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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/19/2008 6:22:28 PM |
Yeah, and what about this so-called "gravity?" Nobody's ever even seen it, and we're just supposed to take Big Science's word for it? Maybe that Newton fag just stood up under a low hanging branch! Hell, whatever, he hit his head and then thought up this stuff. Now it's gospel!?
DAMN Big Science for making up detailed, peer-reviewed analyses just to line their pockets and mislead the billions. I'm sure glad I never get treated like that in church!
Cheeese!
Vulf
I say the same thing when people tell me evolution is just a theory, I say, "Well so is gravity!".
I love it when these backwood types jump on a little paper from Arkansas Trinity Community College about how black people smell worse than white people. But throw them dozens of years of research on global climate change from the majority of top scientists around the world and they say "That doesn't prove anything!" | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:29:27 PM |
And we, collective, are almost certain to get ours...
I just wish we weren't going to take the bears with us. . . .
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.
--- Richard P. Feynman | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:14:12 AM |
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.
My sentiments exactly. To me it's not so much the debate on global warming that gets me it's the furthering of people's personal agendas and they need public relations to do that regardless of reality. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:34:10 AM | "Oh, come on now. We scientifically trained people know it's not caused by overweight people. The fact is that it's caused by all those hot flashes by menopausal women. "
ok that is funny!!!! | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 11:49:04 AM | So now over weight people are to blame for global warming too ? WOW the idiots are out in full force aren't they? SO does that mean us over weight people can blame those not over weight for something? Please.....
And for the McDonalds comment. NOT all over weight people eat McDonalds and not all over weight people over eat.
Don't go cleaning out my closet unless you take a big hard look at your own!.... Do you really think that if I looked at you and your life I could not find many things to pick at, judge you by and blame you for! | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:18:26 PM |
NOT all over weight people eat McDonalds and not all over weight people over eat.
Don't go cleaning out my closet unless you take a big hard look at your own!.... Do you really think that if I looked at you and your life I could not find many things to pick at, judge you by and blame you for!
You're right. Scientists have been puzzled by the glandular epidemic that has struck ONLY the US. People are ballooning up to unheard of sizes and they are absolutely sure overeating and sitting on their asses has nothing to do with it. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:56:43 PM | What a load of crap! Literally. I'm tired of overweight people being blamed for every little thing in this world. What saddens me, is that overweight people are being treated and looked at, as badly as people who had AIDS/HIV back in the 1980's when the disease was first mentioned in the world.
There's so much more to do in this world than to blame overweight people, much less look down on overweight people, or anyone who is different than you are. The human race has evolved into a sad state of affairs. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 1:14:00 PM |
And for the McDonalds comment. NOT all over weight people eat McDonalds and not all over weight people over eat.
About 99 percent of overweight people overeat. The other one percent have monogenic mutations to leptin, the leptin receptor, and a few other genes. The 100 or so leptin deficient humans in the world are made normal weight with a simple leptin injection. The majority of the rest of the population with serious genetic mutations affecting body weight are SOL.
The rest of fat people would have normal metabolic rate or near normal metabolic rate, provided they reach their ideal weight and body composition. Fat people have lower than normal metabolic rate for the size they are because of disproportionate fat percentage compared to lean body mass, and generally they move a lot less than thin people.
As far as fat people being blamed for global warming? There's probably a small contribution, but considering there are other factors that make a much larger contribution, fat people are way, way, way down on the list of things to worry about vis-a-vis global warming. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 1:58:26 PM | The truth is that prevailing scientific opinion on many issues has evolved and changed over the years as we develop more sophisticated research methods and more enlightened hypotheses on which to base that research. Science is a essentially a series of provisional truths, backed by evidence, that are amended when better evidence is available.
Often the outcome of scientific research is tweaked in favor of whatever agenda is being pushed by those who fund it. There is very little "pure" scientific research being done these days, as so much of it is being paid for by corporations with profit as a priority.
The global warming/climate change issues is one that has been attracting an enormous amount of research, and that's a good thing. Much of the research being done is independent and not funded by corporate interests, and that's a very good thing. The larger the body of knowledge we can amass about the issue, the better we will be positioned to make intelligent choices about actions we might take.
