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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 4:14:01 AM |
Aspiring angel I have no clue where you get your negative ideas from but abused people are not the one to blame. You are a candidate for defending abusers. Not good. Did you read all the testimonies on here about how these women have been abused. Your saying they are to blame and have low self esteem? This is why I feel everyone needs to be educated about abuse. Your only making the problem worse by blaming the abused. Please read everything you can about abuse. You really need to know the facts.
Your need to blame someone is obvious in the quoted post. You blame me for condoning abusers, when I've done no such thing. You have neatly projected your feelings about abusers on my post. I think this is demonstrative of your ongoing struggle with the issue.
My need to know the facts has been resolved. I think I've explained my rationale adequately and will leave this thread with the hope that someone; maybe you; will absorb at least a little of what I've said and take it to heart.
As for reading the testimonies, yes, I have. I see the difference in the thinking pattern of vicitims and survivors. Do you?
Best Wishes ~ | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:41:50 AM |
Can the abused love the abuser and not be in their lives? Or should they just let the love die and try to forget the person all together? I think that is the abused person loves the one who has been abusive to them, then it is an act of love to remove themselves from the situation. By staying in the situation, the target of the abuse is enabling the abuser to be abusive, to behave in a negative, unhealthy and destructive fashion: that is how the abuser relates to them. The most loving thing they can do for the abusive person is to remove themselves so that the abuser cannot continue this negative behaviour.
I feel that this argument is one of the ones that is not suggested strongly or frequently enough to abused people. The typical response is actually kind of mystifying to me: it goes along the lines of: "you are unhappy because this person is being mean to you; you are allowing them to be mean to you; why don't you get some self esteem and pull yourself together". It totally lacks recognition that for someone to be abused their self esteem has to have been destroyed already. What motivation does a person who does not care about themselves have to improve their situation; what possible step can a person who believes themselves to be worthless take that is going to magically create self esteem. They don't really care what happens to them, they just want to do something right so that they can stop being punished. Having someone else come along and basically bash them and tell them they are flawed, broken, because they haven't got enough self esteem only cements the belief of how pathetic and deserving of abuse they are. Especially when fixing this problem is so completely out of reach. It actually supports what the abuser is doing.
The argument that you would be best advised to remove yourself from X's life because X is always so angry with you, it seems like nothing you do is right for him and you seem cause him to behave in ways that are very bad for a human being to behave is one that is more likely to get a result, to my mind -- if fits with the pattern of doing stuff in order to try to benefit the abuser and loving the abuser, not themselves. It can also be pointed out that other people do appreciate the stuff they do for them and it would be better to spend their time giving to people who count it as something positive in their lives rather than someone who can't help but be angry with them all the time. Self esteem is much harder to build and comes very gradually and a lot later.
Just my opinion. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 8:09:47 AM | This is only my opinion, but i don't think there is any hope for abusive people. I think that the training we give them in life skills, anger management, addictions training, etc... only makes them smarter at what they do. As a former life skills coach i seen the wheels turning on these offenders and seen them abuse others using the very tools that were given to them to understand themselves and the issues they are going through. I think there should be a three strikes your out like any other crime.
The only hope is isolation. Or simply learning that certain behaviours will not be tolerated. If the deterrent is strong enough they that they won't cross that line. The problem is a lot of behaviours associated with abuse are actually valued in business and politics. I think as long as our society values these behaviours in one way they will not be able to stop the fall out on the home front. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 8:15:33 AM |
why isn't there more help for abusers?
Why do you think there isn't?
