the new unrestrictive rules as to who can claim to be Jewish (which seems to be nothing more than to claim so), it would just be an open slather of migrate, assume a Jewish name, begin Hebrew language classes and get a new house in the West Bank or Eastern Jerusalem. Bob’s your uncle?
But in the meantime the rest of the world is forced to pay for the forced dislocation of the Palestinians from their homes, farms, land.
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| Questionning Israel = antisemitism?
Posted: 11/22/2009 7:31:34 PM |
Questionning Israel = antisemitism? It's my opinion that questioning Israel ... specifically the Zionist regime's policies ... is not anti-Semitism.
It's not OK to single out one group It is when that's the topic of the thread!!!! Understand that I'm not against complaining against Israel. I'm against complaining against Israel and not expecting the same of every other country, including America.
I could care less if someone complains about America. They can do anything they want, but I don't anticipate anyone would respond to it since it would be off topic.
I suppose if someone wants to complain about American despicable behaviors against their neighboring countries … then they could start a thread about it … eh? Go for it.
This thread is titled: Questioning Isreal=anti-Semitism. It is NOT: Is Cotter An Antisemite? I'm unaware that I am the topic of this thread, but as we can see by the following quote, apparently one poster feels he can make it the topic of the thread … interesting.
Cotter is saying that any form of attack on Israel is not anti-Semitism. That's just not rational. There are limits to all things. NO! Cotter did not say that. Cotter is saying that any form of attack on "Israeli Policy" is not anti-Semitism. Note ... a key word there is "Policy". Apparently there are some posters in here who want to put their own twist on things, but they need to learn to not to lie while doing it.
"Chiny®™©" … Message 89
How very true …
How poignantly paradoxical it is that the descendents of Lemkin’s generation are now attempting the very same horror that he fought so hard for recognition of and against ever being repeated, has now been underway for 60 years against the indigenes of Palestine.
They mock you, Raphael...........they mock you.
It doesn't surprise me though that those committing the genocide … will never admit to it ... not to mention the despicable supporters of it.
As an American, it shames me to know that by supporting the Israelis both financially and with weapons … that we might as well be pulling the triggers, bulldozing the homes, starving the Palestinians, and depriving them of water.
The Zionist regime is indescribably despicable.
It is NOT anti-Semitism to criticize "Israeli policy". (Anyone who wants to bring that up again ... don't forget I said the word ... policy ... okay?) | |
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