We're nowhere near a comprehensive understanding about the complicated and delicately balanced forces that are influencing the climatic phenomena that we are experiencing, but the evidence is mounting towards a realization that human activity may indeed have an effect, perhaps a profound one, on the earth's climate.
Whether we are believers or non-believers, it's only common sense to start to take some personal responsibility for that, and look for ways to reduce our impact. After all, what is to be gained by not doing so? If you were to look at a simple risk evaluation scenario based on evidence to date, there's much more potential risk in doing nothing than in making some proactive steps now, even before all the evidence is in.
Just as an aside, Hawaii makes a good point about nature's own effects on climate change - but lucky him, he lives way over there in Maui, and I'm right on the slopes of the volcano that has been going off for the past couple of months, spewing a huge plume of smoke, ash, and sulphur into the air 24/7. Many people here have gotten quite ill from the effects of the "vog" (volcanic smog), with intense headaches, difficulty breathing, fatigue and flu-like symptoms. It's a rare day anymore when we can actually see the sun set through the brownish haze. And this could go on for another 100 years . . . the enormity of the effect of Halemaumau's eruption on the earth's climate balance won't be known for some time, but it does make it seem a bit futile to worry about energy-saving lightbulbs and the like. On the other hand, we are all in this together, us and Mother Earth, so taking some personal responsibility is the best way to be a team player . . . | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:14:08 PM | Just as an aside, Hawaii makes a good point about nature's own effects on climate change - but lucky him, he lives way over there in Maui, and I'm right on the slopes of the volcano that has been going off for the past couple of months, spewing a huge plume of smoke, ash, and sulphur into the air 24/7. Many people here have gotten quite ill from the effects of the "vog" (volcanic smog), with intense headaches, difficulty breathing, fatigue and flu-like symptoms. It's a rare day anymore when we can actually see the sun set through the brownish haze. And this could go on for another 100 years . . . the enormity of the effect of Halemaumau's eruption on the earth's climate balance won't be known for some time, but it does make it seem a bit futile to worry about energy-saving lightbulbs and the like.
We only get it during Kona winds. You've been getting it most every day for years since she blew. ( I've actually seen it spewing 2000 ft. in the air.) Been going on for 18 years just worse now than in the past because of the amount of smoke being omitted. Big reason why I never moved to Kona.
By the way the only reason why people don't hear about it on the mainland is because the Hawaii Visitor's Bureau keeps it under wraps for the tourist industry. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:31:25 PM |
We only get it during Kona winds. You've been getting it most every day for years since she blew. ( I've actually seen it spewing 2000 ft. in the air.) Been going on for 18 years just worse now than in the past because of the amount of smoke being omitted.
Well, the ongoing 18-year eruption from Pu'u O'o produced tolerable amounts of vog, with plenty of clear days interspersed, but the latest eruption of smoke and ash from Halemaumau has destroyed any semblance of breathable air . . .
You know, the overweight people scenario is a good example of a faulty scientific premise . . . by their analysis - it wouldn't be overWEIGHT people, it would be overSIZE people. A person who is 4'10" and 160 pounds is overweight, but by their definition would still have a lighter footprint than a fit, 6'2", 225 pound person.
And don't even get me started on teenage boys and their rate of consumption . . . | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:39:42 PM | Excellent post, E Kipa Mai.
I especially like your description of science:
Science is a essentially a series of provisional truths, backed by evidence, that are amended when better evidence is available.
...and your analysis of the type of science being done regarding global warming/climate change:
The global warming/climate change issues is one that has been attracting an enormous amount of research, and that's a good thing. Much of the research being done is independent and not funded by corporate interests, and that's a very good thing. The larger the body of knowledge we can amass about the issue, the better we will be positioned to make intelligent choices about actions we might take.
I do have a different interpretation of current state of the science on the issue, though. You said:
We're nowhere near a comprehensive understanding about the complicated and delicately balanced forces that are influencing the climatic phenomena that we are experiencing, but the evidence is mounting towards a realization that human activity may indeed have an effect, perhaps a profound one, on the earth's climate.