In order to deal effectively with being an abuser, one has to first recognize they ARE an abuser. 99% of them don't realize this; they're arrogant, self-absorbed and think they're superior to everyone. You can't help someone who doesn't believe they need help. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:16:32 AM | Rune i agree with you 100%. That is why I was saying to aspiring angel that her thinking contributes to the problem. SHe feels empowered bacause she fought off 2 abusers and there for she somehow is a survivor and the rest of us are pitifull victums because we don't beat the crap out of the abuser. Fighting can often make the abuser mader and he may resort to knives guns etc. No amount of strength can ward that off. I worked with a girl years ago who was young and strong and outspoken like aspiring angel and fiesty as well. She condemned me for coming to work with black eyes and said she would never let any man do that to her. She would beat the crap out of him. That I was asking for it if I did not defend myself. I knew she did not have the experience to back up her words so I let it go. Not even 2 weeks later, I believe God saw fit to open her eyes. She came to work with black eyes and bruses all over her. Her boyfriend beat her really bad. She could not stop his abuse because he over powered her big time. She appoligized to me profusely over and over again. She had no idea what it was like till she experienced it for her self. That is why people need to be educated and watch movies like sleeping with the enemy, or the burning bed, or a ton of other movies on spousal abuse. You may be able to fight back but most times you won't be able to. When abuser see they are losing their control over their victim they often end up killing them and sometimes the kids too and themselves.
Side note to the one who did research on my town and the murders of wifes. I made a mistake. I meant to say my county. And your comment "it was only 7 in the last 3 yrs' is sad because 1 is one to many. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:24:31 AM | | Your right crazylifting. I wish more people would stand up against abuse and the system that condones it, and does not enforce stronger deterents against abuse. Its almost like poor guy he works hard and his wife is probably nagging him and he is so sick of it he has to beat her to shut her up. That is the thinking of the good ole boys. In the legal system as well as on the outside. Women deserve it because they must of done something to get the man angry. Give me a freaking break. I personally do not believe in putting my hands on another human being for any reason. Unless its for a loving affectionate reason like hugs, kisses, etc. For centuries men have gotten away with being abusive to their wifes. And we all know the reason for that. I don't even have to say it. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:39:43 AM | Thanks to Dudley & Silk for bringing in the issue of abusive women. Its good to see one-sided gender threads get straightened out.
OP, you ask if there is hope. See above. One of the first things to realize is that it takes two. Both the abuser and abused have to work together to end the cycle.
Abuse counselors speak of tactics. Control is the core desire, but it is the tactics that generate the hurt. There are categories of tactics, including sexual, physical. emotional, psychological, financial, Obfuscation, etc.
Both the controller and the controlled use these abusive tactics!!!! And many times the two individuals will switch roles depending on the circumstances. The controller uses abusive tactics to gain control, to exert authority. The controlled one uses similar (sometimes worse!) abusive tactics to evade their control, counter-control, and shift the issues.
Is there hope? Yes, but it is a case-by-case problem that can only be solved with understanding and education. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:47:55 AM | Abuse is normal for kids. It is how kids try getting their way. This is why we pay professionals to raise our children. Behind closed doors and out of our sight the Nanny can knock that idea right out of their little heads.
In adult relationships abuse is exactly the same as what kids do, and the abuser does it because they don't know a better way. When you teach a person the better way, they adopt it and that ends the abuse.
The reason it is so common is because it is taught at home growing up without anyone stepping in to correct it. Except now, more and more you have society stepping in to correct the problem. In a generation or two it will be much less common. Today there are still plenty of adults who grew up wrong, and they go find a relationship that works like what they know from growing up.
Anyone who wants to get help with it can do so, and learning about it only takes reading a few books and articles, or taking classes, or talking with people who explain it in counseling or support groups. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:56:09 AM | | I have found time and time again the men who agree that too many women are abused and not cry fowl and want their side heard about women abuse are living in reality. They are shamed of their fellow men who do such things to women. They admit its much more previlent with men then women. Men are more agressive so there for it goes without saying men are going to be more abusive and more cases of abuse. No one said Women can't be abusive. The chances of them being out of control and beating their mate are slim. Its just a fact of life that men are more abusive than women. Yes women kill their kids. these are mentally ill people. they hear voices. Are unstable. We are talking about men who know what they are doing and get away with it everyday. Real men will admit that there are more men then women who are abusive and will defend women. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 9:56:22 AM | ^^^ I think that unless you have been there yourself it really is hard to understand.
Something that I think is a common misconception is that abuse happens to those who are weak. I think the opposite is true. If a person is weak then they do not endure anything, they crumple, scream "help me help me" "poor me!" to anyone who will listen. The people who get abused, like the people who get bullied, are the ones who do not crumble at the first bit of trouble, who do not go running for help, who do not present any risk of fallout to the abuser/bully.
Bullies are perceived to pick on those who will not fight back and the common misconception is that they are targeting the weak, when they are often targeting the more mature, responsible children who will not lose control and have a screaming fit and run to the teacher or lash out at the bully, but who are mature and strong enough that they can endure a certain amount of poor treatment. In the workplace, the bullying boss is safe to bully the stoic, steadfast, enduring character and will not risk bullying the weak, hysterical person who would not be capable of enduring any slight negative treatment without having a massive dramatic episode and causing the boss a lot of hassle. The ones bullied at work tend to be the quiet stoic workers who endure huge amounts of pressure and just get on with their job as best they can, even if at times their colleagues may see that they are being put under insane amounts of stress.
Abusers are just bullies really. You cannot abuse a weak person, they just fall to pieces after one episode and they will be too afraid or too upset to come back. The people I know who have been abused over longer periods tend to be particularly strong and loving men and women who can and will endure a lot and also have unselfish, self-sacrificing natures and the strength to still want to give to others even when pushed to the brink.
The abused person is unlikely to be able to believe anything positive about themselves. The abuser tends to isolate them so that the voice they mainly get to hear is that of the abuser, who will be very convincing in making the abused person feel that they are to blame for everything that is happening. This is why abuse sustains, in my opinion: the target is a person who can endure a lot, who takes responsibility for what happens to them, but believes that who has been led to believe that they deserve everything that they are enduring. I know that I have not met anyone who had been targeted for bullying whom did not have a maturity beyond their years and what might be called an inner steel the makes you know you can give that person a big push (emotionally) and they'll not keel over or flake out.
The kind of people who can be led to believe that they deserve poor treatment do have a low opinion of themselves and a tendency to put others before themselves. These are qualities that in a supportive and loving environment do not cause problems, quite the opposite, but do make these people vulnerable when they are more isolated and then exposed to abusive types. Any of us could be convinced of almost anything if we were exposed over a long period to a person skilled at manipulation. If you don't believe that, you're even more vulnerable. We need to take better care of each other. Abuse is enabled when we allow people to become isolated. I believe that the internet is a wonderful tool for enabling people to reach out and say "hey, my world looks like this" and to get a loud and clear response "that should not be happening to you, it's wrong".
Still just my opinions. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 10:55:49 AM | I have found time and time again the men who agree that too many women are abused and not cry fowl and want their side heard about women abuse are living in reality. They are shamed of their fellow men who do such things to women. They admit its much more previlent with men then women. Men are more agressive so there for it goes without saying men are going to be more abusive and more cases of abuse. No one said Women can't be abusive. The chances of them being out of control and beating their mate are slim. Its just a fact of life that men are more abusive than women. Yes women kill their kids. these are mentally ill people. they hear voices. Are unstable. We are talking about men who know what they are doing and get away with it everyday. Real men will admit that there are more men then women who are abusive and will defend women
You need to be careful here. "Real men" ? Just what are real men? Women can be and are just as abusive as men. Many men are taught from a very early age NOT to hit women. Somehow they end up married to an abusive woman and they get hit by that woman. These men don't hit back. Which seems to be a surprise to many people. Then, of course the woman accuses the husband if abuse.
I don't have all the info......but after my divorce I did a LOT of research on abuse. What I found was in the most severe cases of physical abuse to a woman done by a man......the woman hit first. After so many times of getting hit by the woman the husband hits back and goes to far.