It strikes me that your statement would have been right on 5-8 years ago, but at least based on the reports I've been reading in recent years, it seems that we're well past the 'may indeed have an effect' stage. I agree that we still have much to learn about the complicated and delicately balanced forces impacting climate, but what we have learned has repeatedly pointed the finger to human activity as having a major impact. Not the only impact, but certainly a profound one. There is still much to learn about all the ways human activity can effect climate. Greenhouse gas emissions are the most commonly cited, but land use also seems to be a major factor.
You seem to be well educated on science. Can you elaborate on why you feel we're not yet sure that humans play a significant role in a changing climate?
Dave | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:13:21 PM |
The weight of the scientific evidence really is overwhelming on the human role in climate change, but not one of those who said "I just don't believe it" was any more convinced despite volumes of specific citations.
Let’s just say for argument sake that humans are causing global warming. The forecast is that if we continue as we are now, that the planet will be 1 or 2 degrees warmer in 100 years. Are we to expect the kind of massive catastrophes like shown in the Hollywood movie “The Day After Tomorrow?” That seems unlikely and what exactly will happen is still very debatable. We are talking about spending trillions of dollars worldwide and like always the good old USA will foot more than its share of the bill. Redirecting that kind of money towards the fight against global warming, in my opinion, will cause a lot of very real financial hardship on our citizens.
Might we expect more plant growth because of the warmer climate that would consume the extra CO2? Also, we are supposed to be running out of fossil fuel so it’s not like it will last forever. Its questions like this that science seems fuzzy in answering accurately. For all we know a few degrees warmer may be beneficial to the planet and not harmful at all. Though experience and just living life I am a very nervous person when the government says "Hey, we are here to help you from yourself." They typically don’t know what they are doing but sure can spend money like crazy. They can just print more of it, I can’t. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:51:35 PM | Mahalo nui, Waterfall Kane . . .
It strikes me that your statement would have been right on 5-8 years ago . . . Can you elaborate on why you feel we're not yet sure that humans play a significant role in a changing climate?
Well, that wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of being behind the times!
I am nowhere near as familiar with the research on the issue as are some of the posters in this thread, so it may be that I just need to get caught up on the reading. At the same time, the science background that I do have has made me keenly aware of the difficulty of establishing cause-and-effect relationships beyond the shadow of a doubt. And with an issue as complex as this one, there are a mind-boggling array of variables to be juggled.
In one of your earlier posts on the thread, you said that, "we believe that the science shows that the earth's climate is warming" and followed that statement with . . . "and that the only rational explanation for both the increase in greenhouse gasses and the observed and predicted increase in global temperatures is human activity."
While I am of the personal opinion that the research and interpretation of the results is on the right track . . . what if the explanation includes elements which may not appear rational to us at this moment? It's important, if science is to be effective, to not get so invested in a certain outcome that it closes our minds to other possibilities.
Our responsibility to each other and to the planet on which we live transcends this issue. Whether or not you "believe" in global warming with humans as the primary causal factor, the truth is that everything we do has an effect on the people and the world around us, and that definitely includes living in a way that wastefully consumes the planet's resources and devastates its land, air and sea environment.
We have much to gain by taking the kind of steps that are being suggested to reduce global warming, and very much to lose by not doing so, regardless of whether the research and conclusions currently being presented turn out to be exactly correct . . . | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:54:11 PM | | Overweight people eat tons of ice cream, which has a cooling effect on the climate. That far outweighs any heat producing effect. If people stopped eating ice cream, the oceans would boil. And Popsicles, although to a lesser degree. | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:21:25 PM | Warmthnpassion,
Forecasts for average global temperature increases by the end of the century vary quite a bit, with estimates I've seen ranging from 1 to 12 degrees Celsius (2 to 21 degrees Fahrenheit). Last years' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report predicted the most probably range to be between 1.8 and 4.0 degrees Celsius, although there were a number of panel members who argued for higher estimates.
It's worth noting that the more we learn, the more we do keep nudging those estimates higher. And it's also worth noting that a large part of the variability in estimates is based on whether or not we take aggressive action to minimize human climate impacts. Those low end numbers ASSUME that we place addressing climate change just as high on our priority list as you seem to caution us not to.
Massive sudden catastrophes as seen in "The Day After Tomorrow" are considered very unlikely, although theoretically possible. The concern among policy makers is NOT based on those sort of catastrophes, but rather on the risks of rising sea levels, increases in floods, droughts, and heat waves, shifting ecosystems, fresh water shortages, and the need for mass migrations as some areas become unlivable.