In my case I can still say I have never hit a woman. However, I did divorce her. My ex wife claimed to be abused by her first husband and every man in her life. She wasn't. However, she was abused. But not by the men in her life.
These days because of my experience I am really careful when I hear a woman tell me she was abused by an ex. I know it happens. But I have to ask myself.........was she really abused? Or was she the abusive one and just believes that what she was doing was fine and the treatment she got from her ex was wrong? | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 11:24:37 AM | | I too am a survivor of an abusive relationship- my first & LAST one. After alot of studying & counseling I have learned that the mindset of an abuser is that he feels "entitled" to be abusive. It is all about control & using intimidation & both verbal & physical abuse to control & manipulate. There IS help- but the abuser must gain insight into his problem & want to change. He must be genuinely remorseful . he must grow in understanding of what made him act that way in the first place...generally people who are into control are that way because they are afraid & insecure. In other words, to change, the abuser must come to have great understanding of his motives- not everyone wants to do such work. Recidivison is high for such people, as they cannot lose the need to control- too frightening for them I guess. I have since learned the warning signs of a potential abuser & I hope the one reltionship I had with one, will be the last. No one should have to live through such... | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 11:31:47 AM | | bassman your knee jerk reaction is very common and your not the first to say the things you said and it will continue unfortunatly. What I mean is real men, men that are mature enough to admit and recognize that more women are abused and abused more severly then men ever were now and in the past. Men you are defensive and blame women and say women are abusive too are just trying to cover up the real issues here. Like I said no one is saying women are not abusive. In my life time I may have seen 5 abusive women and maybe 2 that were violent. Verses 100's of men who were abusive in every way possible. Does that mean all men are bad and worthless. heck no. I have 2 sons and a wonderful deceased dad who I love and respect. I know many wonderful loving caring non abusive men. In my experiences with being physically abused the last thing I would ever do is hit the abuser. These men were twice my size and strong as ox's. I would have wrote my death sentence if I hit them first. I am not that stupid. Nor do i believe in hitting anyone. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 11:55:57 AM | Newyorktomboy,
My knee jerk reaction? What would you call this?
bassman your knee jerk reaction is very common and your not the first to say the things you said and it will continue unfortunatly. What I mean is real men, men that are mature enough to admit and recognize that more women are abused and abused more severly then men ever were now and in the past. Men you are defensive and blame women and say women are abusive too are just trying to cover up the real issues here. Like I said no one is saying women are not abusive. In my life time I may have seen 5 abusive women and maybe 2 that were violent. Verses 100's of men who were abusive in every way possible. Does that mean all men are bad and worthless. heck no. I have 2 sons and a wonderful deceased dad who I love and respect. I know many wonderful loving caring non abusive men. In my experiences with being physically abused the last thing I would ever do is hit the abuser. These men were twice my size and strong as ox's. I would have wrote my death sentence if I hit them first. I am not that stupid. Nor do i believe in hitting anyone.
The same difinition can be used to describe a real woman. Because not enough women are willing to admit that they are abusive. Also, not very many men will admit to being abused.
Once you have been married to one for so long you can spot them. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 12:34:21 PM | Abusers know exactly what kind of woman will take the abuse. If she's not already of that mindset, he knows how to make her that way. Isolation, create low self worth, control over the finances etc. Assertiveness training can show a person HOW the other manipulates and what to do about it.
People are plain out attributing statements to me that I never said. I did not say that abused people deserve what they get. I did say that they can change themselves and their behavior because it does CONTRIBUTE to the abuse. That's why they keep finding themselves in the same situation over and over and over. Because their pattern of thinking remains the same and the abusive cycle begins anew. They have no idea sometimes how they came to care so little for themselves or to feel so badly about themselves. Guess what? I know how. They don't have the control, the abuser does. IF one were to recognise when someone else manipulating or trying to beat them into a corner (i.e. finances, isolation...) then they could stop it. IF they never learn, the pattern comes back time and again. Which is what the OP was talking about in her first post.
Is this blaming the abused? NO, it isn't condoning it either. Anyone who thinks it is has a reading comprehension problem. The way to change the pattern is to recognise it and change how you react to it.
Can an abuser change? Who knows and I personally wont stick around long enough to find out. I heard the "baby I love you, it'll never happen again. I don't know what came over me, I'm so sorry." Yeah, you bet you're sorry = it's over.
Cycle broken.
He had isolated me from my family and friends. Acted like a jealous jerk anytime someone looked at me. Kept a wrap on our financial situation, slapped me when I hid my own money from him so he wouldn't drink it away. (that was the first abuse). We didn't have a phone, I didn't have a car and I felt so bad about myself I couldn't hardly function. We fought about having a baby because I felt we couldn't afford one. So I kept taking the pill. All hell broke loose when he figured that out. I must not love him enough, right? Then He suggested it's because I must be cheating on him. So, I felt I had to go off the pill.
But that day he beat me - something just snapped. There was no way in hell I was putting up with that crap. Assertiveness training? Nope, totally pissed off person. I thought, I might be ugly and fat and probably lazy but I don't deserve this, NO ONE deserves this! I didn't care if he beat me more, I was not going to just stand there and take it.
Listen, you can deny all you want to the behavioral situations involved here. It does take two people for this cycle to happen over and over. The sooner people see that, the better.
Personally I have better things to do with my life than to sit here and be accused of this bull. You have a need to blame someone? Fine. It wont be me you're blaming LOL. I lived it, learned and took my ball home.
You want to keep your "stinking thinking?" Be my guest.
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 1:27:52 PM |
Something that I think is a common misconception is that abuse happens to those who are weak. I think the opposite is true. If a person is weak then they do not endure anything, they crumple, scream "help me help me" "poor me!" to anyone who will listen. The people who get abused, like the people who get bullied, are the ones who do not crumble at the first bit of trouble, who do not go running for help, who do not present any risk of fallout to the abuser/bully.
Bullies are perceived to pick on those who will not fight back and the common misconception is that they are targeting the weak, when they are often targeting the more mature, responsible children who will not lose control and have a screaming fit and run to the teacher or lash out at the bully, but who are mature and strong enough that they can endure a certain amount of poor treatment. In the workplace, the bullying boss is safe to bully the stoic, steadfast, enduring character and will not risk bullying the weak, hysterical person who would not be capable of enduring any slight negative treatment without having a massive dramatic episode and causing the boss a lot of hassle. The ones bullied at work tend to be the quiet stoic workers who endure huge amounts of pressure and just get on with their job as best they can, even if at times their colleagues may see that they are being put under insane amounts of stress.
Abusers are just bullies really. You cannot abuse a weak person, they just fall to pieces after one episode and they will be too afraid or too upset to come back. The people I know who have been abused over longer periods tend to be particularly strong and loving men and women who can and will endure a lot and also have unselfish, self-sacrificing natures and the strength to still want to give to others even when pushed to the brink.
The abused person is unlikely to be able to believe anything positive about themselves. The abuser tends to isolate them so that the voice they mainly get to hear is that of the abuser, who will be very convincing in making the abused person feel that they are to blame for everything that is happening. This is why abuse sustains, in my opinion: the target is a person who can endure a lot, who takes responsibility for what happens to them, but believes that who has been led to believe that they deserve everything that they are enduring. I know that I have not met anyone who had been targeted for bullying whom did not have a maturity beyond their years and what might be called an inner steel the makes you know you can give that person a big push (emotionally) and they'll not keel over or flake out.
The kind of people who can be led to believe that they deserve poor treatment do have a low opinion of themselves and a tendency to put others before themselves. These are qualities that in a supportive and loving environment do not cause problems, quite the opposite, but do make these people vulnerable when they are more isolated and then exposed to abusive types. Any of us could be convinced of almost anything if we were exposed over a long period to a person skilled at manipulation. If you don't believe that, you're even more vulnerable. We need to take better care of each other. Abuse is enabled when we allow people to become isolated. I believe that the internet is a wonderful tool for enabling people to reach out and say "hey, my world looks like this" and to get a loud and clear response "that should not be happening to you, it's wrong".