Some areas may see increases in plant growth, if we allow it. Deforestation and other land use factors have also played a role in climate change and will continue to. Other areas will see a decrease in plant growth as available water disappears. Those increases, of course, would include a lot of pollen-producing weeds and an increase in invasive species infestation.
There have also been some studies that indicate that although plants indeed need CO2 to survive, too much CO2 can actually inhibit growth in at least some plant species. This is one of the areas additional study is focusing on.
And the economic forecasts are especially tricky. There are those trumpeted by skeptics that mimic your assumption of trillions of dollars of 'extra' money spent worldwide. There are a lot of other analyses that actually show a net savings due to averted expenses from the risks I noted above, as well as an accelerated shift to more sustainable and efficient energy policies. Managed properly, addressing climate change should provide a lot of business opportunities and thus a lot of new jobs and profits.
On a personal level, the changes could also mean that the next energy consuming device you purchase, whether a fridge, house, car, hot water heater, air conditioner, furnace or whatever, will be a lot more efficient and thus cost you a lot less to use. You may may see an increase in public transportation options, major incentives to add solar panels or extra insulation to your home or install better windows or buy a fuel efficient vehicle.
Yes, we'll ultimately run out of fossil fuels if we don't switch to something else and keep using those fuels at a breakneck pace. But hopefully, just as we didn't leave the stone age because we ran out of stones, we won't wait until we run out of coal and oil before we transition to more sustainable energy options.
Change is coming, on a lot of fronts. We face potential crises in the energy, fresh water, and climate change arenas, just to name a few. Fortunately, strategies to address any one of those crises often help address the other two.
Just as the last century was not much like the one before it, this century will be a lot different than the last. We can either be dragged kicking and screaming into it, or use all the information we have to make the best decisions on how best to manage all those changes.
Dave | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/20/2008 9:43:04 PM |
Mahalo nui, Waterfall Kane . . .
I'm gonna need a translation on that one, I'm afraid....
It seems we essentially agree on the need for us to collectively act more harmoniously with nature rather than try to think of ourselves as distinct from all the natural processes that conspire to create the only habitable planet we've got to work with.
At the same time, the science background that I do have has made me keenly aware of the difficulty of establishing cause-and-effect relationships beyond the shadow of a doubt. And with an issue as complex as this one, there are a mind-boggling array of variables to be juggled.
There certainly are. And that's why it's so difficult to have a reasonable discussion with a skeptic who declares victory if they can cite a plausible sounding argument confronting one small piece of the climate science puzzle.
I've been tracking the climate change issue closely for about 15 years. I'm NOT a scientist, but I understand the scientific method well enough to know not to place all my faith in any one report, study, or hypothesis. I'm on a number of list serves that keep me up to date on the latest developments in climate science, and that includes the rare study that runs counter to previous assertions of climate doom and gloom.
Just today, for example, I read a report from NOAA, I believe, that states that climate change will NOT bring about an increase in hurricane frequency, although it MAY mean that those we do have are more intense and bring with them more rain. Hurricanes have remained an especially fuzzy part of climate change science, and you may note that I've avoided mentioning them in any of my lists of climate-related problems to come.
The irony there is that the general public didn't really start paying attention to climate change in the U.S. until Katrina hit. We're a crisis driven society. That got everyone's attention. Never mind that there is no possible way with current climate science to state with any certainty that Katrina's existence or intensity had anything to do with climate change. At least people starting thinking and talking about it.
As you note, climate science is incredibly complex. No one scientist, much less individual, can legitimately claim to fully understand all of it. What has led the scientific community to collectively embrace the concept that human activity IS playing a significant role in a changing climate is mostly captured by two related observations.
First, we've experienced a sudden increase in CO2 and Methane in the atmosphere
over the last century and a half, and the only way that makes sense is to factor in the human element. As far back as we're able to measure, currently 800,000 years, a warm climate and high concentrations of greenhouse gasses have been closely correlated.
Second, and closely related, is that no model has been able to predict our observed changes WITHOUT factoring in human activity. If you know anything about scientific models, you know that the perfect model has yet to be produced. They're only as good as their design and data permit, so no one model should be believed completely. But a wide range of models by a wide range of modelers have that one thing in common: they can only duplicate our current climate by incorporating human activities.