Still just my opinions.
WOW Rune... Stand up and take a bow girl! 
If I could, I would post BOTH of your posts here in every transition house I could find! Your insight and comprehension of this issue are astounding!
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 2:05:00 PM |
Something that I think is a common misconception is that abuse happens to those who are weak. I think the opposite is true. If a person is weak then they do not endure anything, they crumple, scream "help me help me" "poor me!" to anyone who will listen. The people who get abused, like the people who get bullied, are the ones who do not crumble at the first bit of trouble, who do not go running for help, who do not present any risk of fallout to the abuser/bully.
Bullies are perceived to pick on those who will not fight back and the common misconception is that they are targeting the weak, when they are often targeting the more mature, responsible children who will not lose control and have a screaming fit and run to the teacher or lash out at the bully, but who are mature and strong enough that they can endure a certain amount of poor treatment. In the workplace, the bullying boss is safe to bully the stoic, steadfast, enduring character and will not risk bullying the weak, hysterical person who would not be capable of enduring any slight negative treatment without having a massive dramatic episode and causing the boss a lot of hassle. The ones bullied at work tend to be the quiet stoic workers who endure huge amounts of pressure and just get on with their job as best they can, even if at times their colleagues may see that they are being put under insane amounts of stress.
Abusers are just bullies really. You cannot abuse a weak person, they just fall to pieces after one episode and they will be too afraid or too upset to come back. The people I know who have been abused over longer periods tend to be particularly strong and loving men and women who can and will endure a lot and also have unselfish, self-sacrificing natures and the strength to still want to give to others even when pushed to the brink.
The abused person is unlikely to be able to believe anything positive about themselves. The abuser tends to isolate them so that the voice they mainly get to hear is that of the abuser, who will be very convincing in making the abused person feel that they are to blame for everything that is happening. This is why abuse sustains, in my opinion: the target is a person who can endure a lot, who takes responsibility for what happens to them, but believes that who has been led to believe that they deserve everything that they are enduring. I know that I have not met anyone who had been targeted for bullying whom did not have a maturity beyond their years and what might be called an inner steel the makes you know you can give that person a big push (emotionally) and they'll not keel over or flake out.
The kind of people who can be led to believe that they deserve poor treatment do have a low opinion of themselves and a tendency to put others before themselves. These are qualities that in a supportive and loving environment do not cause problems, quite the opposite, but do make these people vulnerable when they are more isolated and then exposed to abusive types. Any of us could be convinced of almost anything if we were exposed over a long period to a person skilled at manipulation. If you don't believe that, you're even more vulnerable. We need to take better care of each other. Abuse is enabled when we allow people to become isolated. I believe that the internet is a wonderful tool for enabling people to reach out and say "hey, my world looks like this" and to get a loud and clear response "that should not be happening to you, it's wrong".
Still just my opinions.
Rune3,
I agree with most of what you are saying here. I would add that in some cases these people don't even realize they are being abused until something happens in their life and they are forced to look back at how they have been treated by the abuser for so long. I don't mean physical abuse....but all other types. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 2:15:27 PM |
I agree with most of what you are saying here. I would add that in some cases these people don't even realize they are being abused until something happens in their life and they are forced to look back at how they have been treated by the abuser for so long. I don't mean physical abuse....but all other types. bassman, I agree with this: this is actually what I meant by them being convinced that they "deserve it" whilst the abuse is ongoing. The abuser portrays their behaviour as a natural and fair response to the way the target is, so the target accepts that they are to blame for the treatment they're receiving and don't perceive it as abuse, but as being reasonable. Sometimes, the point where it escalates to physical is the point where they realise, "I don't deserve this, no-one does.." and 'wake up'. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 2:20:06 PM | This thread has been niggling at me all day and it has been really hard to get to the source of why it bothers me so much. So many people have touched on little pieces of it but some how it misses the point. While it is true that the abused and abuser are in a relationship it can't be logically deduced that if the abused were only different the abuser would have no targets. Abusers abuse and they are cunning and manipulative to getting a certain type of person to the state where they can abuse them. What is interesting is that the relationship does not start out that way, but the abused is groomed to be a victim.