Yes, there are undoubtedly variables we'll learn about that we don't already grasp. Only recently have we started to understand the important role oceans play in CO2 transfer. Scientists couldn't figure out where all the extra CO2 was going that we knew had been produced but couldn't be accounted for in the atmosphere. It was found in the oceans, which it turns out absorb a great deal of CO2, but are nearing their saturation point, at least in surface waters.
And THAT raises another potential problem: it takes an extraordinary number of years for ocean water to cycle from the deepest depths to the surface and back. I can't remember the number, but it's over a thousand years. The water we're now sending to the depths has exceptionally high CO2 content. What that may mean to ocean ecosystems this century and in the centuries to come we honestly don't know, but we do know we're changing an important part of the seawater composition, and it seems reasonable to assume that will bring about other changes that may well not be good.
I've noted several things during my 15 years of tracking this issue. First, it's worth mentioning that I didn't start believing strongly in the human contribution to climate change until about five years ago. That's when the collective weight of the science seemed to pass the point where any other explanation was plausible, at least to me.
I've also noted that everything seems to keep happening faster than predicted. The loss of icepack is the most notable example of this. And the predictions keep leaning toward the more extreme of what a few years ago was a wide range of options.
Your closing statement is worth repeating:
We have much to gain by taking the kind of steps that are being suggested to reduce global warming, and very much to lose by not doing so, regardless of whether the research and conclusions currently being presented turn out to be exactly correct . . .
Dave | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/21/2008 5:17:07 AM | hello Dave...your comment about more Co2 and Methane..my outlook on that..
Archeologists are constantly seeking to find remnants of past civilizations and some of the easiest sites to find are garbage dumps..We basically live on the organic material that has died,some of it we use for what it releases..like coal,oil...the earth builds on this stuff because it eventually decays and sinks back into the earth...as far as my weird thinking goes,we live on earth which is a garbage dump,in plain words,and mankind is making garbage at an increasingly alarming rate,some of it cannot ever decompose,but most,being originally living material,will decompose. And the ramifications of all this garbage,is that it does release gases as it decomposes...same as animal farts..it's all a matter of decomposing material...so,as the population increases and particularly in countries that consume more,there will be more gases released because of the volumes of waste it releases...our earth is a stinking orb...it is a huge garbage dump and we are not taking the necessary steps to take care of this waste and how it decomposes and of course the air above us is going to be affected by it...we are consumers and at the other end,comes the waste products...of course,what else can we do with it except pollute the other planets by removal into space...we have to stop making junk that doesn't decompose and we should be harnessing the waste products,such as methane and all the other "poisonous gases" that are eliminated in the decomposing stage...farmers use animal manure on their fields,and many countries use human waste to provide nutrients back to the soil,but that is natural and we,in our craze for cleanliness,frown on the old ideas..I have never understood why humans defecate in the water they drink...instead of putting excrement into the soil,where it should be...so,this excrement and its by products are mixed into our lakes and eventually the ocean and decompose there...garbage,waste,is the big problem in this world and the decomposition of it...where to put it?...and there doesn't seem to be any more common sense left here anymore... | |
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| Over weight people now blamed for global warming! ! !
Posted: 5/21/2008 10:04:29 AM | When even a respected magazine like Discover has a major article on it you know the world is full of "the sky is falling" pseudo-scientists who have managed to get degrees in idiocy and lunacy and minors in conspiracy theories.
Oh and we are killing the bears. God people grow up the Polar bears are at highest levels since records were kept on them in 1972. You sit and watch TV and just become parrots. There is just as many expert saying there is no such thing as Global warming. But here again I well point out the big facts. All the people who donated to the eco-greenies where has all your BILLIONS gone to the rich fat cats. NO SOLUTIONS. If it from Fossil fuel where is the replacement. Come on instead of wasting Billions on proving Global warming is real how about doing some real work and find real soilution and don't give me the solar wind nonsense anyone with half a brain knows it takes $30- 50 thousands to set up one home and even then your still won't have enough power. Come on Real solution we know the Greenies just want your money to pass useless laws protecting polar bears instead of real soltuions. | |
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