I think that the abuser is more interested in possessing the strength of the person they are grooming and when they cannot possess that which they desire the abuse starts. It is like trying to capture or possess the essence of a person but when that essence is extinguished by the act of trying to possess things escalate.
So while some will say that a person needs to change so they are not a target i completely disagree. The opposite is true. To quote my favorate quote by Jiddu Krishnamurti
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society". The abused shouldn't be bullied into changing, it is the sickness of the abuser that should be challenged. Why should compassionate understanding people be conditioned into being 'assertive' selfish beings (have so called self esteem)? I think abused people or people who find themselves being abused need to understand the mind of an abuser and be able to spot the signs sooner so they can remove themselves from the cycle but i don't think they need to change.
I didn't believe that i would ever be in another relationship till i met rune3. why? because i seen myself as to different then others. It wasn't that i didn't have people interested in being my partner, however they wanted to possess me instead of partner with me. A sure sign of future abuse that I understood from previous relationships. It is difficult when people are not in touch with themselves because they loose the valuable tool of seeing into people because they cannot see into themselves. They are open to being manipulated because they have manipulated themselves into being something they are not. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 2:39:14 PM |
I agree with this: this is actually what I meant by them being convinced that they "deserve it" whilst the abuse is ongoing. The abuser portrays their behaviour as a natural and fair response to the way the target is, so the target accepts that they are to blame for the treatment they're receiving and don't perceive it as abuse, but as being reasonable. Sometimes, the point where it escalates to physical is the point where they realise, "I don't deserve this, no-one does.." and 'wake up'.
Yes, It's nice to read something written by someone that understands. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 3:20:58 PM |
I don't think if your abused as a kid you become an abuser, In my eyes you would know how this felt and would never do it.
Actually, any psychotherapist would tell you you're absolutely wrong. Most abusers were abused in their youth. Common sense might suggest that, having experience abuse in your youth, you would recognize it and avoid it. That's the further thing from the truth.
Ever hear stories about women who grow up with alcoholic fathers who wind up married to, guess who, another alcoholic. Common sense has nothing to do with. On the contrary, you would think that's the last thing a woman raised by an alcoholic father would want but that's simply not the case. Most of these woman retain childhood fantasies about "helping" their father. But as a young child, you really can't do that so, what's the next best thing? As an adult, go find some other alcoholic to "help".
Abusers, like every other "problem" person, can't be helped unless and until they're ready, willing and able to get help. There's no magic there. I'd say the vast majority of abusers were abused in their formative years. They do it out of insecurity and need to "control" as the other poster pointed out.
If you have found yourself to be the subject of repeated abuse, RUN, don't walk, to the nearest exit. Regardless of any noble intentions you may have, you CAN NOT CHANGE HIM/HER. You CAN NOT "FIX" HIM/HER. You're not in any position to do that. They're the only ones who can change. You're the only one who's going to suffer by staying there. Get out now.
Believe it or not, there are many relationships out there that thrive on abuse. One partner (for whatever sick reason) needs to abuse, and the other partner (for whatever sick reason) needs abuse. There are many such symbiotic relationships like that out there. It doesn't mean they're healthy (because they're not) and they often wind up extremely violently. The reason they sustain is because each person's needs are being met (of course these are extremely neurotic needs). One needs to whip (or so they think) and the other one needs to be whipped (or so they think). That's what symbiosis is all about. There are those kinds of symbiotic relationships all over the place out there if you just look. Dope dealers need junkies in the same way (although for different reasons) and junkies need their pusher.
Aspiring angel I have no clue where you get your negative ideas from but abused people are not the one to blame. You are a candidate for defending abusers. Not good.
You're completely not understanding what Aspiring said. Abused people are HALF the ones to be blamed simply because they TAKE IT! If they had enough sense of self, they'd never stand for it. So to the extent they hang around for yet more abuse, who's fault is that?
Your only making the problem worse by blaming the abused.
Well, if you're the abused one here, then by staying in an abusive situation, you are to blame. How is it you don't see that? Most people have the good sense to come in out of the rain. No one is saying the abused is the only one at fault. As I said above, the abuser also has fault (if you want to use the word "fault"). But we're talking about YOU and not the abuser. The abuser needs to be told other things like, get help.
I stood up, punched his worthless ass in the face as hard as I could and kept on hitting. He ran out the door, which I promptly locked and that was it. OVER finito' gone!
That sound you hear is the sound of applause :).
People who keep finding themselves in abusive situations need to change themselves. [/quote[ Exactly right. People, on a subconscious level) who feel they deserve abuse (without their fully understanding or recognizing it) unconsciously SEEK abusers. I'm not saying they're aware of it because they're not. But you don't just routinely "wind up" with abusers. It just doesn't happen unless you're seeking them out. Assertive and Aggressive are NOT the same thing. They're as different as night and day. I love assertive women but aggressive women turn me off instantly. An assertive person will "keep at it" under adversity until they finally achieve their goals and never compromise themselves. An aggressive person will beat you over the head until they get what they want. LOL. There's a huge difference....subtle perhaps, but profound nonetheless. Your right crazylifting. I wish more people would stand up against abuse Uh, isn't that just what Aspiring said??? And for that you're criticizing HER? So while some will say that a person needs to change so they are not a target i completely disagree. The opposite is true. To quote my favorate quote by Jiddu Krishnamurti
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society". The abused shouldn't be bullied into changing, it is the sickness of the abuser that should be challenged. I think you're misinterpreting what he said. Ok. Here's a simplistic example of what he's saying. Let's say woman "A" is a basically good person who, for whatever reason hooks up with an abusive personality. If that woman "A" immediately leaves because she's been abused, she doesn't need any change other than removing herself from that abusive relationship. What we're talking about here are the people who constantly "wind up" with abusive SOs. There is something in their nature that they DO need to change - their self image. They need a big dose of self esteem. There's an old Henny Youngman joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says "doctor, every time I hit myself over the head with a hammer, it hurts me". To which the doctor said "well, stop doing it". 'Nuff said. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 3:29:25 PM | The person being abused need only get away. That's their job. Don't take it. Leave.
The person who gets left has the job of changing how they treat others. They have to learn a good way to act, because how they act sucks.
The reason victims stay and become volunteers is because they don't know how to handle abuse. The way to handle abuse is to get away from it.
It's only complicated and mysterious if you delve into the twisted thinking that abusers and victims have. Otherwise it is straightforward and obvious. | |
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| Why are there so many abusive people, and is there hope for them?
Posted: 5/19/2008 3:35:18 PM | I think it's very sad that with all the help available to people these days, the abused don't seek it and the abuser never sees the problem as theirs. If you have never been a exposed to a loving kind relationship how on earth do you expect to get one?
My parents have been married 46 years always talk things out and respect each other. Their idea of discipline was to discuss the wrong doing with the child and either take away a privilege or give you a nasty chore to do. You always knew who was grounded in my house, they had either cat box detail or keeping the pool clean for a week. Anger was dealt with by hard work or calm discourse.
My Ex's family screamed, hit and belittled each other. So as adults they all have trouble relating to co-workers, neighbors and of course their mates. What was not evident when he and I were 20 became an insurmountable obstacle at 40 as life's pressures built so did his temper. He had no clue how to defuse it because he'd never learned. | |
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